I was shocked, and quite frankly appalled to learn that the Sixers abandoned the PO after the first quarter in last night's game. When I read that quote from Kate Fagan's piece, I spent some time soul searching and trying to figure out why I didn't even realize they were running "typical" NBA sets. The simple answer is that I probably should have realized it, but the improved ball and player movement in the second half stood out so much I just assumed this was what the PO was supposed to do.
Since I now know they were only in the sets early on, I can more accurately assess what I saw from the PO. The first thing that struck me was the spacing. As soon as they crossed mid-court, the players were fanning out, essentially abandoning the lane and they seemed fairly disciplined in keeping their spacing. The only problem is that they weren't doing anything with it. The ball was sticking and the players were sticking. Kate talked about how players were failing to cut backdoor, instead faking backdoor cuts and then trying to show for a pass on the perimeter. Meanwhile, whoever had the ball simply pounded it into the floor, looking for opportunities that never came to be.
It seemed like Jordan recognized the problems, and tried to initiate offense in the post with Brand, Dalembert or Iguodala (once or twice). I remember one play where the floor was properly spaced, Williams fed Brand on the low left block, then filtered through the lane on the baseline. All the other players rotated along the perimeter, balancing the floor. Dalembert moved to the high post on the opposite side of the lane. This was pretty much perfect. Brand had an outlet, there was no one immediately available to double the ball in the post. Not surprisingly, Brand went one-on-one with Al Harrington and scored easily. I'm not sure how much the PO had to do with this possession, though. There was nothing intricate about it. It was basically exactly what the Sixers tried to do at the beginning of last season, only with better spacing.
The takeaway may be that this is the only aspect of the offense the team has really grasped. Floor balance and spacing. They don't know what cuts to make, they don't know when to make them. Strike that, it may be a bit harsh, let's say they aren't comfortable enough, as a unit, to know (a) what cuts to make and (b) what cuts their teammates will make in certain situations.
The result of this confusion (at worst) or lack of familiarity (if we're being charitable) leads to over-dribbling on the perimeter, passes that don't gain any kind of an advantage, and a rushed shot at the end of the shot clock.
If we're going to be honest, this is probably where they should be at this point. They should be just getting the hang of the offense. It should look stodgy and maybe a little hectic and indecisive, but there should be flashes right? Maybe 1 out of 10 plays you should nod your head and say, "I get it." "I see how this can work." I didn't have that feeling early in the game.
For me, though, there's a larger problem. This is the preseason. This is not the time to extend your studs past 30 minutes (Brand played 33 and Iguodala played 37) simply to make sure you get a W. While that sin is somewhat forgivable, I can find no logical reason whatsoever for eschewing the PO for three entire quarters. It makes no sense whatsoever. If the Sixers were going to struggle in the PO last night, fine. Let them take their lumps and work on what they were doing wrong within the offense. You don't say, "Well, we have to win this game, so just fall back on your old habits and get the W."
If the future of this team is tied to their ability to properly execute the PO, when are they going to learn it if not in the preseason? And let's not kid ourselves, if the Sixers aren't proficient enough in the offense to properly run it against this Knicks team, which under the best of circumstances is worse than most college defenses, in the preseason, there is an unbelievable amount of work to be done. As far as I'm concerned, the final 36 minutes of last night's game were a complete waste of time and energy.
On a bright note, Thad did have the dunk of the night:
Given that Eddie did talk about installing some regular NBA sets before, maybe this was an opportunity to do so in real game situation. That is the only positive I can pull from it.
I think the issue is pretty much like you said, they are not totally comfortable making the cuts, and they are not totally comfortable knowing if their teammate made the same read they did.
There are some football offenses(Run & Shoot, and some versions of WCO, if I recall), where the receivers have some level of autonomy to read the defense and make independent route adjustments. In those cases, the quarterbacks and receivers will initially struggle to get on the same page every time out. The PO(& the Triangle) for that matter, seem to operate on a similar principle.
That being said, I cannot think of any team that did not struggle putting in this style of offense initially. The Bulls mucked through, and would break away from the Triangle often to let MJ go to work, especially during the 1st couple years. Similarly, the Lakers did and do the same thing with Kobe. So, breaking away from the offense is not necessarily an unusual thing.
This actually reminds me of a screenwriting class I took in college. Essentially, there are rules to writing a screenplay. You don't always have to follow the rules, but you have to know what they are, inside and out, before you can break them.
The Sixers are at the point where they need to spend every available second (that doesn't count against your win/loss record) on learning the rules of the PO. At least that's what I think they should be doing. It doesn't take a whole lot of time to switch back to the one-four isos we all know and love from last season.
There is something to that. I agree. Although, from EJ's comments, he wanted to work on learning to directly exploit matchups, since the Knicks are such an odd bunch. I do agree that they need to work on the offense and get it down. I guess EJ felt it was more important to get the Big 3 in a rhythm, more so Thad & Brand, since Dre has the ball in his hands most of the time, and can create his own opportunities. The Princeton is more of an equal-opportunity offense where the reads and flow can allow for a tilt toward certain individuals. Once you master it, like the triangle, you can manipulate that flow to create touches and exploit matchups.
That being said, that offense they ran in the 2nd half certainly resembled more PO then Mo Cheeks, so it is nice to know that those lessons are seeming to stick
True. The Knicks are just a hard team to use as a gauge for your offense or defense, especially if(since it is preseason) you are not game-planning too much.
I don't know if anyone has read this yet but it would explain Jrue's DNPCD.Curious to know what everybody else thinks ? Brian brought up a good point. I am all for winning but the pre season is the time to work out the kinks.But hey if they can win games during the season at all costs then it doesn't matter.It is great to see though that it seems like we finally got a coach who seems to be a task master. He may be talking about the attitude of all players and getting that nipped in the bud before the season starts.Very strange but so far this season it seems the games the Sixers have been in the other teams seem to leave starters in the 4th qusrter.It seems like Jordan is trying to instill a winning mentality, something I feel has been lacking the past couple years vs."playing the right way", to use an LB Moniker. To me Brand and Iguodala are the epitome of a refuse to lose mentality. I think we have the right leaders on the court in the 4th quarter to win those close ones which has hurt them the last couple years. If you take the buzzer beater and close games lost and turn them around you can become a 50 win team.
I noticed that exchange between Green and Iguodala, didn't take it as an entitlement thing from Iguodala, took as him kind of saying, "We're on the same team, why are you fighting me for a rebound?"
I'd take it a step further and ask Willie why he never fights guys on the other team for a rebound :)
Don't buy Jordan's explanation of Jrue's DNPCD. If he sits him against Chris Duhon and Nate Robinson because they're just too intense defensively, Jrue will never be able to play against anyone.
I think in the case of Nate Robinson it`s a bit different. Robinson is like a mosquito, and not just any mosquito, but the really obnoxious ones near the Chesapeake Bay.
If you recall last year against the knicks, he was really trying to get into Lou`s head the entire game. He does that to a lot of players. Of course we want our future PG to be able to man up in those situations, but he is only 19.
I don`t necessarily agree with this, but if Jordan`s excuse wasn`t a load of crap, then I can kind of see where he was coming from.
Fagan had some interesting info in her follow up article on her blog:
philly.com/philly/sports/Holidays_DNP.html
EJ said he felt his team was at a disadvantage since they only run parts of the offense, had to call out the plays and several of the opponents new what was being run (Hughes and Jeffries.)
Also, he commented on some bad attitude, teamwork issues taht he is addressing. Good to see him try and nip this in the bud. The team tends to be a reflection of Iguodala- often a good thing except when his competitiveness leads to frustration and pouting.
I found both of those points to be such an interesting thought processes. They've discussed the fact that they have not installed all the necessary counters yet, so they given the Knicks actually had a bit of an advantage while also having major mismatches that even basic sets could exploit, it makes for a reasonable approach
I brought up to Danny [recliner g.m.] how there was no cutting for 3/4 of the nets game and how I thought somebody should of took it on themselves to "get the ball rolling" by being aggressive and cutting on their own but Dannie said useless cutting to cut isn!t the answer.My problem with what I!ve seen is if somebody [Sam for example] deoesn!t read a situation right does everybody stand around till he responds correctly because it seems ,like Brian said, they are spread out but gaining no advantage.
I'm not sure where the breakdown is coming. I suppose it could be that they're standing around waiting for someone else to move, but there needs to be something to spark the defensive reaction, which should lead to the proper movement. There's no initial push, whatever that should be. Maybe, say Iguodala has the ball at the top left of the key, Brand comes up to set a pick for him, Lou cycles through the lane, down to the baseline, and out to the corner for an open three. If the defense adjusts to Lou, that should leave the middle of the lane open for a dive to the hole by Brand, if they don't Lou should be open in the corner. If Iguoala's man gets caught on the screen and Brand's man is concerned with Lou cycling through, the lane should be open for Iguodala.
I think of the offense like a computer program: You start with a command, then a series if/then scenarios that everyone needs to run through. The program won't run, though, unless you initiate it. I just didn't see the initiation at all.
Man, isn't it great that Oct/Nov is finally here and there is some basketball discussion going on. Gotta love it.
With that said, this offense is very, very complex with an abundance of thinking going on. With that thinking comes delayed reactions. And some of our players are still of the college age (Lou, Thad of the starters). All of our guys have played the game, pretty much, a different way their whole lives. It's kind of like they are learning the game for the first time, in a sense. We all didn't ride a bike or drive a car as good the first time we attempted to either. They should in no way look like a polished group yet with this offense. And that isn't even considering, for lack of a better term, the chemistry shake-up with Lou becoming a starter, and EB being incorporated in again, and Iguodala and Thad moving to new positions.
There are too many variables to factor in to expect them to look fluid already which is why I think it is a good idea for Jordan to keep and mix in some traditional sets. This way, familiarity (basic sets) can lead to some interim success hopefully and not let the team get in to much of a hole within a game and especially at the start of the season.
I'm not overly worried about the P.O. right now. Partly because I have lower expectations for this season. I expect them to struggle initially, and am more interested in how they finish the season than W/L or seed.
i'm just glad they have committed to a system and their young players. And Jrue will get his chance.
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Given that Eddie did talk about installing some regular NBA sets before, maybe this was an opportunity to do so in real game situation. That is the only positive I can pull from it.
I think the issue is pretty much like you said, they are not totally comfortable making the cuts, and they are not totally comfortable knowing if their teammate made the same read they did.
There are some football offenses(Run & Shoot, and some versions of WCO, if I recall), where the receivers have some level of autonomy to read the defense and make independent route adjustments. In those cases, the quarterbacks and receivers will initially struggle to get on the same page every time out. The PO(& the Triangle) for that matter, seem to operate on a similar principle.
That being said, I cannot think of any team that did not struggle putting in this style of offense initially. The Bulls mucked through, and would break away from the Triangle often to let MJ go to work, especially during the 1st couple years. Similarly, the Lakers did and do the same thing with Kobe. So, breaking away from the offense is not necessarily an unusual thing.
This actually reminds me of a screenwriting class I took in college. Essentially, there are rules to writing a screenplay. You don't always have to follow the rules, but you have to know what they are, inside and out, before you can break them.
The Sixers are at the point where they need to spend every available second (that doesn't count against your win/loss record) on learning the rules of the PO. At least that's what I think they should be doing. It doesn't take a whole lot of time to switch back to the one-four isos we all know and love from last season.
There is something to that. I agree. Although, from EJ's comments, he wanted to work on learning to directly exploit matchups, since the Knicks are such an odd bunch. I do agree that they need to work on the offense and get it down. I guess EJ felt it was more important to get the Big 3 in a rhythm, more so Thad & Brand, since Dre has the ball in his hands most of the time, and can create his own opportunities. The Princeton is more of an equal-opportunity offense where the reads and flow can allow for a tilt toward certain individuals. Once you master it, like the triangle, you can manipulate that flow to create touches and exploit matchups.
That being said, that offense they ran in the 2nd half certainly resembled more PO then Mo Cheeks, so it is nice to know that those lessons are seeming to stick
Good point about the offense in the second half, although, it was against the Knicks so who knows.
True. The Knicks are just a hard team to use as a gauge for your offense or defense, especially if(since it is preseason) you are not game-planning too much.
I don't know if anyone has read this yet but it would explain Jrue's DNPCD.Curious to know what everybody else thinks ? Brian brought up a good point. I am all for winning but the pre season is the time to work out the kinks.But hey if they can win games during the season at all costs then it doesn't matter.It is great to see though that it seems like we finally got a coach who seems to be a task master. He may be talking about the attitude of all players and getting that nipped in the bud before the season starts.Very strange but so far this season it seems the games the Sixers have been in the other teams seem to leave starters in the 4th qusrter.It seems like Jordan is trying to instill a winning mentality, something I feel has been lacking the past couple years vs."playing the right way", to use an LB Moniker. To me Brand and Iguodala are the epitome of a refuse to lose mentality. I think we have the right leaders on the court in the 4th quarter to win those close ones which has hurt them the last couple years. If you take the buzzer beater and close games lost and turn them around you can become a 50 win team.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/deep-sixer/Holidays_DNP.html
You beat me to the link. Good points.
I noticed that exchange between Green and Iguodala, didn't take it as an entitlement thing from Iguodala, took as him kind of saying, "We're on the same team, why are you fighting me for a rebound?"
I'd take it a step further and ask Willie why he never fights guys on the other team for a rebound :)
Don't buy Jordan's explanation of Jrue's DNPCD. If he sits him against Chris Duhon and Nate Robinson because they're just too intense defensively, Jrue will never be able to play against anyone.
I think in the case of Nate Robinson it`s a bit different. Robinson is like a mosquito, and not just any mosquito, but the really obnoxious ones near the Chesapeake Bay.
If you recall last year against the knicks, he was really trying to get into Lou`s head the entire game. He does that to a lot of players. Of course we want our future PG to be able to man up in those situations, but he is only 19.
I don`t necessarily agree with this, but if Jordan`s excuse wasn`t a load of crap, then I can kind of see where he was coming from.
Fagan had some interesting info in her follow up article on her blog:
philly.com/philly/sports/Holidays_DNP.html
EJ said he felt his team was at a disadvantage since they only run parts of the offense, had to call out the plays and several of the opponents new what was being run (Hughes and Jeffries.)
Also, he commented on some bad attitude, teamwork issues taht he is addressing. Good to see him try and nip this in the bud. The team tends to be a reflection of Iguodala- often a good thing except when his competitiveness leads to frustration and pouting.
I found both of those points to be such an interesting thought processes. They've discussed the fact that they have not installed all the necessary counters yet, so they given the Knicks actually had a bit of an advantage while also having major mismatches that even basic sets could exploit, it makes for a reasonable approach
I love the attitude thing too
I brought up to Danny [recliner g.m.] how there was no cutting for 3/4 of the nets game and how I thought somebody should of took it on themselves to "get the ball rolling" by being aggressive and cutting on their own but Dannie said useless cutting to cut isn!t the answer.My problem with what I!ve seen is if somebody [Sam for example] deoesn!t read a situation right does everybody stand around till he responds correctly because it seems ,like Brian said, they are spread out but gaining no advantage.
I'm not sure where the breakdown is coming. I suppose it could be that they're standing around waiting for someone else to move, but there needs to be something to spark the defensive reaction, which should lead to the proper movement. There's no initial push, whatever that should be. Maybe, say Iguodala has the ball at the top left of the key, Brand comes up to set a pick for him, Lou cycles through the lane, down to the baseline, and out to the corner for an open three. If the defense adjusts to Lou, that should leave the middle of the lane open for a dive to the hole by Brand, if they don't Lou should be open in the corner. If Iguoala's man gets caught on the screen and Brand's man is concerned with Lou cycling through, the lane should be open for Iguodala.
I think of the offense like a computer program: You start with a command, then a series if/then scenarios that everyone needs to run through. The program won't run, though, unless you initiate it. I just didn't see the initiation at all.
This offense is supposed to punish lazy teams, like the Knicks. I saw no indication of that.
I guess we have to find a book on the P.O. to fully understand it; from what I see of the triangle you definitely need certain guys to run it.
http://www.amazon.com/Basketballs-Princeton-Style-Offense-Simplified-Approach/dp/1930546920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255561062&sr=8-1
Thank you, Eugene.
Here are a couple of links that discuss the x's and o's of the offense:
Fran Fraschilla
http://www.eteamz.com/minnesotamagic/files/PrincetonOffense.doc
From the man himself
http://books.google.com/books?id=v9eE-WVXjJQC&pg=PA111&dq=nba+coaches+playbook+princeton+offense&ei=n5SWSqP1No7SMrfwqNcH&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Man, isn't it great that Oct/Nov is finally here and there is some basketball discussion going on. Gotta love it.
With that said, this offense is very, very complex with an abundance of thinking going on. With that thinking comes delayed reactions. And some of our players are still of the college age (Lou, Thad of the starters). All of our guys have played the game, pretty much, a different way their whole lives. It's kind of like they are learning the game for the first time, in a sense. We all didn't ride a bike or drive a car as good the first time we attempted to either. They should in no way look like a polished group yet with this offense. And that isn't even considering, for lack of a better term, the chemistry shake-up with Lou becoming a starter, and EB being incorporated in again, and Iguodala and Thad moving to new positions.
There are too many variables to factor in to expect them to look fluid already which is why I think it is a good idea for Jordan to keep and mix in some traditional sets. This way, familiarity (basic sets) can lead to some interim success hopefully and not let the team get in to much of a hole within a game and especially at the start of the season.
I'm not overly worried about the P.O. right now. Partly because I have lower expectations for this season. I expect them to struggle initially, and am more interested in how they finish the season than W/L or seed.
i'm just glad they have committed to a system and their young players. And Jrue will get his chance.