The NBA's best offer is on the table. It hasn't improved a whole lot from where it was a week ago, but they've essentially laid all their cards on the table. Take it or leave it by Wednesday, after Wednesday the offers get worse. This bold negotiating tactic has elicited a ton of tough talk from Jeffrey Kesler and Derek Fisher, but should their bruised egos and reactionary quotes signify more than a ton of hot air?
Personally, I don't think so. These negotiations have been going on long enough. This entire season is about to go up in flames, it's time for the union's leadership to basically admit defeat. We're on the precipice of a lost season. This deal, the one the NBA has on the table for another 72 hours or so, is the absolute best Fisher, Kessler and Hunter could negotiate. It's time for the union to decide if it's good enough, or if they're going to go an entire year without a pay check.
Obviously, no one knows how a pure vote would go at this point, but I have to believe the current deal would have at least as much support as a vote to decertify. We've heard an awful lot from the union's negotiators (who have failed miserably), and from the most vocal members of the union (a group comprised of guys who have either made a large fortune already in their careers, or who are still extremely young, and looking at big paydays in the near future, or who are just nincompoops like Spencer Hawes), these people are vocal, but do they represent the majority? Given the choice between a less-than ideal deal right now that would turn the money spigot back on, or losing a huge percentage of their lifetime earnings, how many silent members of this union are going to choose the latter?
It's time for the union to face facts, their leadership has absolutely failed them. Derek Fisher should be replaced as the president of the union, Billy Hunter and Jeffrey Kessler should be fired. It may have been an uphill battle, but it was their job to get the best possible deal for the union prior to this point. If it isn't good enough, they should be gone. Either way, every member of that union should be screaming for a vote right now. It's time for them to make a decision and the only thing worse than a lost season would be if it was lost without the actual players having a say one way or the other.
Not sure people saw it. Saw it on the espn crawl while watching some poker. SI.com has an article where Kobe says if 50/50 gets a season done then he'd sign off on it. I think thats the biggest name to come out in favor of that even split if any players have?
I haven't seen any TV all weekend, was in Philly for most of it running after a couple of kids. I'm kind of shocked and heartened if he said that, it only takes one big crack to completely blow the Pierce contingent right out of the water, and Kobe could be it.
I spent a lot of time learning JavaScript and japery which will come in handy if a season ever starts (prediction contests for standings for instance)
But I was just up late channels surfing and had good timing catching the press conference of the nba exactly at the beginning
This Si.com article mentions the Kobe thing
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/web/COM1191903/index.htm
That Bryant comment might be significant because of his relationship with Fisher. It's quite obvious that Fisher is the one of the negotiating team that is ready to accept a worse offer and Hunter and Kessler are the ones undermining the idea of giving up more. And that's significant because Hunter and Kessler couldn't care less about the season, they don't gain anything from it being played, whereas Fisher is a player.
Would be great to see Kobe shut Pierce up.
Kobe and a few other select vets (like Chauncey) have enough security to basically say what they feel. The other guys are to concerned about their reputation and their peers to do more than regurgitate the union stance.
KG and Pierce also fall into that category- unfortunately their speaking up has made them look the fool IMO.
Good points, agree on all.
I would love to hear one of the young stars [Durant?] step up and say the same as Kobe, somebody with a stake in the future with this deal. As far as the union heads failing, as Brian says, I disagree if they accept this deal because it seems they won on a lot of system issues.
But if Hunter sways the players to pass on this than, yes, I would agree with Brian.
My point is if the union leadership is saying we can't even take this deal to the players for a vote, then they're failing by definition because this is really their deadline. The season hangs in the balance and they're saying we haven't been able to broker a deal that's acceptable.
What happens if other members of the union speak out? They're shunned? The owners won't care and the owners write the checks. They're in the union it's not like they're crossing a picking line, they have a right and responsibility to express their opinion. If leadership doesn't know how its members REALLY feel then leadership might not be representing the majority of the players.
Did Kessler's comments piss off anyone else? "Not on Fisher's watch! Not on Hunter's watch!" Give me a break.
Will the players get any paychecks?
Not on their watch....
These high profile lawyers are egomaniacs. Probably doesn't bode well for Kessler's reputation that he's been absolutely beaten down in the negotiations. They've been fleeced, time to just accept the reality of the situation and move on.
Fisher seems to be the only guy ready to accept his failures. He deserves credit for that. Hunter was too embarrassed to show his face after the number went down to 50 on Saturday. Left Fisher to answer to the media on his own, what a creep.
LeBron has been mum on the current status as far as I know.
LBJ + Kobe endorsing the 50/50 reality check might be enough star power to get the rank and file to speak their minds in support of a deal.
I'm pretty sure I read that LeBron was leaving voice mails for people saying 53 or bust a while back.
Yeah, he was at one of the labor meetings around the time KG went off. But now that reality is setting in, he hasn't spoken up. He wasn't on the decertification conference call with best buddy D Wade.
I really think they have a silent majority of players that will accept the deal. It's irresponsible that Hunter and co. won't even bring up the possibility of a vote.
Anyone else think Jordan is potentially damaging his brand with this leading of the hardliners? Especially if this think continues to get uglier and he becomes the face of a missed season?
No IMO one thing has nothing to do with the other Jordan brand will be good regardless
I hope the union votes to decertify. the owners have been trying to strong arm the union all along. they have not been negotiating in good faith. Its pathetic that you guys are all pro ownership when its the players that make the league. Every owner can be replaced by some other rich dude or group of investors. How are you going to replace a kobe, lebron, durant or wade? F*ck the owners. You guys are constantly insulting the players' intelligence and referring to them as idiots because they want to negotiate in good faith. you basically see they players as group of lucky, spoiled individuals who should be happy they get paid so much to play a game and who should allow the owners to walk all over them. whatever.
If the players "make" the league, then surely they can just start their own new league?
If you don't think the system needed changes than I totally disagree with you. There are haves and havenots and under Snider we were somewhere in the middle. I expected a walkover by the owners frankly, but this deal still has exceptions, fairly long guarenteed deals and not a hard cap. I think Stern, even though I at times don't like his methods, is being level headed and not heavyhanded.
So you are saying that you would prefer that there is no basketball this season? Because that is what certification does. And that would help who, exactly? Agents?
I am not pro player or pro union. In fact I'm probably equally frustrated with both sides. But if the owners offer is so bad, why would it result in the players be in better position than those in the NFL and NHL?
In labor negotiations it is not about who is "right" or what someone deserves. It is about power and compromise. If you don't like how the owners have leverage than complain to congress who gave them the anti-trust exemption that consolidates their power.
Think about it- the owners don't "deserve" to make millions and the players don't deserve to make what they make. Both sides are privileged beyond belief. So when they whine it comes off as hollow. They are dividing a huge sum of money. They each have a degree of leverage to maximize their side's cut. It is a fight over money- not truth, justice and the American way.
That is exactly what I am saying. Why isn't anyone taking the owners to task for not negotiating? The union worked like hell to get the contract that they now have. Why should they give it all back? They have made all of the concessions in this negotiation. You guys talk about Kobe speaking out like thats some noble gesture. He is selling out. He knows his window is closing and he does not give a hoot about the players of the future. Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen are not in it for themselves. They want the best deal for the future players in the league. Stern has put a gag order on the owners by imposing fines for public statements because he knows that many of the owners want to compromise with the players. But you guys are calling for other players to speak out and not support the union. Also, an attorney has to bring all offers of sttlement to his client but in a collective bargaining situation, the individual gives up some of his rights to bargain so that the union can speak for its members. Otherwise, unions would be totally ineffective at bargaining. The leaders of a union do not have a duty to bring all offers that they to their members. Nobody is paying money to see the owners.
I really have a problem with the whole workers of the world unite line when we're talking about guys making obscene guaranteed contracts. This isn't about Garnett looking out for rookies, this is about ego, and this is about superstars thinking they should be the boss, not the owners.
There's an offer on the table, it's as good as it's going to get before the season is lost, if the union leadership thinks it doesn't warrant a vote, then fine. Just come out and say we give up, there won't be a season. We don't want to be paid, our egos are more important than that. Then decertify and see if the courts agree with you. If they do, maybe you'll bring down the entire league, make it disband, and then you can go about trying to find a real job, with a real boss. See how you like that. Or you can sign off on the deal that's been negotiated that gives you a win on EVERY SYSTEM ISSUE from hard cap, to exceptions to bird rights, and has the revenue split at a level where the league isn't bleeding money and we can get back to playing basketball.
That is exactly what I am saying. Why isn't anyone taking the owners to task for not negotiating? The union worked like hell to get the contract that they now have. Why should they give it all back? They have made all of the concessions in this negotiation. You guys talk about Kobe speaking out like thats some noble gesture. He is selling out. He knows his window is closing and he does not give a hoot about the players of the future. Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen are not in it for themselves. They want the best deal for the future players in the league. Stern has put a gag order on the owners by imposing fines for public statements because he knows that many of the owners want to compromise with the players. But you guys are calling for other players to speak out and not support the union. Also, an attorney has to bring all offers of sttlement to his client but in a collective bargaining situation, the individual gives up some of his rights to bargain so that the union can speak for its members. Otherwise, unions would be totally ineffective at bargaining. The leaders of a union do not have a duty to bring all offers that they to their members. Nobody is paying money to see the owners.
They've made all the conessions have they?
The system is broken - the owners started saying we need a much larger percentage of the BRI, a hard cap, no exceptions, etc...the owners HAVE compromised and in the court of public opinion they have compromised A LOT more than the players, and then they players say 'we've come to 51%' and yet they ahven't - it's 52%, just 1% of that goes to retired players.
The facts and the PR are BOTH on the owners side. Their new offer is pure compromise from their initial offer and their latest offer before this one.
The players 'fought' hard to get guaranteed contracts that even if they SUCK after signing them they still get paid. The players 'fought hard' to allow teams to over spend, the players 'fought hard' to earn more and more money while risking no money in league.
Let's ignore the economics changing, the fracturing sports landscape, the numerous television and entertainment options. Your thinking is EXACTLY what's wrong with all unions in the United States, they never think they should give anything back AT ALL, they just want more more more
Damn the man, save the empire.
There are about 450 players in the NBA
There are currently 29 owners, and one of them wants to sell their team but no one is buying.
Players are much more easily replaced than owners.
Every generation thinks their players are the best and the next generation loves their players.
There's a larger pool of players to choose from than there are owners. If you want to rant and rave go right ahead, but don't 'f the owners' since their the ones risking ALL THE MONEY once a player signs a contract
Marc Stein reporting that the decert fools want to have a vote by Tuesday night and feel they can get 30%. If they get that 30%, the season is over folks, and it's on the players more than the owners in my opinion.
I'm not sure about that, they'd still be about 100 players shy of actually having the numbers to pass the vote. If they're having problems getting the 30%, then that would tell a rational group of people they need to cut a deal, but neither side is particularly rational right now.
Let's say the union gets 30% of players to vote on a decertification proposal - after 45 days if a majority of players don't agree to decertify what happens then? Do the owners have all the leverage? Can the players try to make another push to decertify? Does Billy Hunter get fired? Do I start watching replays of 76ers games on youtube?
If they get 30 percent, I think you can kiss the season goodbye. If they don't get the de-certification vote then we're just back where we are right now (I think) and the players are more of a mess.
I believe agents are pushing de-certification more than players, and that's a problem in this negotiation. You didn't hear a whole lot of agent noise in the NFL talks did you? I don't recall hearing the agents being a major player. The agents are self serving bottom feeders (necessary bottom feeders mostly but let's not get into the fact that th pro leagues need to start penalizing the agents for misbehavior on the college ranks or it will never stop) who shouldn't be part of these talks at all.
They care about their commission and that's all. Agents are just really well paid car salesmen.
That's not true. They also get money from endorsement deals and many other venues. And, obviously, they care about keeping a client until they're next contract.
They want their clients happy, although obviously for their own personal reasons.
They want their clients happy, although obviously for their own personal reasons.
Which is their commission, whatever they do, it's about their commission plain and simple. Jerry Maguire doesn't exist.
Whatever their motivation, they have no place in CBA negotiations in my opinion.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7202117/nbpa-mandatory-meeting-player-representatives-tuesday-sources-say
Not sure about this, but lawyers are required to present offers to their clients no matter how bad they are right?
I find it ridiculous that 2-3 guys are deciding what the entire union should see and decide upon, that's irresponsible.
I'm really hoping that players like Kobe step up in the next day or so and push for a vote. This may actually be the best deal the players are going to get with or without a partial season.
for anyone that wants to read about basketball and not lockout stuff, this is a scouting report by Sebastian Pruiti on Vucevic
http://nbaplaybook.com/2011/11/07/draft-pick-scouting-report-16-nikola-vucevic/
That's probably the best article on Vucevic outside of the draftexpress draft coverage. I respect Pruiti quite a bit and hopefully he is right with his generally positive scouting report on Vucevic.
If I were Jrue I would be hearing "pick and pop" in my nightmares... If only the Sixers could find an athletic big who can roll and finish in traffic. Jrue will be limited as a PG until the Sixers find that complement.
I believe the Voose can roll and get his layup blocked, so we're about half-way there.
I'd say the lack of a pick and roll partner affects Turner more than Holiday. That was a major part of his offense in college.
I have a question:
If there is no season do the owners get to keep 100% of the TV revenue (as opposed to the players getting their cut?)
IIRC, teams are getting their national TV paychecks even though there are no games. How profitable would it be for the owners for there to be no season at all?
That's an interesting question. I assume you still have the staff to pay, which isn't cheap in a lot of situations: Thorn, Collins, assistant coaches, etc. The Sixers don't own their stadium, so they aren't paying upkeep on a mostly unused arena. They've got ancillary staff, like PR guys, stuff like that.
I'm almost certain that not playing games will actually cost some owners less money than playing them, we're talking about the teams that are just bleeding money, but I doubt it's anywhere close to a majority of teams. Who knows. I'd love to know how the lease on stadiums works for teams who don't own their arenas, and whether they're at least partially on the hook for that expense.
Can you buy official NBA merchandise with current players' names on the back right now? If not, that's a big hit.
I would have thought no (have ou watched NBA TV recently, it's like the history of the NBA channel)
But a quick look at the sixers nba store jersey section indicates iguodala and turner jerseys can be purchased.
SI.com reporting:
According to a source involved in the push for decertification, the numbers needed to move it to a vote (30 percent of the league's players must sign a petition, or approximately 120 players) is expected to be in place before Wednesday. And if Stern follows through on his threat and drops the BRI to 47 percent, the source said the commissioner will have made the process of garnering support all that much easier.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sam_amick/11/06/nba.players.next.move/index.html
Like watching a train wreck.
It is interesting that we are still many weeks away from an actual "drop dead date" for the season, and yet everything seems to be coming to a head this week.
I think the league would cancel the season 'sooner' this time than last time - and we're approaching the 'drop dead' date for games on christmas which is a big deal in the NBA
If we lose the season, I really hope the players wind up decertifying and the league voids every one of their contracts. At least the resultant "fantasy draft" free-for-all would be interesting.
Well I don't think you'll see a voiding of all contracts, I mean does the heat really want to void the lebron contract for instance - a lot of rookie deals as well are still deals - i'd bet about 90% would be voided (that's a fun experiment - run through every team see who would and wouldn't be voided)
I'm doing some work on comments today, that's really the first step toward a larger project. Sorry if things don't work/look the way they should, just hang in there.
test
OK, so the changes are in effect, even if the display isn't completely done.
Basically, this is how it works. When you go to an entry, you drop a cookie which marks the most-recent comment. When you come back to that entry, any new entries since the last time you were there will be marked as unread. Also, when you click on the comment count from the home page, you will automatically be taken to the oldest, unread comment in the thread instead of the first thread. so if you left a conversation off at the 200th comment, you'll be taken to #201, instead of having to scroll all the way down there. The cookies last a week, which seems sufficient to me.
Anyway, try it out, let me know what you think. btw, "read" comments will display exactly as they used to. Also, this isn't tied into your commenting account, it's purely based on the computer you're using, so if you read a bunch of comments at work and then go home and check the entry, the comments will be labelled as unread.
I like the unread thing - that's pretty darn hepful thanks - but if you can control the 'dividing' bar - the yellow is kind of bright :)
(PS if you want to email me the unread graphic I can try and smooth it out a bit
The yellow is changed. The image I just threw together to get something in there, it's part of a bigger thing, just the first step, then I'll worry about the display issues.
alright cool, and the grey is an improvement (if you have the ability to mess with the opacity of the divider it might work even better as it'll be there but 'lighter' ;) If you need some photoshop for graphics, let me know
Will do. I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my time, but I had an interesting idea and thought I'd put it into practice.
Never a waste of time if it's something you enjoy doing
waste meaning it might make game threads much better, but we won't be having any game threads until late 2012.
Did someone say 'game threads'?!
I'm using Chrome. It does jump to the last unread post, but I cannot see any difference marking whether I have read a post or not.
Did you see it when you came back to the thread after posting that?
this is what it should look like. You may have to hold down shift and hit refresh once to update your stylesheet. It may be cached.
I hit shift/refresh.
Post something and I'll let you know if it is marked as unread.
Something.
It works.
Cool. yeah, I decided to tone it down a little so it wouldn't hit you over the head if you came into a thread late and saw 300 "Unread" balloons all over the page.
IMO I'd tone it down even more. But either way, it's a good idea.
Ideally (not sure if you can do it) the background is a slightly different color when it's unread? Not sure if you an mess with css like that
Appears that the union is leaking oil on the unity front.
Steve Blake is calling players around the league enouraging them to request a vote on the current proposal.
Kevin Martin says he wants to accept the current deal, not worth losing years salary over a percentage point of BRI.
Amick also reports that 2 prominent agents have advised 19 of their players to take deal.
Well, I always thought one of sterns goals in this was to break the union and while it may not be fully broken it's crumbling
Kevin Martin isn't exactly the mega star I wanted to come out advocating the deal alongside Kobe, but it's a start. Hope to hear more big name players say it's time to deal before the night is over.
Stern also looking to meet with union one more time before Wed deadline.
This all sounds good, but I don't know if I want to get my hopes up.
Neither is steve blake - but I don't care about the superstars, and I don't think the rank and file do either - super stars are making 3-4 times what everyone else is making, they have marketing deals that most players don't, they are more capable of missing an entire years salary than a guy like steve blake.
Are the rookies who haven't signed contracts yet part of the union already?
don't think so because they aren't under contract
Anyone catch stern on Sports center?
USA Today writer J. Michael Faulgoust (never heard of em either...)
"Person w/knowledge of discussions says Fisher is concerned that despite warnings a lot of players didnt save $$ #nbalockout"
Um, wasn't it supposed to be a 'flex cap' :)
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/11/07/labor-talks-take-the-deal-or-reset/
Depressed Fan favorite LaMarcus Aldridge on board with 50 50
Wow, I'm surprised we're hearing this so quickly. So Kobe, Martin, Blake, Aldridge. Has anyone else said anything?
This is great stuff. My prediction is the league and players meet on Wednesday, the league offers the players a token concession (something virtually meaningless) so Fisher can save face, they take the deal back to the players, who vote on it and approve it.
Basketball is coming! I am so pumped for the Vucevic/Hawes combo!!!
Ugh, completely forgot about the Voose/Hawes combo. I vote for decertification if that's my other option.
hahahaha :)
I'd actually like to see the Sixers play UConn. They would win by a ton obviously, but the possibility of seeing Hawes/Vucevic get manhandled by Drummond and Oriakhi for 10 minutes of the game is intriguing.
Well, if there was ever a question as to who's winning the PR battle, Yahoo has a poll on what the players should do. 61% so far saying they should take the deal. 18% say negotiate better deal by Weds. 14% say decertify. 7% say don't take deal or decertify.
Uhoh someone has been hanging out with Speezy!!
@Jmeeks20 (Jodie Meeks) : My nap I jus took........#incredible
3 hours ago
Hawes ready to decertify, shocker...
"I would," Hawes said. "It's something that's been discussed for a while and it's at that point where they've taken our other options and they've given us an ultimatum, so I think it's time we bring something back and we throw a counterpunch."
Hawes added that he believes it's unnecessary to take Stern's proposal to a full vote of the union, saying, "He's made our decision for us. What they've done to the deal and where the deal is now, I definitely don't think it's worth voting on."
How is this bum the spokesman for the Sixers players? He is not even really respected on his own team. If this came from Brand, Iggy or even Lou it would carry some weight with me.
Broussard reporting on ESPN.com that up to 15 owners don't like the deal and hope the players vote against it. Supposedly 7 to 11 of them were on a conference call voicing complaints last night, only name provided (per usual) was Michael Jordan who I think ESPN loves trotting out as the only 'former player owner'
How is this bum the spokesman for the Sixers players? He is not even really respected on his own team. If this came from Brand, Iggy or even Lou it would carry some weight with me.
If it came from Lou I' laugh at it even more as he come off as an uneducated childish idiot at most times.
Most player reps aren't exactly the 'center' of the team.
I hate when I'm wrong. I looked up the player reps, and 16 of the 32 fall into the Hawes category of players who probably aren't big leaders on their own team (based solely on my speculation). I have an unnatural dislike for Hawes and that stupid look he gives the bench after making another mistake.
I disagree about Lou, though. He has respect of the players on this team. Not saying I'd want him as the PR director for my company or anything, but better than Hawes.
That's great, you disagree with me about Lou.
I didn't say anything about respect for him from the players, I said he's an immature uneducated childish fool. Whether or not he's respected by the players is irrelevant to me.
I don't like Hawes either, he's a backwoods reactionary fool who would vote for Sarah Palin for president and probably has a very large gun protection (cause it's his right you know, to abuse the most abused constitutional amendment)
At this point it doesn't matter who the reps are because according to Fisher they aren't presenting the deal to the players anyway
I just looked this up and i just saw that Dalambert was the player rep of the Kings!!!!!
Better than Cousins...
And apparently Sam is a bright guy with pretty varied interests. Not that surprising, since BB IQ and real life IQ are not all that related.
Well i don't know that much about him, but asking to be the focal point of an offense (which he did a few years ago in a sixers uniform) sounded kinda "not so bright" to me.
Hopefully i am wrong because it's very possible that the sake of the season depends on this NBPA meeting.
You're wrong - that sounds not bright in terms of basketball IQ which Sam never was.
Sam's a smart cat, he's just a stupid basketball player.
Anyone know when the players are supposed to meet?
1:00 PM
http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/08/nba-lockout-prediction/
That article makes me smile :)
So I guess I am on the same page as Sheridan. Not sure if that is a good thing, but at least others share my hunch.
No one expected the 98-99 lockout to end either. When it comes down to the wire, the players take the guaranteed money. I share your sentiments.
It would make me smile too if this wasn't the 10th time he's said this exact same thing. Any prediction right now is just a shot in the dark. I don't think the NBPA even knows what it is going to do next.
"I don't think the NBPA even knows what it is going to do next."
Implode?
WOnder why Sheridan can't get a job with ESPN or AP anymore :)
Seriously though - didn't like the tone of the article, pure optimism with no support other than his own opinon
Exactly.
I think hes just playing it safe. He is bound to get it right one of these times.
I have a hunch that there will be a deal by tomorrow and games by Dec 10th.
Of course I have not sound reasoning behind this- but don't burst my bubble. I'll go back to being grumpy on Thursday.
I've been an optimist for a while and thought the games will start on Thanksgiving, which i later revised to 1st of December. I still think the same and i expect a counter proposal by the players tomorrow which will bridge the gap in the next day or two and we we'll see a vote by the end of the week.
Yup me2, I'm with you guys. Too much dissension among the players to not make the 50/50 deal.
There are 3 sides on the players side
1. Decertify
2. Rejection
3. Approval
I'm not sure how having 3 different sides makes it more likely for half the union to approve the plan.
Heck, according to Broussard, they have the 30% to get the decertification started, so #2 and #3 have to split so that #3 has 50% + 1, but only from 70 percent of the union.
There are too many players in the room that need the money, that want to play. I think Jordan being in the 47-percent crowd has scared a lot of players into realizing that the league means business.
The union's leaks are a bunch of BS in my opinion. Of course they're going to leak that there is enough for decertification, because they are doing that for negotiating leverage. They're not going to intentionally leak that they have a majority for the 50-50 split.
Ultimately, I think money talks at the end. The majority of NBA players need the money and cannot afford a lost season. Even if they saved as they were warned (which I doubt most did), their "savings," while huge to most of us, are pennies to them. They have enormous mortgage/rent payments (not just for themselves but family and friends), they have enormous car payments, etc. Are Fisher and Hunter really going to stand by as NBA players line up at the foreclosure office because the league offered 50% instead of 52%? I just don't see any way that happens.
Thursday huh
I think you'll be grumpy by end of business Wednesday (which is 2 pm my time :) )
NBA isn't even the top news story today - it's 3rd
Jason Kapono is our player rep today? What a joke.
I'm fascinated that people care who the player rep is - like he's going to go rogue or something
I don't have much faith. This meeting if probably going to be about what the 30 team reps want, personally, more than a polling of the players they represent, I'm afraid.
Not concerned whatsoever. Although I'd like to think that a "representative" would be someone of value and a voice of the team. Maybe I have a bad read on him, but I though he was an afterthought.
Let's see - you've never been to a team meeting, you've never attended a practice, you don't know what the players think of Kapono as a person, nor do you probably even know how player reps are chosen or what their role is.
In short, I think you're ocmpletely off base in this
So, if he's off base in this then how off base is it to call LouWill uneducated, childish, immature and an idiot?
Let's see - I would presume you've never been to a team meeting, you've never attended a practice, never been in the locker room, and surely never been over to Lou's house for a cookout.
I recall it was you who squirms when posters here question any one thing about Andre Iguodala's personality or makeup. Yet, you are somehow 'on base' and slam LouWill like that?
Whatever you say their skipper. Thinking the players respect someone is not the same as thinking they're a fool, which louis williams displays in his twitter, his rapping, his public whateverness, his play on the court, that's enough for ME to form an opinion about his overall intelligence (not to mention he came straight out of high school so his education stopped when he was 18).
That's NOT the same as whether players respect him - if you don't see the difference then i'd have to assume you have some of the same issues that Lou does
Didn't you say above thinking the players respect someone was irrelevant to you? Well, it's irrelevant to me too in this instance. You're deflecting what I'm addressing here.
That's fine if that's 'enough for YOU' to form an opinion on Lou. But hold yourself to that same standard when others form an opinion on other players, with Andre Iguodala being one example. If others form opinions of him because he may seem aloof or distant or portray himself as having an ego, then let that be sufficient grounds for their formed opinion without condescendent tones directed at them.
Additionally, there are many success stories of individuals that only maxed out with a high school education. Not furthering one's self past high school is no threshold for being uneducated.
You're arguing apples and oranges, people argue Iguodalas ability, not his intelligence.
Seriously - I'm not going to bother continuing this because you keep switching the topic. I was talking about Lous perceived intelligence and anyone who perceives Lou as a mature intelligent human being is not someone I'm interested in talking to because to me it indicates that they don't know the definition of maturity or intelligence. And basketball intelligence is different.
As for Iguodala, most people who dislike Iguodala have irrataional pointless hatred based on an unrealistic expectation and a lack of comprehension of what his game is AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN (and it's a tired fucking argument)
Although I would feel better if it were Brand who would have a larger voice in a room of superduperstars, and has a large sum of money invested in the season, more so than Mr. MLE.
And how many 'super duper' stars are player reps for each team?
Off the top of my head the names i've read are anthony parker, and sam dalembert, neither of whom ARE super duper stars.
I prefer having reps who would represent the MAJORITY of the players- super duper stars tend to be able to sit out more than the MLE guy.
I think your point is 100% the opposite of who should be representing teams.
Kapono's a free agent and he's not going to get an MLE deal when free agency opens up.
Isn't Sam a free agent as well?
Yep.
I wonder if it's just coincidence, I'd think the FA's are the most impacted right away by whatever the deal ends up with
Elton Brand is our player rep.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216411/Tolliver_Believes_Players_Equally_Split_On_Current_Offer
Sorry to link a link...
Players are done meeting, Fisher claims unanimity on rejecting the owners ultimatum - claims theyre 'willing to compromise on BRI' if other system things are fixed, but in the clip i heard, neither he nor hunter indicated what those system issues were - probably the mid level - probably the players want to make it so capped out teams (and taxed out) can continue to spend as much as they want without paying too severe a penalty.
Interesting on ESPN radio to hear two former players (one recent NFL Marcellus Wile and one less recent NBA Myckal Thompson) on different sides of it.
So yeah - doesn't sound like anything is getting done in the next 24 hours
The players don[t want anything done to address "competitiveness balance" since that would mean preventing the big spenders from circumventing the cap.
Nonsensical IMO, since the pay of players will end up being mostly dictated by BRI- so why not let the owners try and balance the playing field? But that would also keep the good players getting to play for the contenders they want and for the owners who will pamper them more. The players want unfettered access to play for the team they want- but that is part of the very problem that makes Miami, LA and Boston have an advantage.
Well if all things are equal then it's the 'ancillaries' that draw for the contract, teams in texas have the state tax advantage, miami has weather and ho's (so does LA), NY has nightlife and ho's
There are ho's in minnesota, but the weather ain't so hot
Merry Christmas.
In the ESPN story, Hunter apparently said games will be cancelled through Christmas if they don't take the deal tomorrow, also said 29 of 30 teams were represented. Are you kidding me? They couldn't get a rep from one of the teams?
Radio cut off before Hunter said that (sounded fully recovered from being so under the weather he couldn't talk Saturday night didn't he?), but that's just ridiculous. Yeah, I wanna know which team didn't show up, and I wanna know how the uninon is so unanimous when you got public comments from folks talking 50/50, talking decert, but suddenly it's all' one mind'?
You also had at least one team rep saying he wanted a vote heading into the meeting today, right? Was Blake steamrolled?
Whoever handles the players' PR is not doing any job at all.
Every day this lockout drags on is one less day for Gilbert Arenas is stealing money from a rich owner. This thing has to get settled.
Surprised we have not heard the Hibachi's take on The Great Injustice being perpetrated on the players.
Well, I mean this is about rich white guys holding them down. Gilbert just can't get a fair shake.
What's 3 million dollars to a guy who is guaranteed to make at least another 35 million?
HIs agents commission ;)
Hence why the agents are upset
Poor Dan Gilbert...
LOL
1. Gilbert overpaid for the Cavs
2. Gilbert got lucky by drafting LBJ
3. Gilbert got llucky when LBJ decided to extend with the Cavs
4. Gilbert lived off the LBJ gravy train for years without earning it.
5. Gilbert is lucky LBJ stayed as long as he did (7 years).
Gilbert is a loser
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
http://www.clipsnation.com/2011/11/8/2547418/nba-lockout-i-dont-want-to-write-about-this-anymore
Wow. Check out this quote from a Henry Abbott piece:
The Celtics didn't have a player rep present at the meeting....
KG fired up the troops and told em DON'T BACK DOWN TO THOSE RICH MOTHERFUCKERS YOU MOTHERFUCKERS. FUCKING ANYTHING IS POSSIBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
Classic. I feel like this further justifies my innate hatred for the Celtics.
Who is thus Kessler idiot?
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=7210085
Kessler is a lawyer, he only cares about the getting the best possible deal (according to him), he doesn't care about the relations between the players and the owners.
I know who he is, and I know who he works for, but every time he opens his mouth he comes off like a fool, the slavery metaphor for guys who all make more than the average american is pathetic, ridiculous, and moronic
Of course you know who he is, i meant that as an explanation why he acts the way he acts. A lot of lawyers would do anything to win, including being absolute idiots and taking all the heat on themselves. It's part of the job description IMO.
Hunter and Fisher are there to make the decision, Murphy explains the economic implications of every option and Kessler is there to do the dirty work, saving Fisher and Hunter's face in the media. The owners have a guy designated for the "dirty" work as well but they are playing the media so much better, that we are not even sure who that guy is.
Only stupid lawyers put their foot in their mouth. And this wasn't 'what it takes to win' this was 'i'm an over paid blowhard stuffed shirt and i'm about to stick my foot in my mouth, yet again, here, watch it as it happens, in slow motion even'
There are 'real' unions made up of people fighting to stay above the poverty line in some cases and you got the NBA Players lawyer rep using a slavery metaphor when even the lowest paid player is making 6 figures? That's an insanely stupid thing to do, especially when you have your 'president' talking about how it's a sad day for vendors and parking lot attendants, who don't make squadoosh.
Unions to me are a bad thing, they have way too much power and while needed in the pst aren't as needed now, and, for instance, union power and demands and lack of compromise helped lead to the destruction of the American Auto industry. (which isn't the point here I know) But to hear a 'union' of mostly millionaires talk about being plantation workers? Come on - this guy needs to be fired NOW
The situation is at the same time encouraging and sad. Encouraging, because all that talk from the NBPA after the meeting pretty much means that the players are ready to surrender, but will give it another shot.
Sad, because getting a deal done right now will probably mean we need to say goodbye to most of the competitive balance issues introduced to the CBA by the owners because the players will clearly have none of it.
The ability of "rich" teams to spend on mediocre players via the MLE, is crucial to the players because they know that without it, no matter what the actual BRI is, a much bigger portion of the total salaries will go to the star players and the medium level ones will have to settle for minimum deals.
Basically the players pretty much are simple to read, the stars want bigger BRI because it guarantees them more money, whereas everybody else is not really impacted all that much by the BRI but is heavily impacted by some of the "system" issues. The latter group is of course far bigger and will outvote the stars.
Since it's posturing it doesn't necessarily mean any of that whatsoever. Maybe the players still vote to decertify, maybe Stern meant what he said and there's no more negotiation and tonight it goes back to the 'flex cap' and 47 percent for the players.
As far as I'm concerned the players have lost most of their leverage and are being out maneuvered by the owners constantly and while they may not like their offer now, I think Stern will stick to his guns and in less than 12 hours it's going to get a lot worse for them
I think people are forgetting the true victims of this... For every player missing a paycheck there must be 15-20 friends, family and assorted hangers-on who are living off of them. Think of the sucker-fish and the shark or the lichens and moss on the tree. We should shed a tear for every last malingerer who will miss a rent payment for their subsidized lifestyle- because what did they every do to deserve this?
Someone needs to write a story about the poor NBA remoras.
Thought I would share this from the Wikipedia entry on remoras- since it seems fitting:
"The relationship between remoras and their perfect hosts is most often taken to be one of commensalism, specifically phoresy. The host they attach to for transport gains nothing from the relationship, but also loses little. The remora benefits by using the host as transport and protection and also feeds on materials dropped by the host. There is controversy whether a remora's diet is primarily leftover fragments, or the feces of the host."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remora
Here's what I think the owners should do
Go to the players and say, ok, here's your 51% of the BRI, however we just need to 'tweak the system' to make the BRI more fair to everyone.
The players basically want to maintain the broken system that allows teams to pretty much spend as much as they want...
Yeah, that's the rub. The guaranteed BRI split is kind of a smokescreen for the players side. They don't care if the guarantee is 50% if the system encourages the owners to push the actual split up 55%.
Which for all their posturing means they don't really wanna compromise - they just want to make it seem like they are compromising.
Do you think they realize that the owners aren't stupid?
I don't really give a shit about either side anymore. I just hope every fan who's ever watched a game realizes there's a deal on the table here that's been negotiated for months. This isn't a case of the owners saying "Fuck you, this is the same deal we offered back in June." This is the endpoint of negotiations, with a lot of concessions made on both sides from the starting points. The players have the opportunity to vote on it today and get the season started in early December. Every NBA fan in the world should be pushing for a vote from the union right now, and an approval to accept the deal by the end of the day, and if there's no vote, every NBA fan should direct their scorn right at the players.
I can see your point, but from the beginning I thought this was a 'break the union' kind of thing and didn't expect to see any games played until October 2012. Chess pieces have moved, but to me the board is still basically the same, just pieces in different places. I'm not really surprised by anything except the 'slavery' rhetoric people keep popping up for millionaires
If players want to win they have to take less money to pay with the tax teams. This doesn't restrict player movement, this just means they have to take less money Mr Fisher, Mr Hunter. So what is it, players want to be able to play for winners or you just want to make sure they're over paid no matter WHAT team they play for.
The teams that go over the tax are going to continue to go over the tax, they can afford it, and they'll find ways to circumvent the rules, they always do :)
Here's one positive out of the current deal: If the extend-and-trade is off the table, and the sign-and-trade can't be done by tax-paying teams, that means there's pretty much no way Dwight Howard can go to the Lakers.
Well, they could still trade for Howard and just wait until he hits free agency and sign him right? Bird Rights are still in the new deal aren't they?
The sides don't make their offers public do they? I mean aside from the spin they put out the deal points aren't available for perusal? (Yes I do plan on reading the new CBA when it's available :) )
Yeah, I haven't read anything about portability of bird rights. I wish that was a sticking point for the owners. The "melo rule" is kind of toothless w/out it. Melo could still force a trade to the Knicks, he'd just have to wait until the next summer to re-sign w/ them for the max using his Bird Rights.
Reports are that the owners and players will sit down again today - in about 30 minutes (1 pm eastern), 4 hours before the deadline. I suppose it's possible something gets done but open minds and a spirit of REAL compromise must be on both sides before they walk in the room. Stern keeps referring to the labor mediation board like they're really in charge of this thing. I have no idea why.
Oh yeah, idiot lawyer apologized
The lockout is ending today fellas. It will be time to celebrate tonight and get back to regular posting.
What exactly gives you this confidence?
Lets not overreact. They only scheduled a meeting. They might get out of it in 30minutes and say the union is decertifying and the season is canceled. It is the first "true" now or never day though.
or maybe it's as simple as the owners showing up because the players said they wanted to talk and they don't want to be seen as showing 'bad faith' - I see no reason to believe it's anything more than that. Stern was pretty clear on Saturday night, and monday night, about this being it. Maybe the players will sway them, but Stern already has a cadre, not half, but reportedly 8-10, owners unhappy with the plan as it currently exists. If he gives things away that number goes up.
I read the number of owners unhappy w/ the deal on the table is 15, but he can get 16 to vote for it now.
I was just guessing on numbers, what I heard was 'some' owners unhappy with this plan hoping the players wouldn't confirm but that Stern had enough 'sway' (my word) to get it through at least 15 owners.
But that's the current deal, any movement on it and who knows, both sides are really a house of cards kind of deal but at least the owners are ready to agree to a deal
And that's the point the players don't get - not all the owners are happy - not all the players will be happy - tha'ts how it's supposed to go - both sides lose
From what i've read (can't remember where) 16 owners would accept the current deal and 13 are hoping it gets fully rejected.
Question: Does Stern have a vote too, as the league represents the Hornets? How many votes are actually needed 15 or 16 to get it approved as a result?
Hmmn. I guess they'd need 15 other votes.
I would think you'd need 16 votes to get it approved, 15 only guarantees a tie - a tie wins?
Well, if Stern gets 15 others, he's got the New Orleans vote.
Ok, gotcha.
More likely they meet for 16 hours then come out saying they accomplished nothing... what exactly do they talk about during these marathon sessions that go nowhere?
Kate Fagan saying Josh Harris is part of "Hardline ownership willing to risk season for best deal".
Zach Lowe says "If Comcast selling 76ers costs everybody a season, everybody should call and comlain."
I believe comcast would be one of the hardline teams as well - so not sure it makes a difference if they sold or not.
HOWEVER, if new ownership group is one of the hardliners, I believe that should make a serious hit to any of the 'optimists' who thought the new owners meant bigger and better things.
To me - teams committed to winning first won't care much about the details so much as long as they can build a winning team.
Well, I'm not sure that statement really holds water. You don't have to say "let us spend as much money as possible" to be in favor of building a winner. If there's no cap on how much you can spend into the luxury tax, you're still at a disadvantage as the owner of the Sixers. The Lakers make a lot more money.
I'd think any smart owner would be pushing for the most restrictive system possible. then you're going to be able to minimize mistakes, while dumb owners won't have a means to recover from the mistakes they make. I think that's probably a preferable system for an owner who is confident he's got smart people to build his team, so he doesn't have to see all his hard work go for naught when the lakers spend $70M into luxury tax to get Dwight Howard.
I love when you write these things brian, which make total sense, and yet you're a yankees fan :)
Comcast most certainly would.
I know if I was wealthy enough to own a NBA team and truly wanted to "win", I'd want to get it on a court and see what I have, not haggle over bs.
I am not convinced that Comcast would have been on the hardliners' side. Comcast had much more to lose if there is no season. Comcast needs there to be games to make money off of their arena and have promgramming for CSN Philly. While the new owners probably make money if there is no season (they get TV money and have minimal operating costs.)
But I guess we will never know. Either way, it is disapointing that the new ownership is willing to flush the seasn dowbn the toilet, but I stioll feel like both sides get the blame for no deal being made.
Any update on the lockout?
CBS Sports is doing a good job with live updates:
http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33204622
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/chris_mannix/11/09/nba.labor/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a0
SI writer Chris Mannix, thinks that the owners are to blame if the season is over...
Has anyone heard ANYTHING that indicates what the 'conditions' are the players need to accept the 50:50
I'm assuming it's the full MLE for all teams, sign and trades, and bird right maintenance, hell I wouldn't be surprised if they just wanted everything the same but a shift to 50 instead of 53
Owners should respond:
Yes, if the players agree to give them money back if the players share of BRI creeps above 52%.
Problem (as the owners see it) is that the old rules (not just the BRI) prevented a competetive balance...not sure I agree or disagree, but there should be a bigger penalty than just 'cash' for going over the cap/tax level...or there is no disincentive for the teams making gobs over the teams not making gobs. It's common sense to me.
Matt Bonner Radio Interview...
http://podcast.tsn.ca/tsnradio/MattBonner_110811.mp3
^ San Antonio Spurs forward and the Executive VP of the NBAPA, Matt Bonner, spoke with Canada's TSN 1050 on the latest with the NBA lockout.
Like I asked before- what do they spend all of this time discussing when they get nowhere? Are they paid by the hour?
But I guess hope is still alive (but barely.)
Well there's proposals, nuance, counter proposal 'excuse us while we confere' - i'm sure they're not all sitting at the table the whole time - there's a plethora of issues and then there's the 'b' issues that haven't even been addressed yet
Yeah, they talk 16 hrs about nuances like the thread count requirement for player hotel rooms or the free ticket allotment for remoras... and then they finally mention BRI and the discussion dies.
If you were watching ESPN last night, Bucher explained what is likely going on in the rooom
Adrian Wojnarowski
The NBA and NBPA have made significant progress Wednesday night toward reaching a deal, two sources briefed on talks told Y! Sports.
Adrian Wojnarowski
No deal was considered imminent, but talks were expected to extend late into the evening. The two sides have been meeting for 7.5 hours.
How much progress can they make at this point without being close to a deal?
I guess this is why I am not a lawyer.
I'm not gonna get my hopes up just yet, I was duped last time they were close to a deal
Until I hear BRI and progress in the same statement I am not hopeful.
well, Dan Gilbert and Robert Sarver are apparently backing the current 50 50 proposal...reason for optimism?
I read Gilbert, but hadn't heard anything about Sarver.
All I know is that I'm glad those guys don't own the Sixers. They do not exactly represent the owners well.
SIxers are supposedly one of the hardline teams currently against the 50 50 deal. A little bit disappointing as they can't claim the "small market" defense
They are money guys, right:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33175/teams-value-rises-as-owners-split-grows
Small market attendance ...
Jrue getting little if any love from the talking ESPN Heads:
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-111107/ranking-five-best-nba-juniors
The same way that panel doesn't place any value on defense, I don't put any value in ranking players of different positions. I wouldn't take any point ahead of Stephen Curry and Jrue Holiday. They have the most potential as two-way players.
For 2's, I have a hard time believing James Harden is going to emerge as a special talent when he's neither a great ball-handler or shooter and is stuck between Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant.
Tyreke Evans and DeMar Rozan have been on some pretty terrible teams so they're hard to gauge. Marcus Thornton is a defensive zero and it's laughable that he was even ranked.
What's the second way for Curry?
It's unfair to say that he is going to be a bad defender for his career. He played defense poorly last season but for Golden State that's like saying water is wet. If he develops into an average defender then I think he could become a focal point for a good team. He has the potential to do so where as someone like Ty Lawson is always going to be limited by their size.
Is an average defender a two way threat?
If he's an average man to man defender that converts turnovers into points then you can call him what you want. I'm saying he can turn into a very balanced player.
Something I've wondered: Do poor defensive players know they're bad on defense? Defense is 80% effort and hustle, no? Logical conclusion is the player either doesn't care or the coaching staff doesn't emphasize/put players in right positions to succeed.
Ah the 'they don't play defense' defense...still don't buy that, at all...
Kevin Arnovitz goes on twitter and gives a couple hard line owners a few jabs...
Kevin Arnovitz
kevinarnovitz Kevin Arnovitz
Know who paid more in rent than the Milwaukee Bucks last year? You did.
11 minutes ago
Kevin Arnovitz
kevinarnovitz Kevin Arnovitz
Holt bought Spurs for $76M in 1996 & is carrying about $40M in debt. He could pawn his team to the lowest bidder and still clear $150-200M
17 minutes ago
Henry Abbott: Lots of people asking if there'll be a deal tonight. Don't know and in a way don't really care. What has happened is that they are so close -- came into today with little to fight about, now presumably have less -- that I'm totally confident there will be a season of some kind soon enough.
Stern: We've agreed to stop the clock while we contnue to negotiate. Back at noon tomorrow. Neither optimistic nor pessimistic.
...more of the same. Wed/Thurs marathon promise and the Friday collapse and acrimony. These guys must be paid by the hour.
I don't comment that much on the lockout mainly because I don't feel qualified to talk about it, but all of this negotiating seems ridiculous. What are they doing at all of these marathon sessions? Today seemed like such a waste.
They still seem so, so far apart.
Not that negotiating is a bad thing, but I have no idea how many more ridiculously long sessions I can take.
Agree 100%.
The only reason I have paid attention is that I can't wait to actually discuss/watch and hopefully enjoy an actual season.
Adrian Wojnarowski
Progress was made on three system issues, source tells Y! Sports
Adrian Wojnarowski
"There was absolutely movement today, enough to come back at it tomorrow," source in talks says.
Adrian Wojnarowski
So many of the system issues are linked, so it's a high-wire act of give-and-take to get them ironed out.
Assuming they reach a deal at 50/50 BRI, what will the salary cap be for next season? How much should we expect it to drop? And most importantly what is more beneficiary to the Sixers short term, compared to where other teams would be after using the "amnesty" and the free agents available.
I'm running to a meeting right now, but I can probably give you a rough number based on last season's math a little later.
Just using the most basic math, if they were playing under the old CBA this season, the cap would've been $60.69M. If the formula stays the same, but the split is dropped to 50/50, the cap would probably drop to around $52M.
I can't find out how much in expenses was subtracted from the BRI before the split is calculated, though, so this number is probably off, but not drastically so.
Didn't they 540 million earlier in the week?
I thought they said something around that, but the formula tells me it was more like $200M, so I just left it out and went w/ pure percentages. The salary cap for the past two years has represented between 47% and 49% of the raw BRI number, at 57% guaranteed.
Ok, maybe Woj and Abbot watched different press conferences than I watched last night.
First off - Mo Evans - get a jacket - you look ridiculous standing up there (and kind of scary) in that outfit.
There was no comment regarding any sort of movement, there was no indication from either side that the 'opponent' had moved any way in the 10ish hours of talk.
Hell, now instead of their being '5 issues' and the BRI there are a lot more issues that they have to talk about "B" issues as they put it (and if the draft is one of them as Broussard said, aside from the age limit, what do they need to talk about with the draft)
I think this is an act of going through the motions, of 'good faith' so when the NLRB hearing is heard neither side can be accused of bad faith. I have less confidence after yesterday than I had on Saturday when changes were actually put forth by ownership. I feel like the players really don't get the reality of what's going on. This isn't the NFL, it's not just a matter of how much profits to split, the NFL makes more on MNF rights than the NBA probably makes in an entire season (and keep in mind, the NFL has one more package that they'll inevitably sell for 17 weeks, I'd say in 2-3 years that Thursday Night Football is an all season kind of thing owned by a network not owned by the NFL, maybe TNT)
There was a question regarding progress to the player side last night, and while the answer was 'non descript' - the facial expressions from both Fisher and Hunter (Mo's facial expression just stayed the same, scary, the whole darn time) indicated almost derision at the idea of progress being made.
I don't know what was going on yesterday but neither PC gave any indication they were any closer.
However, Bucher indicated in his post PC report that the decertification movement does have the necessary 30% and if this 'negotiating session' doesn't pan out, the next move by the players will be to have that 30% petition submitted to the NLRB.
Taking odds on getting a deal made today - where are people at, I say it's only about 25% likely.
I'm not optimistic, probably less than 25%.
Odds there is a season if no agreement is made today?
No agreement made in this session (could stretch into tomorrow), I'd say 40-50%. I think if this falls apart, there's maybe a coinflip chance the union comes crawling back in time to have a season similar to the 1998 season.
"comes crawling back" doesn't relaly sound like the union right now, if the season hinges on the union bending, I'd put it at under 30%
I think the union is at a breaking point right now. The entire season isn't really in jeopardy, so they still have some cohesion. If these talks break down, you're going to have a lot of people facing going an entire year w/out a pay check. We started to see the cracks, I think they break wide open over the next month if there's no deal today.
According to something I read yesterday, forget where, players haven't really missed a check yet - first missed check is next Wednesday...so I guess we'll see.
I thinkt he decert vote is very bad
I was going to say the same thing.
The players have already lost money since games have been cancelled- but they have not missed a paycheck.
This is a big difference. It is one thing to be told that next year you won't get a paycheck. It is a much bigger deal to actually not have the cash right now. Sort of the difference between when people put stuff on credit cards versus actually taking cash out of their wallets- it should be the same, but seeing the actual cash go has a much bigger impact.
Right now players have not made any less money than they do normally. And once they do- the season will be already lost. This is why I think the escrow cash payment to the players was so harmful to the process. It pushes back the date the players actually miss a paycheck.
When do you suppose regular season games will begin if an agreement is reached today or tomorrow?
Most people have speculated that it would take about a month to run free agency, an abbreviated training camp and get the new schedule set up and game started
Probably about a month from agreement to first game.
UPdate from the CBS Blog (who puts it squarely on the owners it seems)
Well, that didn't take long. Reports are already starting to trickle in about things not going well at the meeting which started at noon EST. Alan Hahn of Newsday reports that inside of an hour in, he's not hearing positive feedback. Apparently the small-market owners have shown back up to bully and prod again, including reportedly Peter Holt, owner of the Spurs. SI.com reports that things sound "stalled." It's like we all keep waiting for the owners to blink in this game of chicken they're playing with themselves, and they just push the pedal harder.
eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33216824
Thanks, both. Thought about a month-and-a-half but a push sounds right, given the money drip & PR dent.
Read they could get a 76-game season in if this is resolved now. Would probably be a tough schedule, I think the Sixers have lost 15 games, something like that. Don't feel like looking it up right now, looking at the schedule depresses me.
Yeah - saw that too - but I still think if they get 50 this year it's a small miracle
deal is done supposedly...
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216468/Former_President_Of_Knicks_Jazz_New_CBA_Deal_Reached
Everyone's making fun of him on Twitter, apparently it's bogus.
I got really excited there for a minute...
ESPN 710 reported that he said it on ESPN 700 (in utah) and they're still talking about it like it's got legs because Cheketts history in the NBA (He runs an MLS team now)
This is the second story I've read about someone stealing some custom item from Shawn Bradley. I think this has to be some kinky thing some guy has with giant mormons.
As a distraction can you comment on how this Post Howard imaginary Sixer team would perform from 2012-2017? I know it won't happen, but humor me...
Scenario:
1. At deadline Iguodala traded for young shooter + expiring: Say Paul George + Posey
2. Young re-signed affordably for 5 years.
3. Then this summer Howard opts out... the Sixers use amnesty to dump Brand and Howard signs "Philly-max V.2"
Sixers Fall 2012 on:
Jrue
ET
George
Thad
Dwight
bench: Lou/Meeks/Voose/#1(defensive PF)/?Speights
Is that a legit contender as the team matures?
-again, I know this won't happen, so you don't have to say why it won't :)
Does Thad get taller, learn to play defense, rebound and have more than one move offensively?
Nope, but next to Howard I think it works. On the other side, if Thad drives past his man then it is an automatic hoop for him or Dwight. And I don't think there are many PF's who can stay in front of Young.
Get dwight in foul trouble (easy because Thad can't defend the buys)
It's not a contending team without a LOT of ifs falling the sixers way
And who is the coach when collis leaves in 2013?
Generally I don't believe that Thad is a 35+ per minute player...
d'oh - 35+ MPG player
Agree, that team would be young but thin in the frontcourt. Although their PG/SG/SF rotation would be solid.
I just wonder if they would end up any better than Orlando has been the past few years.
Rashard Lewis didn't do many of those things. They still made a final and were also very legit contenders the next year. Dwight covers up a ton of deficiencies on a team.
Then again, it won't happen so it's pointless.
Pointless, I guess. But it's more real than actual NBA games right now. So I guess I'm trying to invent some non Lock-out related discussion that is more pleasant to imagine than what is actually happening with the negotiating parties.
It's no more or less pointless than during the regular season...even if the season was happening, the sixers weren't a likely destination for Dwight Howard - ever - it's the kind of realgm high school speculation I am glad to be banned from :)
I agree that the Sixers have virtually no chance of acquiring Howard. I said as much in my initial post. I though using Howard in the hypothetical would make it a more interesting and tangible question, but clearly throwing his name out ended up being more of a distraction.
I simply wondered how that team would do- mostly because it involves projecting their young talent alongside a legit athletic center. They won't get Howard, but I assume they will get someone in the frontcourt who is less earthbound than Brand, Hawes or Voose.
So ignore Howard for a sec, and let me rephrase the question:
Project the Sixers core young players in 1-2 years if they can acquire a legit athletic big who can defend and finish in traffic. How good would that big need for them to be a contender?
Can't do it, sorry, Turners rookie year was just terrible...i mean projecting what will happen with him - I couldn't even begin try and figure where he's going to end up (and how the sixers get paul george is beyond me)
I think I've said it somewhere else that I'd keep Jrue and Evan and blow it up if at all possible
Yeah, Turner is really hard to guage. I think he will only be really succesful if he has compatable teammates.
I'm hopeful that Jrue plus a long shooter (that's why I mentioned Paul George) would be the right fit, since both can shoot and George is not a ball dominant type (more of a shooter.) It also would allow Turner to give you minutes at all 3 positions without asking ET to be a shooter or constantly guard SF's. And ET would likely draw a smaller defender most of the time- which would really help his offensive game.
Along the same lines, Thad's only hope as a 35 min player would be if the team found a physically dominant center. Also, it would be nice to see Thad be able to give you some minutes against longer SF's like Lebron, Durant, Gay and Granger- but that would be a surprising step at this point.
Young has the physical tools, but he just doesn't seem wired for perimeter defense- and I'm not sure that is something a player picks up with experience.
Larry Coon on ESPN Radio claiming some agents are making noises about steering clients away from the 'hard line teams'
BULL - they'll steer their players to the teams that offer the biggest contracts - period
Well it's indirectly truthful in the sense that the hard-line teams are mostly in boring markets that none of the good players want to go to anyways.
If the hard line team is the only one offering a client a full MLE for 4 years - the agent will not say 'don't take it - go play for a one year minimum in new york' cause - well - that's just dumb for the agent to do
http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33225313
It's gnot getting better folks - if berger is right
Negotiators for the league and players’ association made modest progress on the use of the mid-level exception for luxury tax-paying teams Thursday, but other guidelines governing exceptions and the tax level emerged as a new sticking point, three people briefed on the labor talks told CBSSports.com.
One of the people said league negotiators signaled a willingness to raise the so-called “mini mid-level” to three years starting at $3 million for teams above the luxury-tax level, to be available every other year. The previous offer was a two-year deal starting at $2.5 million, available every other year to tax teams. There was no indication union negotiators were ready to agree to this slight improvement in the owners’ proposal, as it would reduce the mid-level exception for tax teams from last year’s five-year, $37 million total to three years and $9 million for teams above the tax line.
Also Thursday, a new hurdle emerged in the discussion over when teams would face the new restrictions owners are proposing for teams above the luxury tax threshold. Two of the people briefed on the talks said owners were pushing for teams under the tax at the time of the transaction to be restricted from using the full mid-level — four-year deals starting at $5 million — if the signing put the team over the tax. In that case, the team would be restricted to use of the mini mid-level. Union negotiators want the new restrictions to be based on where a team’s payroll sits in relation to the tax prior to the use of the exception — not where it stands afterward.
After a 12-hour session Wednesday produced minimal progress, the two sides pushed past the eight-hour mark Thursday with the threat looming that league negotiators would pull their existing offer off the table and replace it with a worse one. The new offer, originally scheduled to be furnished to the players at 5 p.m. Wednesday but delayed due to the ongoing talks, would feature a 53-47 economic split in favor of the owners and also would include a hard team salary cap and rollbacks of existing contracts. The two sides currently are negotiating off a league proposal that would give the players a 50 percent share of revenue and maintain a soft-cap system — albeit with a vastly more onerous luxury tax system, more restrictions on exceptions, shorter contracts and smaller annual raises.
["The players aren't going to be hoodwinked on this one," one such agent told CBSSports.com.]
Agents are more than willing to see the players lose out on paychecks, as long as the agents don't lose out.
The new smaller exceptions would really cut into an agent's cut... are the players so blind to not see were their agents loyalties truly lie? Agents care about getting their money. And are brazenly showing they don't care about the p[layers sacrificing paychecks to protect the agent's piece of the pie.
Not blind. Entitled since childhood and agents don't do anything to stop it.
Someone made the point that 57 was the old cba. His point was that there is no starting point. The cba expired so years starting over
The whole if the mid level puts you over the tax, you can only use the low one is an interesting wrinkle though. Kind of screws most teams into using the ''tax' exception.
5 million became 9 million. 80 percent increase. Shame they won't see it that way
Also from article
Even if and when a deal is reached, agents who have long opposed the concessions delivered to the league by union negotiators will be advising their clients to review the proposal closely and vote against it if it isn't substantially different than what the players learned about Tuesday.
Shut. Up. Agents!
they're so close to a deal, rhetoric aside. If you believe Kate Fagan they'll have it wrapped up tonight or tomorrow
Kate Fagan
Source briefed on talks says this about having reached a deal: "Not yet, we have to cross T's and dot I's. Right there though."#NBA lockout
I believe national nba writs on the beat for years with multiple sources than one minor Philadelphia beat writer. Other guys have more credibilityf than her
Hell I wouldn't be surprised if her confidence was from the Chekkets comments which have been thoroughly discredited by almost everyone.
Woj and Aldridge have also reported progress from last night and today. Amick as well
And you chooser to go with Kate fagan as your lead?
I didn't believe any progress was made yesterday after the press conferences from both the nba and the players. Todays news all seems negative. Burgers been on top of this for a while
A deal isn't out of the realm of possibility but nothing today has made me more confident let alone a twit from Kate fagan for gods sake
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Owners revised offer will be working off current negotiations with players -- not the threatened 'reset' offer awaiting if talks broke down.
2 minutes ago
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
After finishing call with owners' labor relations committee, David Stern will deliver union a revised offer tonight, league sources tell Y!
7 minutes ago
Maybe this is the breakthrough?
please. I can't take this groundhog day nonsense much longer
This is it
Make no mistake where you are
This is it
Your back's to the corner
This is it
Don't be a fool anymore
This is it
The waiting is over
No room to run
No way to hide
No time for wondering why
It's here
The moment is now
About to decide
Seriously? Michael McDonald. Change your radio presets please :)
BTW, that was an obscure Kenny Loggins reference to an even more obscure ABC 6 local TV show from the 80's.
And here I thought it was Michael McDonald
My boss knows logging. He sings at the Christmas party
God I remember that tv show. Now I is old too
I just looked it up- Written by Loggins, performed by Loggins and MacDonald, so you remembered it right.
"This is It" was on Channel 6 in the 70's/80's. Made by the same producer who made "Captain Noah."
God I'm old
40 in four months
Jump to 30 second mark- it is classic. even a Wonder Years reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ0f5f-z4S0
And Mayor Wilson Goode at the end of the clip... Osage Ave memories streaming back. Yeah, we are old.
When i was a kid I used to have 1210 on my alarm. So I woke up the MOVE siege.
I remember Gary papa
I did not realize he just passes 2 years ago. I liked most of the local anchors back in Philly growing up. Nowadays I never watch local news.
I don't watch national news either
Jim obrien did his lasts successful parachute jump at my summer camp
This clip is even better. We had some great teams to root for back then... not to mention the world's largest menorah!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaP1sfCBwiw
Sounds like there's a revised offer coming tonight...hope the union is willing to take it to players so we can end this circus
They've been meeting all damn day. And yet they can't give the revised offer until after the meeting? Jesus that's stupid to me
If its points they discussed and agreed upon it would not just be an offer. Well see what happens.
I think we are crossing the finish line!!! Vucevic & Hawes here we come!!!!
Yeah. No
Watch the players pc on now
Yeah, this is clearly getting settled though. Just at a brutally slow pace.
Well duh
At some point the nba will play again
I doubt before January 15 2012
Here comes the decertification vote folks.
The players seems to be saying we've moved all were going to move
More like here comes the final power struggle between the union and the agents. If the agents win we get no season- but they get access to even more agent cuts when players have their old contracts voided.
And if Hunter/Fisher win then you will have a deal by Wednesday. But I think the agents are much better at what they do than the Union leaders.
Meetings over, press conference soon, I'm assuming they'll be carrying it on nba tv
Yeah, things can't really tank until Friday- hasn't that been the pattern for the past month?
No talks until Monday according to hunter
God someone define concessions for the players
You can't concede any if there is no deal. There's nothing to concede. The old cba is dead period. Tis is a new one
Yeah they don't understand negotiations. The previous CBA was 100% favorable to the players, 0% favorable to the owners. Yet the players only think an owner "concession" is giving the players something better than the previous CBA had. Not happening you fools!
Ughhhh, no sense of urgency at all, Hunter/Fisher not going to talk to the player reps until Monday or Tuesday! Lametown. When you're unemployed, you shouldn't be taking weekends off!
Marbury calls out Jordan
Good that's guy playing in china pipes up
http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33209166
Instead of Be Like Mike, we should probably take our life lessons from Starbury.
Players ancillary issues six pages long
This gets farther away every time these folk talk it seems
Do you think like I do that the 5 players standing behind Hunter/Fisher just looks unbelievably abrasive? This is a press conference, not a death match in the ring against the owners.
Mo Evans looked the same last night. I think they're told to look stoic and angry
Still have n faith this is almost done
Suddenly there are six pages of issues to deal with. Why the hell haven't they been mentioned until now. Just freak minor crap that should have been settled already so that when you have agreement in the major points. The deal is done
Both sides are buffoons right now. More Stern double talk saying nothing to start in a few seconds
How people can watch these press conferences and be encouraged is beyond me. the words don't match how they look and stand and comport. It's very odd
I'm encouraged. Hunter/Fisher appeared quite positive in comparison to past PC's. That's quite an improvement in my opinion.
Six pages sounds like nothing. These labor deals are hundreds of pages long. It's things like minimum age. Players will fold on minimum age in a second.
Six points takes up a page and they can't agree on those yet you think six pages will be easy. At this pint I believe they'll argue every point to the death purely on principle
Clearly not a lawyer :)
It sounds like they reached a deal- but neitehr side knows if they can get it past a vote. So they are going to try and sell it to their sides over the weekend and then come back for the final tweak next week (unless the Agents/Celtics and low rent owners rule the day.)
At least that is my take.
Fisher and hunter don't even sound like they're sure if they're going to ask for a vote. I predict a decertification vite
They certainly won't take it to a vote unless they are confident it passes.
For all that the union is weak- at least it represents the players interests.
To use their own words, the agents hoodwink the players they represent.
Agreed. I think it's become clear to Hunter and Fisher that Stern is fighting his hardliners, he's doing what he can to give the players what they need. The insanity from the hardliners is very real, and it would be a complete disaster to test them
Agreed with you and tk. Stern can only hold off the hardliners for so long. His "ultimatum" was really more of a "here's what I can get you, I can only hold it for so long so let's get down to business right now."
I think Hunter/Fisher take this offer to the players reps, who will privately tell Hunter/Fisher "this deal is fine" but will publicly say "we're making progress but still need more system tweaks."
The settlement is well on its way. Basketball will return.
the fact that they're going to take the deal to membership signals that they realize this is as good as it's going to get
Not membership
Player reps
Not the same thing
the player reps take the pulse of their team and present that in the rep meetings though
Well it would be awesome to take the pulse of a team before they know ther damn deal wouldn't
It?
The meeting on Monday is the board of the players union which isnt the same as the full union. Reps can't take a pulse without knowing the deal points now can they?
If the board doesn't approve it wont be presented to the full union from what Im understanding
The player reps decide on Monday if the full union sees it. Not vice versa
My point is that the players are going to pressure their reps to at least bring it to a vote. Regardless of whether or not it's an ideal offer, there's going to be tremendous pressure to let the 450 members decide whether to accept it or not. It's clear that this is their last best offer, and I'm sure that's apparent to the union.
So you're just spitballing guessing. Contrary to how the union functions and the fact that they said they're going to present it to the reps next week just like they did on Tuesday. So the union members will pressure a vote without seeing the deal first huh?
Just like how all those players were publicly calling for a vote before the reps met Tuesday and yet the council rejected a vote idea?
I saw nothing tonight that indicates a change in the leaderships opinion since the Tuesday meeting.
You've gotta read through the lines with these PC's, Hunter and Fisher have to act tough as to not make it look like they've completely capitulated. I think they do their best to sell this offer to the players and avoid chaos. Just hope the idiots like Paul Pierce and Spencer Hawes doesn't have a lot of pull.
It's my thinking that the tough talk dissipates once the players are allowed to vote in anonymity.
that PC was actually quite calm and conciliatory in comparison to previous PC's. While it's a little disappointing only because we wanted a deal tonight, Hunter said "it's not the greatest deal in the world," let's remember than just a week ago he said "this is an awful deal that we will not even present to our members."
Did Kessler speak? He is the Don King of labor press conferences.
haha I think that plantation comment resulted in his permanent banishment to the corner.
They didn't confirm they're even going to present the deal to the full union yet and there's still the decertification vote
French dude asks stupid question. billy hunter very unimpressive in the last week
Posturing to me. Putting on a brave face to give people hope. I dont buy it yet. Still want to hear what stern says
All this talk of. Compromise and yet the players didn't mention a single issue moved on AND six pages if additional issues?
And now let's take three days off? If ther was a finale on the horizon why the hell do you take three days off to kill any moments towards a deal? Why can't they use modern technology. God
My poor patient gf enduring these ocs with me. Adam silver is 'creepy' :)
So the ultimatum still stands. Agree to this deal or get a worse one
No one is making the revised points public wtf?
72 game season?
The quest for 36-36 could commence 12/15.
At least the nba is on top of scheduling issues. Thanks creepy bald guy
Can't wait to watch the Celtics-Lakers, Spurs-Mavs double header with both teams on the back end of a back-to-back-to-back.
If you read sportscasting the abbreviated season might be an interesting study on their back to back rest study that they did
Scorecasting. Auto correct must turn off
Genius move by Stern. Get everyone ready for a 12/15 start subject to union approval. Players are thinking "checks start coming in 12/15!" Hunter acknowledged he has a duty to present this for a vote (finally). Settlement is coming.
Checks don't come until two weeks into the season approximately
Ok, genius move, "checks will come by 12/31! get 'er done!"
If the players are that shortsighted they deserve to get the shaft.
He said that?
Why does he all of the sudden feel that duty now and not 2 weeks ago when they were looking at a full season?
No. He said that if the players approve this deal by the deadline of next week they'll have a 72 game season probably that you'll start on the fifteenth of December (30 days approximately)
Silver said they redo the schedule almost daily to account for a new start date based on when it might end.
I don't think there was any thing conniving or mahchievelluan. It's just the math.
The difference this time around is the revolt by the likes of Steve Blake, Kobe Bryant, LeMarcus Aldrige, and probably over a hundred guys who just didn't want to go public. Before that, Hunter had no duty to go to the players because they weren't clamoring for a vote. Now they are, and he must present it for a vote.
Does anyone else think sterns constant referral to the mediator is a little weird? It's weird to me he keeps mentioning them as part of the negotiating.
Hey at least the players got a table today
"There's not enough progress to get a deal done," Fisher said. "That's the disappointing part. We want to get back on the court."
Now, the union will regroup, talk to their player representatives, figure out what to do next and possibly resume negotiations with the league next week.
that can be framed to mean that there's not enough progress to make a handshake agreement tonight with the full confidence of the union.
I really think if/when the players get to vote, they'd rather get their paychecks and play basketball than fight it out in court. Most of them haven't even bothered to get proactive until the 11th hour...
Which player is the one in the ripped jeans at the pc.? Strong showing
If the season does start on Dec 15 does that mean the Sixers will basically start the season on the annual Ice Capades road trip from hell?
Yep. maybe they can find another arena for a few weeks. they are no longer owned by Comcast.
They have a contract to play the home ganes dont they?
Mediocre teams often get screwed anyway. Just make em start the season on the west coast for a week. Work their way back for a week. Texas. Midwest. Florida
Nba doesn't care much about the sixers
For those who asked about the draft if a season is missed
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=7214333
3 year weighted average- maybe Eddie Jordan can help them again.
36.33 wins is their unweighted average over three. 36.8 over the past five. I'm assuming that would put them right on the cusp of the lottery, but I'm not going to figure it out for the rest of the teams.
I think I might be able to actually do that if you care about it. My databases come in handy :)
I'm guessing that will get you about a #10 pick.
Jesus Christ, just fucking vote on it. If they hold a vote and the proposal gets turned down, then fine. More than half of the players in the league are either (A) morons or (B) willing to sacrifice a year's pay for...well, I don't know what they'd be sacrificing it for. Principle I suppose, because they're never going to make back the $2B they'll lose this next season, and they aren't going to wind up getting a better deal between now and next November.
They get to sacrifice the season in the interest of their agents- who don't care as much about BRI as they do things like system issues that might restrict big spenders from throwing around insane MLE contracts to scrubs.
I'm now finding the whole thing entertaining the players ate so dumb
kevin durant is being an asshole to some fans on twitter.
These guys are pretty delusional, it's embarrassing. Turner asked today if the lockout was over on twitter, as if he had no idea that he has to vote on it before any of that can even happen.
I read somewhere that like half of the players voted last time. It only takes a majority of the guys who actually bother to vote to approve a CBA.
The players get what they deserve and probably why the owners are trying to bitch slap thrm
The players seem livid with the deal tonight, but Hunter is the one who wants to wait till Monday to bring reps in...perhaps give them the weekend to cool off? I don't know, but I do think they'll do their best to sell this to the union.
Caught a tweet that said a source knows that some players are borrowing money at 18.5% interest during this lockout...Kind of falls in line with what was reported the other day that Fisher is concerned that players didn't save their money despite the warnings.
Again - how can the reps cool off over a deal they know nothing about. It's asinine if they have an offer to wait - 'get everyone in one place' - you derek - heard of conference calls, skype, go to my pc? Jesus christ.
It's my opinion, that the wait to get everyone in one place is so that fisher and hunter can frame their presentation to the reps to influence them in the way THEY want them to vote, which I believe is a dereliction of their duty.
Reps don't get the full contents of the deal until Monday (or even Tuesday) and they call for a vote from the reps at the same time, when they haven't had time to digest the deal.
I find everyones optimism fascinating since nothing either side said last night indicated the new offer was much better than the old one the players reps rejected unanimously just two days ago
Seems maybe people are confusing their own desperation for basketball
Not voting is essentially equal to rejecting the proposal. There is no need for all players to vote. Just enough to get the deal passed.
Anyway, this thing is getting settled one way or the other very soon. They will have all of next week (possibly more) to negotiate, decertify and vote on the deal and still start the season on the 15th of December. I actually think that all of the above will happen in some shape or form.
Th majority of the players will vote the way the union tells them IMO since they are not the most intelligent bunch, they have no idea about economics (hence so many broke former players), but they know the union as a whole has their best interest in the end.
Also, Turner not caring about the lockout is a good thing IMO. He should be working on his jump shot and explosiveness instead of wasting his time on lockout BS.
Adande with an interesting take
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33240/finally-the-real-fight
Yep, the fight is whether players or teams have control over player movement (and to a degree how this effects agents.) But I completely disagree with his take on the issue. What the owners want is good for fans. While what the players want is good for frontrunners who like to follow teams like the Heat and Lakers.
It would be interesting to know financially is it better for the league to have a few super-teams that are good for playoff drama and national ratings, or is it better to support the core fans of the majority of teams, by allowing them at least the illusion of being able to be competitive?
IMO, it is the core fans of each franchise that is the backbone of the league. If in the majority of cities home teams are marginalized (like the Sixers are in Philly), then the league loses its spine and will never be able to be part of the fabric of civic pride the way teams are in other major sports.
For example, if the Cowboys and Patriots were in the Superbowl 50% of the time it would make for epic Superbowls, but overall I think the intense civic pride that drives FB attendance and passion throughout the country would dry up once it became clear that the deck was stacked against the home teams. Much like how baseball is not strongly supported in Pittsburgh because they never will contend.
Brian, as a Yankee fan, what is your take on this?
IMO, it is the core fans of each franchise that is the backbone of the league.
counterpoint. The core fans of each franchise will come back and support the team, good or bad, because they are core constant fans. The 'extra' money - the increase in incomes comes from the casual fan, and casual fans are drawn to winning, and dynasties, (bandwagons if you like) and superstars facing off on television.
I haven't seen a breakdown, but I'd be willing to bet the largest percentage of income the NBA makes is from the tv deals with ESPN and TNT/Turner, and the better the ratings, the better the deals.
In the end, just like your favorite tv show, it's about the ratings
If the league really wants to make the most money, they should create rules that make the Knicks, Lakers and Celtics field shitty teams. Those teams are going to fill up their arenas no matter what, put the stars in the second-tier markets where the seats will only be filled up with star players.
So keep Lebron is Cleveland as long as possible...
Yep, I'd love to see how much The Decision winds up costing Cleveland over the next five years.
If the owners can't collude, why can the players.
The hole secret handshake thing irks me more than anything. It means that my team has zero shot- and then they rub salt in the wound by putting on a show about actually considering other teams.
I'm not against players recruiting their friends. But when it is a secret arrangement worked out over several years and involves lying publicly then there should be consequences.
I assuming it has something to do with how labor is defined versus a union myself.
I'm not a labor lawyer - anyone know anyone?
In the real world if three friends decide to go work for the same company it is not a problem. Nor if 3 great musicians decide to join the same orchestra or collaborate on an album.
But professional sports is unique- mostly because it benefits from a large amount of public funding and anti-trust provisions.
Well now you're just being obtuse. I assume if it were a violation of labor law the NBA would have filed a claim, and yet they didn't. I don't know labor law, but I'm guessing what they did isn't the same as 30 owners getting together and saying 'no player makes more than x, but don't tell anyone we said this'
The sanctionable part was when presumably Wade went to his owner and said that if you blow up the roster then he has a secret promise that Lebron and Bosh will sign for below market value.
That probably does not bbreak a law, but I assume that owners are not supposed to "negotiate with players currently signed to other teams."
I'm not even sure what the real definition of collusion is - but at the same time - tons of teams were cleaing cap space to make a run at these guys - what arinson did could be considered 'insider trading' i guess - but is that the same as collusion? He didn't 'conspire' with any other members of the labor side did he?
I'm not sure on the terminology either.
But owners are not allowed to make handshake deals with players who are currently under contract.
Wade making a handshake deal with Lebron and Bosh two years before they became free agents might have been allowed. But once he let his owner know- and the owner took action to facilitate it things went over the line. My guess is that the other owners would have majorly punished Miami if they had proof.
Maybe the difference is as simple as neither wade nor bosh nor lebron can actually SIGN a player to a contract?
But right now the non-competitive teams/markets are losing money. Doesn't that suggest that the current imbalanced system is flawed? Or does simply going to more revenue sharing and a different BRI equation permanently fix this.
I'm pretty loyal, but I won't follow the Sixers if I get the sense that they don't have at least a decent chance of becoming a contender. I can deal with bad luck or poor decisions by management. But if it looks like players will only choose to go to a small group of other teams, then I'll stop watching. I gave up on the Phillies 15 years ago for this very reason(ironically as it turned out.)
does the 7% make up the 300 million imbalance? It probably does.
The thing is WHY are these teams losing money - if it's because they sign really asinine contracts, or are paying four or five former coaches - that's not on the players or the system - that's stupid management
That's what I want to know - what teams are losing how much - '300 million' is a gross number - but if the wzards are losing money cause they were paying gilbert (then rashard) and jamiso - that's not the system - that's their own stupidity
It's tough to get your mind around it, but I just come back to the big picture. Even with Gilbert Arenas, Joe Johnson, Rashard Lewis and all the other asinine contracts last season, the players still didn't reach their 57%, and the teams still lost a ton of money. I mean, if they all only made smart decisions with their money, they'd be at like 45% and just cutting giant checks to the union to make up the difference.
the last figure I heard was $40M per percentage point, so $280M.
My latest on SB Nation Philly. http://philly.sbnation.com/2011/11/11/2553688/nba-lockout-update-72-games-or-nothing
My take on the Adande post is that the league can only grow by enlarging the field of "core" fans as tk76 put it for each team (essentially the total core fans).
The current situation is simple. The total number of fans remain largely the same (at least in the US) and the league makes the most money when the teams with the most followers are successful. The number of total followers however is very small compared to what that number could be if the field was even and each team had a equal chance to compete.
Also, while a Lakers Heat matchup in the finals would have the highest TV ratings, that comes as a trade off to a much lower combined TV rating for all teams during the regular season, since most matches aren't interesting at all due to imbalance.
And most importantly, the biggest reasons why the "big market" teams are popular is because they have successful history, and they were successful in the past because they had a huge advantage over small market teams. If the league would suddenly become balanced, it would take at least 10 years to develop fan following for the successful teams in that time span. If each team can be successful each team will have followers.
Anyway, all these new system issues won't fully resolve competitive balance, but they are a step towards it. You can't change a flawed system overnight. It takes at least a few consecutive CBAs with balance changes to fix it, possibly more.
Even if things are not completely fair- there needs to be at least a perception of fairness, or fans will bail on their teams.
To add to my previous post, international fans are more and more important too, not just US fans. The Spurs for example have a far greater support in Europe than the Knicks. The Thunder are a small market team that already has huge international following, and an emerging fan base. All this means that success leads to more fans and you have to give each team an equal chance to have a massive fan base.
Curious - do you have numbers to back this up
The spurs make sense, but europe isn't rooting for the spurs, they're rooting for a player
I bet the mavs are huge in germany - will they be once dirk retires?
Any team with a Chinese player has a huge following.
and yet the argentinians couldn't care less about the sixers. Figures we get the one foreigner w/out a following.
I know YAO had a huge following (rockets popularity probably plummets now) but does Yi influence the popularity of the Nets or Bucks (he's on the Bucks now right?) in China? I hadn't heard any reports, which is why I didn't mention China though I started to :)
But I still think the majority or euro fans are player specific
I remember watching Wizards games, when Yi was not even playing, and the billboards at the scorers table were 75% in Chinese. That suggests that Yi is still a draw.
There are still a fair amount of Sixer fans internationally because of Iverson. You have to figure if a kid grows up following a team they will probably stick with them.
I've read reports about this in the past (european media), have no idea where, so i can't show them to you unfortunately.
And it's true that teams that have local "heros" are huge in each respective country (China and the teams with chinese players, Germany and Dirk are great examples). There are still a huge amount of fans remaining though, which mostly follow some of the competitive teams.
Stars influence this as well, and Iverson has provided a massive fan base, but it's slowly dissipating on behalf of other teams.
The 4-Down Podcast, Episode 37: Kevin Arnovitz of ESPN.com
Read more: http://www.48minutesofhell.com/4-down-podcast-kevin-arnovitz-espn#ixzz1dQAYVE3Z
http://www.48minutesofhell.com/4-down-podcast-kevin-arnovitz-espn
Before the NBA players union and owners ended talks for the night and announced that a revised offer was on the table for players to consider, Kevin Arnovitz joined Graydon and me on the latest episode of the 4-Down Podcast. Kevin is a NBA writer for ESPN.com and the editor of the TrueHoop Network, so he knows basketball pretty well. Kevin also started ClipperBlog.com, so you know he’s dedicated to the NBA if he’s willing to blog about the Clippers as far back as 2006.
On this week’s episode, we talked a lot about the business around the NBA. Not the lockout per se, but things like the NBA being successful in small markets, the global TV market eventually being a breakthrough for the NBA and Kevin’s idea of a 44 game season for the league.
My sources tell me that the Union will recommend against accepting the latest offer.
Since when did you get sources?:)
Yeah, I was being sarcastic.
I heard it on the radio.
Well maybe the guy on the radio had sources?:)
I don't believe that it will get out of the 'executive committee' myself
Well, I no longer find the Phillies amusing and worth watching in an "I don't care" manner. Papelbon is a piece of crap. Enjoy his pseudo-intimidating kissy face as he's blowing big games.
Man, I knew you'd have something to say about that as soon as ESPN announced it.
Maye the phillies can keep madson two and have two great closers while mariano continues to age
Mariano is aging? Funny, couldn't tell by the stats. And Robertson's better than Madson and Papelbon, so I'm really not worried about the end of the pen.
Save stats - second most useful stat after holds :)
Yeah, advanced stats make Mo look terrible.
but they make papelbon look better than people think he was last year (and better than madson)
That was mighty circular of you.
Sorry, bit out of it, 3 surgeries for the gf in a month causes chaos sadly
Ugh, sorry to hear it.
Nothing life threatening, more 'long term preventative' but still pretty hard on her and thus hard on me
I'd have rather kept Madson, but what do I know.
Papelbon is a machine, great signing for the Phils. Big step up from Madson.
Thank you - i needed to throw up in my mouth a little
I don't have a problem with Papelbon (although he does annoy me, but I'll overlook that if it helps my team win), I have a problem with giving ANY reliever who pitches 60-70 innings a year a long term, big money deal.
Ruben Amaro is the anti-sabremetrician.
I'm going to go from Kenny Loggins to Kenny Rodgers in my take on the union mulling the latest Stern offer.
Throw some Wyclef in there - it's a much better song
Heh, there does seem to be some room for abuse in this:
Here's the link.
there's also a mistake in that article. It says teams can't use the MLE if using it will take them over the cap, but that should probably read they can't use the MLE if it will take them over the tax level.
The ability to send them down to the D-League and only have to pay them a lesser salary in their first five years would be a huge thing if you wind up drafting a dud like Thabeet. I'd have to see the exact language, but I'm wondering if you could send a guy who was injured down, the five-year window would bring guys who've already signed their first big contracts into play, like Rudy Gay this past season.
I'm no longer feeling the least bit confident there will be a season.
And the union which lvoes their guarantees is going to agree to this NBDL thing? Seriously, it's like the owners modified but still made it so the union wouldn't approve (which doesn't surprise me)
Now it's being reported that Bucher was wrong, that concept was dropped weeks ago. Gotta love the twitter era of sports journalism...
I still think in the 'twitter era' of communication journalists beat the players by like a million thousand
And yet ESPN hasn't pulled the article.
It's an article on ESPN.com - and bucher is a pretty respected writer, so either he got used, or his information is accurate, I doubt he'd make stuff up
unfortunate because it sounds like the players get their news from ESPN rather than their player reps. Sam Amick is saying that he's hearing from a lot of players complaining that they never even hear from their player reps throughout the process.
Jason Terry said the league is basically trying to get rid of the middle class, which is a stupid thing to say when the lower class is making 7 figures a year, but whatever. Personally, I think that's how things should be in the league. They should probably raise the max salary if you really want to pay players what they're worth, and teams should be able to afford to put a good team around a star, or a bunch of scrubs around two stars.
The players really need some lessons in public perception
Maybe Hunter should have enacted a gag order much like Stern has...
If the idea was to gain sympathy with the fans, they've failed miserably. And now that they're bitter, you've got guys like Durant telling his twitter followers to shut up and that they'll come crawling back no matter what.
"In life and society there are three classes: There's the upper class, the middle class and lower class," Terry said. "And what the owners are trying to do right now, what their proposal is, get rid of the middle class so you have one or two guys on each team making 'X' and the rest of the guys crunched down at a smaller number and then no middle ground."
Which, if you want to be realistic, is probably the most capitalistic way of looking at the NBA. A stars league, where the stars are probably arguably underpaid, especially with the current proposal and max contracts decreasing.
ANd the middle class. Is over paid sometimes grossly
Yeah you rashard
Gilbert
Antwan
Yup. Especially upper middle class, but middle (mid-level exception) too long and high priced. Mid-tier players aren't worth average player salary.
And the owners wanna try and fix a system that over pays a majority of players
And the players want to continue to be over paid and to me have yet to see e reality of the situation
Hunter and Fisher HAVE to be aware of the end game right? I'd at least hope that the players are aware that there's virtually no chance that they get a deal this good ever again if they pass it up....
They want to leave the league in a great place for the future, but they're going to end up leaving them with a steaming pile of crap if they don't calm down.
At least at 50/50 you can hire more competent labor committee in 6 years and attempt to renegotiate a better position. The path they're going, in 6 years the union is going to end up trying to negotiate themselves out of mid 40's BRI and a hard cap when it's all said and done.
Mind boggling.