HOME TWITTER FACEBOOK RESOURCES ROSTER SCHEDULE ARCHIVES CONTACT TICKETS
Jul 8
2011
2:09 AM

by Rich
turner070811.jpg
The sale is imminent, the lockout is churning on and thankfully, Rich can't be distracted. He's still got his mind on basketball and today he's going to take us on a journey into Evan Turner's offensive game, particularly his play in isolation situations. Enjoy.


We have no idea when or even if the 2011-12 NBA season is going to start. Still, that should be no reason to forget on-court matters and specifically what 76ers players can do to get better. Thanks to My Synergy Sports, we can take a look at many aspects of the game through a statistical and on-court perspective. The first (and definitely most pressing in my opinion) player we are going to look at is Evan Turner, and more specifically his offensive game. I am probably going to do this in multiple posts so different aspects can be highlighted. First, we start with his isolation game. 

I am a well-known optimist when it comes to all matters Evan Turner, although I do agree with Brian that Turner's rookie season was definitely a disappointment. Still, I remain optimistic that he will become a productive player in this league (What that means exactly, I don't know, but a guy we want as a starter in the future).  There are two things that I'd like to say about Turner going forward as well: 1. I think he's a two guard, best suited to play with Jrue and a tall three who can defend and shoot spot-up threes (Dorrell Wright of Golden State is my prototype). This is because I believe getting a long and versatile defensive backcourt is a fine way to try and build a team and adding a catch and shoot guy would be all they needed on offense. For those who are wondering, Iguodala fits with Jrue and Turner on the defensive end very well going forward, but poorly on the offensive end. 2. The other Turner point is that I am very confident he will be an average to plus rebounder (Already is), playmaker, and defender at his position. For him to reach his full potential though, he's going to need to score efficiently. This doesn't have to be 20 points per game, but it needs to be at a point where the team can expect around 15 points every night at much higher efficiency than we saw last year. Those are my biases though; the rest will just be analysis.

Coming out of Ohio State, Turner was the do-it-all point forward for the Buckeyes. From what he showed in college with the offense spread around him at the top of the key, it seemed reasonable from the naked eye to expect that Turner would be able to create in isolation situations. That is not really what happened though. When looking at Draft Express' scouting reportlast year, the numbers said that he was below average in isolation. He only averaged .7 PPP (Points per play) in those spots, but made up for it with great numbers in transition and in the pick and roll.

So Turner did not have a great pedigree in isolation coming into the NBA, but that is a spot that the Sixers could surely use. The idea that the team needs a closer because there has to be an isolation play for one guy down the stretch of games is definitely overblown. Still, it would definitely help to have a guy who can create consistent offense by himself when a play breaks down. Many (including me) would point out that Jrue Holiday is more than capable of this (and they would be correct), having a wing player who can do that as well is very appealing. This is not the main ingredient needed for an offense to run smoothly, but it is nice to have a few players that have the ability to bail the team out of a stagnant offensive set. Can Evan Turner be one of those guys?

In his first year in the pros, Turner was surprisingly much better scoring in iso sets than he was in college. He scored .91 PPP in isolation sets, good for 56th among all of the players Synergy had ranked (I have no idea what the criteria was for being eligible). He did this on 75 field goal attempts, which probably is too small of a sample size. Compared to some other NBA players he fares pretty well when just looking at PPP, but there obviously needs to be the context of the players' roles in their respective offenses. If a player is the focus of a team's offense and has way more isolation attempts, then his PPP needs to be given more leeway. As far as how analyzing how a guy with crazy amount of isolation attempts can affect a team (positively or negatively), that's a whole other story.

I tried to find how Turner compared last season to other accomplished wing players. For the sake of time, the stats on this list are relatively crude. I'm just giving the PPP and the amount of field goal attempts.



PPPFGA
Turner.9175
Ellis.83397
Pierce.89180
Wade.91279
James.92469
Bryant.99586
Johnson.81396
Anthony.89180
Durant.90470
Holiday.97174


What I glean from those stats (Well, after my mandatory jab at Monta Ellis) is that Turner did a good job with the isolation attempts (He can get his shot off against anyone!) that were given to him. Should he be placed in the same class as Durant just because he averaged more points per possession? No way, and that's why I showed how many attempts each player took. One thing that the Sixers might want to do is give Turner a few more chances to isolate his man next season. Let's see how Turner reacts to more attempts and see if Turner's early success in this department is misleading or accurate.

That's it for the quick statistical look from Synergy but now let's look at how Turner is attacking offensively. I watched all 75 of his isolation attempts on Synergy. One thing to keep in mind is that Turner rarely had plays run for him to go one on one compared to guys like Thad and Lou. Most of these came organically in the offense.
Also, I think Turner's major problem was his passivity and his unwillingness to attack defenders for long stretches of the season. With a more aggressive approach, Turner could have probably come close to doubling his isolation attempts. Synergy only has the ones that he shoots, so I couldn't find the plays where he didn't attack. Here are some observations:

His handle and change of direction moves are excellent: They better be too, because this is the main way he scores. Turner has mastered the behind the back, crossover, between the legs, and spin dribbles to the point where he can do any of them at whatever speed he wants. This may not sound like much for an NBA player, but you'd be hard-pressed to find many players his size that can dribble the basketball any way he wants in tight quarters. Thaddeus Young is an example of a player who could be a much better ball-handler (and a better player because of it, which is saying something). This is one reason for his low turnover total.  Turner's main way to shake free is to change directions and speeds twice with his dribble, whatever moves they may be.

On this play, he shakes completely free of Al Farouq Aminu with a nice in and out dribble and then crosses over back to his left. Turner has to realize that if someone isn't low in a defensive stance and ready to move their feet, he will have success against them. He misses the shot here as it rims in and out but he creates a wide-open six-foot fadeaway. Is this shot one he can master, especially from close? Debatable. Only time will tell.

Watch video

At the same time, he works hard for his points. This includes not getting to the rim very well: On Inside the NBA, Charles Barkley has a pretty good point when he always says that Carmelo Anthony scores his points the easiest in the NBA. This means that he can make moves without really working hard. Turner is on the flip side of this equation because he has to work hard to score his points. It was funny watching the highlights because on many of his makes the opposing announcers would say "What a nice move by Evan Turner," which is great but there is often a high degree of difficulty making the moves. Sometimes you want things to be simple. There are no straight line drives to the rim or quick threes. My unofficial count was that there were sixteen shots at the rim out of the isolation plays, a couple of which that were blocked. We know that he is not an elite athlete off his feet, nor does he have a great first step. For those optimists out there, he was much more aggressive later in the year, with more success.

That being said, he gets his jumper off pretty easily: I guess that's my way of saying that he has the ability to make these moves time after time. Even though it's a lot of work to crossover and go behind his back, he gets open shots off the dribble with his size serving as a great asset. He has the ability to easily shoot over anyone less than 6'4 or so, which is why I like him more as a two. He simply has to get better at making the shots. There were a few times watching the plays where I thought, "Man, that's a great move and he has to make that shot."

Here is an example. A guy like Anthony Carter should never be able to defend Turner. On this shot Turner has Carter on his hip as he drives down the right side of the lane. Turner stops on a dime and goes behind his back for a foul like extended jumper, which he nails. Even if Carter can stay with him, He's not affecting Turner's shot on this play.

Watch video

I think he can shoot over many twos, but he may struggle with size: I remember Turner somewhat struggling against long and physical defender Damion James in his first summer league game. A long and athletic guy who can move his feet might be Turner's kryptonite.

On this play, Derrick Brown does a nice job on Turner, who tries to go all the way to the rim and gets blocked. I think he'd be better served trying to get Brown moving his feet and shaking him side to side. A straight line drive against a guy who is taller will be difficult for him to finish. He's very much the opposite of Andre Miller, who was a straight-line driver.

Watch video

Defenses laying off him are a problem, but he has the quickness to go by people who crowd him: On a little less than half of the isolations, Turner was played with what I would characterize as tight defense.  Many of the layups that he took came from being played tightly by a defender, so he is able to get to the rim when people crowd him. The problem is that he isn't played tightly enough due to lack of respect for and his hesitancy to shoot his jumper.

The three-ball would be a huge weapon, but he doesn't have it: Watch this play. When a guy is playing off him as far as Barnes is, it would really help if you could make the guy pay for playing that far off you. He only shot 4 of 9 in isolation three attempts. It would be fair to say that there were more chances throughout the season if he wanted them.

Watch video

At the end of the day, my conclusion is the same as what I thought before watching his videos: Offensively, Evan Turner will go as far as his jump shot takes him in the NBA. Don't be frightened by that proposition either. When I watch his offensive moves and how assertively he can lose defenders for jumpers, it seems apparent that he can't be a bust. It's hard to find a good amount of people in the league that are able to make these moves (Not to mention anyone outside of it), but he has to get better at knocking down the looks he creates for himself. His ability to draw fouls and get to the rim all starts outside in with a reliable jumper that defenders will respect. I sure hope he's working on doing so in Columbus right now.


27
Comments

Leave a
comment

I completely agree about Turner. I guess the biggest question that remains about him is what Collins and the front office think of him. If they truly give him a chance (even if that costs them a few wins early on) i think he will definitely be able to succeed. I have no doubt in my mind that he will become a good 10-18 foot shooter and an average three point shooter. I actually don't think he is that far off. His main problem with his jump shot is confidence IMO and i feel like he gained confidence as the season progressed. My guess is the lockout will benefit him mentally.

Nice job. I generally agree with every statement you made.

One thing I'd clarify:


"In his first year in the pros, Turner was surprisingly much better scoring in iso sets than he was in college."

As you kind of explained in your low sample size/high efficiency afterwards, his extremely high usage at Ohio State played a role in this. If you go back to his sophomore season, he had an PPP of 0.838, and 0.854 his freshman year. Before his junior year, his isolation game was where he created the majority of his offense.

Thanks for that. Well, I guess that's a little more encouraging.

user-pic
deepsixersuede +/-

Down the road are we going to regret never giving the Jrue,Evan, Iggy trio a chance to succeed? With Elton and Thad scoring efficiently at the p.f. spot and drafting a possible scoring threat at the 5, I wish they would just let things play out.

Rich, I agree that he has a better chance to succeed at the s.g. spot, and could be a great p.g. in my opinion, but Collins seems to be intrigued by having a p.f. type since he has had Iggy and G.Hill prior to this. I hope he isn't moved to the s.f. spot because of some preconcieved notion of our coach that he can only play that role.

user-pic
eddies' heady's +/-

Interesting post.

"It's hard to find a good amount of people in the league that are able to make these moves"

Really? You sure about that? Or how are you defining 'good amount'?

I think it should be taken into consideration that when you are being guarded by the Al Farouq Aminu's, and Anthony Carter's, and Derrick Brown's of the league, tempering of the optimism shouldn't be far behind. Being matched up against this caliber of guy and getting offense isn't anything to sneeze at. I realize he got moves off against better defenders, but still.

"His handle and change of direction moves are excellent"

My counter to this would be what I've said before - fancy dribbling but 'mostly' going nowhere. And as you said, those moves "better be excellent because that's the main way he scores" is sort of a major problem for me if he is going to play the 2. He will have to become adept at running off screens and be able to catch and shoot, especially because, as you said, he isn't an elite athlete off his feet and doesn't have a quick enough first step.

"At the same time, he works hard for his points. This includes not getting to the rim very well"

This is a major bugaboo because he always looks like he's grinding away just to get a look. A consistent fixed jumper can alleviate a lot of this.

"That being said, he gets his jumper off pretty easily"

Don't really agree with this. As mentioned, he grinds too hard 'just' to get something off. Along with, he has ability to make moves with his crafty dribbling (as you said) but doesn't accomplish anything of substance from doing it. He mostly would just end up passing the ball to the nearest teammate that he dribbled closest to.

"I think he can shoot over many twos, but he may struggle with size"

This is a major red flag, to me. He maybe can shoot over twos, but getting by them will be a problem if they begin to crowd him. He can't shoot over threes and doesn't possess the quick first step to get by them either. And I don't think shaking a guy side to side will be that productive when factoring in help defense coming over to cheat.

"Defenses laying off him are a problem, but he has the quickness to go by people who crowd him"

He got to the rim very little but a big issue for me was he rarely drew and absorbed contact resulting in a trip to the line. He never seemed to implement the art of deception to get a guy committed so he could draw a foul. And as you say, lack of respect and passitivy to shoot his jumper will be a quick ticket to bench minutes in this league.

"The three-ball would be a huge weapon, but he doesn't have it"

This is the end-all for me of him not being able to play the 2, along with the lack of getting separation off screens and catching and shooting.

This is why I've said he's better suited as a backup PG (more individual and team success in his preferred ball-dominant role) or a backup wing player but at which position (2 or 3) it's hard to say - matchups would dictate, I guess.

While this probably seems like a counter to everyting you wrote (it is, isn't it? :)), basically the guy *must* become a more consistent jump shooter in any situation to achieve any ascension in his individual and team game. Which is the same conclusion you came to, except for, I disagree with your assertion of not being frightened by that proposition - because I am, big time.

don't think I agree with any of this

I mean, he had his moments against Wade and LeBron. I could track them down. Remember though, I am not saying he's going to be a Superstar, just a quality starter. If Jrue develops the way he can, he will be guarded by guys like Aminu and Carter in the future.

In what he showed in his iso game, I don't think there are many guys who can break free with these moves. On his jumper he gets good separaration constantly and has the ability to shoot over these guys. If he wanted to shoot it more, he could have gotten a clean look a lot. He just wasn't confident in his shot.

As for the fact that he can't get to the rim, that's largely a product of the defense playing off him. Once they have to respect the jumper, they can't basically run to the rim to take his drive away. A difference of opinion on his jumper improving...

user-pic
eddies' heady's replied to comment from Rich +/-

"I mean, he had his moments against Wade and LeBron. I could track them down."

A blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while too, right?

"Remember though, I am not saying he's going to be a Superstar, just a quality starter."

And this is where we are on two different wavelengths. You see him as a quality starter. If he ever reaches starter material, I only see him as a marginal one. But as of now, I see him more as a bench role player, and really, that's all he has shown he's capable of, however incrementally.

I actually was away from a computer all day and reread this part:

"This is a major red flag, to me. He maybe can shoot over twos, but getting by them will be a problem if they begin to crowd him. He can't shoot over threes and doesn't possess the quick first step to get by them either. And I don't think shaking a guy side to side will be that productive when factoring in help defense coming over to cheat."

From what I saw on the video he can get by almost everybody who crowds him. If people crowd him (whatever position it is) he can go by them, especially a 2 that he's stronger then. He's not that slow. Threes that space him properly will give him trouble, but if they crowd him, he can go by.

Just watching the Brown play, if ET comes back with another quick crossover towards the middle, Brown's ankles are broken because he's already off-balance selling out to block Turner's drive. Instead it was one halfhearted crossover which isn't enough. The problem for him right now is that as soon as he starts driving people sell out to get back to the rim knowing they'd rather him stop and shoot a jumper.

If he draws help defense, that's a good thing (open shooters).

Great post Rich! I agree 100%, excellent analysis.

I agree with the post and thanks to save me from a boring morning at work..
Turner“s game to me looks like an hybrid of caron butler and brandon roy but with a shaky J. Both players are average NBA athletes that got by with smarts and skills.
Have a jumpshot is a skill that Turner struggle in his rookie season, I know he lost confidence at the beggining but if you look at the end of season he shot way better, even the 3ball in the playoffs..
Another point is I saw some of Turner“s games at college and he was leaner,a bit faster. I know he had to get stronger to play in the NBA but if you are not an elite athlete, getting heavier by lifting weights gets you slower than you already are..
I would like to see 1 more season to make my opinion on Turner, it would b nice to see him after one NBA summer workout regime but with the lockout
How much Turner improve next season, it will tell a lot about his caracter as a player

Great post Rich. Biggest concern is "he works hard for his points." No matter what, he will have to overcompensate for his lack of athleticism. He needs to add strength so that the separation he creates through dribbling can be used to get to the rim. Like you say though, he will struggle with size. He needs to work hard to be that quality starter, but all indications point to him doing so.

The funny thing about athleticism is that it's not just a first step and how high you jump. It's also coordination and body control which is what Turner has. I call that 'Steve Nash athleticism.'

You're forgetting he's already making large strides. He started the year going 1-25 from three. Remember that? He ended up shooting like 32%. That's a large improvement.

Thanks for analysis.

What about his post up game? Is that a weapon he can use? I remember him scoring against Lebron in his first game with a post up move.

Coming up at a later date. Synergy has post up video too.

Very small sample size (only 35 possessions). He was efficient, though.

So would you rather:

trade Igoudala, become a lottery team and build with a lineup of Jrue-Turner-Sullinger
-or-

keep Igoudala, be a #6 seed, and draft Thomas Robinson

-or-
keep Igoudala, and trade Thad, Evan, 1st round draft pick, and Noc. for an all-star player

#3's too hypothetical for me. Depends on the type and level of that player.

As for the first 2, #1 would be the preference by far. But I don't think this team is that bad for that to happen, even without Iguodala.

Just dumping Iggy doesn't put us among the 5 worst teams in the league which is what's required to hopefully get lucky and land Sullinger.

I think if neither ET nor Jrue stepped up to legit all star play we'd be a bottom 5 team in the league. No way a Meeks/Turner wing can cut it, unless you think Thad can turn into a 3.

What if we rehire Eddie Jordan?

Haha, then we get the #1 overall pick!

user-pic
Korean76ersFan replied to comment from Dan +/-

Choice #1, but I wouldn't pick Sullinger unless it was great value

Just for the sake of hypotheticals, would you do that trade above if you got danny granger and say roy hibbert or something and consider playing iguodala at the two and granger at the three? pretty good offense defense with a guy that can shoot threes.

Probably not a possible trade by any means though

Yao Ming is retiring. Shame.


Expand/Contract all comments


Leave a comment


HOME TWITTER - follow me on Twitter for timely updates and quick links. FACEBOOK - become a fan on Facebook, upload photos from games, reach out to other fans, plan field trips. RESOURCES - all the links you need in one place. ROSTER - salary cap and roster information with links to player archives. SCHEDULE - all 82 games, your entrance to the new game pages. ARCHIVES - monthly and a complete list of tag archives CONTACT - send me a link, drop me a line, inquire about advertising on Depressed Fan. CONTENT USAGE POLICY - Rules for using Depressed Fan content elsewhere. BLOGS BY FANS - check out the entire Blogs By Fans network - Sports Blogs, The Way They Were Meant To Be. SITEMAP - just in case you get lost
©2013 Blogs By Fans | Design by Brian Ward

Expand  /  Toggle
Leave a comment