got me thinking about our very own man in the middle. Apparently, New Orleans and Charlotte are talking about a deal sending Emeka Okafor to the Big Easy, and Tyson Chandler back east to the Bobcats. After the jump, we'll throw Sammy into the discussion as well and see where he ranks among these bigs.
Let me start by saying I'm shocked that New Orleans is even considering this trade. They tried to give Chandler away for two expiring contracts a few months ago, now they're willing to take back $62M over five years in a deal for the same player? The only notable change between then and now is the lowering of the cap numbers and the impending doom of a further drop next season. I'm still scratching my head.
Let's forget about New Orleans' about face for a second, though, and compare the players. ESPN has retooled their trade machine to include on-the-fly calculations using John Hollinger's PER to predict the gained and lost wins from both sides in a trade, so let's take a look at how
this one shakes out. Charlotte supposedly loses 6 wins, while New Orleans gains 5. Personally, I don't think the deal will have that great of an impact unless Chandler's injury woes continue. Since we have this tool at our disposal, though, let's take a look at what the machine would say about
the same swap between Philly and Charlotte. Plus 5 wins for the Sixers, minus 7 for the Bobcats.
So clearly, Hollinger thinks Okafor is the best of the three, and I'm not going to say he's wrong, definitively, but I think this exercise does highlight the main shortcoming of PER as a be-all-end-all metric. Basically, the more you shoot, the more valuable you are, according to PER, so long as you don't shoot unbelievably inefficiently.
Let's look at the players
side-by-
side-by-
side. Forget the cumulative numbers, we're better than that by now. Let's take a look at the advanced numbers and the per/36 minute numbers. A couple things become obvious very quickly.
- Okafor is the most talented scorer of the trio, not by a wide margin, but he was more efficient. His team also gave him more shots to work with, which makes sense.
- All three players are/were excellent rebounders. Sammy was the best last season, but they've jockeyed back and forth.
- Sammy is the best shot blocker, by a wide margin
- Okafor takes the best care of the ball (by TO%). Both Dalembert and Chandler cough the ball up way too much. Okafor isn't great with the ball, but he's clearly the best of the three.
All told, these are three very similar players. Dalembert is about 18 months older than the other guys, although Chandler has been in the league the longest. Sammy has been the most durable over the past three seasons, although Okafor has put together back-to-back injury-free seasons. If I had to rank them, I'd say Okafor is the best, followed by Sammy and then Chandler, but here's the thing. Ostensibly, they're the same player. You get small advantages with one over the other in different categories, but when you boil it down, they're all defensive centers with limited offensive games who rebound very well. I don't think one has a higher ceiling than any of the others, they've all been in the league long enough to be what they are, for the most part.
Here are the only two differences I could come up with. 1) Okafor has never been a problem off the court. He's regarded as a solid citizen. 2) Chandler and Dalembert are nearing the end of their big contracts, while Okafor is just beginning his.
My gut reaction earlier was that I'd definitely do the trade if Okafor was offered to the Sixers for Dalembert, and I probably still would, but here's the question. Sammy and Chandler are both considered by most to be bad signings. If you asked the average fan, or even most GMs, they'd tell you neither guy was worth the money. So what are people going to be saying about Okafor in 3 years when he has 2 seasons left on his deal for north of $28M? I say I'd still do the trade because I believe centers who can rebound and defend are worth big contracts, but to those who believe Dalembert and Chandler are overpaid, isn't a 31 year-old Okafor for $15M going to be an insane contract?
New Orleans, for all intents and purposes, is getting a minor upgrade at the position, at the same age, for so much more money. I guess they could say Chandler's injuries lower his value to them, just as the Sixers could say Sammy's histrionics make him unpalatable at $25M over the next two seasons, but still, is this trade really worth it?
Financially speaking, the Hornets were willing to take nothing back, ZERO, for Chandler back in February. Now they're taking on a similar player for an extra 3 years who essentially plays the same game and is only
4 days younger. I just don't get it.
Then again, the rumors could be false, but it's the summer and there's very little to write/rant about so have at it in the comments. What would you guys do, Sammy for 2 more years then let him expire or commit to Okafor through 2014 (the year after Brand's deal expires)?
Very well put Brian, as this deal made no sense to me either. The Thunder were turned off by Chandler over a toe issue, and it makes me wonder about Charlotte. I guess trading away money could make it easier to sell the Bobcats.
Maybe the Hornets have another deal in mind with OKC? I could Okafor fitting in well next to Durant, Green, and Westbrook.
Can the Thunder put a package together that would mean immediate savings for NO? I just can't figure this one out from any angle.
Not sure if Krstic would get it done, but he is only signed for two more seasons at around 5 mill per. Thunder does hold a huge trade chip in the un-protected Suns 2010 first round pick, but that will more than likely be kept.
Well I'd say Chandler's better than Dalembert, though of course a lot of that one good year was Paul. Benefits of playing alongside the world's best point guard aside, Chandler pulled down 12 boards a game for 2 years straight before his headcase season last year, and he's way more of a threat in transition than Dalembert. Much more efficient too, probably because Chandler doesn't have delusions about being able to shoot from beyond 6 feet and Dalembert does. Put it this way, Larry Brown would never sign off in a thousand years on an Okafor-for-Dalembert swap. And rightly so.
The Brown thing comes down to the title of this post, because on paper Dalembert is a safer bet than Chandler, whose physical killed a deal in Feb. He also only grabbed 12 boards/game once. And their efficiency numbers weren't that far off. I'll take Dalembert's superior shot blocking ability over a couple of percentage point in TS when we're essentially comparing two defensive centers.
You wouldn't call 11.8 12? How about this, over two seasons he averaged 12.1 a game. I haven't seen the TS but on just raw field goal percentage Chandler shot 7 points higher last year, the two years before that he shot 60-plus.
He also shoots under 60% from the line for his career, which takes away from his efficiency. Like I said, they both take so few shots that a few percentage points either way doesn't make a whole lot of difference, offense is not what you're paying them for. Neither of them really helps or hurts you, on paper, on the offensive side. Pretty much garbage men on offense.
Yeah, maybe all the Sportscenter highlights have gotten in my head, but I'd call Chandler a super-garbage man and Dalembert a so-so garbage man (bad hands, not the greatest offensive rebounder) who still doesn't get that offensively he's garbage.
Fair assessment.
there are also some of the things that the numbers don't say. if i do recall correctly, chandler is better than sam at hedging the pick and roll. if chandler is healthy though, no one really propels themselves to the top. yet another big name, this has no point kind of trade.
The money NO would be committing is just crazy. I still can't believe it.
There is a real possibility NO is banking on a 2011 lockout. They save 2 mil in the short term and are betting for help from the league later. Unfortunately that probably isn't the world's worst bet ...
That's possible, but I'm not sure what kind of help they're hoping for. Last time, each team got 1 get out of jail free card, meaning they could jettison one contract that would no longer count against the cap (but they still had to pay the contract out). Maybe they'd be hoping they could unload Okafor at that point, or maybe they're hoping the season is canceled? Who knows. I just don't understand the complete 180 for not that much of an upgrade. Oh well.
Maybe a buyout of Stojokovic is in the future or a backdoor ultimatum by Paul, but the Charlotte mindset has me wondering why; just a salary dump? Chandler does nothing better than Okafor and gets hurt alot. I guess Mohammed not being moved has hurt their budget and does this give any creedence to the prior Sam to Charlotte rumour?
Like i said somewhere else, the perception of Sam is that he's not as good as Tyson Chandler. Even though they put up close to equivalent overall numbers on equivalent contracts, Chandler is seen as 'better' than Sam.
Maybe instead of practicing he should be like fat shaq and go on the wwe instead? Would that change the perception?
Doesn't Okafor have back issues?
Can't remember if it was back injuries early in his career, but he hasn't missed a game in a couple seasons, so I'd say he's over them, if that was the case.
Sam has earned some of the bad perception and Chandler did have one excellent season, but overall, I'll take Sam's superior shot blocking, durability and childish behavior over Chandler's injuries and superior scoring efficiency, I guess.
Well talking win shares, basketball reference splits out offense and defense, sam was a defensive win share MACHINE last year (3.4) but Chandler almost doubled Sam's offensive win share numbers.
I have no idea where Okafor fits in - i just didn't look him up (ideally i went for TO%, which on career the two are close but last year sam was god awful and chandler was better) - i've often felt that the only difference between sam and chandler is one of perception - all this really shows us is that GMs aren't really doing their jobs as well as they should be as a whole - cause the differences (actual) between Sam and Chandler are slight whereas the perceived difference is much larger.
Hollinger thinks NO won big time in this deal. Of course, PER says they did so he doesn't really have a choice. I think he's also a little too psyched that they saved $2.2M over the next two seasons, and not upset enough that they're spending $40M in the following three years, but that's just me, I guess.
I just checked 82games.com, here are the defensive numbers for the three players last season (this is the production number for the opposing player guarded by said player)
Okafor: 17.6
Chandler: 16.7
Dalembert: 15.7
DPOY Dwight Howard: 14.2
That's my one biggest beef with Hollinger, he doesn't see beyond his own math - and his math is pretty offensive and box score oriented - the 'new school' of basketball has to move beyond the boxscore and find a way to integrate defensive metrics (and other things) not visible in box score. It's not the same bas baseball and can't be treated the same, and hell even baseball continues to evolve, even if Peter Gammons seems to think OPS is now the be all and end all and really can't see past that.
Try asking peter gammons about BABIP and FIP versus ERA and BAA, you might induce another coronary
That's not fair...it was a stroke, not a heart attack.
Hollinger's bread is buttered by PER, so he has to use it to the exclusion of basically all other metrics, in every column he writes. It's a shame, because I think he's a bright guy.
Brian might enjoy reading this
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/the-underrated-in-2008-09/
Yep, I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, if he's on the team he needs to be on the floor. Dalembert is a net positive for this team, statistically. And if Eddie Jordan can somehow not only get a honeymoon period out of Dalembert, but make it last through next season, the Sixers have a chance at being a top defensive team, thanks in large part to the oft maligned Sammy D.
My only (continued) concern is not only integrating him into this new offense but his dedication to learning it and KNOWING HIS ROLE...not just for the season but for the development of this team under Eddie Jordan.
Well, I am now, and will forever remain a defense-first guy.
Maybe it's as simple as giving Sammy something to do? I mean, what the hell did he do in the old offensive "systems?" Basically, he stood around at the foul line and once in a while caught a lob. Now he'll be setting screens and, hopefully, moving without the ball in these mini-sets that could wind up with an easy look for him. Maybe he thrives in it. Who knows. I'm just ecstatic that he's in the gym working out with the coach in July.
I worry about him and holding on to the ball - his TO% last year was 19.9% - passing is a key part of this system...I'm not getting too excited about him being at the gym until i see something tangible if even during preseason
iggy finally getting credit for something!
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/07/28/072809thomas.teamusa/index.html
If Gay makes the team over Iguodala I'm moving to Canada.
what - you didn't like his nike commercial?
Listening to Billy King on 610 at all? I missed his defense of his tenure, now he's giving baseball trade analysis.
That's awesome. I didn't hear it, wonder if he even tries to defend the contracts he handed out.
Billy King was a worse GM than Ed Wade - that's just sad
My only regret is that I have only six years to give...
A little late, but Dalembert was on the top 20 underrated team.(DBERRI) Anyone see the Sixer on the top 20 Overrated?
Hmm...
and RIP Jim Johnson
I don't know that there has been a coach, whether it be assistant or head coach, in this city over my lifetime I liked as much as Jim. 10 fantastic seasons.
Yup. He's going to be missed.
Hmmn. Scoring bias exposing Thad on that list. Interesting. Can't really argue against his inclusion considering how often I talk about Iguodala being screwed by the scoring bias. Thad needs to round out the other areas of his game, hopefully he'll fill the stat sheet a little more with more minutes at his natural position.
I read that one when it was originally posted - he's on my news reader - just didn't post the link to it :)