A decent night at the Wach, for once. The Sixers played hard, they played well
and they lost, handily. 71 games into this lost season, that's pretty much the best-case scenario. Sad, right?
Kapono in the starting lineup? If that didn't signify a white flag to you, I don't know what will. The logic behind it wasn't absurd, I suppose. Lou Williams was out, so Jordan didn't want Jrue and his backup "point" guard Willie Green both in the starting lineup. He did have the option of going with Carney in the starting lineup, but whatever.
Truth be told, if the starters could've stayed out of foul trouble and played 40+ minutes each, the Sixers may have had a chance to win this game. Elton Brand was a beast in the first half, and no one SVG put on him could do much to slow him down. In the second half, Andre Iguodala stuck his jumper in his back pocket and went to work. He drove the lane to kick out, he drove the lane to score. He absorbed contact and finished. He basically did everything Andre Iguodala has done for the entirety of his career, save this season. In fact, Van Gundy had to resort to double teaming him to slow him down. Dalembert was up to the challenge against Dwight Howard, Jrue shot poorly for the second consecutive game, but made up for it with 7 dimes and three steals. And Kapono sort of stayed out of the way and tried not to be too much of a liability. The starting lineup was actually +7 in the game, which I find significant when you're talking about a 16-point loss.
The bench, however, was a complete disaster. Smith and Speights combined to shoot 1/12 from the floor, Carney was a dismal 3/11. They were thin on the bench and it showed.
According to Eddie Jordan, Orlando just made shots. Which is the theme to his defensive philosophy, if guys would just miss wide-open shots, the Sixers defense would look pretty good.
Filed under "Why the hell would they do that," is the report that came out earlier regarding Andre Iguodala's health. Apparently, he's been playing with plantar fasciitis, a painful sprain in the foot. I realize Iguodala's a tough guy, a men among men in this league with his unbelievable ability to stay on the floor, but there's no reason for it right now. None whatsoever. I can get why he wants to be on the floor. If it was me, you'd have to drag me off, but the team really needs to step in. Dei Lynam said favoring the wounded foot has actually caused some pain in the other foot. That's a recipe for disaster. There's nothing to be gained by playing him injured for the next 11 games. The team really needs to sit him down. He's logged so many minutes, and each player only has a finite number in his career, let's not waste anymore on this lost season.
Player of The Game: Iguodala, 23, 6 and 6
Team Record: 24-47
Up Next: Wednesday, @ Milwaukee
In case you were wondering, none of the teams the Sixers are battling for lottery balls won. Sacramento lost to the Grizzlies, unfortunately. The Sixers end the night tied for the 6th-worst record in the league.
Sixers continue to be last in 3-point defense at 39.8 percent.
http://www.phillyburbs.com/opinions/blogs/intell_blogs/tom_moore.html
Asked Iguodala about his foot.
Iguodala said he doesn’t to make excuses, but admitted he’s been playing with plantar fasciitis in his right foot for “about 2 1/2 weeks.” Plantar fasciitis is irritation and swelling of the thick tissue on the bottom of the foot. Iguodala has changed shoes twice, which seems to have made the condition a little more manageable for him.
“When I’m playing, I try to block it out,” he said. “I think I do a pretty good job of tuning it out. The only thing it limits is practice time and shooting before the game. When I sit down for a minute or two, it’s hard to get warmed back up.”
The only cure is rest, which Iguodala will be able to do in three weeks.
IMO he can start resting today.
Your pictures are always spot on. That Jrue picture where you say he has more minutes than willie green is top 10. Thank you.
Fasciitis is a bitch...I've had it, and just walking can be amazingly painful. If he's had it for 2 weeks+ the sixers need to shut him down and if no one noticed they need to fire their training staff.
I don't know if it's the injury, the lack of practice time/reps or a combination of both, but Iguodala's form on his jumper has completely regressed. He's almost at the point where he's jumping off one leg, and then sort of landing with his feet spread way apart.
He seems fine when he's out running, and he made some sick moves off the dribble last night. Is this the type of thing that could really affect you when you land from a jump? I don't think I've ever had the injury, or at least not seriously. Not sure how the pain would manifest itself.
It causes pain when you just walk, so depending on the severity it could affect his jump and or landing...i'd be interested to see when his shooter went to crap (even for him) compared to when the injury actually happened.
He shouldn't be playing if he's hurt...there's NOTHING to play for
OK, so I believe I've been able to pull Chad Ford's draft ranking for the Sixers out of the Lottery/Mock Draft machine. Looks like this:
1. Wall
2. Turner
3. Cousins
4. Favors
5. Wesley Johnson
6. Aminu
7. Ed Davis
8. Aldrich
9. Whiteside
Personally, once you drop below five I don't know what I'd do.
Cousins and all his red flags are a concern, but I believe that after 5 in this draft you're going more project than prospect. Yeah the top 5 are projects as well but more 'refined' projects - you can have an idea what you're getting.
That's where DiLeo comes in and with Speights and his work ethic issues and Thads regression, I'm wondering how good is he really...but I guess I'm going to have to depend on him because i think 5/6 is where they're picking.
"Personally, once you drop below five I don't know what I'd do."
I just did a little light statistical analysis:
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=997328#p22788809
Upside: assuming we finish with 5th-7th worst record, odds are good (about 65%) that we end up with pick number 6 or 7.
Overall a tough spot to draft in.
Overall odds of a top 3 pick: about 22%
Odds for a top 3 pick:
5th: 33%
6th: 21%
7th: 15%
8th: 10%
Big difference between #5 and #8, huh?
Yes... but the takeaway message IMO is that we most likely will end up picking 6th or 7th. Which is disappointing.
Better than 10th or 12th.
Flynn, Curry
Love, Gallinari
Yi, Corey Brewer
Brandon Roy, Randy Foye
Martell Webster, Charlie V
Childress, Deng
Kaman, Hinrich
Dajuan Wagner, Nene
Battier, Eddie Griffin
DeMarr Johnson, Chris Mihm
Last decade of #6 and #7 picks. Not a pretty group, overall.
Its always a weak spot. Teams that bad want a superstar, so they often over-reach for high ceiling guys that turn out to be busts. While the players with both high ceilings and lower risk tend to be top 5 picks.
Also, looking back 25 years there has been only one star drafted #6: Roy.
After Roy the next best players are Hersey Hawkins, Kaman, Kenny Smith, Battier and Antoine Walker. Everyone else was pretty much a bum.
http://www.82games.com/nbadraft2.htm
Generally speaking who was drafted at a position matters much less to me than who was available at a position, unless you think there's some mystical foo preventing teams from making proper evaluations at 6 that doesn't exist at 8.
Yes and no.
It is not luck or "mystical." As I said above, teams at six are less likely to settle for a guy without big upside than a team drafting 9th or 10th. So the best player might be an Aldrich, but the team at 6 will swing for the fences and go for a riskier/upside pick like Whiteside.
This is a rough generalization...
IMO the high upside/low risk players go 1-5.
The High upside but risk of bust go 6-9
10-20 tend to be either low upside/low risk or high upside huge risk.
That is why 10th often does better than 6th. Teams see Brook Lopez as low upside/low risk and he drops to 10th... but at #6 someone swings for the fences with Yi.
I think derek's point was that you need to look through the entire draft to see who was good AFTER six as well
for instance in the deng draft (obviously) iguodala goes 9th...
"That is why 10th often does better than 6th. Teams see Brook Lopez as low upside/low risk and he drops to 10th... but at #6 someone swings for the fences with Yi."
Without trust in my front office, it's hard to have faith in any plan materializing. If there's talent available (and, in theory and in practice, there's more talent available at 6 than at 10), I expect my front office to successfully find that talent.
Do you still have as much faith in DiLeo after the seasons from Young and Speights?
I think I want to hold off judging Speights and Thad on this year, at least a little bit. The entire roster regressed, it's a wasted season of development, and it's going to be another upheaval for both of those guys when a new coach is brought in this summer, but you don't expect young players to get worse as they get more experience. To certain degree, this season just needs to be written off.
I'm judging Speights on his development from last year to this year - and there's none - and comments from various sources (including the GM) that the work ethic 'concerns' were very real and obvious before he was drafted.
As for Thad - I worry he's more athlete than player and with a low b-ball IQ.
Given where they were picked, I don't think either will turn out to be a bust. they have flaws, but most picks in that range have flaws. The same thing likely will be said about Jrue in 2 years.
Yeah, my point isn't that these guys are untouchable to me. Just that I'm not going to completely write them off based on this season. If there's a move to be made involving either that makes sense, by all means make it. If they're still here when the new coach is brought in, I'm not going to immediately start looking at either like they're Willie Green, yet. Jodie Meeks, however, hasn't shown me anything. We could've had Jimmer with that second-round pick :)
To be clear I'd always rather pick 6th as opposed to 10th. It's just that there is a much bigger drop off most years from 4 to 6 than there is from 6 to 10.
This franchise desperately needs a star (and to replace the Ed's.) If they cannot get a star this year I'd rather they have another down season than bounce back to being .500 with a flawed roster.
Yes. Speights was a high risk/high reward pick that I have no problem them making. Young I still have faith in when he gets away from this nimrod of a coach. I don't label young a low IQ player.
yeah, if you are going to Draft Young at age 19, it means waiting a few extra years to see if he can grow his game.
if anything, they promise he showed as a rookie was more opportunistic than suggesting he was ready to carry the load on a weak team like this one.
I am pretty much resigned to the opinion that Iguodala/Thad will not be a great SG/SF combo anytime soon.
Speights carried much of the load yesterday. I don't know if we can expect such clutch performances from him in the future.
Kapono and Smith did their usual. These guys need more minutes.
As long as you don't expect anything from Speights defensively (or in the passing department) you should be fine
He was talking about Speights helping them lose.
Speights and Thads regression bothered me the most but I still have hope for Thad. As far as speights, I have given up all hope on his future.
I think the loss of miller hurt Thad the most, along with going to the bench because once again iggy couldn't get it done at the 2.
Iguodala in Cooney's article:
Yes, it IS an option. It's the smart option. Ugh.
But then he won't get his 'most minutes played' award which i have deemed the dumbest award in professional sports (but not the dumbest name, lady bing wins that)
It's not meaningless. But if that's really what he wants, he can sit the final 2 or three and still win it. He's almost 100 minutes ahead of Rudy Gay right now.
I personally thin kit's a meaningless award
then again i think cal ripekns 'iron man' streak was one of the more selfish streaks
When pursuing an individual accomplishment hurts the TEAM it's not only meaningless to me - it's seflish - if his motivatino is the idiotic most minutes played award - but it costs him injury/rehab team - it's stupid AND selfish.
The other option- drift out to the perimeter and jack up 6 3's a game :)
No Williams or Young for Wednesday's game.
Jordan Tuesday, when I asked if not being able to make the playoffs changes anything for him in the last 11 games: "No, it doesn't change anything. We want to be competitive. We want to continue to teach and develop and try to continue to show the team how to continue to play as a team and help each other, so we can win ballgames. We've done everything, outside of the physical part of it -- we're still doing the mental, the walkthrough, the film, developing, shooting -- the skill work (in practice). (We're) just not scrimmaging because of the schedule (so many games)."
Iguodala said it's important to him to play all 82 games and he doesn't want to sit out, even with the plantar fasciitis.
Is it important to him that he be HEALTHY for the team going forward?
Cause seriously - that's a pretty selfish god damn approach and pisses me off more about Iguodala than anything else in his career and i'm very pro iguodala but his dogged determination to play all 82 games is selfishly motivated if he's injured.
The correct resonse is let his ass start - call time out on the first possession and sit him the rest of the game - there you played all 82 games - i hope you're happy
Jordan, asked if Holiday would be any different now if had played more early: "I don’t know. I think he had to learn how to play in the NBA. We had a team full of veterans, a core group of guys we wanted to blend together, develop chemistry. It was a new dimension for all of us because you miss certain people from last year (Andre Miller anyone!). We started out with Lou as a guard, Andre as a guard. We wanted to see if Thad could play some small forward to go with Elton, who didn’t play a lot last year. Willie was a veteran coming off the bench – very solid. There was the known. The known was known – Jrue was the unknown. He just had to go through the rite. It worked out pretty well. … It was the right way to develop him, I thought."
I agree with this for the most part. Its not like we knew going into the year that the season was going to be a wash.
He is the youngest player in the league and didn't even play the point last year at UCLA, so I didn't have a problem with bringing him along slowly.
I have a problem with HOW he was brought along - good games followed by a series of DNP-CD, sitting him pre season against the knicks because of his 'psyche'.
Joran can spin it anyway he wants now - but if it worked out it worked out in spite of him not because of him.
Fair point. He wasn't rewarded with minutes for playing well, which is how it should be.
And his coach was fearful of his psyche pre-season against a midget...
On the flip side, some of Jrue's sky high confidence level has to do with the fact that:
1. He knows he has deserved his increased minutes and starting spot.
2. At least for the past month he knows he can make mistakes without losing his minutes.
I think EJ is a loser, but the way he went from making Jrue a starter with limited minutes to eventually a starter with heavy minutes has been spot on IMO. You want to increase a young players minutes while keeping their confidence level high.
Although I concede that prior to ES ordaining Jrue as a starter he was jerked around by EJ.
Although I concede that prior to ES ordaining Jrue as a starter he was jerked around by EJ
And without that ordaining (publicly no less) when do you suppose Joran would have inserted Jrue into the starting lineup (without being forced to by injuries)
I asked Jordan if he's thinking about shutting Iguodala down with his plantar fasciitis): "I wouldn’t shut anybody down unless the doctors or my training staff tells me to do that. I want our best players on the floor so we can win games."
Do you have access to the docs/trainer...curios how they think
We're not supposed to talk to them, but I do occasionally. Didn't see either today at practice.
More Jordan on Holiday's adjustment to the NBA: "There’s a lot of things you have to be taught. Even though he’s very good defensively, he has to know how to play NBA defense. Because he’s defensive-minded and knows how to play, he caught on very quickly. You have to know how to run a team. It’s hard being a rookie running a team full of veterans – telling a guy where to go, what set you want to be in and that sort of thing. You have to get used to it."
Note to EJ: do not "teach" Jrue anything. Also do not let Ayers anywhere near his jumpshot.
Leave any fixing to the next coach.
Iguodala: "I think it’s important (to play all 82 games). No matter what the situation may be, you’ve got to go out there and you’ve got a job to do. Also, showing the young guys how we want things to work – just try to lay the foundation. That’s definitely a goal of mine."
Personally, I think it's admirable that Iguodala wants to play all 82 games, even in this lost season. We get on guys for just collecting the paycheck, but everyone in the league should really have that goal and it is a form of leadership. It's like asking the players to stop trying to win because losing is better for the franchise. You don't want that, you don't ever want players coasting because they don't want to win.
It's up to the franchise to realize Iguodala needs to sit, and also to realize they need to lose these games. You take the decision out of Iguodala's hands whether to play or not. You cut back on the minutes for Brand and Dalembert. You get extra minutes for Smith, Speights and Meeks (which they have been).
The team and the coach are the ones who have to realize this season is over, and they have to act accordingly. It's not up to the players to quit and lost on purpose, or shut themselves down with injuries that they can play through.
I think it's asinine to play hurt just to get into 82 games - and that it's selfish - it's not bout the team - it's about him getting his 82 games in...
Talk to the trainer - if the trainer says play play ir the trainer says don't play - don't play - he is an employee of the team.
If he won't do what his boss says the team has options - of course they'd just piss him off
But this is a selfish move by Iguodala and I hope it doesn't have nay long term implications
I want a player who feels like he can play night in and night out.
I want a coach with enough common sense and clout to be able to tell him it's best for the team to sit down and get healed.
I want a player who cares about the team more than himself - who sees when he's playing like crap and realizes he's injured and that playing isn't doing the team any good right now and that fixing his foot now is more important than appearing in all 82 games.
If that's your barometer, answer this. Is the team going to play better if Iguodala is out of the lineup? Even if he isn't 100%, do they have a better option?
Are they going to be better thisseason?
Of course not -
Are there games past this season and is he risking further injury by playing with this injury - possibly - we can't know that - but since the sixers training staff isn't available to the media (which is odd) then yo uhave to wonder where THEY stand on it.
Maybe someone should ask the GM when they see him how he feels about Iguodalas need to play injured when he's playing like garbage and the games are irrelevant and he's delaying his rehab and risking further injury
Flip the coin for a second. What if the trainer was saying, "Sure, you can play." But Iguodala was saying, "Hey, I'm not going out there when I could get hurt." Then what would you think of him? What would the press and a fanbase that already mostly doesn't like him or appreciate him have to say?
I never bought into the whole nonsense of 'playing through the pain' if there's a risk of greater injury especially in a lost season - i'd think he's a moron.
And eveyrone would praise him and then the MOMENT he got hurt everyone would turn on him for being an idiot and not healing better.
Point is - we don't know what the training staff is saying and seems that beat writers aren't supposed to talk to them (which I just find odd)...there's no reward to playing injured in this situation but there's a huge risk
You didn't read what I said. I asked what would happen if the trainer said he was fine to play and he refused. He'd get killed, murdered by the press and the fans, most likely. Stephen A. Smith would an expose on how gutless he is.
Yeah, I don't see it as selfish. If you can play, you do play. Doesn't matter if it's the 7th game of the finals, or the 82nd game of a meaningless season. That's the mentality all players should have. It's the team's job to sit him down. His answers didn't say "I really want to get the most minutes award," they said "I want to play every game, and if I can, I will," to me. That's admirable. The alternative is a guy who misses 3 weeks with every minor sprain and strain (looking at you, Brandon Roy).
Iguodala on if the Bucks' turnaround gives him hope the Sixers can do the same: "In this league, you can be good or bad pretty fast. It’s always a year or two from either end of the spectrum. It’s all about finding the right piece at the right time."
Andre
Does the Bucks turn around coinciding with the trade for John Salmons, is that just more evidence that willie green was a terrible terrible mistake by bald billy?
Nah, the Buck's are just the 2007/08 Sixers amking there run. they are fooling themselves if they think they have a long term winner ion the making.
Maybe Salmon's is their Andre Miller?
I'm mostly teasing about that (mostly cause given the choice Salmons was the one to keep over the numb nuts green) - but every talks about how they are since they obtained salmons and thus it's salmons who is responsible for them playing better...
Someone floated the argument that he's excelling in Milwaukee cause he's a second option and in Chicago they expected him to be a first option.
It seems like Andrew Bogut and his performance get soundly ignored
Bucks are 15-2 with Salmons. He is averaging 20.5 points in Milwaukee, including 28.3 in the last three games.
Seemed like Salmons was blamed for the bad '06 home loss at the buzzer to Pacers on a Stephen Jackson layup for not helping out Korver on defense. The Sixers didn't re-sign him.
The Bulls had similar results last season when they traded for Salmons. He couldn't reproduce this year. Wonder if he's going to opt out of the final year of his deal.
The Bulls had similar results last season when they traded for Salmons. He couldn't reproduce this year
Lends some credence to the second scorer argument - last year he had ben gordon - this year he didn't.
If he's smart he'll opt out - he'll get too much credit for milwaukees turn around (and if they win a first round playoff) and there's a ton of money floating around this off season
Do you know when was the last time (prior to now) that the Sixers were 23 games below .500?
96/97 season?
Very good, John. 22-60 in final game of Johnny Davis as coach/Iverson's rookie year. Davis and GM Brad Greenberg were fired the next day.
Tom, any feeling the same could happen this year? Both Eds out the door after the final game?
In my mind the answer was 'whenever keith van horn / tim thomas got drafted' - and i worked backwards from that.
That's the year the lottery screwed the sixers, and they OWE us
BTW, from '86-'96 the Sixers averaged 56 wins per year. Since then they have broken 50 only twice in 23 years.
And they wonder why the Wach is empty?
Huh? You had to be referring to '76-'86 right?
"Personally, I think it's admirable that Iguodala wants to play all 82 games, even in this lost season. We get on guys for just collecting the paycheck, but everyone in the league should really have that goal and it is a form of leadership. It's like asking the players to stop trying to win because losing is better for the franchise. You don't want that, you don't ever want players coasting because they don't want to win."
I wanted to touch on this blurb that Brian said earlier above. And this quote below by Iguodala.
Iguodala: "I think it’s important (to play all 82 games). No matter what the situation may be, you’ve got to go out there and you’ve got a job to do. Also, showing the young guys how we want things to work – just try to lay the foundation. That’s definitely a goal of mine."
Is it really so admirable and such a form of leadership if you do play every game of the season but you clearly are half-assing it for a portion of them? Wouldn't the team and you be better off if you just parked your lethargic effort on the bench?
If you're out there just coasting and drifting, although maybe not because you're 'not trying to win', aren't you realistically 'not trying to win' if you aren't leaving it all out on the floor anyway?
I agree with another in that this just shows his propensity to be selfish but also shows his belief that he's such a 'star'. He thinks playing every game of the season validates him in some way, yet he's been one of the first to have started 'mailing it in'. And yes, this 'mailing it in' started before this injury popped up.
Because he wants to play through pain in no way shows leadership to the other guys. Just like him freelancing out of a timeout deviating from the play called and giving his mopey effort for 10-15 games doesn't set an example of leadership either.
Frankly, this just further proves to me that he really is full of shit.
Like his quote Tom provided above. He mentions "you've got a job to do" and a "goal" of his is to "show the young guys how things work" and "lay the foundation". WTF? Who does he think he is fooling?
This from the guy who has damn near given up (unless Kobe or LeBron is on deck, some leader huh - to only bring it against the better peers in the league) about 15 or so games ago. If he's got a job to do then what's his excuse for not doing it consistently? What's his excuse for being the so-called 'leader' and 'franchise player' of a losing ass team? A bottom feeder?
And he's laying the foundation and showing the youngins how it works, huh? Showing them how to give up is more like it, how to tune the coach and staff out, and how to frown/scowl at his teammates after mistakes but gloss over his abundance of them. Showing them how to work on weaknesses in your game during live action. Showing them how to be a pretty much non-communicating leader on the court. What a fucking joke!
This guy isn't only just full of shit but he really is full of himself too. His head just can't get any bigger can it?
To sit up there and just spew hot air puts him in EJ post-game territory - some comparison.
This is beyond nonsense. Iguodala plays hard night in and night out. The team is completely rudderless, he's been playing hurt for weeks, and he's got a coach saying he needs to take more shots if he wants to be a leader. Honestly, with fans like you it's easy to understand why the basketball gods continue to take a giant shit on this organization.
Excuse maker. You're just blinded by your love for the guy.
Everything written above is valid besides the opinions of him being full of it both ways. I've watched every game and read every article and quote this year too.
You answer some of the questions I posed if you think it's nonsense then.