Indiana is pretty much on the same level as the Sixers. Jrue + Turner + Iguodala is roughly equal to Granger, Hibbert and Collison in terms of the foundation of a team. Neither team has much beyond that. Indy has more veteran scrubs while the Sixers have a bunch of players with some sort of potential (who are mostly scrubs). This was pretty much a game of equals. It didn't look like it on the floor in the second half.
Let me open with a simple stat from the rotation chart:
- With Spencer Hawes on the bench tonight, Indiana scored 62 points in 35 minutes, or 1.77 points-per-minute.
- With Spencer on the floor, Indiana scored 37 points in 13 minutes, or 2.85 points-per-minute.
This team is so far better off playing small 100% of the time it's ridiculous. In fact, with Hawes on the bench they're actually playing big, because he is utterly useless as a big man in this league, on both ends of the floor.
Glad I got that off my chest. Here are your charts for the game:
Terrible game on the glass, that pretty much tells the story. Forget Roy Hibbert - who has a chance to be pretty good - the Sixers bigs were outclassed by Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansbrough. Two guys destined to be journeyman bigs.
Was this a case of the Sixers settling into the team they're destined to be? Meaning, they didn't have the extra juice of a home-opener, against the Heat, or a home matchup against a playoff team. Instead it was just another game against a lowly team. No added motivation? Or was this a case of a short turnaround time after a tough loss the night before? If you're an optimist, you'll look at the quick start and the slow fade as legs possibly got heavier. If you're a pessimist, you're asking yourself if the team will be able to put forth the effort we saw in the first two games over the next 79. The answer is unclear at this point, but it will become apparent in the next 10 or so games, I'm afraid.
There are really only three performances worth mentioning, in a good way (sort of): Lou Williams was unconscious in the first half, and he was really the only reason the game was tied at the half. He scored 18 points on 6 shots before the break and made it look way too easy. After the break, he was pretty miserable.
Thad Young had his best game of the young season, 7 boards, 2 steals, 2 blocks and 11 points on decent shooting. He and Turner were the only guys who gave effective effort every minute they were on the floor, though Turner didn't hit a single shot that wasn't a dunk or a layup. And finally, Elton Brand. The guy was obviously dragging ass a little bit in the second half, but he played heavy minutes and contributed across the board (12 points, 10 boards, 2 assists, 4 steals, 4 blocks, 0 turnovers). Brand would've been the runaway winner of player of the game if not for his horrific shooting (5/16). He cost Jrue and Iguodala a handful of assists by missing wide open shots less than 10 feet from the hoop. It looked to me like he just didn't have his legs under him. No arc on the shots, a lot of front rim.
If you're looking for a positive takeaway, Jrue only has 2 turnovers in his last 62 minutes. He hasn't been playing well, but at least he's taking care of the ball, and Evan Turner is an unbelievable rebounder. Seriously, take a look at how he gets his boards, and who he takes them away from. The comedic highlight of the night was a play where Speights half-assed his way after a rebound only to have it snatched out of the air before he could grab it by Turner. Speights looked seriously pissed Turner got the board instead of him. If he isn't dumb as a rock, the lesson was to go after rebounds like your job depends on it. I'm doubtful he got that message, though.
A tough loss, to be sure, but chalk it up to the second night of a back-to-back if you want to enjoy your Halloween.
I'll have the key indicators later today/tonight. Happy Halloween, everyone.
Player of The Game: Thaddeus Young
Team Record: 0-3
Game Capsule
Sixers are -35 in the 49 minutes Elton Brand and Spencer Hawes have been on the court together. They're +9 during the remaining 94+ minutes.
Holiday, Iguodala, Kapono, Brand, Hawes startling lineup -12 in 15 minutes this season. Holiday, Iggy, Nocioni, Brand, Hawes -14 in 14 mins
Speights is an absolute dog.
Neither he nor Hawes should play in any game that is still in doubt. Start Brand at the 5 and let Nocioni and Young battle it out at the 4.
Hell, I'd rather see Songalia out there than either Speights or Hawes.
Exactly! If both McRoberts & Hansborough are "dogs" & "journeymen"...what the hell are Speights & Hawes? I mean who here wouldn't rather have either of them on this team as opposed to 2 guys whose play would have to improve considerably for either to be even considered "journeymen" in this league? Granted they may not be future stars but at least they know how to play defense in this league!
If I remember correctly Lou turned the ball over twice in a row in the 2nd half (threw it away both times), but what was the reason that he didn't play at all in the 4th? Was Doug in evaluation mode by keeping Turner out there and JTI?
I mean, Lou carred us in the 1st half pretty much but only played near 9 min in the 2nd half. Just trying to figure out what Evan or Jrue were doing that was so good (or what Lou did that was so bad) in order for him not to see the court in the 4th quarter.
He was clearly pressing, getting into some bad habits. I don't blame DC for taking him out there. While I applaud the newfound effort by Lou to defend, he's still a liability out there if he's not scoring (as was the case in the 2nd half)
Lou actually had 4 turnovers in the 3rd quarter. He was 0/1 from the floor, 0/1 from the line w/ 4 turnovers in 7:39. I don't think you'd have a problem with Jrue getting a hook after a stretch like that.
And I didn't have a problem with Lou getting the hook. I'm just asking what were Jrue or Evan doing so great that Lou didn't even see the floor in the 4th?
Playing defense?
I'm hoping Hawes/Speights are still banged up. But it is probably not worth hoping.
Speights is 10X worse as a player then when he entered the league.
Do you play them both just to try and raise their value? Collins doesn't seem like a coach that would do that. If Z.Randolph is out long for Memphis, do they bite on a Spieghts/Hawes for Thabeet trade? Their value may decrease as the year goes on.
WHen they play they're terrible, how does that improve their trade value?
Lou Williams however seems to be improving his trade value hopefully, so that's a a plus
Yeah, neither look like NBA players out there. They have little in the way of trade value beyond expiring contracts.
I seriously question how much Speights or Hawes want to become good basketball players. Both have been called out in the past for their lake of work off the court... and you can tell how even minor injuries makes them useless.
I seriously question how much Speights or Hawes want to become good basketball players.
Oh, I don't question it any more, I think the answer is quite clear
If your Collins, do you dnp. Spieghts for a week and see if he has a pulse? If Brackins gives effort in practice give him a chance.
I'm not really sure what the heck you mean by that, "DNP to see if he has a pulse". Collins knows what he has from Speights from practice and games. I'm sure he's not watching his (Speights) lack of effort and not saying anything about it.
Speights is what he is, he has talent but no interest. It's a common failing in lots of talented NBA players who never achieve what they could have. It's also the most 'missed' problem in drafting by some teams in my opinion.
I meant "put him in a suit". It seems the draft experts who had questions may have been right.Our three youngins [Lou, Spieghts, Thad} seem to alternate in frustrating us each year but Thad and Lou may have found their roles at least.
I understand you meant put him in a suit, I just wonder why you (or anyone) ever thinks that's going to magically adjust a guy who for 2 plus seasons has shown very little work ethic.
At this point the only thing that is going to make Speights 'work' is Speights, and that's on him. I'm sure he's been 'told' (loudly) in practice again and again what it takes.
So what's the explanation from the team for picking up his option? They should just go ahead and cut bait.
The explanation is that they are one of the worst run organizations in professional sports.
Raiders
Redskins
Mets
Pirates
Royals
Are we talking top 10? top 20? There's a LOT of crappy run sports franchises
Perfect answer.
Nonsense, picking up options is a no-brainer, they are inexpensive in relation to the rest of the players.
Please point out all those smart teams letting go of first round picks (even late first round picks) before the end of their rookie deals.
I agree with you 100% that Lou is becoming a very viable trade asset, probably the biggest asset outside of Iggy right now. I'd gladly trade a sixth man to try and get a young big guy with a pulse
Well I don't know what you'd get for him. Gotta find a team that needs a sixth man that's a 'point guard' but doesn't really initiate anyone elses offense than his own. Iguodala's market is bigger than Williams, but maybe you can package them together to get an overall better package?
I'd be curious to see what the market for DeAndre Jordan looks like. Haven't watched a ton of Clippers basketball recently but I do know that his name isn't Spencer Hawes.
They have a game today at 3:30 eastern time against dallas, give it a look. I think Jordan's value might be up now, but would the clippers want Williams?
Again, you'll also run up against the 'don't trade small for big' thing that permeates the NBA. It seems that no matter who the big is, exchanging height always is frowned upon (so maybe the sixers can find an old gm who thiks height is better and get them to take either of spawes?)
Yeah I don't know if they'd want Lou is the problem. Gordon is already pretty smallish at the guard spot. Baron Davis is already giving you what Lou would, just a "point guard" in name only. They also drafted Bledsoe if I'm not mistaken.
Although, knowing what I know about their owner, the Clippers would probably give Jordan away if it meant they could save money in some way. Maybe you have to take on a bit of a clunker contract for 2 years or something to get Jordan. I'd consider it.
Houston just signed Dampier; they seem in a win now mode with Yao, B.Miller and Dampier at the 5 and have 2 guys [Scola and Martin] supplying a lot of points; Iggy would seem a perfect compliment allowing Battier to come off their bench.
Yoa, Miller,Dampier
Scola,Patterson
Iggy, Battier
Martin, C.Lee
Brooks,Lowry
Could Iggy get us Hayes, Hill, Budinger and Jefferies [expiring?]
I think it most certainly could. I just think you can get a better haul for Iguodala than that.
Dear Brian,
This comment-stacking thing is kind of a problem.
It's fine up until about the 15th level. Just continue the thread w/out replying.
Should be good to about 30 now.
"Jrue + Turner + Iguodala is roughly equal to Granger, Hibbert and Collison in terms of the foundation of a team."
Well, kind of, except Collison and Hibbert are already there (or if not already all the way there, already somewhere) while Jrue and Turner are still these raw kids that you just happen to think will be really great one day. I mean I don't know what Jrue's biggest professional accomplishment is thus far, his stellar summer league or last April, when he lit up the league to the tune of 10 points and 7 assists. I guess I would bet on our core over theirs, but right now they do have more talent.
I asked a question on here the other week of would you trade Jrue and Evan straight up for Collison and Hibbert just for the sake of team building. I think most replied no. I never answered my own question, which would have been yes, I would trade both of them in a heartbeat for a post presence and a semblance of a floor general.
I was a big Collison fan before his draft, thought he was much better than Flynn, but I would rank Turner and Jrue ahead of him in my pecking order of p.g.'s; just not sure if Collison starts on a championship level team.
Hibbard has to show me he is more than a 1/2 of a center tandem; love his passing and low post game but our style, according to E.S. made him the worst possible fit here. Maybe its time for a change in style with a slow the pace guy like Collins here.
So is this to imply that you think ET or Jrue would somehow start on a championship level team?
Curious that you say you would rank ET ahead of Collison as your p.g., yet management drafted his as our supposed shooting guard.
The problem with your proposed trade is that
A. The pacers would never do it
B. Your including a 7 footer for 2 back court guys.
It's a PG/Bigman league, your deal gives the sixers both of those.
I think Collison is close to a finished product, Jrue is far from one; don't know if either could start on high level team, betting on potential. Turner, to me, is going to be a better player than both, regardless of position.
Oh, we're on two different ends of the spectrum on Turner then. I don't see him being as good as Jrue maybe can be or as good as Collison.
Being far from a finished product doesn't always mean you end up being an above average one. Potential, to me, just means you haven't done anything of note yet.
It's kind of funny to think back to hopes and reactions on Speights and Thad when they were rookies or 2nd year players. Alot of people thought Thad was this 'potential' star and Speights would take Brand's starting job in his 2nd year. Just like the post draft talk about Evan being this near MVP Kobe. Shows how much fanaticism can cloud fans' views on players on your favorite teams.
We do a draft party every year; when Thad was announced we said in unison "another wing" but after reading about how he blew away our front office with his interview "smarts?" I felt better but we screwed up the 2nd round [ C.Landry and M.Gasol?]. We take Spieghts, in spite of his red flags, because of his potential; and pass on Hibbert, McGee,Hickson and Ibacka who also had upside and in Hibbert's case didn't fit our style, whatever that is and now we take Evan, who in spite of being the consensus pick, may cause us to trade our best player [Iggy] for a big that we could have drafted already. If we took the best player, in this team's mind, in each draft maybe fit should be more of a concern.
I totally agree on the fit thing. Fit was part of my qualms with the Jrue and especially the Turner pick.
Hawes at least did one thing right this year, he picked the correct number. Double Nil. Pretty much describes it better than any words can. But I'm not that disappointed cause I wasn't expecting anything. With Speights I really had hope Collins could push him to being a consistent contributer, but he seems to have gone right back to his careless ways. If this continues the coach should play Brand at center even though he said he didn't want to do that much. Everyone will just have to move up a position. How else are the other guys who are trying out there going to get enough minutes?
Man, I"m really going to watch the nets heat while i drink my morning coffee?
I am watching the Nuggets/Rockets replay and its funny how good Sheldon Williams looks; it is like being in prison for 5 years, that fat chick walking down the street, when you get out, looks pretty good!!
I completely agree with you on sheldon. I watched him and was amazed at how he would be our 2nd best big behind brand. I think his Rebound per 36 is something like 14 per game. He doesn't have an offensive game, but overall he doesn't hurt a team like Spencer Hawes does lol.
Talking about other teams, i suggest watching the Knicks, they have a lot of young talent b/w Fields (looked very good when i watched him last night), Toney Douglas, Galinari, Anthony Randolph, Wilson Chandler. It's sad looking at that team and seeing how much more young talent they have than the sixers despite giving Jordan hill away along with #1 draft picks.
Favors looks really good today.
I didn't understand why he was this "long term project" when by the 2nd half of his freshman year he was putting up 16 and 11 at Georgia Tech. If the Nets blow up their team for Melo they may regret it.
One half year in college is not the same as playing the NBA.
Favors looks good on the offensive glass today, but the Nets aren't calling plays for him, and he isn't really challenged on defense.
I think the Heat may have a key defensive flaw in rebounding the ball or the nets are just real good on the offensive glass
This is true. Thad looked like this wonderful energetic offensive rebounder this rookie year, and then it turned out that the rest of his game was passive and inefficient. We don't know if Favors will ever get a post game.
I think there's a lot of grass is always greener going on due to unrealistic expectations from this team. Turner is doing fine in my opinion, Collins is jerking him around a little on minutes, but he's showing solid effort on the defensive end and he's one of the best rebounders on the team (which says a lot about the big men in general).
This team isn't going anywhere relevant this year, and the sooner Collins realizes that, and stops starting useless irrelevant (long term) players, the better
Yeah, I generally like what I've seen of Turner so far. He could definitely be more aggressive on offense, but deferring to older players is understandable at this point.
Biggest problem I had with Iguodala early in his career was that he deferred so much to Iverson or Weber or whomever...I'm sure Turner works out of that, to me that's normal. I haven't seen anything in Turners game yet that isnt 'fixable' with good coaching and playing time
He needs to learn how fast the real NBA goes and how physical it is.
His shot may or may not be fixable. I don't think he'll ever be quite the scorer that some of the more optimistic fans thought he could be. Can he score a little more than Iguodala and put up about the same rebound/assist numbers? That actually seems pretty possible right now. If so, we'd have a great player... who's just like another player we already have.
He's already pretty impressive attacking the goal. Finishing with either hand after contact. I think that's going to end up being his bread and butter. That aspect of his game will only get easier if he can improve his range.
Your description of Favors seems, to me, to be saying he is in a great situation next to Lopez where here, next to Elton, his warts wouldv'e been easier to find.
Maybe he's in a great situation in New Jersey next to Lopez, or maybe it's terrible if lopez is the only big man they look for offensively, how does Favors grow his game?
If Dw.Howard played next to a McHale or Gasol and just hit the glass, defended and scored oppurtunistic baskets would it more fit his game? And would his numbers suffer? He seems to fit that more than a number #1 option.
Favors will have similar numbers with Lopez or without, in my opinion, but I am not sure he ever becomes a #1 option.
Well yeah, how in the world can a guy that unpolished become a #1 option? I guess Amare did, and if you watch college Olajuwon, all he was was a dunker. I think the idea with him is more a 15 and 11 guy who blocks a lot of shots and plays elite post defense.
Continuing DSS from up higher, no more room:
Houston needs big man help, Dampier is a defensive presence that MIller really isn't, and Yao is supposed on a 'minutes ration' of 24 MPG plus he's likely to get injured at some point (though they've started out 0-3 so far). They like their roster as it is and I think they were just looking for a solid defensive back up for Yao.
I wouldn't really want Budinger and Jordan Hill for Iguodala anyway. Selling way too low in my opinion
I feel if you trade Iguodala you gotta get at least one guy who projects as a quality starter - maybe not as good as Iguodala but still good.
Iguodala should have value around the league, and honestly, since he'll make less money - why shouldn't he net more than Carmelo Anthony who aside from points does very little
Agreed. I want a guy who is still maybe a bit away from their ceiling though. The Iverson trade was a good trade by definition, Andre Miller was a quality starter, but also killed our lottery chances. If they trade Iguodala, I want it to be a move that makes the team far worse now, but hopefully light years better in the long run.
I thought the Iverson trade was awful, it was the definition of treading water, just amplified (hind sightly) by the fact that after two years the sixers got nothing for Andre Miller being on the team, because 500 was better than building for the future.
The trade would look a lot better if we took C.Landry and M.Gasol instead of Smith and Kopponen. [both picks from Denver}
The Trade would have looked a lot better if they had moved Miller when he had value.
The Iverson trade made us much better that year. Miller was great and Joe Smith played his ass off for a contract. I seriously doubt the Sixers are going to even tread water in any kind of Iguodala trade, even if the goal of the trade is to improve the team.
Right and what was achieved by getting better? Illusory hope, it now seems.
Forgot to DVR the game last night. Anybody know if it's possible to watch a recording online somewhere?
Not that I know of, unfortunately.
doesn't league pass broadband have online archives of games? Free preview?
Yup, but if you live in a Philly market it's blacked out.
Even the archived games? That just sucks
Yup, it's pretty bad. It would be awesome if they removed all the comercials/pregame/halftime show from the archived games too, or at least created a better rewind/fast forward system lol.