ESPN.Com Chats
jason (philadelphia) do you see iguodala getting traded?
David Thorpe Not now. Maybe in Feb if the team starts dropping more games.
Jack (NYC) Is it too early to call Evan Turner a bust? Why is he playing so poorly?
Chad Ford Too early. Needs the ball in his hands more. Bad fit for the Philly team. Fit matters in the draft. Some players get great opportunities, others struggle based on minutes, system, etc. Turner was always a questionable fit there ... but neither the Sixers nor his agent understood it. They do now.
Dan (Philadelphia) Why wouldn't the Sixers trade Iggy now? His value is the highest it is gonna get with the team winning and they are fooling themselves if they think they can go somewhere in the playoffs.
Ric Bucher I'm with you. For whatever reason, a lot of teams -- Philly, Phoenix, to name two -- are looking to make the playoffs even if a quick exit is likely than starting to rebuild now. My sense is owners are counting on the labor pact to level the playing field somehow, so they figure "let's go get a little piece of the playoff pie now and worry about what state that leaves us in" later.
HOOPSWORLD.com Chats
larry bird in : how about dunleavy, posey, thansbrough for brand and evan turner?
Bill Ingram: I don't see the Pacers making a move that brings in Brand's contract and sends out hansbrough, who they really like. The Pacers are taking the OKC approach, building around their young players and draft picks, no major roster-shaking moves.
Pat in : In the "time to trade" you wrote 6ers fans would love to get rid of Brand. Just wanted to let you know most 6ers fans I talk to,including myself,would much rather get rid of Iggy. Much rather have an overpaid big.
Joel Brigham: Point taken. The problem with Brand is that he's really, REALLY overpaid, and they'd like to be out from under that albatross if they could. Iguodala is hot enough and young enough that they could move him whenever they wanted, but finding a taking for Brand at his age at that money with that injury history is going to be impossible. He's going to be very frustrating over the next few years.
Adrian in NY: Are you suprised that meeks & holiday are balling??
Lang Greene: Not at all. Those guys can play ... but can they be the type of players that turn that production into wins for their team. Most guys in the NBA will put up numbers if given consistent minutes.
RANKINGS
ESPN.com - Marc Stein
17th (16th previously) An eight-game road trip actually starts to sound pretty good when you go to Orlando right after it trades away half the team ... and when you go to Denver and Melo doesn't play ... and when a blizzard strikes back home.
CBSSports.com - Dave del Grande
20th(18th previously), silly notes connected to contracting some teams
Contraction Dispersal Selection: Derrick Favors. The 76ers get the guy some thought they should have taken in June. Let the bidding on a somewhat rejuvenated Elton Brand commence.
Hoopsworld.com - Eric Pincus
16th (17th previously) The Sixers are inching closer and closer to the top eight in the East. In the middle of a brutal road trip, they're 2-2 including wins over the Magic and Nuggets.
NBA.com - John Schuhmann
17th (17th previously) The Sixers' lineup change has been critical to their move up the standings, but their second best plus-minus mark belongs to Thaddeus Young, who's started just one game. Young has improved this season more than he regressed a year ago. He's scoring less per game, but has been much more efficient.
Sports Illustrated - Britt Robson
20tth (16th previously) Thaddeus Young continues to be a matchup nightmare for opponents; he's too big for small forwards and too quick for power forwards. On Sunday in Denver, the 6-8 Young sent Denver's Shelden Williams to the bench for good with a second-quarter explosion that put the Sixers back in the game after a slow start. Then coach Doug Collins paired Young with Elton Brand in a small-ball frontcourt that fueled a decisive fourth-quarter comeback, forcing Denver coach George Karl to try four different players on Young. He finished 6-of-9 at the rim and 4-of-6 on two-pointers from 16-23 feet. His 15 points, eight rebounds and four assists weren't enough to prevent Monday's loss to Golden State. But Philadelphia is still a respectable 2-3 more than halfway through its eight-game, 17-day road trip.
Fanhouse.com - Brett Pllakoff
17th (17th previously) Philadelphia didn't have Andre Iguodala available for its game against Phoenix, but you wouldn't know it based on the final result, one in which the Sixers got the win and put up 123 points against the defenseless Suns.
ARTICLES
G Cobb - Is Evan Turner a Bust
Hoopshype.com - Turner Can't Find His Game
New York Times - Shooting Lab Helps Make Swishes Come True
Hoopsworld.com - Time To Trade (Eastern Conference)
BusinessInsider.com - Andre Iguodala Shows Why the Biggest Salaries Should Go To The Biggest Scorers
NYTimes.com - Tribute to the Trillions
Courier Post - Improved Defense a Credit To Collins
Yahoo.com - Marc Spears - Stardom Doesn't Arrive Quickly for Turner
Philly.com - 'Promoter Bill' threatened to kill alt-music scene (Iguodala even inspired bill?)
BDL - Beyond the Box Score - Where the Sixers Put it all Together
ESPN.Com - Peter May - Article on Turner Struggles
NBA.com - Fran Blinebury - Resolutions (or two) for every NBA Team
HOOPSHYPE.com Rumors Page
But Turner, continuing a trend of rookie flops this season, has been relegated to a spot deep on the bench. He did not play Wednesday against the Celtics, his second DNP-CD in three games. What's more, Turner has registered six scoreless games and is shooting 35 percent in December. He was replaced in the starting lineup by former Kentucky sharpshooter Jodie Meeks, and his performance has been the biggest disappointment this season in Philadelphia. "This is rock bottom," he said. "It can't get any worse, in my mind-set. I just have to work at adapting, trying to pick up the things the team's doing and try to fit in somewhere and try to find a niche. The only way to go is up, and that's pretty much it. Every day has been a learning experience." Boston Globe
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Man, those Hoopsworld writers make ESPN guys look like geniuses. Bill Ingram thinks it's the Pacers that would turn down a Dunleavy, Posey and Hansbrough for Brand and Turner offer. Does this guy watch basketball at all...
That one is mindblowing. A typical trade idea from a fan - players his team doesn't need for a player he wants - and the "expert" takes it seriously. The Pacers "really like" Hansbrough? I don't think so.
What we all hoped for is finally happening, that Turner "gets it", and starts playing with confidence. How do we feel, or what are the odds that Mo Speights "gets it" within the next month or so. How many DNP's will it take or is he just happy collecting a paycheck.
Tha amount of Sixers articles nationally seems to be decreasing so maybe the talk of Iggy staying and Rod and Doug being patient will turn out to be true. A tweak move may be all we see.
I'm not confident that Speights will get it, but he seems to have a good attitude (cheering his teammates from the bench, working hard in training camp, listens well), and his talent level is high. He needs to focus better. Defensively, his problem might be more his lateral movement than the mental part, I don't know.
I wonder what hurts him most in our coaches eyes; not rotating right defensively because his effort seems better or his ability to stop ball movement on the offensive end. Imagine if he could give this team 10 ppg. and 6 rpg. in 20 minutes a night with decent defense.
Watching the lakers game I was thinking him next to Hawes may have combated their length a bit but there was no chance of THAT happening.
I think he's incapable of learning anything related to the defensive scheme.
I disagree
I think he's capable
I think he's uninterested
With all this "ball friendly" talk, I would have to guess the latter. He's not a passer - I can't imagine him passing out of a double team - but skilled low-post players, you want them to just catch it & put it up quick. That's his style. Moses had the same style, but he was good at passing out of the double team.
I gotta think Collins wants ball movement above everything else, and Speights doesn't have that team offense mentality. I also think Collins is making him earn any minutes he gets, then when (if) he finally gets some, the offense will be there because of his skills. Speights has to learn defense before he sees court time, though.
So I guess the answer is both.
It seems Elton has improved bigtime this year passing out of a doubleteam and it has a lot to do with seeing it more than last year because he is in the post more and not facing the hoop 20 feet away.
Spieghts seems so used to facing up that back to the basket kickouts are probably foriegn to him but I am sure our coach works with him in practice.
The disappearance of Speights is this season's biggest mystery. He hasn't been effective. But his rebounding has improved and he shows greater effort on the defensive end and was even getting a few assists. I remember Collins at training camp saying how he works hard and "wants so much to please." He has talent. Why isn't he given playing time to grow into these previously ignored dimensions of his game?
Seeing him fall behind Songaila and Brackins on the rotation chart makes me think that they've given up on him.
I want to believe they've given up on him too but it befuddles me why they picked up his option for next year.
I agree that it is somewhat of a mystery as to why Collins doesn't like what he sees from Speights, although I am not befuddled by the Sixers picking up his option. Management saw potential in him this summer, and I'm sure Collins did too at the beginning, but since then has changed his mind about Speights' game. I just wish Collins would address this issue to reporters. Has anyone heard anything from him lately about Speights?
He's cheap under a rookie contract, and options are usually picked up. I don't see why anyone would question the picking up of such a cheap option. It's a low risk high reward possibility.
Whether or not Collins 'likes' him - Collins has to be disappointed from the array of soft big men sitting on the roster. Hawes really isn't much better than Speights
Agreed. He's basically forced to play a small lineup because of a lack of legit big men on the roster. In terms of production, the Brand/Thad combo at center and power forward has been successful so far, but a good team would be able to find a way to exploit this lack of size. Obviously they picked up Speights' option, which is what I was saying, but I'd really like to know why Collins doesn't play him at all. Is he really so bad that we can't go a little bigger with Speights playing 15 minutes a game?
That's how Doug is bringing him along - he makes him focus on rebounding & defense when he's in the game so he gets the idea that this is how you stay on the court. Once he gets that and plays extended minutes, the turnaround jumpers and putbacks will be there because that's the strong part of his game. Speights doesn't understand this yet.
BTW, I didn't realize that DC only averaged 8 points a game his rookie year. Wasn't following them closely then, but fans must have been nervous - kind of a Turner-type situation. (#1 pick & #2 pick)
Sunday column: Turner again playing better without Iguodala:
http://ow.ly/3x2Id
I mean, he gets more minutes and more shot attempts with him not around, so of course. Otherwise I don't see how Iguodala hampers Turner's game.
I don't like the Turner-played-better-without-Iguodala-so-the-Sixers-should-trade-Iguodala theory. If you work out the kinks between their games I still believe they can coexist. Obviously Iguodala's going to have to handle the ball a little less with Turner around but I think he could be effective. Iguodala rarely had to create offense out of nothing when Andre Miller was around. I don't see Dre's usage rate impeding anybody's progress.
I would like it to lead to more Iggy postups, especially since Hawes is out high a lot. Iggy could be a real weapon on the block against a lot of wings.
With C.Butler possibly out for a while, and Haywood not getting a lot of minutes, would you guys consider this deal; Nucioni, Spieghts and their choice of either Battie or Meeks for Haywood.
Dallas is hurting at the 2 and 3 position and is in win now mode. And this deal saves salary this year and next for the sixers with 3 years and an option remaining. I am not a big Haywood fan but he would look like Wilt defensively compared to what we are getting, but would Dallas do it?
I would include Meeks and Battie if they give us Mahinmi or Dq. Jones back.
Nope, that's not the way to take a shot. If we are keeping iguodala we need to go after a young big. Can't settle for an old guy it just won't work. I don't agree with the thought of bringing Camby in for 2 years either. Having a front court of Brand/Other old guy is a terrible idea, what happenes in 2 years when they both are over the hill? Then we are stuck in mediocrity with no hope of getting over it.
Agree. But Fab Melo is not the guy!
Haywood signed a 6-year extension this summer.
No thanks
I've been reading a lot of stuff about Turner and Iguodala. Even though some have laughed at the mentioning of Andre holding back "ET," it is a legitimate point that Turner is playing better without Iguodala in the lineup. The question is "Why is this?" I really think they should be able to fit together and Collins plays Turner a ton with Dre off the floor too).
My main goal for this season was to get a definitive look at if Jrue, Turner, and Iguodala could coexist and become a solid dominant backcourt group. I think a lot of us wanted to see what they looked like and what they could do together in the 1-2-3 spots. Now I forget about this from time to time during the 82 game season because the games become distractions from the long term in their own right. The thing is that we haven't seen a lot to make a definitive statement on the original goal of what a JTI looks like.
A big part of this is because of Turner's slow start. He really didn't give the coaches much choice but to play him very little as Collins wants to win now, though I feel he should play around 20 minutes every game at least. I guess the problem with finding out what JTI really is about happens to be "Who is Evan Turner?" His recent good play has shown flashes in a very small sample size (which also can apply to his poor first two months of his rookie year) that he can be a pretty good scorer without Iguodala. How good? That's up for debate, and is he that much better without Iguodala so that we can move Iguodala?
It really is a fascinating (more like frustrating) subject. The thing is that besides the beginning, I have enjoyed this Sixers team a lot this year. Guys like Brand, Jrue, and Thad receive high marks (of differing levels) for their play thus far. Jrue looks to me as if the player he becomes doesn't really matter who is paired up next to him in the backcourt. Yeah, he would benefit from a knockdown shooter (especially if Dre or Turner is not here), but an athletic big that can finish is first on his wishlist.
Still, it's a bad thing that I am more confused about JTI than I have ever been. We have no answers in that regard. I would want it to be a yes, but a "No, they won't work because Turner is better w/o Iguodala" or a "No, because Turner isn't a starting shooting guard" would be better. At least we'd know we didn't fill that spot. Blame whoever you want (Turner, Collins, both, Nocioni, anyone else), but in that respect, this season has been frustrating.
I feel good about the fact that in Turner's last 2 starts he played well and didn't dominate the ball. I brought up the other day that Thad has it made here with Iggy, Jrue, Evan and even Lou setting him up. I agree that a quick hitting big that can finish will also benefit from those four.
Patty Mills is doing a Lou Will. imitation on N.B.A. tv tonight with 10 pts. in eight minutes, he looks real good.
"I feel good about the fact that in Turner's last 2 starts he played well and didn't dominate the ball."
Great point, especially the Phoenix game. Now again, I'd be fine if Turner was an efficient scorer/playmaker even if he does need the ball a lot. Then Iguodala could either leave or just step back and play like he did on Team USA. Now that's IF Turner shows he can be a reliable offensive player and a guy who can handle the load. He's not close to doing either yet.
I just wish he would play well for an extended time with Iguodala, because it seems like they really can fit. Turner's gotta find that medium between dominating the ball like he did in college (and can't here) and how passive he was early in the year. The last two games, he's done a better job of it.
I think it's pretty simple, Iguodala needs to stop trying to create offense and put trust in ET to do some of the things that Iguodala has been doing out of lack of talent on the roster. ET needs to continue his aggression once Iguodala comes back.
Not sure I agree completely, respectfully though. Iguodala's usage rate is pretty darn low (even for his standards) this year. I think he's given up a good amount the playmaking duties, although you could argue that Jrue has been more the beneficiary of that than Turner. I think it was more of Turner not really being aggressive when Iguodala was playing, as you pointed out. Nothing you said that brought this thought up, but it needs to be looked at as a JTI question, as opposed to simply Turner and Iguodala.
My one concern with that thinking is if Turner is really suited to be a playmaker in the NBA. First, we have a guy in Jrue who is going to take a lot of that responsibility. As of now, Iguodala has a very good assist to TO ratio and is IMO an excellent playmaker (best part of his offensive game by far).
ET's not going to be a one-dimensional scorer, but I do think (and hope) that will be the best part of his game, along with his defense. Turner's passing/playmaking skills haven't blown me away, but it is still early.
Do you think that as/if he becomes a better scorer that his distributing/playmaking will come along? It certainly is possible.
"Iguodala's usage rate is pretty darn low (even for his standards) this year."
The thing about Usage rate that I don't believe it accurately shows is how long a player holds on to the ball. The example I use is Nocioni, he has the same Usage rate as Iguodala but he is much quicker with his decision, he shoots, drives to the rim or passes a lot quicker than Iguodala does, who also at times tries to create a shot which takes up a lot of time and kills ball movement. I haven't seen the rotation chart from the Lakers game, but in the suns game you saw ET and Nocioni have a positive +/- when on the court at the same time and i think it was due to the fact that Nocioni didn't need the ball as much and Turner had more freedom.
"Nothing you said that brought this thought up, but it needs to be looked at as a JTI question, as opposed to simply Turner and Iguodala."
The reason I don't consider it a JTI problem is I think that Jrue will fit no matter what, he played very well with both of them and has the tools whether it be to play point or play the 2 if as you said ET is really a playmaker and not an off the ball player.
"My one concern with that thinking is if Turner is really suited to be a playmaker in the NBA."
I posted something about this about a week, maybe two ago. I think that we saw in the past two games that Turner doesn't need to be the primary playmaker in order to be effective, there will always be a question though if he will be more effective as the playmaker but Jrue's has done well enough that i don't think ET will ever get a chance to take that from Jrue.
"As of now, Iguodala has a very good assist to TO ratio and is IMO an excellent playmaker (best part of his offensive game by far)."
I agree with this, but the thing is I don't know if this skill set is necessary considering both ET and Jrue can do it, and Jrue has shown he has a better overall offensiv game than Iguodala and ET has more potential on offense overall than Iguodala I don't know if we need Iguodala to try and create offense as it's taking the ball out of more talented offensive players.
"Do you think that as/if he becomes a better scorer that his distributing/playmaking will come along?"
I'm assuming you are talking about ET, if so i think it's a near no brainer that both his playmaking ability will improve with his ability to score.
All very good points. I personally would like to see Turner be effective like he was, without the ball in his hands a lot. To a point, I understand your thoughts about Iguodala holding the ball too long. He's a great playmaker, but he does take awhile with the ball. Still, his usage rate is pretty low, so he can't be monopolizing the ball that much. Of course when you combine his rate with Jrue's, it takes up possessions.
If you look at the way Iguodala takes too long with the ball, then Turner did too little with it during his struggles. It's like the opposite of being a ball stopper: When it was his turn to initiate offense and be aggressive, he wasn't and he'd throw a lazy pass to the PG who has to start it all over.
I just wish he would say, "I'm getting a at least a piece of the paint with my change of pace crossover, then I'll give it up." Turner has not completely shown that the threat of him scoring makes the other players better, which would be a big key.
"ET has more potential on offense overall than Iguodala I don't know if we need Iguodala to try and create offense as it's taking the ball out of more talented offensive players."
I agree with the potential part, but he hasn't shown that he's a better offensive player than Iguodala yet. At least scoring-wise I know he has it in him to be better than AI9, which is my primary concern. Jrue has definitely shown that he can handle the bulk of the playmaking duties. The rest of his game though? He sometimes throws passes that looks like they are telegraphed from a mile away, like the game is moving too fast. That worries me a little, but he's a rookie, so he could improve. It gets back to the original point, we have to see what Turner is to where we can make an educated guess first. Oh well.
It will be interesting if and when Turner starts drawing the best perimeter defender and whether, in that situation, Iggy will be looking to assert himself more. Our coach seems to have a knack of putting players in good situations and his players seem to be buying in.
Turner's scoring is worrisome. The rest of Turner's game is promising.
Management and ownership really worry me. The career years from Hawes and Young worry me more than anything else probably. The contributions from Brand and Thad are just impossibly better than the last couple year and both are just ruined by contract issues in my mind. Oh well, the life of a fan.
Cousins had 28, 8 and 6 tonight. Took 17 shots, used 20 possessions. Over the past 3 games, he's averaged 21.7 points, 10.7 rebounds, and 3.3 assists.
Phoenix seems to have a habit of letting rookies torch them.
the sad part is phoenix isn't capable of doing much better They have a terrible team defense
8 turnovers and 15 fouls over his last three games, as well.
Yeah, he didn't need a billion shots to get his points tonight, it was nice. Suns really blew that game though.
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