Sam Amick drops two
Andre Iguodala trade rumor bombshells tonight. One: Andre Iguodala for Lamar Odom and possibly Ron Artest. Two: Andre Iguodala for the number two pick in the draft from Minnesota. My thoughts to follow.
OK, let's start by looking at what each of these rumored deals represents, and look at the other moving parts that would need to be involved:
Deal One: Lamar Odom and Ron Artest for Andre Iguodala. From an immediate impact, on the floor perspective, this deal is by far the best rumor we've heard. Odom is a very good player and he'd offer a dimension at the four Thad does not. Artest isn't as good of a wing defender as Iguodala, but he's no slouch. Financially, this deal is pretty much a waste. Odom has a buyout for the year after next, but Artest is signed for three more seasons. He'd clear a chunk of cap space off the books, but financially speaking, the Kaman deal would clear a lot more. If clearing cap space is the goal, then the Kaman deal is preferable. If you want to deal with the Lakers, then take Artest out of the deal and put Fisher in. That would save the Sixers over $3M this season, and both contracts expire after next season. Of course, if you're making a salary dump deal, then why go for the package that gives you the best team on the floor? That's a mixed goal. Go for Kaman, let the team suck and get a higher draft pick. For the record, I'm not in favor of any of these deals.
Deal Two: The details are severely lacking on this one, but the rub is that the Sixers give up Iguodala and somehow wind up with the number two pick in the draft. With so few details, it's hard to properly evaluate the deal, so I'll just list out what could sink this deal. (a) If the Sixers take back significant contracts that extend beyond Brand's deal, at the most, preferably, they'd take back contracts that expire after next season (b) Iguodala is the only asset the team is losing. I'm not 100% sure the second part of this is a dealbreaker, but I'd love to hold onto the #16 pick in this deal. One variation that works is Iguodala for Michael Beasley (expiring contract is you don't qualify or extend him next summer) and Martell Webster (cheap team buyout after next season). This deal clears out serious cap space, gives you the Derick Williams to add the remaining young core, and then you still have the #16 pick to play with. With Williams in your back pocket, hopefully you'd then aggressively go after Biyombo at #16 (or by trading up to wherever you need to). If the Sixers can come out of this draft with Biyombo and Derrick Williams, well, I'd be ecstatic. If the Sixers had to throw in the #16 pick, I'd probably prefer some kind of an asset to come back from Minny instead of the expiring contracts. Maybe Anthony Randolph.
I could get behind deal number two, maybe in a big way if they could really do something in this draft. Deal number one ranks below the Kaman deal on my list at this point. If you're going to downgrade your talent, don't half ass it, and especially don't take back long term money. Both deal number one and the Kaman deal both fall clearly on the side of "Don't do it," though. Deal two is the first palatable rumor from the Sixers perspective, and I'm kind of hoping it belongs there on its merits, rather than just as a reaction to the terrible rumors we've all been reading for the past several weeks and months.
Just saw on the Twitter that Bucher said it was Luke Walton, not Artest who was the other player. Walton is signed for one year less than Artest, but that's still a garbage deal.
Plus the fact that Lamar Odem would throw a hissy fit if he was traded away from LA. Deal number two I'd probably do, but I doubt Minny gives up both Beasley and the second pick.
God, Beasley really is garbage.
you don't think Doug could get the best out of him? As a throw in on a deal for #2, I think he'd be a great piece to try and tinker with. I doubt they'd include him, Kahn thinks he's a valuable piece for them going forward.
The Doug Collins as a miracle worker theory I never understood. He didn't get the best out of Speights or Turner, why would Beasley be any different?
For the record I think Beasley is good and I'd love to have him, but I can't for the life of me see MIN packaging him the #2 for Iggy.
well, he got the best out of Thad and Lou, both players who came in and provided scoring punch off the bench. Who's to say Doug can't do that to Beasley? He's more talented than both of them.
Lou had one of the worst shooting years of his career?
Thad I agree with.
you say that, but he did what Doug asked him to do, and he did it reasonably well. I don't even like Lou, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think he was an integral part in many of the Sixers wins last year.
He also had an integral part in many losses. You have an integral part in everything when you're among the league leaders in shots per minute.
Think about that. Among the league leaders in shots per minute, but shot the worst percentage on the team.
I'm not nearly as high on Collins as others, and his being completely enamored with Lou's "shoot all day, only pass a last resort, and don't bother trying on defense" game is a big reason why.
Lou Williams had a better season last year under eddie jordan than under doug collins.
Collins gets all this credt (and none of the blame) for this year
Collins is not a miracle worker, thad young was awesome - yay he reproduced his rookie year numbers
I think Rambis got the best out of him last year, and it was still garbage. Give him way too many possessions to use and he'll score inefficient points for you and play no defense. That's who he is.
That's more than likely true, but as a throw in on a deal? I think that's a pretty solid throw in.
He's an expiring contract and nothing more in my book. If Kahn values him more than that, that's his problem. The deal also works with Flynn, Pekovic and Webster going to the Sixers. They all expire after this season, so it's the same deal to me. Let them keep Beasley.
What about Iguodala & #16 for #2, Wes Johnson, Tolliver (exp.) and Webster (exp.)?
I think it's fair for both teams, and Jrue/Turner/Wes Johnson/DWilliams would work really well.
I'd rather hold onto #16 than take Wes Johnson, actually. I'd still be holding out hope that they could turn #16 into Biyombo, somehow.
See, this is the thing I don't get about the Iguodala rumors. Every one of them says the Sixers need to save a certain amount of money. If that's the case, they should just trade him to Cleveland for the 4th pick and be done with it. They've been shopping that pick all over the league. What am I missing here?
Well there's 2 sides to a trade, so that's one thing that might be missing. Cleveland offered a trade exception for Iggy, according to the rumors. It would be quite the jump to go from offering air to offering the #4 overall pick.
I think Cleveland wants to get more picks, not less. They're rebuilding.
Cleveland would do that deal, they've been wanting to use that trade allowance on a good player since they lost LeBron. The only problem is the Sixers don't want to do a deal for just a draft pick. Not that I blame them, but it's much better than getting Kaman.
I don't think "wanting to use the trade exception" extends to giving up the #4 pick to use it.
Sigh
So the rumor about the cavs offering #4 for Iguodala straight up doesn't count for you either ?
Never saw that rumor. I saw that they offered it for Gay and were turned down. The only Cleveland rumor I've seen was the trade exception.
You selectively see what you want to see - it's become rather obvious
Doesn't matter, he's worth the #2 pick, or more.
Well then "according to rumors" why have they called half the teams in the league trying to move the pick?
Calling around doesn't equate to trading it.
You know, you should really be more positive about this. If we were to trade up to #4 it would virtually guarantee us being able to select Vucevic before anyone else.
HA! Comment of the draft season.
Haha. Believe me, if Cleveland offered us the #4 pick for Iggy, I'd drive him there myself. I'm just objectively predicting it won't happen.
So pumped about getting Vucevic at 16 anyways, more drama on this blog that way. The reaction will be incredible.
I don't know Brian, I think Artest is a slouch at this point. If he's not completely done, I think he's close.
So if we get the No. 2 pick, who do we take?
If it's me, I'm taking Derrick Williams, without a doubt.
Derrick Williams and you don't think twice about it.
the funny part is that according to his twitter, he's actually out to dinner with Iggy tonight
DWilluofA23 Derrick Williams
About to eat with the former #wildcat himself .. andre iguodala
I'd go with Kanter. Seems like he has potential to be a star center. And Calipari's recruiting history is pretty amazing, I trust that guy as a judge of talent more than anyone in the world.
Calipari's PG recruiting.
True, but to be fair, he did recruit Camby, one of the greatest to ever play the game. :)
Mostly PGs, but also Marcus Camby and Demarcus Cousins. Cousins is a headcase and I wouldn't want him on my team, but the talent is unquestionably there. Kanter doesn't seem to have a history of attitude problems so less of a concern there.
You put Cousins in the same sentence as one of the greatest of all time? How dare you! JK. :)
ha
Odom/Artest would be a pretty solid return. Iggy for the #2 and Beasley I just can't imagine happening. I would think they'd make us take crap like Darko in return for the #2.
I find it really hard to believe MIN went from offering Jonny Flynn to offering the #2 pick. One or both of these rumors was crap (I'm leaning towards both).
Sorry, you don't get to cherry pick your rumors in reverse now. Since you believe every rumor you read, Iguodala is now worth the #2 pick, and more.
I'm not cherrypicking, since I said it casts doubt on both MIN rumors. There's no way both are true. I didn't say one seemed more likely than the other. Seeing them come in as rumors in consecutive days, I'm inclined to believe neither.
You haven't earned that right. From now on whenever you say something about how little worth Iguodala has around the league, look at the crap offers they're getting, I'm going to read it as "Iguodala is worth at least the number two pick." You made your bed.
Well we'll see what he actually pulls in. If it's anything resembling a top pick, I will gladly eat my words and celebrate. I think it's unlikely but hope I'm wrong.
Darko didn't have a bad year last year, he can block shots and he's a big boy. I think he'd take away minutes from your boy big spence though
Darko is awful I think, but I'd take him back to get the #2 pick. Even if he took some minutes from Hawes haha. Nonetheless I don't buy the rumor for a second, Amick's source was a "rival GM" i.e. someone with no knowledge at all.
What if the Lakers so wanted AI that they would trade us Gasol. Sure, he is 30, but he could have 3 good years in him.
The lakers aren't idiots
Let me just say 0- in advance - Jay Bilas is a douche
Trade #1 doesn't make any sense. This trade doesn't bring the Sixers better talent, younger talent, cheaper talent or even cap space. I can live with a Kaman trade because he was an expiring contract who would worsen the team an eventually get us a higher draft pick. Damn- Imagine if the lakers traded Bynum for Howard....
Howard
Gasol
Iguodala
Kobe
Fisher
If it's Walton it makes shorter contracts and lamar odom gives them 'size' so maybe they think that's an improvement?:)
sometimes when I catch Luke Walton in Lakers games, I'm almost positive that he's the worst player currently in the NBA
and yes I know he'd never see the floor and it's just his contract. Just saying, watching him play is astonishing
Luke Walton was a fine basketball player until he was taken down by chronic back issues. He has ability, he's just always hurt.
agreed, its ugly to watch now. The back issues run in the family, have heard some horror stories about the struggles Bill has had with his back later in life.
Did you hear Bill Walton when he said Greg Oden should just retire - that he'll never be healthy and he's just going to suffer later in life if he keeps trying
Laker fans HATE Walton so much, they have no sympathy
Yes, he'll suffer. Poor guy will sit on a bench all season, get treated by the best physicians in the world AND make 8 million a season.-just for his "potential"
Also are we seriously trading our best player (who is 27 years old) for contracts that are going to expire TWO years from now?
Not to play devils advocate or anything, but Lamar Odom is not a horrible basketball player.
He's better than ellis or kaman
but he's a rental, at least in the Kaman deal you're getting a young asset in Aminu(I don't think much of him but at least its something) along with the expiring
This deal would do nothing more than keep you afloat for a year.
The Kaman deal doesn't keep you afloat for a year, Aminu is a maybe but I don't believe he's in the deal yet.
what's the point of staying afloat for a year with Odom though is what I'm saying??
You're still not winning anything, but you're at best good enough to get bounced in the first round yet again.
At least with Kaman, you'll suck and get a decent draft pick as a result, and I think Aminu was definitely on the table.
I wouldn't make a single god damned Iguodala trade rumored - they're all crap
but from a basketball standpoint - Odom is THE BEST player mentioned so far in the deal
definitely. I think I'd make some variation of the Wolves trade if that's really out there
I don't believe the wolves rumor is even as tangible as this lakers nonsense - i think the wolves nash thing got wrapped up with the rambis fired thing and the iguodala thing and someone got frisky with a trade machine :)
that's a possibility. However, you know there's some serious pressure on the Wolves FO to show some improvement. Love has said he's not going to sign any extensions until he sees the team taking steps in the right direction. Hard to argue that they won't be a better team with Iguodala.
They wanted Nash with the #2
Nash (to me) is probably over rated at this point - he's old - and he won't help Minnesota (and they have 500 point guards) for one season - but they think the #2 gets them Nash who is more name than productivity right now but his 'value' is more than Iguodala (shouldn't be in my opinion for a young team like the wolves who need to learn to defend, but he is)
Agreed, Odom is definitely the best player we've seen in rumors. I also dig Artest.
What's the deal with Aminu as the second coming? What has this guy ever done?
A. I'm glad you dig Artest, he sucks, he's in love with taking 3 pointers, and a lunatic, but then again you dig Hawes
B. It's no longer Artest in the rumor, it's Walton
C. Aminu was a rookie last year - what the hell would you like him to have done. If you haven't heard of him - he doesn't count? You value Spencer Hawes - your talent evaluation skills are seriously in question
Walton is one of the worst players in the league, that's a lame change to the trade rumor. Aminu didn't have to be a star as a rookie, I just can't figure out why so many here are acting like he's a make-or-break piece of an Iggy trade. Seems like a joke in return for Iggy.
I'd rather get Jordan Hamilton, Biyombo, etc. in a trade for Iggy than Aminu.
I'd rather the sixers have walton collecting dust than Artest. Great he thanked his shrink when they won a ring, he's horrible on the court, bad for a team that wants any sort of system and bat guano crazy and off his meds most of the time (it seems)
How is David Kahn not fired?
Glen Taylor gets a pass cause he's in Minnesota, but man that franchise is AWFUL - aside from lucking into Garnett have they done much else right?
Why would you wait so long to fire a guy so obviously out of his depth?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6694528
Bergs still smelled fishy - this smells more accurate - they hate each other still
Players are just being obnoxious for show. Stern withdrew pretty much all his NFL-style demands (no guaranteed contracts, hard cap with no exceptions), it's just over cash differences now, which they'll split when it gets down the wire (not necessarily the July 1 wire, but by end of September at the latest I think).
God - did you read the article?
No they aren't being obnoxious for Show. Bergs article was leaked to him by someone on the ownership side in an attempt to paint the players into a corner and the players fired back, hard.
Read the article, read it closely, an agreement IS NOT close, and the players are making it clear that they don't agree on anything that berg said they did.
Berg got played, unsurprisingly - I said this morning the article was bull, and the players came out and made it clear, an agreement isn't close.
The more and more I see the more I realize your 'act' isn't really an act, you're just that dazed.
Berger didn't say it was close, at least that's not what I took away from it. The key from his report was the idea of a flex cap and at least a number to start w/.
Berger put a shiny positive 'owner' spin on these things. The players obviously shot back and said 'blow me'
I think it's interesting that the players would agree to a hard cap - if they get 60% of the BRI
I think they need to first agree on what 'operating expenes' off the top are and I don't think theyre close.
Read the espn article closely, read the rhetoric and the intensity - calling out Dan Gilbert is as close to accusing of collusion as i've seen in a long while, the comments about no way will they do a 10 year deal (cause of the new tv deal in 4), the fighting over the escrow, the bitterness in everything they say.
Bergers story presented one side of the story, ESPN got the other, put em together, and this shit (and it's shit) still ain't close and I still don't believe the season is starting on time.
I never said the players agreed on anything. I said the players are being obnoxious for show. There's a difference.
The owners completely retracted from the two big things they wanted: an end to guaranteed contracts and implementation of hard cap. The players are yelling like these moves aren't concessions, which is ridiculous on its face.
It's all about meeting somewhere in the middle on money now. The fundamental differences have been eliminated since the owners dropped those two major, radical demands.
It'll get done. Players are just blowing smoke. Every time there's a labor issue, the big hurdle is the structural differences. We've already moved past that. Dollar differences always get settled at the deadline, I'm not concerned anymore about losing many games.
You really believe that don't you? You really have no freaking clue?
You think the players are going to choose missing games (and thus no income) over 54% vs. 50% of basketball income?
They got their guaranteed contracts, that's what they wanted. If you think they're going to choose unemployment, I think you are incorrect.
So your dream scenario:
Bismack
Williams
Barnes
Turner
Holiday
I honestly don't think this is a championship lineup down the road, but it is very exciting.
BTW, I don't see the Sixers spending money on two draft picks in the top 20 this year.
The #16 pick is $1.4M. I don't think that's really enough of an expenditure for them to worry about.
TheHoopsReport
BREAKING: I was told by a trusted league source today at NBA Draft media day that Bismack Biyombo has a medical red flag with his back.
If Biyombo slips past 9, he could easily slide to 19, or even further, a la DeJuan Blair when he had his medical red flag.
The source said they still expect Biyombo to be drafted either at 8 by the Pistons or 9 by the Bobcats, despite the back issue.
The hoops report is the one that sometimes can't even spell English words properly?
yeah, I don't know. your guess is as good as mine. I've never even heard of that place, just thought it might interest the depressedfan chapter of Team Biyombo
That same report says there is less than a five percent chance iguodala is traded by tonight -says rumors are just unsubstantiated rumors- so thats also encouraging.
Hope this rumor makes the rounds. Jrue apparently dropped because of a BS shoulder red flag.
I really hope he isn't available at 16 - i can't handle the scream that i'll hear cross country when they don't take him :)
Two questions
1. Does Sam Amick have credibility (I know he works for SI - but does he have a history of being on it?)
2. Does it smell to anyone else like the sixers are just calling every team, saying 'make your best offer for Iguodala', and somehow they're all getting leaked by folks who like to show people they have 'inside info'?
Don't know about Amick. The Iguodala thing could be working the other way as well.
Ok - maybe it is - maybe teams smell blood in the water are making an offer and then leaking it?
But there's just TOO many offers from TOO many teams to me - it sounds like some sort of clearing auction, not like any of these are serious negotiations - just a 'what can we get' thing - either the sixers for iguodala or every tam seeing if they can get iguodala on the cheap because of a pending sale.
Tomorrow I expect to hear a Kings, Rockets, and Bucks rumor
Amick quoted a "rival general manager" as saying Iggy for the #2 was "definitely real." That sounds as unreliable a source as one can find. The rival GM is obviously not privy to any communications between MIN and PHL, so I don't see how Amick can even publish that. It's like quoting Ralph Nader about what Obama and Boehner discussed on the golf course.
Who is a rival of the T'Wolves?
haha trying to think if Garnett built any rivalries before he was traded? It could be a Sixers rival too I suppose (also limited--Knicks, Nets, Celtics I guess?). Or Amick could be using the term "rival" to mean "any GM not of the Sixers or Wolves," but thinks "rival" sounds more convincing. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I think most of the rumors are just one-source, completely unreliable leaks that the reporters use to get attention. It's grossly irresponsible journalism, but they're never held to account for being wrong, and it's increases their page views (which probably factors into their job security and salary), so they just keep going with it.
No rumor seems to ever come from the Philly reporters, who are pretty cozy with the Sixers brass (in a vomit-inducing way). Which I think tells us that the guys who report the rumors (Amick, etc.) are never double-checking sources, which is something I thought was taught in Journalism 101.
Ugh, Kemba Walker slipping apparently. Sixers have absolutely no use for him.
He's all the excuse they need to trade away Lou :)
If Cle wants the 16th pick+Iggy for #2, i'd like to get the 32nd pick back as well. Good bit of talent there.
Cleveland doesn't own the #2 pick
Looking at draftexpress's latest mock it may be a good year to acquire a mid 1st rounder. Some interesting names in our area. If we could get a big and either Burks or Hamilton maybe they keep Iggy. They may feel they can compete next year with that group.
If there is ANY deal that gets us the #2 for Iguodala - and allows us to keep #16 - I am down.
A core of Holiday, Turner, Williams, Thad and (fingers crossed) a decent big at 16 looks pretty good to me.
So you'd trade Iguodala for the #2 pick and only the #2 pick then?
A core that requires Thaddeus Young to be a starter isn't a good core
I've recently read that the Sixers would put Odom at the 5 like he played for Coach K in the Olympics if the Sixers were to acquire him. Also I read that if Sixers did get the 2 pick they would have to give up 16 along with Iggy.