It was certainly a great day at the Garden. The Knicks had absolutely no answer for the Sixers, on either end of the floor. The only time in the second half the Knicks even came close to competing was when their "superstars" were glued to the bench. A trend that can't be considered coincidence in NYC anymore. Game four of the Evan Turner Experience was another roaring success. Great road win. (
Here's your rotation chart. Note the "closing time" run in the second which swung the game in the Sixers' favor. The unit at the end of the third (when Lou absolutely went off) that put the game away, and the unit that let the Knicks back into the game prior to the half:
Two thoughts dominated my mind on the way home from this game (1) Having Turner in the starting lineup
playing like this changes everything about this team, their ceiling and their limitations. (2) The New York Knicks are completely screwed and damned near hopeless.
Let's start with the Knicks. It's abundantly clear to anyone who has watched even a little bit of their play over the past 20 or so games that they are a much, much more dangerous team when Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire are planted firmly on the bench. Jeremy Lin is a very good player. He's a playmaker with excellent vision, a knack for drawing contact in the lane and a decent jumper. He makes mistakes with the ball, to be sure, but he also connects on a number of "home run" plays and makes the guys around him much better. When Lin has the ball in his hands, in D'Antoni's system, the guys he plays with don't need to be offensive dynamos, they just need to be able to hit open jumpers and finish on spoon-fed opportunities on the inside. So if you take Lin and surround him with a bunch of guys who can hit shots and defend, you've got a good recipe. Sounds good, right? It should be. The problem is the Knicks have $200M tied into two guys who simply are not capable of playing roles within that type of scheme.
Carmelo Anthony is completely wrapped up in his offensive game to the point where he may as well be playing five-on-one. He gets the ball, dribbles 10 times and then takes the same shot everyone knew he was going to take as soon as he caught the ball. He's got enough talent to hit more of those bad shots than he's going to miss, but with Melo on the floor, the guys around him get worse, not better, unless teams do something foolish like overplaying Melo early instead of waiting and doubling him late once in a while. To make matters worse, Melo could care less about the defensive end. Amare used to be the type of guy who could play off a good PG, now he simply doesn't have the athleticism to finish on the inside anymore. So you've got an average finisher who won't do a lick of the dirty work on either end of the floor.
Here's the rub. The Knicks have $200M tied up in fringe-star guys who kill the only thing the team excels at. If D'Antoni's goal was to win as many games as possible, he'd use Melo as instant offense off the bench. A role like Lou Williams', and he'd only use Amare as a backup at the five to play against other team's backup centers. Neither guy would play more than 20 minutes/game, unless they were insanely hot, and he'd make this team about Lin orchestrating the seven-seconds-or-less offense, with a shooter and three defenders on the floor with him at all times. But Mike D'Antoni can't and won't do that. Maybe the Knicks can find some kind of deal out there to get a decent package for Melo (I don't think anyone other than Otis Smith would be interested in Amare's un-insured contract), but I seriously doubt they'd turn around and trade Melo at this point. It's hopeless in NYC, and they're probably not going to make the playoffs unless something changes. An injury to Melo and/or Stoudemire would probably be their best chance to cling to their #8 seed.
As for the Sixers, well, I've got something in the works for Monday afternoon to expand upon my thought above, so I'll keep you in suspense. Suffice it to say, Turner got the player of the game, but it could've just as easily gone to Lou or Iguodala, and when you have three guys playing monster games, well, you're going to beat the Knicks handily, and that's just what they did. 38 points in the third quarter...unbelievable.
Player of The Game: Turner. 9/14 from the floor, 6/7 from the line,
15 boards (14 defensive), 2 assists, 1 steal and 24 points. The only blemish on his line was the 5 turnovers, but I'll forgive those unless they become a trend. If the rest of his game stays the same, I may forgive them anyway. Lou was uber-efficient today, 28 points on 19 shots. Iguodala was Iguodala. On the other end of the spectrum, Jrue couldn't throw the ball in the ocean (there's a slight silver lining, see below) and Meeks barely got in the game (7 minutes). An interesting side note, I'm pretty sure only one play was called for a three in the entire game. Out of a timeout, Collins ran a play to spring Jrue for a good look at a three, which he missed badly. Otherwise, all the threes came off the dribble, or off penetration and a kick. I'm sorry I missed the chance to say AI944! in the game thread. By the way, I think if there's even a question about POTG and Turner keeps up this string of brilliant play, he's getting it. Tonight, it was the rebounds that put him over the top, besides the trend.
Team Record: 25-17
Up Next: The #5 seed Indiana Pacers, on Wednesday. If the season ended today, the Sixers would have home court over the Pacers in the first round of the playoffs.
Jrue's Goal: Probably the only thing Jrue did right on the offensive end today, 7 FTA to only 2 turnovers.
One final note: No PT for Lavoy at all in this one, which is odd. And Collins went basically with a seven-man rotation. Odd.
Turner's handle has to tighten up a little if he is going to work the lane a lot, and he needs to stray away from those sideline double-teams, but he should get better with those over time. In the meantime, his truly INCREDIBLE skill at rebounding the basketball (who says the guy isn't athletic?) and his instinctual feel on the offensive end are the most exciting things to watch on this team since the other AI was on this team.
Lou was magnificent - and looking like he is fully buying in to what is going on right now (right now he is, anyway), Thad is Thad...and Andre is becoming the guy that we all thought he would/could be...one he had a truly TALENTED roster of guys to play with. I love his phrase..."stress-free"...as opposed to having to make sure that Meeks gets shots or worrying about how the ball reverses from the high post, when he is out there with Jrue and (especially) ET, things just flow naturally. Watching the past few games, the whole "can JTI actually play together" line of thinking now seems utterly absurd. There will certainly be nights when an uber-quick backcourt will give them trouble...but the nice thing is now we can turn the tables, find mismatches WE can exploit on offense, and offset that.
Hope you had a BLAST today, bro.
i was glad jrue got to the line for you brian
Collins said he used the 7man rotation because of the time off before Indy...approached this as an important game and was gonna play his best guys heavy minutes to win it
The most remarkable thing-well, okay, a remarkable thing-about the Evan Turner Miracle is how dramatically better he has seemed to make his teammates. The team's offense looks completely different, and in an entirely good way. And defense has been bolstered as well!We already had one of if not the best defensive teams in the East. If the offensive production of the last three games isn't a total mirage, then all of a sudden you have the "best of the rest" in the East...ie the third best team, poised to win a series with homecourt advantage and give Chicago or Miami a long series.
Yes...opponents will adjust, it won't all be hunky dory, but for now there is nothing to do but believe if you're a Sixer fan
didn't even mention the nebounding...a freakishly good defensive rebounder has been added to the lineup after an inability to control the defensive glass was the key factor in a succession of wrenching losses, most notably vs OKC, a game during which i had a near nervous breakdown from my seat in the 200 level down the stretch
I know the box score has Turner with 1 steal, but he definitely had 2. Both in the first half, and they both led to an Iguodala dunk.
Great win today, almost as great as the mini Boston Massacre last week.
There's seriously nothing I enjoy more than big wins over the Celts and Knicks. Hate those teams w/ a passion. It was great to see the fans turn on Melo today, too. Screaming, "Melo, you're over-rated!" when he fouled Iguodala on the four-point play. JR Smith got a ton of boos as well. Welcome to NY!
Not to completely drink the koolaid too but how long has this team been looking for a guy who can knock down 20 points and grab 10 boards next to AI9...and Turner just might turn out to be that guy?? If he keeps that level of play up through the end of the week and those HUGE games vs Miami and CHI, do we start to see Lin-style national hype around him...just in time for the trade deadline?
and if they can start getting quality minutes out of 00, who knows where this team goes, but having ET in Rodman Mode sure makes it MUCH less urgent to get him back asap (especially when there is another Hawes contract year coming up soon)...amazing how non-depressed everybody here is after just three games, we're starting to act like a bunch of Flyers fans!
Well, if you want someone to rain on your parade, TK will remind you of their record in close games. Personally, I could live w/ 4 blowout wins in the first round, then figure it out against CHI or MIA in round two.
I did not realize they went with Thad at C for some key minutes.
yeah, they went ultra-small. Some really weird matchups, too. Thad spent a decent amount of time guarding Shumpert and JR Smith (Iguodala was on Melo, who was technically the four). D'Antoni was grasping at straws.
I also noticed that line up, with Thad at C and FOUR ball handlers. Clearly Young as center is unsustainable in any "normal" game, while I think that Jrue, LW, Ig and ET together at the same time is a solution that we will see again, that makes sense in certain situations, and that I already like. There aren't many teams that can afford that in the NBA.
Only negative from last night's game IMO was the poor managing of the +21 lead in the fourth, we scored like 6 pts in nearly nine minutes, ball movement and shot selection was quite bad, another opponent could have made a serious run.
Brian, I tried to imagine your reaction after Iguodala hit that three while being fouled, by Melo, maybe you came close to changing the name of the blog...
I think Turner is doing exactly what the 6ers (and all of us) had hoped he'd do. Coming off the bench he put in mad work and now, starting, he is absolutely crushing brothers. I think Doug knew the gem he had in Turner all along, but wanted to nurture and develop him as a player.
As for ETs ball handling... I'll admit it can get a little sloppy, but it's far from a worry.
Props again to the Sixers.... when the Knicks beat us last time I was seething. I've had this game on my calendar for weeks!!!
Oh I get it, Collins is a genius for forcing him to play off the ball, and cutting his minutes to 16 mph, that's utter bull shit!
Random thought because of the suggestion, that Jrue should take a foul-taking class of Lou.
It just came clear to me, that Lou is so good at drawing fouls because he's never driving for lay-ups but for floaters or very close jump shots. So it is nearly impossible to block him if you're not standing right in front of him (or the direction he's fading to) and are much bigger.
Now the thing with Jrue is, that he's taller and not build compactly like Lou (although he looks way more compact since coming to the league (he's 21 of course)). Jrue most of the time goes for layups high off the class. I think Jrue should develop the one-handed floater. Because he gets around his defender and right in the middle of the lane. It's the laying-off-the-glass part he's struggled most of the time, because there he's met by a shot blocker.
... and Jrue jumps high before he releases which gives his opponent time to adjust.
Number one scoring option; Check
Double digit rebounder; check
Power forward ? Oops
Who knew we drafted C.Barkley at #2. Who is the better rebounder when all is said and done, Evan or Favors?
In the post game presser, Collins said essentially that his goal was to get the win yesterday because of the tighter schedule coming up, and he tightened his rotation to ensure it. He said he wasn't worried about minutes since the team has two days off.
The sixers have gone from 8th to 5th in rebounding as a team in about a week.
Only in defensive rebounding. They are one of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league...
It is also the result of offensive system that aims to let the paint free for cutters and drivers.
Eh. Those same lanes are open for offensive rebounds. The bad o-boarding is more a result of an obsession with floor balance and getting back on defense. If you have a really good big, he'll grab more o-boards for you in this system. But the smalls really can't, and shouldn't be crashing for o-boards. Jrue went after one yesterday, and it resulted in a Melo three in transition (I believe).
i wrote "it's also a result..." not only a result. O.K., it's also a result of big man lack, i agree.
pic captions: "Thad Driving Knicks Nuts", or "Caution: Serious Stuff Ahead", or "Young Visits Helium Heights", or "Vamoosing Vet's Vitality: Verdant View Of Valorous, Victorious Vigor"
Even though the line on Meeks seems bad, he played lock-down defense on Novak in that 7 minutes - and from where I was sitting that is ALL the Knick fans wanted at the point in the game. Also, he never took a shot, so he didn't take any bad shots. He just came in and subtly made his mark.
Jrue, on the other hand, was a mess.
you were at the game? what were Knicks fans chanting at the end, something vs D'Antoni? I didn't get thet well
I watched the game listening to Knicks announcers and they were being pretty hard on the team, especially Melo and JR Smith, they were saying the boos were deserved or something like that, kind of unusual for team announcers
I'm fairly certain Clyde hates Melo. Has since they traded for him. He's actually a big Iguodala fan.
yes, I also had the same impression. Frazier also praised Turner and Williams a lot, it seems like Sixers are closer to his idea of "team", he said we kept the crowd out of the game.
Frazier said also that D'Antoni was correctly keeping the superstars on the bench in the 4th because reserves were giving a good effort and got NY back into the game (kind of...). Did you listen to him during the game or Zumoff/Rose?
Yesterday's case closed on Smith's blown layup with 6:25 left. Deflation instead of inspiration; led to 16 differential instead of pressure & noise-adding 12.
I'm as encouraged by Turner's play as everyone else, but it is worth mentioning that the four players he's had to guard in his four starts included three jump-shooters who missed a bunch of open jumpers (Delfino, Ray Allen on a back-to-back, Raja Bell) and a limited player (Fields, who actually scored more than you'd normally want him to). If Turner's man is hitting 3's or can penetrate to create his own shot, Turner won't be able to "cheat" for defensive rebounds as easily.
So, it will be a good measuring stick to see how Turner fares against Paul George (40% 3-point shooter) and Wade (who will occupy him in every way). I tend to think there are parts of Turner's game that will translate against anyone, but I'm waiting to see what happens to him (and the team) when he encounters adversity at the beginning of a game.
He was on Rondo in the Celtics game, so worse shooter, but much better rebounder than Ray Allen. I'm more interested to see how he does against Paul George's length than if his rebounding will hold up and/or he'll get hurt by leaving his man early to go for boards.
Yes, you are right about Rondo, so he was able to cheat even more easily for boards in that game.
Both George and Wade have enough length to trouble Turner so that Turner won't be able to get the shots he wants so easily. So in that case, will Turner be able to set up others?
But I mention the point about leaving his man to crash the boards because there have been several times this year when Turner's man hit a key 3-pointer because Turner was cheating for a rebound. The most recent example was Deng in the 4th quarter of the Bulls game. When that happens, the whole team gets demoralized and everybody looks around at each other.
I'm hopeful that Turner will be smart enough to recognize when it's more important for him to defend well than rebound (and vice versa).
Agree 100%. Turner does like to cheat off his man to hit the boards, which is why it seems like he is a MUCH better on-the-ball defender than a help defender...although he did do a nice job there against the Celtics during that great defensive sequence in the 4th quarter on Wednesday.
This is probably what Iguodala means when he is talking about Turner needing to learn personnel out on the floor and time of game situations...there is a time to cheat for a board and a time to stay home.
I can't even hate on Lin, since he and Chandler are the only ones on that team that play decent basketball. Is JR Smith a good post defender? They had him defend Thad yesterday and I thought he did an ok job. Two weeks ago they put him on Dirk.
The Sixers FTR in the last 2 games:
34.6 vs the Jazz
32.9 vs the Knicks
These 2 games mark only the 8th and 9th game of the season where the Sixers have had a FTR higher than 30. They are 6-3 in those games (in one of them their opponent actually had a higher FTR, and one of the other 2 they lost at the buzzer with a miraculous shot- LAC game). League average is at 28.2 btw.
Lets hope this newfound ability to get to the line can continue, because i firmly believe that at the end of the day that simple stat is what is going to make or break the Sixers this season.
Crazy stats from the advanced box score of yesterday's game.
Jrue was 0/8 inside of 9 feet, 2/3 on long twos.
Turner and AI9 both had more attempts at the rim than on long twos.
Lou hit 2/8 inside 9 feet, 8/11 on long twos and threes.
So what is sustainable for Turner? I want so badly to believe that he is a 20-10 guy. It's just incredible how his game has added this other dimension that we were missing. We're so much more explosive. And the best part is that there is no stagnation. It's not like we added Monta Ellis and now we have our 20 point per night scorer. Turner keeps his head up and the other guys know it.
So assuming eVansanity continues, what do we do in the off-season? Are we really only one piece away?
Who, other than Brand becomes expendable? I think you need Jrue for his work on D. If you amnesty Brand to free up the cap space, who would you need to add? Assuming D12 still wants no part of us.
Still need a C. If you get the right kind, you can probably start Thad at the four, if you get the wrong kind, you're going to need a starting PF as well.
true about the C but in the meantime I can't wait to have Hawes back fully healthy, a lineup with Jrue, ET, Ig and Hawes is an elite NBA team as for passing ability, half court offense will hopefully improve a lot and it will be a really fun team to watch
Bogut? Magee?
Bogut would be awesome...but we would have to give up value to get him.
Or do we just have to take Stephen Jackson? Hawes and the BOSS for Bogut and Jackson? I guess those numbers don't work.
What about Bogut's injuries? How do we make something like this work?
Bogut
Thad
JTI
look out
One thing I noticed in the game was that Lin and Melo were playing a two man game in the 1st quarter against Holiday and Iguodala. They would set picks so that the defense would switch and Melo would be guarded by Jrue. I thought it was pretty effective before Collins decided to put ET on Lin.
Really? I didn't notice any of that. Can't recall a single possession where Jrue was on Melo, or really Turner spending much time guarding Lin. Could've missed it, though.
Midway through the first quarter, they ran a few plays at the corner 3 area with Lin and Melo. They only ran it a few times and mostly shot open jumpers from it. Melo did get one layup from it. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't have video to rewatch it.
ET's rebounding is not exactly the same as having a big who controls the boards. On one hand, Turner's rebounds are potentially more impactful because they can become a fast break and they are coing from a position that does not usually get boards.
But on the flip side, Turner is not a guy who will keep a monster big from getting O-Boards. Guys like Love, Cousins and Dwight will still be able to beat of the Sixers frontcourt. In fact, Utah still got a fair share of put backs off of O-boards.
At best, you hope that Tunrer's ability to rebound would free up the Sixers bigs to focus 100% on boxing out- even at the expense of their own rebounds. Which is actually a decent strategy when playing against a dominant offensive rebounder.
Tri-aces for a day - Turner, Williams, Iguodala. Each asserted, led by actions.
Thicker, slower, stiffer - that's Amare Stoudemire. What a difference a year makes.
Sixers anticipate like Paul Krause, snag skip or bottom-up passes like a Venus flytrap. Especially adept at interceptions are Iguodala and Holiday.
Turner, a revolutionary hero? For the time being. Had step-slow Landry on him yesterday. Hardly the stiffest test he'll meet.
The Spirit of '76 lives again thanks in large part to craggy Colonel Collins who referendums referees red, eschews white flags and maniacally aims to make enemies blue, even at the cost of MoSpeezy.
lol, stiff landry fields? if I remember so clearly last year this board was filled with comments everytime the knicks played the sixers with people crying about how the knicks had the better draft getting landry fields and comparing stats everytime fields plaed.
Read again for comprehension. I wrote Fields is slow afoot, not the toughest defender he'll face. Do you disagree?
Whoa, if my eyes aren't deceiving me, this was mildly complimentary of three players that have invited heavy criticism from you in the past. Too many more of these positive posts, and I will no longer be able to call you a curmudgeon :-)
In all fairness to Sixer critics, the Knicks yesterday played to their strengths on both ends of the floor and made the Sixers look as good as they possibly can. Lin makes those turnovers against everyone, but the Sixers take advantage of turnovers better than almost anyone else.
Though I toss around compliments like manhole covers (elsewise they're cheapened), good play is good play, you see - and every dog has its day, be they players or observing jotters. But now that you've mentioned it, it occurs to me that I have been experiencing mild tremors since typing the approbative remarks. I must return at once to "system restore." Thanks for the nudge! Regards, 'Curmudge'
I'm elated that Turner is doing so well, but he will never average 10+ boards a game. He may get close at say, 8 or 8.5, but I think Gerald Wallace will be king of the 6'7" double digit rebound team.
Gerald Wallace is tough. Like his game.
Hey Brian have u ever thought about making a depressedfan app for android?
I've thought about it, but I just don't have the time. Especially not right now. It's all I can handle to get three posts/game.
I understand but man if u ever do get time please make that happen I know its probably a lot of work to do but this site deserve to go android.
It does work well on most browsers like dolphin.
The issue I have with this site on android(I also use the Dolphin Browser) is the difficulty in getting the expand button to work, its so small on my tablet(10" ASUS) that its really hard to click on it.
Apparently, the Magic are trying to get Monta and keep Howard. link.
Why would New Orleans do this? Why would they take back a bad contract for Kaman's expiring?
They wouldn't.
Where can I find correct info on the Sixers salaries? I've been using HoopsHype to check them out but I'm guessing they are a little bit off because they don't have next year as a player option for Lou. The link you provided in the resources section hasn't been updated for awhile.
I must have changed my mind about 100 times already this year on whether or not to try to keep Lou if he opts out(which I'm guessing he will since his value is at an all-time high). Right now I'm back to thinking we need to keep him. With Meeks phased out now, Lou isn't getting in the way of Jrue/ETs minutes/development and his ability to get to the line is so huge for this team.
What do you guys think? Could we get a fair contract for Lou? What is the market going to be like for him? Crawford didn't seem to get much interest and settled for 1yr/5m. Lou is much younger but they are similar players. If Lou wants Terry/Gordon money I say no way. 4yr/30m seems fair to me.
storytellerscontracts.com
click on the tab that says player salaries.
Thanks.
So the Sixers have qualifying offers for both Meeks and Allen then? I thought they were both unrestricted free agents after this year? Hopefully we can bring them both back cheap.
I have a feeling we won't be seeing much of Allen once Hawes is back. If he's healthy the rest of the way.
That should make it even easier to bring him back then. I like him as that 5th big who can step up when needed.
anyone read the SI article about UCLA from couple weeks ago? pretty interesting/crazy stuff about Howland letting the team dissolve to pieces. they portrayed Holiday as one of the few guys who had his head on straight & wasn't out partying every night, and it seems like part of his decision to leave early was probably because he could see the situation only getting worse.
Jrue's a good kid and he had his family local, which I'm sure helped. Will check out the article. Wonder if the Bruins blog that absolutely crucified Jrue for leaving early will issue an apology :)
The article was pretty damning to Howland and the guys in the program - IMO, there is no doubt as to why Holiday left after a year.
No, there will not be an apology. There will probably be a series of post questioning why SI hates UCLA and how there has always been a media bias against them since the Wooden era.
yea it was pretty shocking how blatant they were in blaming Howland. everything was based off comments from former players though, so it has to be at least somewhat credible
The program is a mess and seemingly every player that has passed through there in recent years is dissatisfied - there's gotta be some fire spitting out all that smoke.
The 3 turds that left UNC couldn't get there fast enough...
The Knicks play the Bulls tonight and the Bucks play the Nets. If everything goes according to plan, the Knicks could lose 8th place :)
I hope they get the 6th overall pick in the lottery.
"Rockets receive the Knicks' 2012 first-round pick (top 5 protected in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015, if not conveyed by 2015 then the Rockets will receive the Knicks 2015 and 2016 second-round picks) (Tracy McGrady trade 02-18-10)"
http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/03/12/who-is-the-knicks-next-jeremy-lin/ nice bashing on Knicks )
Man...other than Gibson, the Bulls bench is ass.
Can't believe they can't pull away from the Knicks.
Still 12 minutes to go.
Your 18-24 New York Knickerbockers! 9th-place for the team that was clearly better than the Sixers.
their super deep bench helped out with 18 points, including J.R. Smith going scoreless with two turnovers in nine minutes.
Did you know that the only reason why they lost to the sixers is because they've just been playing soft as of late and didn't have the heart to stop the sixers' lead in the third? I know this is true because the analysts said so.
It's so much fun watching Melo dig the Knicks' grave.
At least he was able to match his shot total with his point total today. There is improvement.
Can anyone recommend a site that could serve as a sort of introduction to advanced basketball metrics? I don't know much about them but I'm trying to learn more, specifically what stats are the most important, how they are calculated, and what the league averages are.
I'd recommend a book: Basketball On Paper.
Thanks.
Is it a good read for a stats/basketball nerd like myself or is it more textbook style?
It's good. Pretty straight forward description of a different way to watch games, and value production.
Thanks Brian, might give it a read.
Really enjoying this 4th quarter prevent offense by the Celtics...yet again...
Man...other than Gibson, the Bulls bench is ass.
Can't believe they can't pull away from the Knicks.
Don't know how that got reposted. Sorry.
We should not sleep on the Celtics. Hopefully they lose at least 2-3 more on this trip, but the Sixers need to WIN the division...as opposed to assuming that Knicks and Celtics are going to give it to us.
Don't know how that got reposted. Sorry.
We should not sleep on the Celtics. Hopefully they lose at least 2-3 more on this trip, but the Sixers need to WIN the division...as opposed to assuming that Knicks and Celtics are going to give it to us.