 PSA: The Ty Lawson Fan Club This is a quick note about a new rule here at Depressed Fan. Actually, it's pretty much the first rule, but I think it's important for a couple of reasons. From this day forward, all comments regarding Ty Lawson, unless the Sixers are playing the Nuggets, will only be accepted on this post. Explanation after the jump. The draft is over. Ty Lawson is a Denver Nugget. Jrue Holiday is a Philadelphia 76er. I believe the team made the right decision. Some of you do not. These are all facts. We've spent way too much time debating it, I don't want every post to turn into a "Wow, did you see what Ty Lawson did today," back-and-forth. I'm setting aside this post, and this post only, for people to keep up with Ty Lawson's career and revisit this debate as often as they want. I'm also putting a button on the sidebar so you'll have easy access to it at all times. Any comments on any other posts about Lawson will be moved to this post from this point forward, or just deleted if I don't have the time or energy. This is 50% about keeping the comments focused on the team and the games at hand and 50% based on my sanity. Thanks, and sorry if it's an inconvenience. 
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Not an inconvenience but the first thing that truly made me laugh all day long - just the title.
And thank you for your support
Thank you, Brian. All the more reason why I enjoy reading your posts.
Oh thank God.
I was one of those who wanted Lawson before the draft, but I do believe the team made the best decision since Jrue fell to us.
I sure don't want to see people making noise on random posts here every time Ty Lawson makes a basket.
hahahaha this is hilarious. well done brian.
Brian, How about Jeff Teague?
Only kidding...............
Thanks for your efforts!
Brian - do you think you could check your email, I sent in a tryout a couple weeks ago and you still haven't replied. Thanks!
Check your e-mail, Ryan.
I agree 100%. Nothing wrong with being a Ty Lawson fan (or a Tar Heel fan.) But he is not a Sixer, and unless there is some possible trade for him out there his success or failure is about as relevant as filling up posts with complaints about not drafting Rondo. Sure it has some relevance when measuring the teams draft success, but does not warrant a constant revistting.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. I'm not innocent here, though, I played into it and sometimes I even enjoy the arguments. I just don't want any more posts hijacked with an old debate. If I'm feeling particularly argumentative, now there's a proper place for it so everyone not involved doesn't have to wade through it to get to the relevant stuff.
LOL! Funny and appropriate.
i will say one thing; every kid thinks the treat that his/her friend is holding is DEFINITELY tastier than theirs. both might be identical but the allure of something see from afar is quite enchanting.
i'm sure he will be a good player.
Thank you, Brian.
Well done, Brian!!!
One thing
there is something wrong with being a NOrth Carolina fan...
Well in the fun spirit of this thread, I'm here to tell you that Ty Lawson, the future of the point guard position, has done absolutely nothing in the first half of today's game besides commit a foul - yet, in a game where his team is trailing by 12, he has a +/- of +1 in 8 minutes. Ty Lawson - his mere presence makes his team win.
And keeping with the fun, the mere presence no way relates to victory, BUT, if +/- is the barometer (which is useless and shouldn't be) then, that +18 sure is looking pretty good.
Might as well finish off this line (geez, bringing him up prematurely can be dangerous)...
Guess coach threw him in with against the scrubs because he wound up with a decent line, 5-10 FG (11 pts), 2 boards, 2 assists (no turnovers) and a +18 on the night.
Is this thread going to be up for three years straight? Surely this won't be as itchy as a Rondo 'miss' but this could be death by 1000 cuts over time. I say the one year then let it die.
+18 when he was in, -26 when he wasn't. -26! That's a 44-point on-court/off-court differential. And while we're told Lawson has these defensive limitations, Curry fouled out in 21 minutes trying to guard either Eric Gordon or Baron Davis, I'm not sure which. Both had monster games. Curry, though, he made one of his five shots so at least he chipped in on the other end.
Zero turnovers for Jrue against the Nets tonight. He's a non-turnover machine!
Something interesting I've discovered about plus-minus, as measured on online box scores - if a player subs out in the middle of foul shots, the second foul shot, if made, won't count in favor of, or against, his plus-minus, even though in reality his being on the floor has nothing to do with the making of that shot, while his being on the floor may have had something to do with the fact that his teammate or opponent got fouled. He may even have done the fouling. Making that adjustment to Lawson's +/- tonight, Lawson has done next to nothing tonight in the first half (actually, he has a couple rare turnovers), but his +/- when in is -2, whereas his team's +/- with him on the bench is -8. Which is consistent with his outrageously high Roland Rating of +14.3, a rating higher than that of any Sixer and all but a handful of players in the league.
Yeah, that's always bugged me about +/-. In the rotation charts I do, I count free throws for/against the players who were on the court when the foul occurred.
Actually, I was looking through last night's game chart and I think ESPN calculates +/- the same way I do. Not 100% sure, need to look over a few other games to be certain.
It's like not counting SF for BABIP - the ball is in play right? And something happens right? It's an out and should be counted so and when I dtermine a pitchers BABIP i count SF's as outs
And Denver, getting blown out again, plays Lawson a little over half the game. -19 in the half of the minutes he didn't play and -6 in the half he did. 10 pts on 3-7 shooting, 5 assists, 3 turnovers, and at one point scored on three straight possessions. The turnovers are a career high for him. Possibly his worst game yet.
10 pts and 5 assts with 3 turnovers (one being a late travel in garbage time and another an at-the-basket strip by Teague, forget what the other one was) -- if that's his worst yet, I'll take it.
So the turnovers don't count because they were garbage time, but the shots made against the other team during garbage time do?
Nitpicking:) He didn't make any in GT did he? Can't remember but I did see that late travel.
Well actually the shots he made were in the third quarter, when they were within a dozen. The assists mostly came in garbage time.
On a serious note though, after the publicly stated looking for the first guard off the bench yesterday, then Ivey and Willie G getting those minutes, that was pretty disappointing in Jrue's case. Not distinguishing yourself from those two can't be good, no matter how you slice it. And I have confidence that it is warranted too, and not the staff just jerking him around.
"Again... one player is 22, the other 19. So you wanted the older guy because the Sixers are ready to contend right away? You can't compare a 19 year old and a 22 year old after 5 games in the NBA. Especially if you are a fan of one and have never seen the other play."
tk, the above is from you earlier today and since you went there unprovoked then I will now take the time to respond:
Taking a player based on age is silly and a foolhardy method. Just because player A is younger than player B doesn't exactly mean that player A will somehow be the better player. I didn't want the team to draft a guy based on when we may be ready to contend or his age. I wanted us to draft what I felt is, and will be, the better player. And, most importantly as stated before, the better fit with this current team and core. If a guy can make you better NOW and in the FUTURE then why wouldn't you take him? It sounds crazy to think you would draft a project (or as you say, a younger player) instead of a more ready player because you feel your team is a few years away from contention.
And for the millionth time, I am NOT comparing these two based off of a small sample of five pro games. My evaluation is from what I have seen of the two in college (20 games for Jrue, around 100 of Lawson). You and others feel they know the game well enough and know player's abilities. Well so do I. I have my opinion and others have their's. If my opinion isn't respected around these parts (which apparently it isn't) then it is no sweat off my back because I am still entitled to it. It's no problem if some disagree but there is absolutely no need to hold an opinion against someone personally. Because I feel a certain way about a decision this franchise made doesn't make me less of a man or passionate fan.
And please let this go for the record and always be referred back to; I dislike the UNC Tar Heels just as bad or worse than I do the Celtics (probably worse), so let's squash the assumptions that I am a 'fan' of Lawson, as has been referenced several times. I just know talent when I see it, no matter the college allegiance.
Eddie, you sound like a guy who's expecting a little too much from the internet. I've been there. There's just some dudes who refuse to actually read closely what you've actually written because they get themselves so invested in being your enemy that what you say after a time doesn't even matter anymore. They'll simply invent things even when the truth is right there in the thread for anyone to see. You might think they'd be too embarrassed to invent shit, but that often plays in their favour since there's a lot of lazy people about who'd rather just take someone else's word for it than google/scroll things themselves.
You will become subject to personal attack and attempts to otherize if you don't get with the bully's program (or the sermon from the bullypulpit, depending on the proprietor). This should be just some tomfoolery, armchair make-believe and mostly fun, but some dudes take every position seriously -- a different opinion constitutes an affront to their ego and so they'll respond as if you're stealing away precious IQ points. The responses are irresponsibly, outlandishly mean-spirited if not plain infantile with projection as a typical weapon (some believe being crass adds IQ points when it only robs them of EQ, the silly gooses).
They are the reason why people with full lives, and an abundance of friends and loves in good old meatspace have a poor opinion of bloggers.
Continue if you like, but methinks you doth expect too much.
A bit back on topic...
A popular statistician who's often quoted around here had this to say about Lawson the other day (like any other expert, he's only quoted and lauded as an authority when he happens to agree with an opinion):
p.s. one other possible interpretation re Jordan's announcement that he's waiting for a point guard to step up might be that it's his way of saying that he'd normally prefer to go with a steady vet but perhaps it's a shot across the bow to Ivey and Willie that he's willing to go with the rook if they don't do more. I'd normally agree with your interpretation Eddie (that it's likely Jrue who's lacking) -- and this is all we're doing here, remember? just speckoolatin our asses off -- but this is another valid way to look at it, too.
Today is not a good day for the Stephen Curry fan club. Curry, continuing to suck time away from the markedly more talented Anthony Morrow, is 0-2 at the line, 2-6 from the field, with 5 turnovers, 3 assists and 4 fouls, in a game where his team is somehow getting blown out by a Kevin Martin-less Kings squad. Curry, by the way, is the third-worst player on his team in plus/minus, while Morrow is the second best.
Who? Curry?.... Where are the members of his fan club? Another thread for him?
Since this is quickly turning into the premature "I told you so" thread, thought I'd chime in on the Washington Wizards. 2-5 now with 4 consecutive losses. Arenas is back to his gunning ways.
I find it surprising that people were so excited when they obtained two bench players and a guy who shoots more than iverson
With Jrue in the lineup +11. With Jrue on the bench -15.
He's starting to show that knack for attacking double teams, getting into a defense and setting up the right look for guys. You know, natural PG stuff.
I read a write-up comparing his STYLE to CP3. Saying physically they were night and day, but at least in HS Jrue probed and picked apart defenses in a similar fashion.
he is not a low risk/safe PG like Calderon or Snow. he's a pro-active creator who generates open looks by drawing the defense to him.
But to be successful in that role he needs to establish some things:
-That he is a threat to score
-That he won't make to many TO's (right now by underestimating defender's athleticism)
-Show he has the quickness and athleticism to break down NBA PG's
By the way, I never said Jrue wouldn't be a good player. I just said I'd rather pick Ty. No one's ever doubted Jrue's defense, energy, athleticism, etc. Curry, however, I never thought would be that great, and it was another bad night for the Curry fan club. His team shot 57%, 60% if you take his numbers out, but he went 2-8, 1-7 from inside the arc, couple turnovers. Did have 5 assists though. At this very early point in the season, Toney Douglas is looking better than him.
So he shot 100% from three? :)
No wait, 1-6 from inside the arc. 1-2 from three. A good percentage there, still.
Jesus, Morrow is unbelievable.
Azuibuike or whatever FINALLY has a good game, the day I waive his ass
God i should have known better - the warriors are a friggin mess.
If you're looking to dump sam and take advantage of a team i bet you could get rid of sam and willie and still get some talent back from the warrios for the privilege of taking steven jackson off their hands...of course then you have to arrange for steven jackson to have an 'accident' - but there's some guys in south philly who will help out
That was the first guy I looked at for the post I wrote today, but Jackson's contract is just beyond insane. Jackson + Morrow for Sam wouldn't even be worth it.
Oh - hi contract sucks - hence the 'acccident' in south philly that leads to retirment and insurance paying off the deal.
But the warriors probably have the largest collection of talent with no idea how to use it in the league.
Be interesting if you work out a 3 way with a team that actually WANTS jackson (some exist i'm sure)
And Curry's playing heavy minutes for a bad team. Shooting 45% from the floor, 45% from three, averaging 5.7 assists and 2.1 turnovers. That's not bad production from a rookie in those circumstances. Not his fault he's starting over Morrow.
Tim Kwamakami points out in his blog posting (I follow some writers on twitter) than Monta Ellis said he and curry wouldn't work together - so that's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy :)
Yeah, I remember that from the preseason.
Morrow would probably be a perfect fit to play back there with Monta, who can't shoot the three.
Ty continues to have great +/- numbers (+9 when he was in the first half, -6 when he was out), and he continues to make threes - 2-3 thus far. One wonders, though, if his plus-minus is partly a function of the fact that Denver's second unit is just playing better than the starters (Chris Andersen, for instance, is a better player these days than Kenyon Martin), especially when they're matched up with other teams' second units.
While I put absolutely no weight in +/- as a barometer, your mentioning of the Nugs second unit playing better than their starters sounds very similar to our Sixers at the moment. Jrue's effort and fiestiness was welcomed to see, so do we equate his +11 last night to the same mentioned above with Ty, with him going against the second unit and Goran Dragic in particular?
Sure he would not have done as well against Nash... but I felt Jrue was the most impactful player on the floor during his run. That's saying something for someone who has been buried on the bench.
The kid sort of took the game over on both ends and did not exactly back down to Hill or anyone else. i was surprised, and don't expect that type of play every night or against starters- but that is what we should be looking for in a few years. Sort of like how Speights abused 2nd teamers last year and now is just a beast regardless of who he faces.
1:2 assist to turnover ratio for Ty tonight. That's pitiful. Dalembert-like.
Pitiful indeed. The impressive thing though about Ty to me is that he's yet to have anything you could call a bad game, or a game where he isn't productive. You rarely see a rookie, particularly a rookie point guard, who does something every night - usually the pattern is occasional flashes followed by stretches of non-contributive or bad play. Ty's already this fairly dependable role player on a very stacked and veteran team. Every night he plays his 20-some minutes, takes care of the ball, makes some shots, provides a nice change of pace. Maybe he'll just always be solid, but the learning curve's been unusually rapid so far.
So how would the 22 year old do right now on a non-vet laden Sixer team (Speight 21, Thad 21, Smith 22, Lou 22, etc.) I'm sure it would be a bit tougher task but it would be interesting.
That 50% shooting overall and 66% from deep isn't too pitiful though. And one of your fav's in +/- at +11 ain't shabby either.
and what was one of the glaring needs from last season? a guard who has a decent jumpshot, esp from deep. instead they went with a kid who would need a total overhaul on his jumper. mind you, for jrue, so far, so good...
75% from three for Jrue. Averaging 3.1 made threes/36 minutes.
An impressive 50% for Lawson, but only 1.4 made threes/36.
Looks like they made the right choice after all.
Really? Is that fact or just speckoolation with the overhaul of Jrue's jumper? His form and mechanics look pretty much the same to me. And good at that. I especially like his knee-bend, which is the base anyway.
Any evidence no matter how small sampled or unproven that Lawson was the better overall pick than Jrue - 100% accurate.
Evidence that says Jrue was a better pick than Lawson - 100% inaccurate
While you may put no credibility in +/-, people much more legitimate who know about basketball do put SOME credibility in it, so I'll apologize if I take nothing you say seriously since you have a point of view you don't think could possibly be wrong (about anything) - what's the point in debating with someone who doesn't think they're wrong, ever, no matter how much evidence that they are presented with.
Is speckoolation anything like speculation?
He's actually not disagreeing with me, he's disagreeing with R&S. He also happens to be right.
No one ever said they had to rework Jrue's jumper. In fact, they said his jumper was fundamentally sound and they expected him to be a very good shooter. All he needed was repetition.
Doesn't matter who he replies to - the tendency is always the same...he's made his decision, and no matter how much information he's provided now or in the future it seems that he'll never change his mind...Holliday played amazing the last game I see no indication that the 'it's jrues fault he's not playing' thought process has changed.
He's complementing Jrue in this particular comment, though. At least give him credit for that.
Not sure what you're saying there, Eddie--that Jrue's jumper was pretty darned good in college? A form may look pretty but if it doesn't result in ball in hoop (esp at a bad clip) then it needs a lot more work, yes? That's all I meant. We know that by senior year Ty's jumper was PDG. Just sayin.
If there's stats that say Jrue's jumper was near Ty's (or better), I withdraw the comment.
And vice versa, right? It's the unfortunate nature of the thread. Friendly discussion drewlz, polarization rulez.
His jumper in his freshman year looked to leave a lot to be desired, so no, I wasn't saying it was pretty good in college. A pretty form that doesn't result in made baskets doesn't necessarily mean it needs a lot more work either. Mostly, as has already been stated, repetition.
Really don't like to say whose jumper is better between two players because jumpshots are such a feel-and-rhythm type of thing that can come and go, which can lead to inconsistency.
Quick Wizards update for those believers out there:
Gilbert Arenas, 7/20 from the floor in 42 minutes. He did fill out the box score, though. 5 boards, 8 assists and 12 turnovers. Yup, Gilbert is all the way back and leading the Wizards to a sparkling 2-6 record.
Flip Saunders' solid coaching is really paying dividends for this Wizards squad. 40 minutes for DeShawn Stephenson, 10 minutes combined for Randy Foye and Nick Young.
This has been moved here from another thread. Written by R&S:
Well, not strictly true. I know we try not to look at Willie too hard, but he did put up a pretty nice line the other night vs Detroit....
in 23 mins, 13 pts (6/10 FG, 3 rebs, 4 assts, 0 TOs).
Then there's Ivey's game vs. the Nets. *shrugs* We're dealing with tiny samples, it'd be convenient if two of the guys just absolutely stunk out the joint each and every time they stepped toe on the court. But it's tricky stuff. Just about every coach likes to rely more on vets because they at least know what they're going to get more consistently (even if it's not likely to get a lot). Lawson is making Karl lose sleep in Denver because he's consistently doing more than his vet Carter, a known quantity. Fans are always excited to their new guy play, coaches need dependability.
So far though, no doubt, Jrue's making his case and should be giving Jordan cause for furrowed brow.
I think it's premature to make conclusions about how good an NBA shooter Lawson may be, and beyond premature to say anything about how good a shooter Holliday will be.
I'ts premature to make any conclusions about who was the better draft pick
Then again, people have been making said conclusions since before the draft :)
My bad, I thought this was the thread where sample size doesn't matter.
Oh no, I'm not saying it's some kind of certainty that Ty will be a great NBA player. I think the most I've said is that he's the most NBA-ready of the point guards in the draft, which isn't too premature to make claims about, because all NBA-ready means is whether from the first day you're ready. I do think initial signs are pretty encouraging. David Thorpe, for what he's worth, has Ty #1 in his rookie rankings. As far as Holliday goes, I don't mean to disparage him at all, it's very possible he'll be a really good player. I do mean to disparage Curry a bit because I don't see him being that effective a scorer on the NBA level, I do think turnovers will be a problem, and I've never bought into his being the most incredible shooter in the world.
Amazing. I had exactly one line on Lawson re how he's making things tough for his coach (who has already admitted that he's losing sleep over it). One line as part of a larger point and looka all this chatter. You were right to plop it here, B. The sensitivities over this topic is beyond measure.
Well Real, observing from afar, it seems that the majority of the loyals (Tray, tk, eddie, yourself, and Brian) are having some good natured fun with this permanent front-page thread. Just a little I-poke-u, u-poke-back ribbing going on. It just looks like Mr. Internet-tough-guy (we all know whom I'm referring), front-seat-shotgun-rider, spell-checker-extraordinaire appears to be out of school today for Vet's day.
You guys carry on, it does benefit my daily grinning, and besides, it's not hard to bypass the hot air spewing.
;-)
You know what's even 'worse' than my suppposed whatever the fuck you guys are talking about
The fact that you seem to care so much about it...what does that make you?
And Curry has finally played his way out of the starting rotation although, in fairness, he never should have been thrown into it anyway. Tonight midway through the fourth quarter, two points, 3 turnovers, 2 assists. GS is -14 when he's on the floor, just -1 when he's off. All Golden State needs to do is never play Curry and all their problems will be solved! (Kidding, kidding, but they could be a lot better if they gave Randolph and Morrow more minutes and Curry less.)
Ty, for his part, had 5 assists, 2 steals, a turnover and a bucket in 21 minutes tonight. (He did, it's true, shoot 1-5 - and Billups compared him to Brevin Knight today, which is somewhat damning praise. Maybe he feels threatened!) The last 3 assists came in an 8-1 run that cut Milwaukee's 4th quarter lead from 9 to 2. Alas, Lawson was pulled from the game for the last 4 minutes, and Denver lost. For the game, a +/- of +1; when off the court, the team was -7.
We'll have to see if Maynor gets any love after tonight. Its his chance to shine.
Maybe Curry is sick and no one's bothered to report it, but otherwise it would seem that Nelson has just decided not to bother playing him tonight. A strategy which is currently resulting in a 10-point lead Ton the road (against New York).
Curry is not going to get a DNP-CD tonight. He played for the last minute of the half when Ellis picked up his third foul, did nothing.
One game holds no weight in the next statement, but, I liked me some Maynor during the draft too. Not a bad showing tonight. He plays with acclimation when he's on the floor.
But the flipside could be, it was against you-know-who.
Ty Lawson is raping the Lakers in every which way right now.
And quite a few general managers are going to feel raped too.
Lawson was +7 tonight, but the team was much better when he was on the bench (+19).
Jrue, on the other hand, was 0 tonight, the rest of the team was -22 when he was on the bench...ah fuck it. Even this thread can't cheer me up.
In Cris Carter fashion - c'mon man!
But really, you aren't the only one pained. Suffering is rampant here too.
It's true that the team was just as good or better when he was out, but in the first half their offense looked way better with him running it than Billups. Seriously, Billups either looks for his own shot or dumps it off to somebody and leaves the picture; Lawson was always creating and could have had a dozen assists if some of his passes' recipients hadn't missed layups, wide-open threes, gotten hacked and sent to the line, etc. His shot looks weird, but seems to be pretty accurate, he just blows by defenders, hustles after loose balls, and on defense, he's going to get shot over by Farmar, but he played pesky defense on Fisher and seemed to make the correct rotations. He also dunked over Mbenga, and no turnovers.
On this here day, one thing is positive - I must admit, I sit back and wallow in much glee with all the love Ty Lawson is receiving around this blog. Amazing what 8 or 9 games can do instead of five.
Small sample size still yet, but Ty will just as surely keep the hits a comin'... Keep on ballin' boy... I've got the haters too. No sweat....
And with fun spirit I write:
Eric Maynor tonight on the tail-end of a back-to-back, had 24 pts on more than 50% shooting, 4 dimes and 3 boards with 3 turnovers in a whopping 41 minutes. Not bad for a rook.
Hey, could be worse. We could be the 2-7 Wizards who traded away the #5 pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye because they were SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ready to compete right now.
My fantasy team loves me some Brandon Jennings as a rookie PG. 55/5/5 with 7 3s. Sure the Bucks are bad and GS plays no D, but still...
Raves for Ty:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aoz1wSUdW9NkqeOf7tKV8YS8vLYF?slug=ap-nuggets-lawson&prov=ap&type=lgns
...I just love how everyone thinks Ty Lawson is ready... Ahhh, the memories...or maybe the archives....
Settle down rickypryor
Sounds like Lawson is in a great situation in Denver. Since Philly is rapidly become Clippers east, I'd say things worked out well for him.
Curry had a nice game today - played nearly the whole game (Watson and Azubuike are hurt/swine flu'd out) and had 14, 5 and 7 on 6-9 shooting (just 2-6 from three though). Ty, who today was the subject of a ridiculous "will he singlehandedly put Denver over the top" piece on ESPN's First Take - even I don't think that - had 4 points, 6 assists and 2 steals in 24 minutes. 3 turnovers. +10 when on, +8 when off. Not an incredible game, but yet another good one in what so far has been a season of remarkably consistent play.
6 turnovers for Curry tonight, but 13 points (4-10 shooting, 1-4 from three) and 7 assists, along with 4 steals.