For the record, I typically fall in the "pro-Iguodala" camp. I see him as a somewhat underappreciated top 20-35 NBA player whose top 40 salary is reasonable market value. As the team's best player and only 26-years-old, I was against trading away Iguodala last season at the trade deadline - unless they received something of actual value such as a top 5 draft pick. But some things have changed in Sixersland, so it is time to re-address the situation.
As of last spring the Sixers were underachieving under a bad coach, but had some young talent, a strong interior defender/rebounder, an upcoming high draft pick ... and Iguodala. But as of today the Sixers have zero interior defenders, while adding another promising creator on the wing (Turner) and a bunch of new tall jump shooters of varying ages and skill levels. They have also upgraded their coach and GM.
So compared to last spring the Sixers are arguably more talented and well directed, but even less balanced. They have redundancies of strengths and weaknesses- talented perimeter players who can create, rebound, defend and slash (Jrue, Iguodala and Turner) and multiple tall shooters who can't defend (Young, Nocioni, Kapono, Speights, Hawes, Brackins, Songalia.) The still lack bigs who can play in the post and guards who can shoot (at least in their primary rotation.)
So the question is, with 4 years left on Iguodala's contract, how good can they get while he's still here, and how much of a setback would result from his loss? Arguably - with the emergence of Jrue and the addition of Turner - they have playmakers and glue guys in the backcourt even without Iguodala. Although they have a chance of gaining an identity through a great J/T/I combo, they also are better prepared to win without Iguodala than in previous years. The loss in all around skills can be off-set by what Jrue and Turner can bring. And financially, you can get a solid player to complement Jrue and Turner for much less than what Iguodala makes (say a mid level defender/shooter like Outlaw who just signed for 7M/yr.)
We are also at a point where there is no legit big man answer in sight. Ignore for a second the fact that 9 potential NBA centers were just drafted- next year has little to nothing to offer in terms of defensive bigs (Kanter and Fab Melo?) While the Dalembert trade took on extra salary (Nocioni) that takes the Sixers out of the running for any FA big. So their next chance at acquiring a big is probably 2-3 years away. Are they prepared to go forth with no interior defense for that long? Can they build even the kernel of a winner (at PG/SG/SF) with such a flawed frontcourt and an absence of shooters to spread the floor?
I seriously doubt any combination of Speights, Young, Hawes, Lou or others can land this team a legit big - at least not one without a terrible contract (like Okafor, who Suede interestingly suggested.) And trading Turner or Jrue seems like a shortsighted option. And let's forget about last year's draft for a second - since it is water under the bridge (unless somehow the Sixers can trade for one of those players.)
I'm not going to suggest a specific trade. Others already have thrown names like Okafor, Favors, De'andre Jordan and even Oden out there. So feel free to give your two cents ... But more importantly, can this flawed, redundant but talented team be reshaped in the next 2 years without trading Iguodala? And if his trade is the only solution, what should the Sixers be looking for? (Besides the obvious and painful tanking of the coming season.)
So the question I have is do you favor trying to build an elite backcourt with J/T/I (with strong bench support with Lou/Meeks/Thad) and give Collins and Thorn a chance to work their magic through coaching and shuffling the other pieces ... or is it time to trade Iguodala, the best/only big ticket asset in order to acquire a 3rd young/affordable/complementary piece to build with alongside Jrue and Turner?
I'm on the fence - but would like them to explore an Iguodala trade. Best case - you get a promising young piece in return (Favors as part of a Melo trade would be to good to be true, so maybe aim lower) and position themselves to get another piece in next year's draft. That could result in a core of 4 future elite players - something you can win with and hopefully contend in 2-3 years.
Thanks TK, good topic to chew on over the weekend.
At this point, the ideal would be some kind of solid plan for how the front office plans on filling out the front court and building a team that can legitimately defend. To that end, I wouldn't make any trades right now unless someone just blew my doors off. Instead, I'd head into the season, take my lumps and evaluate our chances in the draft. If we're a bottom five team, then you've got an avenue to make a game-changing addition next summer through the draft. If you're playing middle basketball that will probably net you a pick in the early teens, then I think about pulling the trigger with a specific set of demands for the return on any trade.
It would be shame to never get a chance to see these three guys play together, imo.
Brian sums it up perfectly.
Sometimes this site feels like an echo chamber, with many of us (incuding me) being pro-Iguodala. However, no matter how you view Dre's talent level, we have to give these 3 guys a chance to show what they can do together.
Wow.. just thought about it.. can you imagine what would happen if Iggy got hurt this year? dear god
I don't know. I could picture a 6 month injury (like when Pierce went down the year before the KG/Allan acquisition summer.) In the meantime the team stinks but Speights and Thad put up big numbers, pushing up there value. Then the team has a top 5 pick and some valuable trading assets... putting them in a similar situation to Boston 3 years ago.
They could then deal Speights/Young/Brand/Nocioni and the pick for 2 stud vets or draft a future star and make smaller trades. It would not be the worst thing that could happen.
Of course that's just a fantasy scenario- but I'm not sure I'm liking reality right now. I can very easily see 3 years into the future the team being .500 and having to decide whether to give big contracts to the young players, with still no real frontline star in sight.
Yea, you just made it sound a lot better than how I was picturing it. The team would be lucky to fill a quarter of the WFC though.
I'm really hoping this team surprises me. I guess with such low expectations the season is more likely to be a positive surprise.
Yeah, I'm more just throwing it out there. I think its always good to think both short term and long term. And long term this team needs a legit big. While short term (ie, this season) may or may not lose relevance very quickly aside from seeing how Jrue and Turner develop.
The key question is whether this team can get to somewhere relevant in the next 4 years with Iguodala here. It is definitely a problem, and Iguodala might be the best chip they got to jump start things. I'd love to know what exactly an Iguodala trade could bring. Maybe its just garbage (like we heard at the deadline last year.) But maybe not...
The team needs a core of at least 4 top players with ideally one being a superstar. As it stands, I'm not sure how that happens (unless they get another top pick.) So maybe this means they should have gone with Favors or Cousins- buts that the past. Whereas they need to look at how they can get an elite big. Any other ideas short of an Iguodala trade or hoping they find the right player in the lottery?
I wouldnt trade Iggy. Hes 26, in his prime and hes easily their most entertaining player for the casual or hardcore observer. I get we have no interior D, but were going to have less D over all without him and hell...who would cover the other teams best wing player ? Jrue ? Turner ? Please. Iggys the man. Were just going to have to eat it this year and hope we can draft a solid big.
Next year's draft has no promissing 7 footers. It has a bunch of great PG's, SF's and some skinny 6'10" guys who play like SF's.
Players emerge during the season, but I doubt some stud athletic big with legit center size is just going to materialize out of the woodwork. Guys like Cousins and Favors where projected as top 5 picks before the college sesaon started. And right now the only bigs projected in the top 30 are Kanter and Fab Melo- and neither of those guys seem like they will be the answer.
I understand it is way premature to look this far ahead...
Next year's draft has no promissing 7 footers. It has a bunch of great PG's, SF's and some skinny 6'10" guys who play like SF's.
So it's like just about every other draft.
The selection of Turner and the trading of Sammy Dalembert, pretty much seal the deal on Iggy's future on this team.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Turner fan. But if this team traded down in the draft and did a package like (Cousins+Courtney Lee for Turner) or (Iggy for Al J), then I think Iggy would have been in a much suitable place in this team. I can't blame the management for picking Turner since he seems to be the clear cut for the 2nd overall pick at that time.
It's just that right now, when this team is in deep sh*t with big question marks, so much limited assets and how Turner's addition has made Iggy expendable, I think that he's in a situation where trading him looks like the best for the team for now or for the future.
Good article TK. I would trade Iguodala if we could get Favors, but it doesn't seem like they want to do that. Otherwise, I'd like to wait until right near the trade deadline and see where all the teams are at including the Sixers. It's possible at that time teams will be willing to give a good package for him, whereas right now many teams have their rosters set. And if Iguodala plays well like we expect him to, this can only increase his value. Plus we get a chance to look at JIT for a good part of the season which should be fun.
The one other big man who might be available is Marc Gasol who could be worth inquiring about. The Grizz can't pay both him and Randolph and now they have Thabeet to get minutes for. I guess the Sixers would probably need to find a way to trade Lou and Noc for an expiring and let Thad walk to be able to make a nice offer to him in free agency. But he's the one guy I think has the talent to make a jump like Bogut did last year. If we could get him I think he'd fit in pretty well. Oden has a lot of talent too but just seems like a player who will always have an injury.
I'm all for improving the defense while limiting our long-term risk. This obviously mafe more sense before Speight's injury but I'd consider it seriously. Sure, we'd lose some offense but this kid's ceiling appears much higher:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2fq78sj
I like Ibaka too but i seriously doubt the Thunder would do it. They too need a defensive C...
At this point, we have to be working the phones exploring any/all scenarios to help improve our interior D. Whereas, I see your point, but there may be some interest on their part in Speights/what he brings especially with Cole Aldrich & Krstic on the team as well. Who knows...but if this team is to take any step forward it must look to rid itself of the pieces that don't work/are redundant (Brackins) rather than trading away those that do/are needed most. I mean who here doesn't believe that the most devastating blow to the team's chances this year was Stefanski's idiot decision to get rid of Dalembert which is looking incredibly more stupid with each passing day! Think about it...if we would have kept him we'd still have his defensive presence inside. Plus, given his expiring, we could have traded him for a future big/had the $ (along with our other expirings) to go after a free agent big next season! Again, trading away Dalembert devasted any hope for the season & will continue to haunt us in the future!
I am starting to wonder if our coach is admitting to all of us that Jrue, Iggy and Evan can't work by having to bring in bigs whose main skill is shooting and not focusing on what a big should do.
I am also tired of putting on D.Rose, D.Williams, B.Jennings, etc. etc. and watching them slice like a hot knife through butter because the court is spread and they have a beast down low. I want to see Jrue succeed over Iggy being here. I feel if they felt the same they what of put Jrue and Iggy in a better situation to succeed by getting a shooter plus in a draft night trade or taking Favors or Cousins and giving Meeks, a good compliment to Jrue and Iggy a shot at the s.g. position.
I am tired of mismatched and redundant pieces. Decide who they want, probably Turner because of salary, and make a move like I mentioned this morning, Budinger and J.Hill and cap space and surround our future [Jrue] with pieces that allow him to succeed.
I really like Budinger, that kid is gonna be a player. What a steal in the 2nd round. I would probably do that deal if Houston would give us NY's 2012 pick and take Noc off our hands for either Battier or Jefferies expiring. I believe they have a decent cap execption from the Ariza deal too, right?
We aren't dealing from a position of strength so I don't think we get equal value for Iggy but sometimes a good fit, though less talented, may allow Jrue and Evan and even Thad to a lesser extent blossom. Jason Smith tonight, 23 minutes, 9 reb. and 2 blocks.
Question - would you trade Jrue and Turner, straight up, for Collison and Hibbert?
But only in the 'team sense', and still having Iguodala.
Not even taking into account whether salaries match or anything.....???? Thoughts?
I would rather build with Evan and Jrue but that is intriguing. I just want 5 pieces that work together.
Well, I actually would take Jrue's potential over all that Collison's shown. Better defender, and Collison turns the ball over a lot. I like Hibbert... but do I feel safe giving up Turner for him? Turner could be really good, and if he were, he'd free us to deal Iguodala, let us rebuild, get great draft picks, potentially buy a big man. Arguably both swaps - Jrue for Collison, Turner for Hibbert - are trades downward in terms of talent.
Nope. Hibbert is another poor-rebounding big and I like Jrue better than Collison.
Hell no!!! Jrue will be better than Collison and Hibbert can't rebound and can't run the floor. Hibbert is the worst possible fit for our team...
"I wouldnt trade Iggy. Hes 26, in his prime and hes easily their most entertaining player for the casual or hardcore observer."
And I really disagree with this. Iguodala does a lot but I've always found him singularly dull for what an athletic player he is. I had more fun watching Jrue the other day than I have Iguodala in I don't know how long. And Thad and Speights's rookie campaigns were a lot of fun to watch as well.
The way this roster is set up now, what player from what season could you add that would make then even a .500 team? If you added, say, 1962 Wilt or '99/00 Shaq to this team, how much better would those guys make this team?
If you added either of those guys, you'd be talking championship contender, if not championship favorite, IMO.
I think that is kind of the issue in the NBA. There is very few legit big men -Shot blocker, defender types, I hate to say it like Sammy and even fewer stars like Dwight Howard. So you look at a team like OKC and yest they have a very good perimeter defended in Sefalosha but what makes them solid is when Ibaka comes off the bench. He only averaged 18 mins a game but 1.3 blocks and 5.4 rebounds is very good and he is long. SO I know I mentioned Dampier who probably wouldn't come here but how do you get one of these guys because teams that have then usually don't want to give them up. I am not sure how I would feel about a guy like Okafor.
Whatever player that was added would have less of a chance to succeed than in other situations. Wilt would be tripleteamed [ no shooters], Korver would be pressured [no post threat] and on and on.
Before the draft it was said, best player over best fit, and I agree if he is going to be head and shoulders better and doesn't prohibit the team's 2 best players from succeeding or having to be traded. There is a fine line there and I hope they got it right and I do like Turner.
I don't want to trade Dre simply because I still believe he has more room to grow. If he ever commits to a mid-range jumpsuit or a low post game he'll be dangerous.
Have to take the opportunity when it is there. If we could be the 3rd wheel in a Carmelo deal and get young BIG help then go for it. Favors is best case scenario.
Other than the obvious dream scenario involving Favors...
I'm hoping the Sixers are working the phones and trying to be a facilitator in a Melo trade. I'm just not sure who the Sixers target should be?
Here are some trades, with Melo to the Knicks and Iguodala+ Galinari to the Denver.
Brings back Nene to the Sixers:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2c3ln84
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=298kent
Purges the roster.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2flxc6h
i would love the latter trade to happen! It would leave us with just the young guns and would give us cap space next year. That's only for pure rebuild purposes
Brian, please clear my post. It includes 3 links (to trade machine) so is "under moderator review."
Talkes about possible Melo/Iguodala/Galinari/Nene trades.
Is it time? Yes, it's been time - for awhile. What's with the allegiance and overweening sympathy for a guy who pouts and can't shoot straight? Look at the pictures of him at top of last 2 threads. Sixers can't do without THAT? C'mon Rod, spin Iggy into interior gold, or at least copper. Fill a current need with a hungry big who enjoys lane play.
What's with the allegiance and overweening sympathy for a guy who pouts and can't shoot straight?
jjg: given that you've been one of Iguodala's foremost critics on the 'Net for something going on three years now (ever since the advent of the comment section on philly.com), it's not surprising that you want to trade him -- since you've wanted to trade him for three years (at least). But you of all people (being a Willie Green fan) should know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For the record, I'm an Iguodala fan because he's an elite defender, he's a top 5 rebounder and passer for his position, he's a top 5 transition finisher in the entire league, he's an efficient scorer, and he almost never misses a game because he keeps himself in top shape.
Turning your question around, how would you feel if someone asked you about your excessive allegiance to Willie Green, because he's a below-average rebounder, passer, and defender, can't shoot straight, and makes sad faces every time he gets burned on D? It's fine if you don't like a player, but you can do so without questioning the rationality of those who do.
The selection of Turner and the trading of Sammy Dalembert, pretty much seal the deal on Iggy's future on this team.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Turner fan. But if this team traded down in the draft and did a package like (Cousins+Courtney Lee for Turner) or (Iggy for Al J), then I think Iggy would have been in a much suitable place in this team. I can't blame the management for picking Turner since he seems to be the clear cut for the 2nd overall pick at that time.
It's just that right now, when this team is in deep sh*t with big question marks, so much limited assets and how Turner's addition has made Iggy expendable, I think that he's in a situation where trading him looks like the best for the team for now or for the future.
"Sam Dalembert will mope if he doesn't get sufficient touches, will block shots and rebound and be in constant foul trouble. At best, he's a good backup center"
- Charley Rosen, Fox Sports
That's the same Charlie Rosen that called Willie Green the Sixers best young player.
Rosen is a smart man. Much experience. His is a voice I respect.
Am happy Willie's in NO, playing on a better team than his former one.
Well see, that makes sense.
I believe Charley Rosen's inherent 'clout' comes from his knob slobbering of Phil Jackson?
tell me how you like this trade!
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2c4mfhy
You have not affected the winning percentage of either team.
Had posted a very similar trade regading Thompson. Given that Dalembert is injured at the moment makes it's unlikely to happen soon. I believe he would be good but am dumbfounded as to why we didn't just trade for him instead of Hawes? Further proof I'm afraid of just how stupid the trade was & how, if he had been the target, our interior might not be as soft as it is now!
Its not a bad trade, but not sure it answers any major problems. Thompson is not the physical presence this team lacks, and I'm not sure he projects as an above average NBA starter. But I would not be opposed to the trade- moore as a change of scenery kind of move.
Jason Thompson defense:
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/5/10/1463883/is-jason-thompson-a-good-defender
And compared to Hawes, who stinks defensively: http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/5/13/1470387/grading-spencer-hawess-defense
because it weighs mostly on pEr.
they both have about the same PER
Was kidding with my reply. Haven't seen Thompson play, so I can't judge your hypothetical. My impression is he's an agile young big, not necessarily a tough one; could be wrong. Played his college ball at Flemington Outlets U. And what incentivizes Sac to make the trade? I like Thad though, hope it works out for him in Philly, or elsewhere. Sixers gotta move one of their wings to break logjam, hopefully for inside help.
This is from a recent Bill Simmons article (personally I hate Bill Simmons but he's pretty on point with his NBA knowledge). If the front office knew the Sammy D trade was coming, we probably should have tried harder to trade down and take a position of need:
24. Philadelphia
I thought Evan Turner would be a good pro. Not great … but good. I never thought he would be a bust. But when you talk to NBA people, they keep lobbing red flags in the air about him. Bad body language, a step slow, doesn't really have a position, bad fit with Iguodala, Doug Collins already hates him. … I taped Tuesday's Celts-Sixers game, zoomed through it and was taken aback. That's Evan Turner? The kid I watched on Ohio State last year? He seemed like an Adam Morrison-esque mess. Now I need to see him in person for an official verdict. Either way, Cousins will haunt the Sixers this season. That's a lock.
Had seen that. Most foreboding: "a step slow" & "Doug Collins already hates him" ... the other aspects are solvable.
I find Simmons to be an extremely funny and entertaining fan with virtually no knowledge of the game.
Hey, you give him credit for two more things than I do :)
Exactly
At practice.
Thad Young and Evan Turner are playing with the reserves today -- Young for the second day in a row. Kapono is with the starters. Reserves are leading, 23-17.
Teams: Holiday, Iggy, Kapono, Brand, Brackins vs. Lou, Turner, Young, Nocioni, Songaila.
All this roster and line up switching to me just indicates that Collins finally realizes how screwed up this roster construction is.
I'm again sort of surprised that the 2nd unit won- but its just shows that the team is deep but flat. I'm not sure any 5 man unit makes for an above average NBA unit. Just a lack of star level talent and experience almost accross the board.
Battie and Meeks are subs with first group, with Plaisted and Quinn on second unit.
Reserves win 27-22
Collins on what he's telling the players about changing up the groups: "I said, 'Don't read into it that you've been moved to the second team.' Like yesterday, we moved Thad over there to see how it'd help him. Today, we moved Evan (with Young). I always keep preaching to the guys that I'm still searching, so don't take it like there's a reason this is happening and I'm moving you there. I've got to get a look at this now because once we start (the season), it's going to be tough to try and do that."
Battie scrimmaged, though Speights and Hawes didn't. Speights rode a courtside exercise bike.
OT: http://www.pinnaclesports.com/ContestCategory/NBA+Futures/Regular+Season+Wins/Lines.aspx
I think I may need to bet the Sixers line...
Thaddeus Young on Collins: "Pretty much, he’s looking at a whole bunch of different options. Trying to see who meshes together well. He’s trying to get a feel for who can play with each other and who can’t play with each other. It’s no biggie right now. He’s just going out there trying to figure out how to give the team a chance to win."
Asked who he plays best with, he smiled and said, "It doesn’t really matter for the simple fact that I adapt to those guys."
Link to Saturday practice videos of Collins and Young talking about changing the personnel in practice scrimmages:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/opinions/blogs/intell_blogs/tom_moore.html
If I am Thorn, I wait till the end of Nov. to pull a trade with the Knicks that gets the Knicks Anthony. By then Mozgov can be dealt, I believe, and if we can get him and Gallanari we will have solved 2 of our needs and at a decent price.
Pssft, you think our team is going to take TWO foreign players?
Gettouttahere!
Blog on injured big men:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/opinions/blogs/intell_blogs/intell_blogs_details/article/634/2010/october/17/collins-and-sixers-forced-to-play-small-ball.html
Blog on injured big men:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/opinions/blogs/intell_blogs/intell_blogs_details/article/634/2010/october/17/collins-and-sixers-forced-to-play-small-ball.html
If T.Young could get this team a young big, would ya? Does he have any value? Enough to maybe get Serafin or Alabi or J.Hill? Or swap disappointment for disappointment. [ Brandon Wright?]
Young is way better than any of the guys you just mentioned. It would an atrocity to give up Young just to get a backup big.... Hill and Seraphin may have some promise but i would stay as far as possible from the other two...
I have to say with the way he may not really defend any position reasonably well, is Thad anything more than a sparkplug off-the-bench player? At least on a good team, right?
To me, Thad only has value here if he can hit the 3 and as Rich said, defend at least average and not kill the team that way. I don't know if being on the last year of his deal raises his value or not but if Alabi can become a solid backup center I would consider him. His college team led the N.C.A.A. in field goal % defense, I believe, with him in the middle; maybe he is a good intelligent defensive big like Theo was.
Given our intense need for interior D I think we should look to trade Speights as I'm sure there are teams interested with his ability to score. If they would bite, I would gladly ship both him & Battie to Indiana for Josh McRoberts & Solomon Jones!
A pipe dream at this point given the injury to Speights & since we can't trade Battie until December
I don't really see how either of those guys helps us.
Well, I guess you'd have to convince me that what I'm suggesting would be worse for the team than what you are? We need defense...these 2 play it...Speights & Battie don't & they are all 1 year deals...whatever!
Eh, Jones and McRoberts are borderline NBADL guys. Neither one of them rebounds. I'd rather have Speights' offense than a slight upgrade on defense and below-average play in every other area from those other two guys. And that's assuming they're really defensive upgrades, which I'm not sure of.
I think Spieghts might have a future here, it is finding a compliment to him that they need to focus on. The Battie signing is pissing me off. Three years ago I read he couldn't practice because his knees were bone on bone. If a veteran is here to push and mentor the young guys, he has to practice and play.
Voskuhl was released by the Clipps, if he has anything left he worst case is a hustle guy that sets a good screen and gives a hard foul and may allow Mo to play some p.f. .
Um...the fact that Speights can't stay healthy makes him borderline & his average is only 8 points a game that Songaila, Hawes, Noce or even Brackins can account for. Plus they all rebound/play about as much defense as he does too lol! So...I'm confused...we need to compliment a player who can't stay healthy & who's game can easily be absorbed by another/other players on the team? Wow, with logic like that no wonder you suggest getting rid of Iguodala.
We should target JJ Hickson. Iggy and Reese for Jamison and Hickson would move us toward the right direction. Then try and move Jamison, which should be that difficult.
This is a simple question. And only a simple answer is really needed. Yes. Does he make your team better? SLightly. Can he be replaced by another player on your roster? Yes but not yet. (ET). Is he worth what you are paying him? Probably not. If ET can develop as another playmaker other then JH. Then you absolultely can trade him. Thad and Nocioni, along with Kapono can play the SF position. THey also bring something to the team Dre doesn't. Shooting. I don't see him being a great player ever. THis team won't be a contender with or without him. So why not just trade him for an expiring contract or a pick. THis team won't be good for a couple of years. So i dont see what the big deal is, holding onto him.
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