ESPN.com Chats
Kevin (Cochin, India) Just heard about Caron's injury in India... Top 3 players the Mavs should try to trade for?
Jeff Caplan Kevin, thanks for hanging with us from India...Mavs have options. They can try to swing a deal for a swingman like Andre Igoudala, who has a big price tag or as I mentioned earlier, let Marion handle the 3 with DeShawn Stevenson an go after a guy like Carl Landry from the Kings, who can put the ball in the hole and is a great blue-collar worker. Then there's a guy like Corey Maggette in Milwaukee, but I don't think the size and length of his deal merits the cost.
Aaron (WI) The Mavs HAVE to trade Butler's contract now right? Iggy? Wallace? Heck, I'd even take Maggette over Butler on the sideline...
Jeff Caplan They don't have to do it right now, but the sooner they get someone else in here the better off one would think for team chemistry. Iggy? It is an option. The 76ers would like to dump his salary and Butler would be a salary dump for them. they might even be inclined to do a deal that doesn't include Brand's awful deal. Gerald Wallace has three years, including this one at just under $30 mil. I suppose anyone in Cha could be traded, but that guy's been the heart and soul of the franchise.
Lyndon (Dallas) Do you think the mavs can acquire a big name star such as Andre Iguodala or maybe even A Carmelo Anthony?
Jeff Caplan I don't think Butler's injury helped the chances of getting Carmelo, although I have had that a very low percentage of possibilities anyway. Iggy is something we'll just have to watch. It is a possibility.
VW (NYC) Anything brewing on the Iguodala trade front?
Chad Ford Not that I'm hearing. Sixers are playing a bit better. But still think there's a good chance he's gone in February. The Mavs are going to be one of those teams in the hunt now that Caron Butler is down for the season.
Dan (DC) So Grunfeld gives an extension to Jamison and trades him that season. Gives an extension to Gilbert and trades him as soon as he can. And now gives an extension to Blatche and is looking to move him. He's lost it, right?
Chad Ford It's looking that way. But he's not alone. I think it's one of the big reasons the NBA owners are going to be fighting so hard for a new CBA. A number of GMs and owners in the league are no match for the highly skilled agents they are negotiating against. They make so many non-sensical decisions with contracts that they immediately regret. Either NBA owners starting hiring GMs with more management, negotiation and problem solving skills or they the new CBA become basically idiot proof. Stern is opting for the latter I believe.
Dan (Plano) I don't get why it is written that that the best trade that mavs can make is for Landry and Casspi?? Personaly. I think we don׳t more depth, we need a good scorer that we play well in playoff time.. Igulala??? Mayo??? Gay?? Granger?? Martin ? Jakcson??
Chuck Cooperstein Exactly what playoff experience do Granger, ?ayo, and Gay have? Any of those players cost you assets that the mavs, right now are not willing to part with. AND, they love the chemistry of their team. Not big on Casspi, but I do like Landry a lot, and do think he would bring a toughness factor that you're losing not having Caron. he also presents a low post option that would be nice for the Mavericks to have,
David (Dallas) If Philadelphia agree to trading Igoudoula straight up for Butler just so they can rid of remaining 4 years, would Igoudoula fit in Dallas?
Chuck Cooperstein But Philly won't do that, so why ask? But yes, Iguodala fits, although I don't believe he's as micyb of a Godsend as a lot of people think. Poor outside shooter, bad three point shooter, Don't think he helps space the floor the way Butler could. The defensive ability overcomes a lot of those issues
Jeff (NY) Ric, Why wouldn't an east team like Philly try to trade for Carmelo? They need a star, and even if he doesn't resign, they would have cap space, right?
Ric Bucher At one point Denver was ready to consider Iguodala for Melo. They're not at that place anymore. But for Philly it's a lousy deal if he's not re-signing. They'd have cap space and little else. As a fan do you reeeeeally want that?
tyler (harris) which coach, do you think, will be the first to "spend more time with the family"?
Ric Bucher Paul Westphal, I'm told, would already be gone if, A) they had someone on the bench who could take over and B) they hadn't guaranteed his salary for next year already. I still wonder if Collins, physically, makes it to the end of the season.
HOOPSWORLD.com Chats
a2khawaii in honolulu, hi: With Evan Turner playing better, is it almost 100% guaranteed that Iguodala will be traded and who do you see as the 2 most likely destinations for him?
Bill Ingram: That's what we assumed for the longest time - Cleveland or Toronto for the trade exceptions . . .but the Sixers are playing better and telling teams Iggy is off the market. I guess we'll see if they stick to that past the trade deadline.
Chad in T.O: Do you believe Toronto will be making any trades at the deadline? will they trade Peja ? use there trade exemption?
Bill Ingram: I'm convinced they'll use their TPE, yes, but I don't think they move Peja. They talked to the Sixers about Iggy for the TPE, but right now the Sixers are saying Iggy stays.
Kurtis in Tokyo: What would it take for Utah to get Iggy or Gerald Wallace?
Bill Ingram: Good morning, Tokyo! I don't believe the Jazz can get either one of them, frankly. The Cats would move Wallace for Carmelo, but that's about the only way he leaves Charlotte. Iggy is not on the market at the moment. The Sixers are improving daily . . .
Mark Cuban in Dallas, TX: Should I now put my trade chips on the line and talk to Charlotte about Gerald Wallace since Caron is likely done for the year? Iggy in Philly?
Bill Ingram: The Mavs don't have what the Bobcats or Sixers would want. Not sure you get Iggy anyway, and the Bobcats were unlikely to move Wallace before. . . now they'll wait and see how things go with Silas for the next few weeks before making rash decisions.
Dave Sholler in Las Vegas, NV: LUKE! Here's the question all Sixers fans are pondering...is Philly better off without Iguodala? If so, where do you move him and what do you get in return?
Luke Byrnes: Dave Sholler is in the house! Philly is definitely NOT better without Iggy. Are you serious? Philly is better off without Elton Brand's albatross of a contract. I'm pretty sure the Sixers envisioned more than 15 points and nine rebounds per game when they gave Brand $20M per... Hold on to Iggy and hope Isiah finds his way back to the NBA and takes Brand's deal off your hands.
harrison barnes in north carolina: do you think my slow start to the college season will make some team hesitant about drafting me in the top 5
Steve Kyler: Yes and No... I think Barnes' slow start combined with Evan Turner's slow start has some teams looking at him differently... but here is the trap, NBA teams are looking for talent to fit their system, and how much of Barnes' struggles were about adjusting to the college game.
I think his spot as the top guy is in real question, but how a guy does in college is rarely a reflection on how he'll play at this level - so teams are trying to detrmeine how he'll play in their system, with their coach and their players... his stuggles weigh in that but more its about "why did he struggle" versus "he struggled" A team that understands the why, can determine if its a flaw in his game or if its something they can adjust when they get him.
azeric in jackson, mi: Happy New Year Steve! I would love to see Iggy on MIL do u think if the Bucks agreed to take Brand back they could get him? He would be a great addition to that team
Steve Kyler: Highly unlikely... Philly is in a different place than they were this summer... Iggy is playing well and Doug Collins is very happy with both him and Brand. So while it might fit for Milwaukee... they don;t have the assets and Philly does not have the desire.
Jesse in Toronto: Do you think it is better to be a bad YOUNG team(Sac/TDot/NJ) or a bad ASSEMBLED team(Philly/Clips/Det?)
Steve Kyler: Never good to be a bad team... but a bad Young Team will get better as they learn to play...
Mike in Muskoka, ON: What kind of trade, position player(s) does BC need to pull off to improve this team? Iguadola? Other?
Stephen Brotherston: Mike, If you want to win now - the team needs at least 2 good veterans - Iggy would be a good place to start. But I wouldn't be giving up the future to win this season. I'm sure the Raps could get Rip & Prince out of Detroit and be better - but worse next year.
James in Newark, NJ: How about Iggy and brand for Broy, Oden, and Rudy Fernandez. Who says no?
Stephen Brotherston: James, The 76ers have been going through the nightmare of signing a big deal with an injured player and are 1/2 way out of it - I don't believe they would risk starting the process over again.
mr76 in phila. pa: where can iggy be dealt to and who?
Yannis Koutroupis: We've heard he isn't going anywhere this season.
RANKINGS
Marc Stein - ESPN.com
18th (previously 17th) Even without Iguodala, Philly can finish 4-4 on that monster eight-game trip if it can steal a win Monday night in New Orleans ... against the same Hornets who scored 23 points in the first half at Philly on Dec. 12.
BBR Rankings - Schedule Adjusted Offensive and Defensive Ratings
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8566
Sports Illustrated - Britt Robson
18th (20th previously) It is a pivotal point of the season for the Sixers, who finished 3-5 on a 17-day road trip and play five of their next six at home (where they are 8-6), with only the Bulls among those opponents sporting a winning record. They'll also be without Andre Iguodala -- who has been sidelined with Achilles tendinitis since Dec. 27 -- for a little while longer, but veteran Andres Nocioni has filled in admirably, enabling matchup nightmare Thaddeus Young and rookie Evan Turner to come in off the bench. Early-season spark plug Jodie Meeks is slumping now that teams are better prepared for his catch-and-shoot game.
CBSSports.com - Dave Del Grande
16th (previously 20th) Reason for optimism in 2011: If Evan Turner starts playing like the second pick in the draft, the 76ers won't have to worry about picking No. 2 again anytime soon
FOX Sports
22nd It hasn't been a totally smooth transition for rookie Evan Turner, but he scored 23 last week as Philly blew out Phoenix and has played well enough to allow the Sixers to keep shopping Andre Iguodala. Turner isn't the only Sixer who's been inconsistent, but the team has responded to Doug Collins, plays a fun brand of basketball and is also getting nice production from Elton Brand.
NBA.com - John Schuhmann
17th (no change) Missing Andre Iguodala, who's out at least another four games, the Sixers had to beat the Suns with offense, including Evan Turner's career-high 23 points. They almost had enough to knock off the Lakers, too. Their stretch of eight straight road games concludes Monday in New Orleans.
Hoopsworld.com - Eric Pincus
17th (16th previously) The Sixers are both a borderline playoff team and a franchise that's seven games below .500. Their best player and/or trade chip, Andre Iguodala, is having trouble staying healthy.
HOOPSHYPE.com RUMORS
That's not intended to pick on Turner, but as one scout said, it shows that sometimes guys are drafted based on little more than Internet-generated hype. "Anyone who saw (Turner) play in college had to know he wouldn't really have a position in the NBA," the scout said. "He's not a great shooter, not a very good ball-handler, and he doesn't really create anything for anyone else." Then the scout paused and offered the following jab: "There are a lot of NBA draft websites run by pimply faced kids who think they know basketball, and too many teams are basing their drafts around them. Otherwise, Turner never would've been drafted so high."FOXSportsOhio
Maybe they rekindle the talks they had with the 76ers a year ago about Andre Iguodala. They'll probably make a call to Houston to ask about Kevin Martin, although Rockets general manager Daryl Morey might hang up in a hurry. There will be plenty of other names that pop up -- some realistic, others ridiculous -- in connection with the Mavs in the weeks to come. It doesn't help that one of the Mavs' best trade chips happens to be Butler, and he's not nearly as valuable as he was a week ago. Now, he's just a $10.6 million expiring contract, not a 15-point-per-game scorer a team can plug into its starting lineup the rest of the season. ESPN.com
The Mavs have engaged in-house discussions regarding Andre Iguodala as a replacement for the injured Caron Butler, sources tell DallasBasketball.com, but are grappling with the Usual Suspects of obstacles and two more wildcards: Caron's value halved, and the coming labor dispute. Scout.com
ARTICLES
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How Mavs Might Line Up Top Five Trade Targets
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Trading Iguodala - Why it Must Happen
Six Teams Likely Looking at a happy New Year
Fanhouse - Ranking the NBA's Most Improved Player Candidates
Cherry Hill Courier Post - Here's the 5-part recipe for Sixers' Success
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"There are a lot of NBA draft websites run by pimply faced kids who think they know basketball, and too many teams are basing their drafts around them."
What does that say about NBA front offices if they're looking to mock drafts for advice on how to run their teams.
From another angle... At draft time, the commentaries that were available to read mostly had Turner as the consensus #2, and it was hard to observe any pattern among those that didn't (i.e. it was establishment vs. pimple faces). Of course it's possible that the people who knew the thinking of the smart GMs weren't part of that chatter, and preferred to keep things close to the vest. But then why shouldn't we assume that the same parties are still keeping things close to the vest, and that that this quotation is not coming from them either.
I have a feeling Eddie's Heady's is that scout.
Evanordinary! I don't know where this scout got the idea that he's not a good ball handler.
I want Doug Collins to coach the Eagles defense next year
Cousins got another double double.
This makes me sad. Super duper sad.
Why are we always stuck being the go no where team?
I can't wait to get excited about Jrue, get knocked out of the first round and then get no one to put around him.
Maybe the center version of Jrue will fall to us next year in the draft.
I read what you wrote
It is silly
It makes me super duper sad
Maybe next year, the sixers will have better fans
That quote is absurd. Every team in the league thought he was a top 3 player at worst. Presumably all those teams have scouts. It's not like he's a figment of draftexpress or Chad Ford. Not that Chad Ford hasn't had some influence on where some guys (largely Euros) have been drafted, but surely not in Turner's case.
And about Melo, I find the Nets essentially making him a co-GM kind of perturbing. He's going to tell them who to trade for? And that someone he wants is Rip Hamilton? Is this some kind of "if only I'd been drafted by the Pistons" fantasy?
That "one scout" is a damn moron. Anybody who watched Turner in college knew he was clearly the best player that year and the most complete guard in a weak draft class. He had absolutely no problem hitting shots in college and he most definitely created pretty much every single opportunity his teammates ever had to score. He ran the offense and set up guys like Lighty for great open looks from beyond the arc or easy layups.
As I've been saying since seeing him play in college for the first time in the Big Ten tourney last year, he's a guy who needed to be drafted by a Western Conference team because only in the West can you have a shooting guard running your team a la Kobe and still win. That's why he was the #2 overall pick, because he is a complete player who can carry a team with not just his scoring but his all-around game, especially as a playmaker. He will never be the player he was in college in Philly because they already have guys to run the offense and because you can't run an offense with a shooting guard in the East and win. Iguodala and LeBron are the only exceptions to that because they aren't shooting guards(even if Iguodala plays there at times), and they are defensive-minded players who run the defense as well.
That's why Turner isn't a 20 ppg scorer right now, because this isn't his team. If he got drafted somewhere where he was running the offense and was the focus of the team, he would already have ROY locked up, or at least he would if Blake Griffin hadn't gotten injured last year. Turner played so well in Pheonix because he had no hesitation or reluctance to shoot or score. His problem is he is always trying to fit into the offense instead of being the offense. He is not a complimentary player. He needs to have that same attitude of "I'm the scorer. I'm going to go out there and put the ball in the hoop as many times as I can" that he had in college and in Pheonix, otherwise he will never reach his potential in any form.
No, this is delusional. If he were capable of scoring 20 per in the right system, right now, he would have shown flashes of scoring ability in more than four games. Other than that I'm not getting the East/West distinction as to shooting guards. There aren't a ton of teams like that now for whatever reason but in the past you had Pierce, Iverson, McGrady, Allen in Milwaukee, Houston in New York, Carter in Toronto, Redd in Milwaukee, etc. Has the East become more of a big man-centric conference since?
You're funny.
No. You are delusional, and you seriously do not know basketball. You have absolutely zero clue what it's like to play with players who play stupid or are ball-hogs, something you would know if you ever even played streetball let alone league basketball. You also have absolutely zero clue how huge of a transition it is to go from being a point-forward to a guy who is played off the ball.
Do you even know why players like Turner play with the ball in their hands instead of off the ball in the first place? It's because if they don't control the offense, they don't get used right and their team loses games due to stupid players making stupid plays. I say that with first-hand knowledge.
Turner can only be played when not running the offense in one way, and that is as a scorer. He is not a guy who should ever be standing around waiting for the ball or passing to somebody else. He should be calling for it and getting it on every single play. He should never be on the floor with Lou Williams, and neither should Meeks or Jrue or Iguodala, or Thad or Speights for that matter. Turner needs to be on the floor with players who will give him the ball whenever he is open. He needs to be on the floor with anybody but Lou or Nocioni. If he doesn't feel comfortable and feel like he's being used right, he won't do well. He's a humble player, as are pretty much every player on this team minus Lou, Nocioni, and Kapono. He doesn't have the ego of a star so the only way for him to become one is to be allowed to play his game and get comfortable. That's how he became The Villain at Ohio State.
This is not the late 90s-early 2000s. Get that through your head. This league is not hip-hop anymore, and idiots like Rondo and the overhyping/giving credit to John Wall when he played like crap in college is nothing more than the exception and the influence of idiots who know nothing about basketball. It has nothing to do with big men or any other position. It has to do with defense and smart play. That started with Detroit and San Antonio and continued with Boston. In the East, there are 3 positions that you need guys who stand out at, mostly on defense. Those are the 3(LeBron, Iguodala, Pierce, etc), the 1(Jrue, Rose, realy every single point guard on a good team minus Rondo), and either the 3 or the 4(Garnett, Bosh, Stoudamire, Smith, etc). The non-shot blocking big man and the shooting guard have to fit into the team without requiring the ball in their hands or much of a role.
There are only two ways to make this model work, and this model is the only one that works in the East. Those two ways are to have the 1, 3, and offensive big man be your main offensive options and have the point guard run the offense while the shooting guard and other big man only get the ball on cuts/screens or catch and shoot plays, or to have the 3 run the offense as a point-forward and play the shooting guard off the ball as the main offensive option, and divy up the offense between the other 3 players on the floor depending on the situation/kind of players they are.
In the West, it's different. You run the offense through a scorer instead of through a guy who fits a position. There are two ways to do that, either with a swingman like Kobe, Durant, Turner, etc and have the point guard be a role-player who brings the ball up and have the 3 be a lockdown defender who doesn't require many offensive looks, or you run it through a point guard like Chris Paul who is the main scoring option and play inside-outside basketball with the big man down low and shooters at the other positions, maybe a scorer at one of them who plays off the ball.
That's how the league is. It is a league of roles, not one of superstars, no matter what any idiot on ESPN or Philly.com says. True superstars are superstars because they make the team around them better and fit into a team and fit a role, and the best teams are the ones who play the game the way I just described.
How is Rondo a selfish player?
I never said he was selfish. I said he's an idiot. He's also a delusional douchebag and so are every single one of his moronic supporters. He makes easy plays look difficult and his only "impressive" moves are moves that are only impressive when done by big men or 3/4 types. He's not a team player and he's not showy in an effective way. He misses wide open layups and plays no defense whatsoever except to try to steal the ball. He can't blow by anybody without having a pick set for him on the guy defending him.
He runs the "point" the way a shooting guard or point-forward does, except unlike either of the two he's a) not even remotely good enough to be the guy always looking to score and b) not smart enough to make the right play. He is incapable of blending into an offense the way a true point guard does, and the only time he passes is when he either can't score(which is often because he is such garbage he couldn't light up a pick up game) or is sure to get an assist. The fact that he's even in conversation with John Stockton as anything except the opposite of everything Stockton stood for as a player and an example of how not to be on John Stockton's level is an insult to one of the greatest point guards in history.
This and your reply to Tray is probably the best stuff I have read on Turner so far... It makes sense and provides a different explanation for his low production (as opposed to the he's just plain crap or iggy is holding him back)
Happy to help. There's a lot more I could go into detail about as far as Turner, Iguodala, and the problems with this team in general but for now I'll just leave that for another comment.