Leaving the WFC on Thursday night, I actually felt a little bit hopeful about the Sixers. Without the benefit of replays or closeups or expert analysis, I thought Jrue played an excellent game. I thought the Sixers outplayed Miami for long stretches and Elton Brand soundly won his matchup with Bosh. Last night, I had a chance to watch the replay to see if those thoughts held up when I rewatched the game on DVR.
After writing my recap, reading the game thread, then reading the comments on my recap, I was left with a couple of questions. First, how good was Jrue's game? Certain people always seem intent on throwing cold water on anything positive, so I decided to break down Jrue's game by possession. Namely, I wanted to see who was guarding him, who he was guarding, how the team performed when he was on the floor vs. off the floor and his production in each matchup, offensively and defensively. Here's a high-level overview of the matchups.
- Jrue was on the floor for 74 of 84 offensive possessions.
- With Jrue on the floor, the Sixers scored 85 points on 74 possessions. An OFR of 114.86
- With Jrue on the bench, the Sixers scored 9 points on 10 possessions. An OFR of 90.
- Jrue was on the floor for 71 of 83 defensive possessions.
- With Jrue on the floor, the Sixers allowed 84 points on 71 possessions. A DFR of 118..3.
- With Jrue on the bench, the Sixers allowed 16 points on 12 possessions. A DRF of 133.33.
- Overall, the Sixers outscored Miami 85-84 with Jrue on the floor and were outscored 16-9 with him on the bench.
The overall numbers probably shouldn't surprise anyone. It was clear the team struggled with Jrue on the bench on both ends. So let's take a look at Jrue's individual matchups. First, we'll check out Jrue's defense. This is a look at who Jrue was guarding on each possession. For the most part, this is who he started the possession guarding, unless there was an offensive rebound and a reset, in which case, it's who he guarded after the reset.
- Guarding Bibby: 25 possessions. On those possessions, Bibby was 1 for 4 for three points.
- Guarding Chalmers: 6 possessions. On those possessions, Chalmers was 0 for 1 from the floor for zero points.
- James Jones: 6 possessions. On those possessions, Jones was 1 for 1 from the floor for three points.
- LeBron James: 2 possessions. On those possessions, James didn't attempt a shot.
- Dwyane Wade: 33 possessions. On those possessions, Wade was 5/7 from the floor, 5/5 from the line, with 3 turnovers and 15 points.
Jrue really had two bad lapses on the defensive end. The first was the Jones corner three. He was cheating off Jones, I guess putting himself in position to be able to help at the basket in case someone drove to the hoop, but he was just way too far off Jones. He got the ball off LeBron penetration and canned the three. The other lapse came when he was one-on-one with Wade and let Wade blow right by him to the hoop. He got all the way to the basket and got fouled. There was no pick, it was just Jrue getting beat badly.
Bibby, Chalmers, LeBron and Jones pretty much did nothing against Jrue. The Bibby three came when Jrue was helping on LeBron. There was no rotation. Wade definitely did damage against Jrue, but the numbers make the matchup look worse than it was. Two of Wade's hoops came on offensive rebounds and putbacks, and neither was Jrue's fault. On both of those shots, Jrue left Wade and put a body on Joel Anthony who, on both occasions, was about five feet from the hoop while Hawes was nowhere to be found. Jrue had to choose the lesser of two evils and he chose to put a body on the big man. The first shot was an airball which basically fell in Wade's lap. On the second shot, Wade came from the top of the key and took off from about a foot inside the foul line for the follow slam. Both plays were the result of having a stiff at the center position, and no fault of Jrue's. The other two dubious points came with 51 seconds left when Jrue was whistled for a shooting foul on Wade. TNT didn't show a replay of the play because, well, because he's Dwyane Wade and why would they ever question it when he gets fouled, but they showed a replay on the big screen at the WFC and Jrue was literally six inches away from Wade and never even came close to making contact with him on the play. It was a terrible, terrible call and really a crucial call in the game. Wade hit both freebies to push the Heat lead back up to 7. Take away those six points and well, Wade scored an extremely efficient 9 points on 3/5 from the floor, but he was hardly explosive vs. Jrue.
Jrue made a few other spectacular defensive plays that don't show up in the numbers above. One was when he tied Wade up on a strong drive to the hoop, resulting in a jump ball. Another was when he was switched onto LeBron and isolated in the post. He held his ground and forced LeBron into a bad fallaway. His best defensive play probably came in the second quarter. Jrue was on Wade, Miami went with a pick-and-roll with Wade and Bosh. MIA ran it perfectly, with Wade hitting Bosh rolling to the hoop, Jrue trailed Bosh, got the strip from behind and the ball went out of bounds off Bosh's knee.
Now let's take a look at Jrue's offensive night. This time, we're going to look at who was guarding Jrue, and how he faired in each matchup:
- Guarded by Bibby: 35 possessions. 2 for 7 from the floor, 3 assists, 2 turnovers, 4 points.
- Guarded by Wade: 14 possessions. 2 for 3 from the floor, 2 for 4 from the line, 1 assist, 0 turnovers, 8 points.
- Guarded by Chalmers: 4 possessions. 1 assist.
- Guarded by LeBron: 21 possessions. 3 for 3 from the floor, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, 8 points.
Offensively, Jrue scored 16 of his 20 points with either LeBron or Wade on him. He scored those 16 points on 6 shots and 4 free throws. He also handed out 4 assists to zero turnovers. He struggled when Bibby guarded him, committing both of his turnovers and hitting only 2 of his 7 shots. This doesn't mean Bibby is a tough matchup for Jrue, or that Bibby is a better defender than Wade or LeBron. In this case, it means that when Bibby was guarding Jrue, he had plenty of help all night long. He wasn't left on an island with Jrue. Wade and LeBron really were, and Jrue took advantage of those one-on-one matchups, believe it or not. The thing Jrue needs to be able to do to really take over games is to take advantage of the pressure he can put on a defense when he has a mismatch. Miami is keying their defense on him when Bibby is on him, sending extra guys at him. Jrue needs to make quick decisions with the ball to find the open man. The team struggled because Jrue was struggling to exploit the added attention Miami was sending his way, in part. With Bibby guarding Jrue, the Sixers scored 37 points on 35 possessions. With anyone else guarding Jrue, they scored 48 points on 39 possessions. I guess we should hope Miami puts one of their best defenders on Jrue early in game four.
After watching the replay, I actually think Jrue's performance was a bigger deal. He put up the bulk of his numbers with two of the best wing defenders in the league on him, in the biggest pressure situation of his career. His defense was solid for the most part and spectacular at times. He rose to the occasion in a big way. If you need something to feel good about, this is it.
As for the rest of the team, well, Statman pointed out that I might have been unfairly hard on Iguodala, and I suppose I probably was. He spoonfed guys for a bunch of easy hoops with his penetration and dishing. My main problem with the game he played was that his shot selection, and sort of his lack thereof. Yes, he was setting guys up, but he also passed up really good looks on a number of occasions and the team wound up settling for worse shots. On at least one occasion, this was a direct result of the knee injury. Iguodala got the ball out on the break and had a clean angle to the rim. 99 times out of 100, that's a thunderous dunk, but he was a half-step slow, his angle got cut off and he wound up making an awkward dish to Jrue who was in a bad position under the hoop. Jrue got fouled on the play and wound up missing both free throws (his first two misses since March 28th). Two points turned into zero, though you obviously can't blame Iguodala for the missed freebies.
Also, Elton Brand really was a beast in this game. Not only with his exceptional touch from midrange, but his work on the defensive glass was exceptional. Brand grabbed pretty much every tough defensive board the Sixers wound up with (and there weren't many). The only bad thing about Brand's game was that the Sixers didn't recognize how hot he was, and they only got him 15 shots.
Joel Anthony is officially in Thad's head. I think they're going to have to get creative to free Thad. I'd try to use him in the pick and roll with Jrue, see if you can't get Thad switched onto a smaller guy or even get him the ball in space. It might even be a good idea to get Thad in there earlier than usual, see if they can get him some minutes against the Bosh/Ilgauskus front court before Spoelstra calls on Anthony.
Finally, it was great to see flashes of the real Lou Williams. He seemed more explosive, especially on the layup at the end of the third when he blew right by LeBron and got the Sixers a two-for-one. The lowlight of the night for Lou was going 1/3 from the line when he got Chalmers to bite on the pump fake from three. They really needed all three of those.
We've got another day to suffer through, then probably one last game. In the mean time, how 'bout them Knicks?
Jrue has been outstanding in his first playoff series IMO, i strongly agree with this post.
heck yeah brian you're the man! Nice work on this post. I really want to see whats on the table for iggy this summer. I like him but i just wish he would take advantage of mismatches that guard him. Im pretty sure he can take james jones to the hole or back him down easily.
Most importantly - how did the "airball" chant come across on tv? I forgot to DVR but we were all witnesses to a great sequence from the crowd there. I loved that it picked up again on the next possession when he touched the ball. Sure he canned long 2's to shut the crowd up but those are the shots we needed him to try.
heh, the TV broadcast missed Hawes falling flat on his back while trying to give Iguodala a high five after making the first shot of the game.
The Sixers need a special player... but Hawes is a "special" player.
I completely forgot about that. Hilarious.
Good job on reviewing this. dvr can be good. I wasn't belittling Jrue's game yesterday as I stated at the end of the game thread that Iguodala being Casper the ghost on offense wasted another stellar game from Jrue. I just didn't get the sense that he rose to the occasion (assumedly vs Wade/LBJ) because I remembered him pulling up for a couple of quick threes, shooting another one off a nice setup pass from Dre on a break, and generally not getting to the line at will. Sort of like the previous two games where he just didn't take advantage of a glaring mismatch when going against the Heat's two point guards. I just felt the day after that the point total was somewhat inflated because of the unusual number of made threes.
Just disappointed in another loss I guess and crazily disappointed that Jrue had another showing very reminiscent of how stellar he played on that long West coast trip when Dre was out and had me asking myself "where did that player go?" in a string of games after that trip. Just anxious for Jrue to discard those "what the hell was he doing/thinking" games and take that torch that I'm believing Doug will pass to him next year. That, or Andre getting traded causing it to pass.
No denying that Jrue has been inconsistent all year (which is not a surprise at 20.) But whem I look back at all of the "big" games against top teams like the Spurs, Boston, Miami etc, I feel like Jrue, more than anyone, has been willing and able to step up and perform at a high level. He was a POTG candidtate in a bunch of their statement wins- and that says a lot moving forward. FWIW, ET has also played some of his best ball this series.
While Iguodala seems to rarely take advantage of seemingly major mismatches on the offensive end. He also has been marginalized as a scorer in 2 playoff series- although he is banged up and racking up assists. So scoring is not everything- but it also can't be dismissed.
I realize I'll be accused of whatever but I just don't see what some have been talking about with regards to ET playing this so-called 'best ball'. The guy has played a total of 42 minutes in three games with 26 of those coming in game two's blowout. He's scored 19 points with 15 of those coming in game two where he unusually and unexpectedly made three 3-pointers. Take those away and he has 10 points total this whole series. He has 7 rebs, 2 assts, 1 st, and 0 turnovers in the three games.
He really didn't play much in games 1 and 3 and had a very rare hot shooting night in game 2. But when he's gotten even spot minutes, particularly in game 3, he's played rather poorly and made some costly mistakes. They are of the minor variety but escalate into major ones quickly. That's why he played little, if at all (can't remember as Brian doesn't have the charts up), in the second half in game 3.
If playing 'best ball' is making pretty much wide open given shots then I wouldn't want to know what playing 'great ball' is. It would still possess too many omissions.
Oh, couldn't agree more on the Iguodala thing and scoring being dismissed. I would go out on a limb and say we need a "scorer" ten times worse than we need added defense. Because if Doug can take some of these below average defenders and get them to play that sound of a scheme and be that good of a defensive team, then how potent could we really be in these close games if we just had someone to get his own offense and convert frequently doing it?
Jrue definitely had a strong game. BUT--teams don't gameplan for him ..YET. I'm sure they made a concerted effort to shut down Thad and Iggy. And they did. Although Iggy probably helped a lot himself.
As far as the Knicks go---and I am being realistic here, with a top 10(melo) and a top 20 player(stoudemire) their future is a lot brighter than Philly's. Add CP3 or maybe Deron Williams and they will be playing with Miami in the Eastern Semi's while the Sixers watch at home.
For once I wish the Sixers would strike gold with one of their draft picks. Or hire scouts that can find that gold. Their best pick in the last 10 years has been Iggy and hes certainly no superstar. Jury is out on Jrue until he does it for an entire season with teams game planning to stop him night after night. Ala Derrick Rose. The results are the results... 4 first round exits and 5 lottery appearances for the last 9 years with not one year of having a legitimate shot of winning anything
more than a playoff series. And in all of these series they have been outclassed by a wide margin. Soon as these good teams wake up they beat the crap out of the sixers. (2008 detroit comes to mind, game 2 against Miami this year) I'm a long time philly fan--even though the Eagles never win it they are always there and have a legitimate shot for what seems to be every year.
More like top 10-15 player (Stoudemire), top 30 player (Melo).
If the Sixers were in the Western Conference they would be out missed the playoffs every year by several games. They are a marginal playoff team. I think their playoff performances have been in line with what you would expect going against a clearly superior opponent each time.
BUT--teams don't gameplan for him ..YET
I don't know, I think putting LeBron on him for the entire fourth quarter of a tight playoff game would be considered game planning for him.
eh, or was that just a result of how bad Iguodala was sucking?
Either way, it was Miami realizing who our best perimeter player is offensively and putting their best defender on him.
btw, I don't think you were being unfairly hard on Iguodala. The guy had quite a few 'loser' type plays in that game. Just non-excused unacceptable plays. And the tape will bear that out I'm sure.
He gets a pass around here alot because of obvious, and in some cases, warranted biases. If Lou or Spencer did that crap the floodgates would be open.
I shudder to think what we would be like without his ability to nullify opponents' best players on a nightly basis, but he's "led" us to yet another .500 season and sometimes it's just time to move on. As fans we are reluctant to travel there just like when Iverson's ending was approaching. If we take an expected step back it could turn out for the better and maybe get us out of this mediocrity purgatory we've been in for the last 10 years.
Because if management doesn't shake something up I foresee us being the same for the next 5 or so years; too good to be bad and not bad enough to get good.
The guy had quite a few 'loser' type plays in that game. Just non-excused unacceptable plays.
I counted three poor plays on offense (two bad shot attempts/non-attempts and the turnover that led to a fastbreak on the other end) and maybe five bad plays on defense, none of which were inexcusable (two 50-50 offensive rebounds allowed, two times beaten off the dribble, once out of position on a switch). To me, those plays (plus 5 missed open shots) don't offset 20 good plays on offense and 5-6 good plays on defense.
That said, I do hope Iguodala can get traded somewhere where his contributions will mean the difference between a loss and a win and not the difference between a bad loss and a close loss. For Sixers fans, the first post-Iguodala year will be very similar to what Eagles fans experienced this year, rejoicing that McNabb had finally been traded, only to see their season end on an INT and not have McNabb to blame (what a weird feeling that must have been).
I obviously don't pore over the replays of these games as you have the capability to do. But, that said, two plays I was specifically talking about were the one I wrote a comment about at the end of the game thread. The strip/turnover that led to the James to Wade fast break. He literally jogged back down court into the play and was in look-see mode after getting to half court instead of going full bore to get back into the play after causing the runout the other way. From my recollection of that play live, he could have affected that break in some way with just a semblance of hustle. Really poor effort on his part.
The other play that comes to mind was when he didn't grab that loose ball rebound near the end of the 4th. He didn't make a concerted effort to go to the floor and secure possession instead trying to run before he even picked it up. That was maginfied obviously because it was such a crucial point in the game. But when it happened it just seemed rather typical of his career here - almost, but just not good enough.
And I won't even delve into his disinterest and unattentiveness during one of Collins' timeout huddles.
I agree these don't offset all the other good he did in that game but moreso just typify his lack of mental discrimination needed to succeed at such aggrandized moments.
So you feel fairly confident that he will get traded? His play this series certainly could help his way out.
I have no idea if he will be traded. I just said I hope he will be traded somewhere where his game will be valued.
Oh, I read "the first post-Iguodala year will" be like such and such to be a description of a future event you thought was actually going to happen, rather than a surmise about what such a thing would be like if it ever did happen.
Brian, good stuff. I also re-watched the game to compile advanced stats (hopefully coming later today). A few comments:
- Jrue's leaving James Jones on that play wasn't entirely inexcusable. A big man (I think Brand) had gone to help Meeks on Wade, so Jrue was left between Brand's man, who might have had a dunk, and Jones. Jrue took a step toward the big man and was late getting back to Jones. He was caught between a 90% dunk and a 65% 3. Interestingly, Lou had the opportunity to help on that penetration but stuck to his man (Bibby).
- That said, I wasn't as high on Jrue's defense as you were. He made some good plays but just as many (if not more) bad plays by my count. You mentioned one, where Wade beat him off the dribble (understandable if that happens once or twice). But there was another play where Wade was in the corner and Jrue lost track of him while watching LeBron. The defense converged on LeBron, who found Wade cutting to the hoop for a 3-point play. On the Chalmers airball that went right to Wade, Jrue again lost sight of Wade and wasn't boxing out anyone.
- It's true that not all of Wade's offensive rebounds were Jrue's fault, and this is true in general of several of the offensive rebounds allowed. What happened a lot is that Wade or LeBron got all the way to the rim, somebody had to help (usually Hawes or Brand), then the original defender that was beaten wasn't in position to box out the helper's man (often Ilgauskas). Hard to assign blame on some of those plays.
- Jrue had a very good offensive game, but a lot of that was predicated on being unusually hot from outside. Even though it didn't show in this game, it's when he goes up against Bibby that he looks dominant (for example, his first two baskets), getting wherever and whatever he wants. Most of his success vs. Wade and LeBron came from surprising them with quick outside shots (that to Jrue's credit went in), though Jrue did have one impressive move where he drew the foul on Wade.
- While Iguodala generated several assists through penetration (see below), Jrue picked up most of his assists from making the right pass after movement off the ball, which is actually promising for the rest of the series -- if the Sixers run crisp plays, they can get good shots (i.e., they don't have to rely entirely on dribble penetration).
- One play that worked more than once (give Collins credit for designing this) was having Jrue/Iguodala throw an entry pass to Brand on the strong side, then immediately cut through. The defender was momentarily distracted by the cutter, and Brand was able to turn and get off an open jumper.
- Regarding Iguodala's offense, he had two exceedingly ugly plays (the one where he passed up a 3 and caused a 24-sec violation and the one in the 4th where he dribbled into a tougher shot that came up badly short), but I don't have a problem with the rest of the misses: three open 3's, two open jumpers, a missed tip. I didn't see any plays where he passed up a shot and caused someone else a more difficult shot. Besides his 10 assists, I counted 5 more open shots that resulted from his passes (including back-to-back plays during the opening dry spell in the 4th where he got Thad an open 18-footer and Lou a wide-open 3, both of which missed) and 3 other plays where the pass recipient got 2 foul shots. So 18 scoring opportunities generated for a team that has had exceeding difficulty in this series generating good shots.
- Hawes had a better defensive game than I originally gave him credit for just looking at the boxscore. He and Brand were really under fire having to pick up penetrators off switches. But the best teams have mobile big men capable of generating stops off switches (Garnett, Noah, Horford/Josh Smith, Howard, Bynum, Duncan, Chandler, Ibaka). While we lament the loss of Dalembert because of his great rebounding, I'm not sure he would have been that much better in this regard. To my recollection, Dalembert wasn't very good helping out in P/R situations.
I don't doubt that Iguodala's individual shot selection was fine for the most part. But I still have a problem he cannot step up his offensive production in these big games. Maybe it is because he is hurt?
I'm not saying his scoring is the only way to judge his production. I'm not asking for a 30 or 40 point explosion. But I've watch Iguodala enough to know that when aggressive he can routinely put up 20-25 points and be a threat as opposed to a "dead out." You cannot get 6 pts/game and have an eFG% and TS% well under 40% from one of you key players. And this is the second playoff series where that has been the case.
I differentiate this series with the Detroit series. In 07-08, the Pistons took Iguodala completely out of his game, so that in addition to his poor shooting he committed 26 turnovers (to 30 assists) in 6 games. In this series, I think he's playing his game well, contributing on offense (26 assists to 10 turnovers) but just shooting horrendously. I agree that the Iguodala of the past should be capable of 20-25 points from penetrating and attacking the rim, but not the Iguodala of this year, who shoots more jumpers than ever (whether from injuries or something else). This year's Iguodala isn't scoring 20 if he isn't hitting his jumper (or getting several dunks, which Miami isn't allowing this series). That has made him a scoring liability in this series.
Put another way, what do you think he's realistically capable of at this point that he's not doing on offense? Other than hitting more open jumpers, I'm not sure what else can be expected at this point. He's not going to develop an in-between game suddenly.
concerning Jrue, I agree that a big part of it was that his shot was falling. He is getting pretty consistent with that mid range pull off the dribble shot but I still don't know if that's his game yet. He did get to the rim, a bit, that and the turnovers made it a very impressive effort to me.
Getting to the rim against Miami is very hard. How many times has Iggy gone there this series and gotten stripped, looking up in exasperation at the refs who won't bail him out. Most times when he is in there, he can't even get a shot off and has to dump it to Hawes or someone. You have to keep your dribble low (almost Chris Paul like) to have success in there.
Even Brand had to make adjustments to get his shot off. I wish Iggy would take that example. Otherwise, I have no really harsh words; it's tough playing Miami.
On the Chalmers airball that went right to Wade, Jrue again lost sight of Wade and wasn't boxing out anyone.
Watch that one again, he leaves Wade to put a body on Anthony, who was in perfect position if the shot actually catches iron.
The other play is definitely one I should've mentioned. He completely lost Wade on the baseline and Wade wound up making that circus shot and getting fouled.
Okay, I re-watched it; I was basically confusing it with the play one play later when Jrue allowed another offensive rebound to Wade and wasn't boxing anyone out.
The play in question (Wade catches the Chalmers airball and dunks) wasn't really clear-cut in my mind. Bosh had the ball in the post and Lou came to double. Bosh swung to an open Chalmers. Brand then left his man (Anthony) to challenge Chalmers. Jrue was left with a choice between boxing out Anthony (five feet from the basket on the strong side) and boxing out Wade (two feet from the basket on the weak side). On a 50-50 choice (just like the James Jones 3), he chose the wrong one. I don't blame Jrue (though in the DP statistics, there was no choice but to assign the offensive rebound allowed to him), except that he wasn't really boxing out Anthony either, if you look closely.
On the other play you mention where Wade got a follow dunk, it was a similar play: Brand went to help Iguodala on LeBron off a P/R, Brand's man (Anthony) crashed the boards as LeBron shot a 3, and Jrue went to box out Anthony. However, if you look closely, Jrue isn't really boxing out Anthony either, as Anthony has inside position with Wade. Again, I assigned the offensive rebound allowed and follow basket for that play to Jrue, though it was more unfortunate than anything else.
I suppose the Sixers' other option on plays like those is not to help on the perimeter (and allow open 3's) and not to double in the post (Hawes had decent position on Bosh on the first play, Lou probably didn't need to double). But those strategies have inherent dangers too ...
http://www.nba.com/sixers/stats/
iggy's stats for this series speak for themselves and they say loud and clear that he has flat out sucked.
If the Sixers lose tomorrow, I just hope jrue scores 28 points. That will put his playoff ppg at 20, which makes him an immediate superstar by most standards.
no no no. It doesn't.That just means he scored 20 ppg on a team that got swept. Badly. Going by your logic, Tim Thomas would be a superstar based on his 05-06 playoff. As well as Luol Deng a few years ago. I recall us saying this about Thad Young a few years ago and he doesnt even start for us and before this season many wanted him traded, both he and Speights . And Lou Williams for that matter.
I think Jrue is a good player, but he doesnt look like a Derrick Rose or Deron Williams to me. Those are superstars.
This was not the sarcasm you were looking for
I hear ya. I re-read Brians statement. My bad. I didnt immediately get the sarcasm. My bad :/
Obviously you don't read depressedfan often enough. Shame on you ;)
no no no. It doesn't.That just means he scored 20 ppg on a team that got swept. Badly. Going by your logic, Tim Thomas would be a superstar based on his 05-06 playoff. As well as Luol Deng a few years ago. I recall us saying this about Thad Young a few years ago and he doesnt even start for us and before this season many wanted him traded, both he and Speights . And Lou Williams for that matter.
I think Jrue is a good player, but he doesnt look like a Derrick Rose or Deron Williams to me. Those are superstars.
One more topic I wanted to surface for discussion today but forgot in the post:
Wade is the best player in the NBA. He's the closest thing the league has seen to Jordan. LBJ is great, but he's seriously Robin to Wade's Batman. The Heat turned the corner when everyone in miami realized/admitted that.
That euro step is something else
His ability to use his quickness and explosiveness to drive is the closest to what MJ was (at least early-mid career MJ.) Rose probably second. But MJ controlled a game whereas Wade is more a just weapon.
I remember being really high on Wade when he was drafted (I would have picked him 2nd) and expecting him to be like mike.
I had this conversation with a few people and I disagree. LeBron does more than Wade in a lot of categories. Now with the ball in one guy's hands in crunch time? I'll take Wade.
My big thing is that I got mad when people (Not saying this is you Brian) let their hatred of LeBron get in the way of objectively evaluating him. Also, don't let Wade doing much of his damage to Turner/Meeks inflate his value over LeBron still quietly having a good series (Better than Wade's statistically).
I always though Miami was going to be a brutal team to play in the playoffs with those two. The real test comes next round against LeBron's past ghosts, Boston. I like the Heat in five there.
I think the distinction between the two, for me, is that Wade can do everything and score whenever he wants, I don't think LeBron can.
But LeBron, actually, does do everything; Wade just can do everything, and doesn't do everything nearly as often as LeBron, who does everything pretty much all the time, does. I agree that Wade's a better scorer, skills-wise, though I don't know that the numbers show that. The numbers would say LeBron's a better shooter and LeBron scores more efficiently and, I believe, scores more. No doubt, however, that Wade's a better guy to go to for points late in a game, but in the flow of a game I think LeBron's a better offensive player.
And also, this whole Batman/Robin distinction is besides the point; even if they do defer to Wade in certain aspects of the game, that doesn't make Wade the better player. You're essentially saying that we look at who gets the ball in late-game isos to decide who a team's best player is - but obviously there's so much more to the game than who gets the ball in late-game isos. What about the fact that LeBron's the team's primary ball-handler?
You don't think lebron can do anything and score any time he wants?
You're wrong.
He's stupidly in love with his outside shot but he's fast and probably one of the strongest players at his position in the league, he rebounds great for his position and has great court vision. It's interesting cause you're falling for the 'he scores points' fallacy with wade I think. He's a better scorer, James is a better all around player in my opinion
The crazy thing is that I totally agree with you and Tray. Those are exactly my feelings.
Everything you just said about LeBron applies to wade as well. And we're talking about two guys who each score a ton of points very efficiently. I'm not just looking at who scores more when, I'm looking at their total games and, to me, Wade is the more dangerous weapon.
One year fantasy draft and I have the number one pick, I'd take Wade over LeBron. I also think it's a good thing for the entire league that Wade is the somewhat frail one of the two, and the older one. His health/Athleticism is going to dictate how long Miami's championship window stays open, not lebron's.
Fantasy sports and real sports don't always coincide (and I'd take lebron first because he helps you in rebounds and assists more than wade does)
http://bkref.com/tiny/gtlT2
Overall Lebron gets the slight edge, but I factor health (and age) into these things. Lebron has 3 years on wade and no major issues (and let's remember how you felt about Wade missing a practice with a migraine) and Wades actually WORSE from the 3 than lebron (who knew)
It's also arguable that until this year, wade had better players around him.
I take James every time
Ugh. Ok, guess I wasn't clear.
Wasn't talking about fantasy basketball literally, was saying that in a fantasy situation where you redrafting to play an actual NBA season, one season so age is not an issue, I'd take Wade first. Meaning, he's the best player right now, but LeBron's going to be great for longer, that's why I made the distinction.
Wade is just as good of a rebounder as LBJ for his position, he's maybe a hair worse as a facilitator. He's just as good of defender. I think offensively, he's a cut above LeBron and he can get whatever he wants, whenever he wants. That's the difference between the two, imo.
He's a sub 30% 3 point shooter for his career - so if he wants a 3 - it's unlikely he's going to make on (James sucks too but not as badly)
If you're only playing one season right now, I take Kobe over Wade too
Kobe isn't even top five at this point of his career.
Disagree. Lebron was the consistent end of game option on a Cleveland team that is probably the worst in the league. Hes single handedly beaten detroit and boston in the playoffs in the past. And thats with every posession going to him. I think they are both in the top 3 in the NBA. Wade, Kobe, Lebron. In no particular order.
to me the difference between Wade and LeBron is that Wade is the closer. No doubt LeBron overall has the best talent and all-round ability in this game, but Wade has a much stronger killer instinct than LeBron. So he makes the biggest plays when they matter most.
Video: Williams Saturday on not wanting to get swept and what winning one game would mean:
http://ow.ly/4FHyP
Turner Saturday on the Sixers still being confident and how the Flyers scored three goals after he bought an orange hockey helmet at the Wells Fargo Center during Game 5 against Sabres:
http://ow.ly/4FHN9
Video: Holiday on not wanting to get swept and becoming a more consistent scorer for Sixers:
http://ow.ly/4FHVb
Video: Collins Saturday on trying to avoid elimination and working on the players' mental approach:
http://ow.ly/4FI2D
Turner: Flyers fans 'made sure I had the helmet on':
http://ow.ly/4FIHC
Includes photo of Turner in orange hockey helmet and Turner Saturday video interview
So at this moment, Chicago has only outscored Indiana by a point. Wins by 4, 5, and 6, and a 14-point deficit now. I think most people would say Indiana has more upside than us. Paul George is going to get a lot better; so, probably, will Collison and Hibbert. Hansbrough has major room for improvement, McRoberts can become something. Granger isn't getting any better, but he's only 28 so it will be a while before he gets any worse. With us, Jrue has room for growth, Turner has room for growth but may always be lousy, Iguodala's what he is, Lou is what he is, Thad's probably what he is, and Speights doesn't seem to care.
Of course, Indiana almost blew the game. Rose, coming off a 4-18 game, was 6-22 in this one, and only got to the line 4 times. 1 of 9 for three! I'm not sure precisely what makes him think those are good shots for him, just because for the first time in his career he actually has some three-point range. Since the All-Star break, he's only made 29.9%, yet took 5.6 a game.
Haven't watched a minute of this series. Does Indiana have a good defensive scheme, or is Chicago getting exposed? I do know the Sixers have matched up better with the Bulls than the Heat this year.
Or Rose got injured early in the game and some people conveniently ignore the fact (Or just look at the box score) and don't realize he lost his lift and possibly some of his speed - if he's not 100% - the bulls are easy to beat
It has been a fun series to watch, especially the physical play between the 4's and 5's. I think you are about my age Statman, and the Hansbrough/Boozer battle is like watching Debusschere and B.Bridges go at it. And Hibbert and Noa seem to dislike each other too. And the best [third man in a fight] J.Foster gets his shots in also. I would love him here next year if he has anything left in a Battie type role.
Suede, I'm a bit younger than you, 76-77 was the first year that I can remember. DeBusschere and Bridges were before my time, but I've been reading about them in some of the books of the era. Bridges must have been an interesting player: tremendous rebounding stats but horrible shooter (was he as bad as his shooting stats show?).
Statman, ugly shot but tough as nails; the era of the 6'6" p.f. may be on the way back.
Nice comparison. Bridges was a great rebounder. Played for the Sixers at the end of his career. The Sixers turned Chet Walker into Jimmy Washington into a washed-up Bridges. That and the Cunningham defection to the ABA crippled the team.
Part exposure, part defense, part Boozer playing like shit.
I'd welcome Indiana to lock into that core thinking that they have something when in reality Chicago has been brutal in that series. I'd rather have Jrue than Collison to start things off.
Then at the center, I hope Roy Hibbert would get better. For much of the credit he has gotten this year, he is essentially Spencer Hawes plus made free throws. He is not a very good player:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hibbero01&y1=2011&p2=hawessp01&y2=2011
Hansbrough is probably what he is, an energy pick and pop guy. I don't see that much improvement from him. Thad's a better piece to have, plus he's well, three years younger. Iguodala's younger than Granger.
I guess the spot they have now is George over Turner, so we'll see how that turns out. I'm not so sure George is going to improve that much. That's just an opinion though.
I agree with all your assessments of their talent level, but one thing they have is shooting ability. I actually thought they may have interest in Elton this summer.
They do have better general shooting across the board, that's a plus.
Well, George is already good enough to shut down the (undeserved) MVP of the league. I think he'll eventually develop an offensive game, a lot of the tools are there.
Turner and George are not separated by much defensively IMO. It's the offense where George is further a long right now.
Umm, how come everyone on the Sixers who's over 22 has topped out, but all the Pacers have upside when George is the only one under 23? Collison, Hibbert, Hansbrough, Rush, McRoberts. They're all pretty much as good as they're ever going to get, right?
Williams: 'We're hopefully headed down to Miami':
http://ow.ly/4FKMX
Jrue is the only Sixer to score in double figures in all three games. Told him that as we walked out of PCOM after practice and he was surprised. Also told him Wade (22) and James (28) have made 50 free throws while the Sixers have attempted 54. He smiled at that one.
Brandon Roy haters? Where you at?
You mean cause he had one good game all his whining and complaining and ego first nonsense is forgiven.
Oh right, I forgot, I live in modern America, memory and attention span are unimportant
The comment wasn't so much about him having a good game, although that was nice. It was more about his teammates giving him a lot of love at the end of the game and being happy for him. For being a whiny, bitchy, ego guy, he sure seems well-liked by the people that matter.
And guess what - you're not one of those people.
And neither are you - but you are petty aren't you?
One game doesn't change how I feel about Roy and what did you honestly expect in public comments from his teammates? They aren't going to say anything negative about him in the moment. Roy cried in the moment after that game AND THEN when he commented on it, he didn't admit he said anything wrong.
I'm aware that my opinon of Brandon Roy doesn't matter to him.
I'm curios why it matters to you though - why you feel the need to take a small sample size and make it more than it is.
One good game out of four is massive failure in basketball (in the major leagues it ain't even a good 'batting average' any more)
I find it funny that you made the 'don't matter' comments - like i really care if brandon roy reads my comments - or blogs matter - or you matter - you don't matter - not to me - you are irrelevant and unimportant and insignificant
As I should be to you (and everyone else who posts here though fascinatingly many seem to think that coming after me affects me in one way or another - no responding to you is not affect - it's enjoyable to me - it took me about 30 seconds to write all this - good break from money making)
I like to think that what I saw immediately after the buzzer sounded was pure and truly team oriented joy. I'm not talking about the public comments made after the game - I'm talking about him getting mobbed by his teammates right after Terry missed the final shot. That's a cool moment IMO that has nothing to do with winning or losing.
Now you can be a cynic and I can be naive and that's fine. What pisses me off is you spouting about so and so being a whiny bitch and not really having a damn clue.
He had a good game last game - what, 17 points on 10 shots or something? And he didn't say anything wrong in the first place! He used to be a superstar and understandably is kind of sad about being so marginalized. And as we've seen the last two games, the only way Portland has a chance is if they get something out of Roy. Otherwise they have no depth and are all Aldridge.
Iguodala and whoever for Brandon Roy and Oden. Pull the trigger!!
That's pretty unfair - i think you have to include Jrue too - to make it balanced - i mean the blazers are giving up a 7 footer
more sarcasm?
A 7 footer who is a question mark. I want Oden more than Roy. Still on his rookie contract so he's not gonna demand much money to resign. IMO Oden's muscles are to strong for his joints and tendons. If he ever ever gets to 80-90% health he could be a beast in the league. Roy's contract is slightly more of a burden but he's as hood as Iggy on two bad knees.