Lou Williams was once on the untouchable list for the Sixers. As we've been informed several times over the past couple of weeks, that list no longer exists. In fact, we've heard a couple of things regarding Lou. One, teams were interested in trading for him last season and also over the summer. Two, his name is again coming up this summer. After the jump I'll lay out what I think the Sixers should be looking for in return for Lou.
I'm going to start this post off with the same disclaimer that belongs atop any trade rumor post. I don't want any moves made before Eddie Jordan is fired. If Ed Stefanski won't or can't pull the trigger on firing Jordan, I want both of them gone.
Now that we have that out of the way, I'll lay out how I view Lou Williams. He
can be a terribly disruptive scorer. He gets to the line (though not nearly as frequently this season as he has in the past), he can create his own shot, he can score points in bunches and carry the offense for stretches. He is not a point guard. He cannot run an offense. He really can't even run a fast break. He's not what I'd call a combo guard, he's an undersized shooting guard with a mediocre, at best, jump shot, who can get into the lane whenever he wants.
On defense, he's a zero. He can't guard the ball, he offers little-to-no resistance to drivers. He gives too much of a cushion to shooters. He doesn't fight over screens, he doesn't bounce under them, he pretty much just sticks to them. Off the ball he loses track of his man, he fails to rotate quickly or aggressively to close out on shooters. He gets steals by gambling and using his athleticism, a style which usually gives up more points than it creates.
I realize Lou is young, but he's been in the league for five years and playing decent minutes for four, I'm confident that we have a pretty good idea of who Lou is and what type of player he is. Instant offense, no defense. A bench player.
When you look at his contract and check around the league for comparable players, he isn't grossly overpaid. His contract is long, but it's not horrible. There's nothing about Lou nor his contract that screams albatross to me, but there's also nothing that screams asset. Honestly, I think if they traded him tomorrow and found themselves lacking for punch off the bench they could get someone to play his role pretty easily. I won't say he's a dime a dozen, but you get the picture.
To sum it up, Lou is neither here nor there. I don't concern myself with his contract one way or another, I don't think he'd be hard to replace and he's probably redundant on this roster. Meaning, if they traded him, I'd be fine with that.
Which brings us to the key question: What would the Sixers need to get in return? Here's what I'd be looking for:
- A defensive big - Lou's contract is right in the sweet spot for defensive bigs off the bench. The Sixers really need someone to play center when Dalembert is out of the game, someone who can protect the paint. Getting a young guy to fill this role would be ideal, but I'd settle for an older guy who could give you 10-15 minutes, more if needed.
- A real two guard - Meaning, a shooting guard who can actually shoot. Young or old, doesn't matter to me. These two things would be ways to improve the team by trading Lou, but there are stipulations to both.
- Contract length - As I've said before, I'm looking to summer 2011 as a time for the Sixers to make a move. So the ideal is to send Lou out and take back only contracts that expire after next season. If you can fill need 1 or 2 with a young guy, this isn't the primary concern, but if you're trading him for a veteran player, that player's contract must expire after the 2010-2011 season.
- Draft picks - I'd prefer a speculative pick, maybe something that's lottery protected for a year or two, but if you're trading with a playoff team, I'd prefer a couple of second-rounders to a late first for a number of reasons.
- Luxury tax relief - The Sixers probably need to shave at least a few million off their cap number next season to avoid paying the luxury tax.
That's what I'm looking for, but what would I settle for? Probably some combination of Draft Picks and Luxury Tax relief. It's not so much that I'm down on Lou, it's that I think you can fill his role at any time, and honestly, instant offense off the bench isn't the first hole I'd be looking to fill. If you can get out from under his contract prior to summer 2011, you've got more money to work with to address the bigger problems. If there's going to be a fire sale of sorts, Lou is the one contract that people seem interested in that I could stomach moving.
What do you guys think? Too young to give up on him? Maybe he could improve his defense if given proper coaching? Get rid of him tomorrow? Let me know in the comments.
Wouldn't it be nice to get Rudy Fernandez by trading him ? Me likes.
I often wonder id Rudy is hyped up a bit? He gets steals but is a great defender. He can shoot 3's, but how are the other areas of his floor game?
Here's a comparison of Rudy, Green and Lou this year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=hN4r7
I agree with your assessment for the most part. If Lou was paid to be a starter I'd be motivated to trade him. If you have to choose between Iguodala and Lou I'd keep Iguodala. If you can get back equal value and fill another need that is fine- but it will cost either a pick or money to replace what Lou brings (once AI is gone.) So I'd be disappointed to simply dump him to avoid the tax. It would be another in a list of indictments against Ed's poor financial management hurting the team.
There is no really strong reason to "dump Lou." He has his strengths and weaknesses, but in the end it's good to have a guy who can create his own offense, handle the ball and put pressure on the defense. He is not a pure PG, starting PG, or even average defender. Asking him to play these roles is akin to asking Sam to be a passing big. But used correctly Lou can have a positive impact.
Lou can play PG for stretches next to Jrue, Iguodala or someone like Evan Turner (or Wall.) If you built a good defensive team around athletes he could help overcome a lack of individual scorers. He is also slowly improving in terms of some of his huge glaring weaknesses of on the ball defense and avoiding picks. He'll never be a good defender against stronger guards, but shows signs of being average to good against jitterbugs (for example he recently did as good of a job as any against Paul and Jennings.)
A scorer like Lou is both necessary and replaceable. He's being paid a fair, MLE like contract until age 26 to be a 6th man bench scorer who plays back-up PG for stretches.
I wouldn't take this years stats as a referance for Rudy cause he was injured most of the time,he had pretty bad back spasms.Anyway what like about him is he's a great 3 point shooter and he is not a Kapono,he can find his own shot.He is also a great athlete,remember him in the dunk contest ? When you look at the stats it may look like Lou is better but he Lou is very undersized and is neither a Pg or Sg.That's why I think a Lou for Rudy (not head-to-head of course,POR should give a few other things) would be great.
Everything is moot until EJ's gone. That said, I'm not a fan of Lou and I don't enjoy watching him. I'd rather watch someone who really knows the game and plays smart basketball. That's not to say he's a bad player; I agree with your assessment of him. I'd prefer to get a backup center. I hate seeing Speights and Brand at the 5. Not excited about getting another SG. Would rather go with Iguadala at the 2 for now
A trade that works financially and would be applauded by the coach(scorer) and probably the GM(financial relief).
Iggy & Lou for Kevin Martin & Kenny Thomas(8 mil off the books).
Agreed on getting rid of Lou, and if anyone has been reading the comments the last 2 days I volunteered to drive him to his next destination.
Lou is just a liability all across the board, when I make a list of our future team I always leave Lou off even though he is here for 3 more years. He is a erratic, flashy, losing type player who plays for himself at all times.
I am anxious to see how the user named "c" will respond to this. I am convinced that C is actually either Lou, a relative of lou's, or a great friend of Lou's.
Well it's obvious that Lou stole your lunch money when you were a child or something which makes your analysis suspect.
Lou is a fine bench player, he should get minutes off the bench that willie green gets, since Lou is better offensively than Willie.
Lou is not a starter, he's not a point guard, again, he suffers because the organization asks him to do things that aren't in his skill set and the fans penalize him for being unable to do what he wasn't ever going to be able to do anyway.
Lou's a fine bench player on a contending team, on the sixers, he's an extra piece and if he could be moved to improve the long term prospects of the team, fine...for instance, if a team says (hypothetically for all the literals out there) - we'll take Elton Brand (or Sam) but only if you include Lou WIlliams too - I don't think it should hold up a deal.
Been saying this a couple years now, Lou's a nice bench player who should get most if not all of Willie Greens minutes (which shouldn't exceed 20 per game from a real coach with a brain), but he's not untouchable (and nor should he ever have been untouchable)
+1
Nah I'm the guy who steals the lunch money Magee! Lou is a bench player for sure who belongs in a rotation on a losing team. Saying that he should be getting Willies minutes is some rocket scientist shit.
eddie jordan will be gone soon. No need to trade for players to fit his coaching.
for this team to succeed, ball pressure for 48 minutes is key; they have to be a defensive team first if Iggy and Elton stay. You mentioned we know what Lou is, I also think we have a pretty good idea what Thad is and with him as an explosive 6th man Lou!s main skill IS replaced and a vet. or young defensive p.g. [Sharon Collins-2nd round] could step in and give Jrue a rest. An expiring contract and draft pick works for me because the main benefit of a L.Will. trade is keeping Iggy to me.
I'd go so far as to say we should trade Lou.
"...he's an undersized shooting guard with a mediocre, at best, jump shot, who can get into the lane whenever he wants... On defense, he's a zero."
We definitely don't need someone like this on the Sixers at this juncture. Like you said, if someone will give us a defensive big or a real shooter for him, we should pull the trigger. I'd go so far as to say we should be actively shopping him... and it seems like that might be the case.
Signing Iverson nullified our need for Lou. They are the same player except that Iverson is smarter, a better play maker, a better shooter, cheaper, and creates for his teammates. If we feel like we need a player like Lou, sign Iverson to another 1 year deal for the veteran's minimum.
While I have been in the camp that Lou is well-suited to be your scorer, 6th-7th guy off the bench, his apparent ego and selfish attitude have sealed the deal for me.
To somehow think you 'deserve' to be a starter but your play comes nowhere close to backing that up - can you say reincarnation of a young Sam with that kind of whiny mentality. When he refused to go to the huddle the other night and had to be told by Ayers to come (all the while being supposedly in the game on that play), that was the end for me.
And if the excuse is made for him that how could he like this coach, then I can harken back to last year and remember his carefree attitude and grins when leaving the court after a couple of losses.
His mind-set along with his floor game (or lack of) just isn't where it needs to be in order to compete and experience success on this level.
I hate to call the guy a loser BUT get rid of him YESTERDAY. If he stays, he will become a mild lockerroom cancer and definite chemistry killer. He already is throwing tantrums because a 19 yr old has stole some of his shine. He thinks of his game like his pump faking - high frequency. NOT!
Not to make excuses for Lou's complaints...
But he was built up this summer as answer at PG (mistakenly so.) He started the season productively and then got hurt.
I think it is understandable that he is frustrated that the team went out and signed AI and let AI supplant him as a starter and basically take over his minutes.
If the team had acted responsibly by getting a decent starting PG this summer and not signing AI then they could have avoided the whole problem. In fact if they cut AI there will be plenty of minutes for Lou in a role as a scoring guard of the bench.
But I'm not under the impression that AI supplanted him as starter, I think Jrue has. Mainly because him and AI did start together for a while.
And yes, he did start the season productively, but only offensively. For most of what he gave you on that end, he caused as much if not more to be given up on the other end by being the first to allow the defense to break down, whether it was his man scoring or someone else's due to the subsequent scrambling and rotations.
But none of that or his instant offense role off the bench holds weight with me anymore after his lack-of-team-interests displayed the past couple of weeks. You can't develop chemistry with guys who think because they are older or longer tenured, that they are better because of just that. He has provided a peek into the disruption he can become this past week.
Whether it's Jrue or a new guy they bring in by trade or draft, Lou will never accept that he isn't better than them and therefore become the cancer that team-building is allergic to.
I agree that Iverson didn't steal Lou's starting spot. Lou lost it to Jrue. I also think this BS about him losing his job to injury is complete crap. He was immediately reinserted in the starting lineup when he came back, he played his way out.
If Iverson wasn't here Lou would clearly be playing more, but probably no more than he'd be playing if he was playing better right now. If that makes sense.
I think you are bing to literal about the roster spot. he has essentially lost his spot to AI. I base this on:
1. At the time of the injury EJ said that he planned on starting Jrue next to Lou in the next game (against Boston) had Lou not been injured.
2. EJ also said he planned to use Lou/Jrue as their starting unit when Lou returned.
3. At the time of the AI signing we were told this was a temporary replacement until Lou returned. And that AI was not guaranteed a starting spot of set minutes. I view this as an outright lie IMO.
---
Again, I don't see Lou as a starter. I am not a fan of midget backcourts, and Lou is not a PG. Maybe he could start next to a guy like Evan Turner, but not next to Jrue or AI.
But I do think the franchise sent Lou one message, and then basically throw him on the bench after they replaced him with AI.
They didn't throw him to the bench, though. They started him w/ Iverson until he lost his job.
And defensively, Lou is a big problem. Even if you pair him with a big point, he has to guard someone. Typically, you'd move the smaller guy onto the point, but his defense is so atrocious on the ball that you really don't want to do that.
Well, he lost his 'starting' job but he's still getting more minutes than the 'starter' who replaced him, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Coach Brace Face use the 'come back' on Sunday against the Nets to justify the Iverson/Williams starting back court being revived.
Here's a fun unsubstantiated rumor from Travis Heath at Hoopsworld to distract everyone
Little birdie currently employed by a NBA team just whispered in my ear that he expects Byron Scott to eventually be head coach of 76ers.
May someday we can just change our name to the Philly Former-Nets.
If the sixers are going to hire a former Net who another team is still paying, why not just hire Lawrence Frank, or must all hires be 'once removed' from the Nets at least?:)
And when did the Nets ever become the gold standard for anything. They had Jason Kidd and won a few years with him. But the rest of the team was always a bunch of over-paid guys who never achieved much without Kidd.
Do we really want to be like a franchise that overpaid a singman (RJ), overpaid a PF/C(KMart) and brought in a troublesome scorer (VC.)
Wait, we already are that team (Iguodala, Brand/Sam and AI.) In fact all we have to do is trade for Arenas and we will have replicated the Nets just without a HOF PG like Kidd.
I think this is more of a deeper commentary on Ed Stefanski and his GM Stewardship more than anything else...he's from the Nets so he likes to go with folks he knows. I don't like that idea.
What is funny is that bios of him always said that he himself was an outsider, who somehow worked his way into the NBA brotherhood. Now that he is in, he seems to have forgotten he used to be out.
The Nets won because of their great defense. KMart and Jefferson were very big parts of that.
Didn't they sign and trade KMart away instead of paying him?
And the Jefferson signing was a no brainer to do at the time. He was a young guy who showed geat improvement. He just changed randomly a couple years after he got his contract.
I do think Kidd was really, really responsible for the success of the team. Terrific career. He is still great even now.
It's way, way too early to make comparisons like this, but I see a little of Kidd in Jrue. Strong rebounding, runs the break, strong passer, great defense, no jumper :)
You know the story with his name... that it is really pronounced as "Drew."
Makes sense, give D but no J.
League-average + from three :)
Kidd is IMO somewhat underrated despite his star status. In his prime he was the best defensive guard in the league and the best up-tempo PG. I give him 85% of the credit for his Nets team's success. the other guys were solid role players, but not any better or worse than most teams have.
Joe, you are right.
The Nets did a sign and trade with Martin and got back 3 first round picks (including picks from the Clippers and Sixers.)
Per Kate Fagan on Twitter, Iverson missed practice today for personal reasons and is a game time decision tomorrow night. So Lou may get back into the starting lineup w/out Jrue being removed, for one game. At least this way Jordan can ease his way back to the Lou/AI3 starting back court, rather than just going to it immediately.
Do you think if Iverson shows up for the game he won't start?
God no. If he shows, he's starting. If he doesn't show, they'll go w/ Jrue/Lou. If AI3 shows, I think it'll be Lou/AI3.
I hope the EJ era ends real soon. This blog is becoming my life theme with the sixers, depressing.
Dean, did you go to the meet and greet last night?
http://blogs.delawareonline.com/76ers/2010/02/01/the-iverson-ultimatum/
Well, I'd be all for starting Jrue/Lou to give us the best chance to lose, but I don't really care about Lou as far as development goes.
I do. you develop him as a bench scorer who pushes the pace. He should be able to get the the rim against most 2nd team line-ups.
I just have zero interest in Lou as a starter. that was just a big misjudgment by ES and EJ heading into this season. the whole PG's are not needed BS.
Maybe they should be called EFJ and EBS.
This team is run worse then the Clippers. I wish that we could just fast forward to the trade deadline because this wait is just killing all of us.
Someone suggested trading Lou to Portalnd, but the Blazers wouldn't want Lou since they already have Bayless. Lou is bascially a combo guard off the bench, which like Brain said, aren't that hard to find. A team that may be interested could be the Los Angeles Clippers. The Clippers need a combo guard to backup Davis and Gordon. They have a promising center in Deandre Jordan but they wont trade him for Williams. Not when they could sign Flip Murray for cheap and bascially get the same production. But the Clippers will have cap room in the offseason, and they may take Lou Williams off our hands for cap space, ala what the Clippers did to acquire Marcus Camby from Denver and Rasual Butler from New Orleans. Or the Clippers could just draft Willie Warren or Avery Bradley and call it a day...
A friend of a friend of mine who is from Boston and is a huge Celtics fan just relayed a rumor, which is supposedly floating around Celtics blogs. (I had to write "friend of a friend," I hate the Celtics that much).
Ray Allen and Brian Scalabrine's expiring contracts for Dalembert and Iguodala.
Im not sure what the numbers are for the contracts, but just thought I'd throw it out there as I heard it.
As far as LouWill goes, a couple years ago I thought he was going to be the second coming of AI but he just hasn't panned out. Someone else on here said it before, he is just a poor man's Iverson. I agree with what other people have been saying. He is a quality bench player for a scoring spark, but nothing more. I would use him to get rid of a big contract, but not trade him for just cap relief.
Yeah, that's not a rumor, that's a made up trade by some 'fan' that has translated into a rumor...
Magee I only see you shooting down everyone's ideas with your condescending tone, what the hell would you do is what I am wondering?
That's because you selectively read and selectively remember, I have stated what I'd do and besides, that's a horrible trade and you know it.
For once were in agreement
Well you're bound to be right once in your life aren't you?
And what I'd do involves clearing out the front office and head coach, which means at that point you don't rush into anything.
But if you want trades that get the sixers under the tax and give them some flexibility this off season
Iguodala/Dalembert Howard/Dampier (both mavs players can be made to expire this off season)
But be clear, i do not ADVOCATE trading Andre Iguodala - I think it's asinine - so yeah, most trades involving Iguodala shaft the sixers right up there
There's a post on realgm.com sixers board that has a very similar trade suggestion that is probably where it started...(yay proxify)
All I did was pass along a rumor I heard. And I specifically said that I simply heard it from a Celtics fan.
I didn't present the rumor as being highly credible. As such, you didn't need to discredit it with an "ass-hole like" response.
I was just trying to pass along rumor I heard, regardless of it's credibility, to simply help motivate further discussion on what trades the Sixers could make in general.
The fact that it came from a fan of the team we would be trading with made it interesting to me.
Well first off, it's not a rumor
it's something made up by someone who is a fan of the celtics - that doesn't qualify as a rumor - it qualifies as someone playing with a trade machine
Terribly sorry you found it 'ass-holey' - but it ain't a rumor - it's beneath a rumor - it has less credibility than a Sam Smith article - calling it a rumor lends it credibility that it doesn't deserve (though that's what happens with the internet and people not bothering to check sources)
Alright, let's not get into a huff over semantics. It was an idea, not a rumor. He said as much in his original post, so let's just let it go.
And you're only allowed to call me an asshole from now on.
Actually what he said was aa 'rumor floating around celtics blogs' which lends some sort of credence to the fevered imaginings of a drunk celtics fan who has access to a trade machine.
And I didn't call anyone an asshole - i was called one - not that i care that much - just being clear :)
Sorry Brian, not trying to cause a problem here by calling someone an asshole. I appreciate the blog.
Just felt I established the credibility (or lack there of) of the RUMOR I was talking about in my original comment. It didn't need any further explanation or dissection by someone writing to simply be able to read their own posts.
And to be clear, the rumor didn't come from some drunk Celtics fan using the trade machine. As I said, I was told it has been floating around Celtics blogs as a talking point. Brian brings up feasible trades on here for us to discuss all the time. I was just passing along a trade that is being discussed by the opposition.
I'm not saying all blogs are equal, but to discredit their discussions would also serve to discredit our own, which you are unfortunately so adamantly a part of.
Don't worry about it. I get where he's coming from and I get what you were saying. A rumor usually comes from some kind of a source. What you're talking about is an idea or a discussion or whatever. It's just semantics.
JohnEMagee is a weiner. Relax guy, the sixers stink. Get mad at Jordon, not people who take time to read your blog comments.
Going into this off-season with so many big free agents a cap dump trade seems like a great option for our Sixers. While it is only an idea, I'm not sure why JohnEMagee is opposed to trading Iggy (and had to pop off like that...easy on the blogosphere my man) for a huge expiring contract, like the $19 million in Ray Allen's case. The Sixers stink, Iggy isn't a franchise player by any means--though I am a big fan of his game--and we need to start fresh.
Expiring contracts and first round draft picks should me our go to and there shouldn't be anyone on the squad who we consider untradeable--who are we kidding?
http://www.celticsblog.com/2010/2/2/1288276/a-godfather-proposal
Go Sixers!
1 . There are better made up trade offers out there with better picks
2. If you dump your best player for expiring contracts, try at least not to trade him to your historical rival - in general I don't buy into this trade within your division thing - but the celtics are getting old, quickly, helping them revive when there are OTHER teams you can get expiring picks and low first round picks from just seems silly. If the celtics were the only made up option out there fine, but there are lots of made up options out there that get rid of bad contracts along with Iguodala that don't involve improving the soon to be bad Celtics...
There are lots of made up trades on the internet that involve Andre Iguodala expiring contracts and low first round picks...and most of the ones i've read also include one or two young players that might have upside as opposed to the squat coming back from the celtics.
Of all the made up trades i've read regarding iguodala - the one for ray allen is probably the worst.
Then again the Sixers probably could have gotten a better return for AI had they traded with the Celtics. And then the Celtics. I wonder how things would have worked out... would they still have gotten KG?
Someone else just asked me the same thing.
There's no young talent in the Iguodala deal from the celtics in the made up trade - there's expiring contracts - BFD - the sixers probably can get expiring contracts fo Iguodala from tons of teams. There's no rondo or jefferson in this made up deal - it's just Iguodala and Dalembert for expiring deals - there's tons of made up deals out there that trade iguodala and dalembert for expiring deals, some even have a player or two coming back to Philadelphia.
If the offer included Rondo and jefferson in additional to allen and scalabrines expiring deals, fine - but it doesn't - it's just expiring deals - and there are a lot of them out there to make up trades for that don't involve helping the celtics impending collapse be propped up for a couple more years
Why is a Ray Allentype trade the worst? When you are terrible you want to get draft picks and dump cap so you can start fresh, no?
If we were competitive I wouldn't want to make our rival better (though both teams need to be good to have a real rivalry and that hasn't been the case in a long time), but we are not going to compete in the next few years so I take the best offer out there.
No one is beating the LeBrons out of the East anyway, King James gets his first ring this year and has the most fun doing.
The anointment of the Cavs as NBA champions is too early, I don't see them beating the lakers in a 7 game series when it counts (sorry regular season is nice and all - but the lakers healthy are better top to bottom and they don't depend on old fat guys who are slowing down).
The Ray Allen trade is the worst of the made up trades because it's the celtics.
Here's a question.
Why is it BETTER than
Howard/Dampier for Iguodala/Dalembert
It's not - it's the same made up deal - expiring contracts trading the sixers best player and their '2nd worst' contract - same exact deal except Iguodala will only play the sixers twice a year.
All things being equal - you don't trade within your division AND to a long time rival - since all these deals are made up - yes the celtics deal is the worst of the made up deals because any combination of expiring contracts for iguodala and dalembert is better if the team is outside the atlantic division.
It's not the same as when BK pooped the bed and passed on rondo and jefferson, it's just expiring deals, and numerous teams have expiring deals that I can make trades up for iguodala/dalembert.
Now if you want to make up a deal with BRAND and Iguodala for expiring contracts - then maybe we can make up a trade that moves dalembert to sacto for expiring contracts and all the 'bad' contracts are gone.
It's a made up trade, and it's the worst of the made up trades i've seen because it accomplishes the same as many others but also prevents the upcoming Celticspocalypse I'm looking forward to