With apologies to Ferry, the major part of the report is the unearthing of the Collins-Thorn relationship. Many local reporters probably had knowledge of the situation and some fans may have been able to read into what was going on, but now it's out there for everyone to know. Woj has some of the best intel in the league and has made a career out of being able to provide context for his readers by delving into the thought process of the league's movers and shakers. So now, what to do?
Well, first, try to step back and gain some perspective. Obviously, when the intentions of the coach and ownership are brought to light, something that rarely happens when a regime is still intact, strong reactions will follow. As a result of some of his reports, Woj sometimes unintentionally supplies narratives for people depending on how they feel about the subject matter (I had a few rolling around in my head initially for sure). In this case, it's the Sixers instead of say, some guy in Miami.
After letting it sit for a few hours, the first question that comes to my mind is simple: What's the plan? Further down the report, there is a troubling nugget on the ownership-front office-Collins dynamic:
"Ownership is still torn over how much power to give Collins, and his insistence for player personnel autonomy could limit the pool of GM candidates interested in the job. With Josh Harris' new ownership group taking over a year ago, they've learned quickly that Collins' coaching genius is tempered with a need for constant reassurance and maintenance. Nevertheless, Collins did a masterful job with the 76ers this season, reaching the seventh game in the conference semifinals against the Boston Celtics. Ownership considers him a valuable asset."
While Thorn has been lightly mocked by fans for his lack of activity, the report on the relationship between him and Collins possibly explains the difficulties Thorn may have faced in trying to get anything significant done during his tenure as Team President. If the two presumably most important people making basketball decisions rarely see eye-to-eye in how to run the team, well, it's not a good situation.
Now with the ownership seemingly in love with Doug Collins the Coach and unsure about Doug Collins the Talent Evaluator, Josh Harris seems to be in a difficult predicament.
Why is this important? Because good organizations have coaches, front offices, and owners that are on the same page. The two teams in the finals are solid examples of that. Within the division, Danny Ainge, Doc Rivers, and Wyc Grousbeck all work together while the Knicks, for example, have been a mess in this department. Everyone knows the Spurs, a team so well run that Ferry's sheer employment makes him an attractive name, employ a great working relationship in running their team between R.C. Buford, Gregg Popovich and Peter Holt.
All of the well-run organizations have gone about building a team in different ways. In fact, the only real common thread amongst these organizations is that they have a plan itself. Right now, you do wonder what the Sixers' plan is to build a team. I wrote this last week, and it still remains true: "It seems as if Collins' interests will drive the Sixers this offseason. At the very least, I hope these interests have a plan, one that Collins will stick to when coaching the team."
More than anything in the offseason, this team needs a direction to head into the future with. Now with Woj's report, it's easy to feel unsure of that direction, if you haven't already. Why? Because a team can't accomplish anything with competing visions of where the team should be headed amongst the decision makers. Seriously, they won't be able to do anything, good or bad. That would be especially problematic for the Sixers, because they are a team that has glaring holes and a few quality pieces that don't fit together. With what is being reported, Thorn and Collins have not been on the same page since Ed Stefanski left town. Maybe this explains why the team has been relatively stagnant, for better or worse, over the last two years.
One thing that is fairly easy to assume is that Danny Ferry won't come into a situation where he doesn't report directly to the owner, as Woj hinted at. Ferry left a situation in Cleveland where LeBron James' free agency dictated pretty much every personnel move. It even prompted Cavs Owner Dan Gilbert to fire head coach Mike Brown. Ferry reportedly advocated the retention of Brown, who had won 127 games over the two seasons prior to his dismissal.
From everything I've read about Ferry, it seems as if he doesn't seek total autonomy, which is why he is probably doing his due diligence and research on the Sixers organization. He had a solid working relationship with Brown in Cleveland, and sees how Buford and Popovich work together on a daily basis. If he doesn't feel that type of partnership would be possible with Collins, Ferry will not take the job. I'm fairly sure of that.
Still, anyone from the Spurs organization is definitely intriguing as a GM candidate. They are probably one of the two best organizations in sports along with the New England Patriots. In fact, I still find it impossible how Mike Budenholzer hasn't gotten a shot at an NBA coaching gig yet. What can we expect from Ferry if hired?
All and all, it's pretty hard to tell. Ferry probably can't be judged too critically by what happened in Cleveland. While he was unable to build a championship team around LeBron James, those teams were very successful. Also, hanging over his stay with the Cavs at all times was LeBron James' impending free agency and the need for the team to win a championship in Cleveland before his contract expired. Short-term moves were made and James' supporting cast fell short in the playoffs twice, himself once. If LeBron had re-upped in 2009 then Ferry probably handles the team differently. Obviously the Sixers have no such otherworldly talent on the roster. Ironically, one could argue Collins would need to be appeased with short-term moves if he were to stay. I say ironically because for all the good Collins can do coaching a basketball team, he isn't getting you 29-8-7 every night.
It says something to me that the Spurs took Ferry right back in. He reportedly was a major part in bringing little known Danny Green over to San Antonio from Cleveland, where Ferry drafted Green in the second round. One could argue these are the types of moves Ferry could make building a team in a lower-pressure and more patient environment. You just don't know though.
Finally, back to Collins. After thinking about it for awhile, he may be misguided in thinking he can be the de facto GM, but you can see why he would want those powers. He didn't have a very good team on the floor, especially in the frontcourt, for the past two years, and yet he took them to the playoffs. Collins knows the team needs better players and he wants to be the one to bring in guys to make the team better. It's fairly understandable, actually.
Still, it's easy to wonder if Collins' coaching style, which tends to be very emotional, would suit him as a decision maker. There are rarely any quick fixes in building a team as simple as deciding to double-team a scorer after a hot first half, which we know Collins can do. Would he make moves both wise in the present and future? I don't think it's wise to have a coach also running the team just because executives are paid to see the bigger picture, but that's me.
No matter what happens in the GM search, the candidate will likely at least need to have a shared philosophy with Collins. Heading into the offseason, what the Sixers are doing isn't just intriguing. How they are doing it is also a hot topic.
Masterful job? If he had done a masterful job they would have won the division, and beaten the older slower celtics when they had the chance. Talk about hyperbole.
Ferry, according to reports today, is hesitant to take a job where he doesn't have autonomy...which is funny to me.
I'm having trouble taking your temperature on this news. You're excited about it, right?
The Ferry news? It's laughable, I'm amused. The team is turning into a circus. The 'excitement' I had over new ownership and a fresh approach to a basketball team has evaporated for a variety of reasons. I realize now that new ownership is weak and feckless and as much as I hoped not, overly impressed with the improbable (and possibly unrepeatable) run in the playoffs to the point where they think they're close.
I sense a return to the post larry brown days when instead of facing reality more 'tweaks' will be made cause they're close...I don't believe a coach should have a say in building a roster (not a lot of former coaches end up GMs for a reason one would think)...I just think it's now purely entertaining...the sixers won't win a title or contend for one any time soon, maybe the next ownership group will have the spine to stand up to the all powerful collins, but this one seems ready to let him run the show...
It's all fun to me, it always has been, it's about entertainment (mine) and I'm going to be fully entertained now I can tell, not by what's on the court, cause that's probably still going to be mired in mediocre but hey - at least they'll keep losing in the first round right, but by the circus that is the public statements we all know are bs, by watching Andre Iguodala traded to a place where he's appreciated by fans, the organization, and his coach (probably), by watching Doug Collins be more worried about the w-l record than the development of players, by Lavoy Allen being Lavoy Allen next year and everyone wondering where the guy who played great against one team with an old breaking down fart at center may have gone.
It's all lughable.
You have to laugh, you'd cry your eyes out if you didn't (It's highly doubtful anyone here knows who said that)
Something to do with the Indigo Girls :)
Mo Cheeks took the team to the playoffs
Tony Dileo took the team to the playoffs
The praise Collins gets for coaching a 500 team is amazing
Not to the second round. Now, a Rose/Noah-less Bulls team probably isn't even a playoff-caliber team, certainly not a high seed-caliber team, but even if you throw that out, the Celtics series is by far the best a post-Iverson Sixers team has played in the playoffs.
That says more about the hunk of crap the sixers have been since brown left to me.
The celtics series was winnable, the sixers should have been pummeled in five games by the heat (heat match up better against the sixes, cause the sixers have no big man to scare em either) then be praised for their 'great' series against the celtics.
A series they were only in due to major injuries to the bulls after a swoon that the 'masterful' coach couldn't stop from happening so a team that should have won the division ended up in 3rd place.
How is that a masterful coaching job when you finish behind the Knicks.
The sixers should have beat the celtics, I'm not praising collins for coaching them to a loss in 7 games
Sigh
Collins had a completely different team than both Cheeks and DiLeo, and lacked two major center-pieces Cheeks/DiLeo had. If you don't think he deserves praise for doing what he did with Spencer Hawes as his center and Nik Vucevic as his backup and a very green, young Jrue Holiday at point then your favorite word has to be invoked - irrational. But carry on...
I can't get mad at Collins for wanting some say. Like Brian said last Night Collins had Hawes as a center who he didn't have a say in and Evan turner was the number two pick. I would want some say after that as well.
It's not a say he wants, he wants control, he doesn't want anyone to contradict him
That, or maybe he doesn't want the guy who tried to trade Iguodala for Monta Ellis making any personnel decisions.
So you want the guy who draft Vucevic with no history of winning in the nba or building a succesful NBA roster making personnel decisions with out anyone to make sure he's not a looney?
As we all know Collins loves Iguodala right?
The only thing I'm sure I don't want right this second is to read your rants all day long.
As you wish master brian
Can you really blame a guy for not hitting draft-gold on the Vuc pick? What was that like the 16th pick in the draft? How about the fact that it was pretty well documented that Collins didn't want Turner two years ago, but rather would have chosen Favors? I like Turner, but I would have taken Cousins over him. And Favors looks to have a brighter future than both of them.
I would tend to agree that the preference would be for an owner, GM, and coach to be on the same page. But there is a lot we still don't know about this whole situation. And I was not a big fan of Thorn. Maybe Collins was preventing Torn from doing his job? I don't know. But if that was the case, I would think that Thorn would have left awhile ago.
Why is Vucevic not considered a success? The Sixers got a solid backup center in a pretty weak draft. There were 4 players taken after him in the 1st round that were considered better players- Shumpert, Faried, Singleton, and Brooks. None of those players are all stars, they'll either be solid starters or bench players.
I am not saying he isn't. At that point in the draft, I am happy with him. I was just responding to GoSixers criticism of the pic as a Collins pick.
How about the fact that it was pretty well documented that Collins didn't want?
It was well documented? I don't think it's documented at all.
There's one guy who I trust when he talks about the sixers, he's made it clear, so I buy it.
It's well accepted then, does that work better for you? Like the larry hughes draft where brown was the driving force behind hughes whereas dileo and king each wanted a different guy (nowitzki / pierce, i never remember who wanted who, (whom?))
Yeah that's better. I just didn't know, thought Collins liked Turner. Sorry I brought it up.
I think what Collins says publicly isn't always the truth of what he feels - but is there really anything to be gained by putting down a player publicly? It's not good for the player (or the coach even) just ask Larry brown :)
I believe that he wanted Favors over Turner - but he can't have favors - he has turner - so he has to at least pretend he believes in him publicly - not just for fans or such but if his name is brought up in trade talks the perception that the sixers like him as a player is vital.
I personally think (I said so earlier) that the only 'rookie contract' guys that matter are Jrue as a starter and lavoy if yo uwant to keep a bench guy around but even he isn't so important if they commit to repouring the foundation (which I think they need to do)
Can you clear up a few things for me:
1. Was the Iguodala for Ellis swap really considered, and who was the main supporter for it?
2. Did Doug Collins want Favors, Cousins, or Wes Johnson for the #2 overall pick?
3. Who is most responsible for the Dalembert trade? Did Doug Collins support it?
I know that these answers are based off of speculation.
I'm not sure I would say Collins doesn't want anybody questioning him. It's your opinion and I respect it but for some reason I'm not getting the same thing your getting from reading the article. It could be like Brian said maybe he doesn't want the guy or whoever was going to make that monta trade or it could be what your saying we just don't know to what extent so I'm not going to jump the gun.
These reports are predictable and really not that alarming to me. I care much less about who's making the decisions than I do about the decisions that are made. This is a funny league, everyone had a boner over that guy Hammond in Milwaukee because he was doing such a super job building that team and setting them up with cap space, then he goes out and signs Maggette and Drew Gooden to huge deals, completely fucks their cap and then compounds it with a series of dumb trades to the point where they probably won't be able to keep a young piece.
Wait and see. That's my only advice right now.
History says it matters whose making the decisions. History says when a coach is in control - it ain't good
The fact that sixers fans forget that is amazing
ugh, did i really write whose instead of who's
Damn I'm tired...ah well, stuff happens...i probably should of known better
Anyway, my bad mood and all histrionics aside, there's definitely good news here.
No matter who winds up being the GM, no matter who's making the personnel decisions, we're going to know pretty quickly what direction they're taking the team in. We won't have to wait long.
Lou is going to opt out of his deal. Hawes is a free agent. The draft is coming up. If this was all happening in December, we'd have to wait six months for the dust to settle. Right now, there's no way to hide the intentions. Big decisions have to be made, by whoever is making them, and we're going to have our answers soon.
If you look back, this team hasn't made a trade to improve in any way in years. The last one was probably the Korver deal, which was made to clear cap space. Every move since then has either been shuffling deck chairs (Reggie Evans for Jason Kapono) or actively trying to put a worse team on the floor, and fucking themselves against the cap (Dalembert/Hawes+Noc).
So if Collins is going to Larry Brown this roster, we'll know pretty soon. If there's a long-term plan, because Collins is going to step into the front office when he's done coaching and he wants to build something that's going to last, we'll know that pretty soon as well. If the new owners don't like the story line of Collins calling all the shots, we'll probably know that as well.
60% of me still thinks Spencer Hawes will be back in Philly, in which case I'm shutting this blog down and following a new sport anyway.
That's a very depressing way to look at it. It's like a defendant telling himself that he's looking forward to his verdict no matter what the result is because he wants to stop worrying about his fate and accept his life even if it could mean spending the rest of his life in prison or as a free man.
Yeah, it's the uncertainty that drives me nuts, honestly. I've always been that way.
Gosixers I think you maybe jumping the gun just a lil bit on this situation hell even some of the stuff you was saying yesterday Derek said he wouldn't go that far and he's connected. I think we should we should just wait until everything comes out before we dive right into the situation. Right now we know idea how much or how little or to what extent Collins wants control of decisions regarding the team.
Couldn't be more with you on this Brian. Great post. Having a functional organization with everyone involved on the same page and with a plan in place is essential to success.
The real question is how much will this GM search process impact movement this offseason.
Rich wrote the post. I agree with him, as well.
Heh, can't believe i missed that. It makes sense though. Rich is one of the two posters that are closest to my reasoning in general (the other being tk76).
Great post Rich :). And don't worry Brian you usualy have great posts as well :).
Heh, can't believe i missed that. It makes sense though. Rich is one of the two posters that are closest to my reasoning in general (the other being tk76).
Great post Rich :). And don't worry Brian you usualy have great posts as well :).
Has anyone read, "The Jordan Rules"? Didn't a similar thing happen in Chicago with Collins? From my recollection he was fired for constantly bickering with the GM over the direction of the team and the inevitable power-struggle that resulted.
Yes. I'd have to read it again, but from what I remember he got fired just because he was too emotional in coaching the team. Not positive though, I read it a couple of years ago.
My serious question is, "How the hell is Budenholzer not a head coach yet?" Could he be Thibs 2.0?
Heh, this makes me want to cry, from an insider piece on trades that should happen:
2. The Memphis Grizzlies trade F Rudy Gay and the No. 25 pick to the Philadelphia 76ers for F Andre Iguodala and the No. 15 pick.
So the Sixers would need to drop 10 spots in the draft in order to take on the extra $23M of Gay's contract and probably take a dip on the floor, best case tread water.
I get that Rudy Gay scores a somewhat acceptably efficient 20 points and does nothing else, but do national people watch the playoffs?
I'm not saying it's right or the end-all for evaluating players, but don't people get judged heavily by what they do in the playoffs? Like, it's human nature, right? Remember how Iguodala took a hit when Prince locked him down in '08? How is this any different? Gay had trouble scoring on Nick Young and Randy Foye in the playoffs. I usually think the guy who wrote this has pretty good stuff, too.
I'm not opposed to a deal centered around Iguodala/Gay, but I wouldn't do it that way.
The incentive for Memphis is that they get some financial relief. If anything, I'd hold out for Gay and their pick for Iguodala.
if the trading up for drummond isnt a smoke screen, one of the spots i thought he would go wont happen
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/19345360
I was checking out the box score from game one of the Finals, and a lot of other playoff games and something struck me when I saw Durant and LBJ both scored 30 points. That just doesn't happen against the Sixers.
This season, including the playoffs, only 1 wing scored 30 on the Sixers. LeBron had 41 in that game where Iguodala got poked in the eye and had to leave.
They gave up eight 30-point games total on the season: Bosh (30), D. Williams (34), Tony Parker (37), D. Rose (35), B. Jennings (33, this was back-to-back), Josh Smith (34), LeBron (41) and David West (32).
I believe the Josh Smith game was the only win in the group.
New ESPN Mock draft has no change for the sixers
Project Drummond to the kings which rumors say won't happen
Last years raw but super upside darling PJ3 has slipped to 22
Barnes who was a top 3 projection last year is at 7
Sullinger who might have gone #1 last year is at 10
Going back to school hardly ever helps - when will they learn
Holy crap, they have Jones down to #22? That's amazing.
Sullinger was #1? Really? If I were a GM I would never draft an Ohio State player with a top 5 pick.
The NBA just sent me an email about the original dream team w/ a team picture. Completely forgot they took Christian Laettner instead of Shaq.
Wasn't Laettner considered to be one of the greatest college basketball players of all time? I don't blame them, he was taken in right out of college.
Yeah, believe it was the summer before both shaq and laettner went to the NBA. I guess it's not as bad as drafting the college player of the year and ignoring the physical freak who's probably going to be a better pro.
I honestly didn't think Chris Mullen was a good player. He kind of sucked when I was a little kid
That makes no sense unless you just didn't have a very good understanding of the game when you were a kid. Mullen didn't make the original "Dream Team" by accident. He was a hell of a player for a good stretch.
Makes sense if he was a kid in like 1999, at the tail end of his career.
True.
yup.
ROFL
David Stern asked Jim Rome if he still beats his wife.
I just heard that myself. That was waaaaay below the belt for Stern to say that.
I wonder what vet the sixers are going to trade the 15th pick for? I think Doug will look for a wing to provide TOUGHNESS and GRIT like he hoped for with Noc.
Heh. Hopefully his contract will be just as bad as Nocioni's when they traded for him. Remember when Collins started Nocioni in a game this season? Hilarious.
And it pretty much worked out as terribly as everyone expected it to...
I'm gonna be pretty disappointed if they trade that pick, especially if a high risk/high reward guy is on the board. The philosophy of drafting adequate role players in the mid first every year is a safe strategy, but also when that will never get them out of where they've been for a decade. Just take the risk and who knows, you might get lucky one of these years...
Rich, a great writeup. I thought saving salary for Memphis is enough to sacrafice in an Iggy for Gay trade. It is the age difference and more importantly, Iggy playing again this summer that wants me to trade Iggy now.
I thought Gay was a solid player besides his scoring ability and would love to know his defensive numbers. I don't look at Gay as a ball stopper like Melo.
How do you guys think our organization looks at Lou and Thad? Aren't they veterans with all their time in the league and playoff experience. Even Jrue has experience under his belt. I don't get moving a pick when free agency can supply experienced players.
And finally, is there a Boston type scenerio for our organization this summer? Can a Stoudemire be had for Brand and our #1 and a [E.Gordon, K.Martin,O.J.Mayo] be gotten for Thad, Turner and a pick if needed and could they win the east.
Stoudemire,[veteran]
A.Iguadala,[2nd rounder]
L.Allen, Vucevic
K.Martin, L.Williams
J.Holiday, [veteran]
If Collins feels Lou,Jrue and Lavoy can compete right now against the best and Vuce will get better can a Ferry pull out the moves to finish this roster?
Are you suggesting we trade FOR Amare AND acquire Kevin Martin/Eric Gordon?
Oh my. johnrosz is going to have a heart attack. In no way are these moves good for the present or future of the Sixers. There is no BOS scenario for us. We don't have the chips to trade for a 'KG,' we don't have the money to sign a 'Ray Allen,' and we currently don't have a 'Paul Pierce.'
No I wouldn't do this but since we ran with the talking to and drafting Drummond I was trying to look at the trading the pick for a veteran angle.
I was just wondering if our organization thinks they can make a big splash, that's all.
If we give them Brand in exchange for Amare, they have to give us their 1st round pick every other year for the next 10 years.
New Grizz owner probably not to be Cuban like even if their business (riches) model was in the same type of industry
From an article about him
Subscribe to HoopsHype rumors
Sources close to the deal say the notoriously media shy Pera will maintain a low profile in the immediate future while the NBA begins the process. But that won’t stop Grizzlies fans from conducting their own “informal due diligence”
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/philadelphia-general-manager-search-awareness-doug-collins-coaches-230548521--nba.html#more-23249
Kelly Dwyer on the situation. He's always a great read.
Rich, that is an interesting take. Who do you think Harris can confide in and get an opnion from when it comes to hiring a new g.m. ? Can he talk to Thorn without Collins' input and respect what Thorn's input is, in looking for a guy that is taking his job?
And hiring B.King to be the nets g.m. doesn't give me the utmost confidence in Thorn's opinion.
"Brilliant" head coach. I laugh. Another kid taken in, bedazzled by Doug's legend construction, torrents of words.
Ferry, don't cross the Schuylkill. Dukies don't cut it around here.
Comic relief: "The story on Tuesday was correct. We are looking for somebody to replace me." - gentleman Rod Thorn
I found this quote pretty funny from a Bob Ford article:
"You can also figure that Andre Iguodala will be traded, and that part is for sure. The Sixers don't feel Iguodala and Evan Turner are compatible on the court, and Turner's late-season and postseason development sealed that deal. Turner has some terrible holes to his game, but he is one of the few players on the team with a true competitive fire. He is Collins' type of player, in other words."
First time I've heard anyone say Turner is a Collins' favorite.
I'd actually see an Iguodala trade as Collins not being the guy making the final call on personnel decisions. I'd bet serious money that if Collins is deciding who stays, who goes between Iguodala and Turner because they can't play together, Turner's packing his bags. Of course, this ignores the fact that Turner really can't play with anyone, because he's just a bad player.
Man, you are very firm about this Turner position. You can't see him getting better?
I could see him producing more if you surrounded him with four scrubs and made the entire offense about him. His counting stats would be good, but he'd kill your team with his inefficiency. I don't really see him suddenly morphing into a truly useful player, because I don't think he'll ever except the role that he'd have to play to be a productive member of a winning team.
What role would that be? A shooter?
He deferred quite frequently last year.
In fact, people criticized him for not being aggressive enough his rookie year
Here's the link to that article.
And as for Turner's late-season and postseason development. He was benched in the late season because he blew, and then he was basically the worst player in the entire playoffs in total, and somehow worse than that outside of maybe one or two games.
I totally agree about the Iguodala/Collins thing. If Doug is the guy who wants to win now like most think he is, he isn't trying to get rid of Dre.
If you're reading between the lines with what some of the more connected folks have been saying, sounds like there's some things going on between Doug and Iggy...OR, Doug thinks Iggy is a ticking time bomb with the knee and ankle issues (that's my best guess)
Either way, seems like this whole thing with Doug having more influence increases the likelihood of an Iggy trade.
Strikes me as odd as well, I'd have thought ET would be out the door for the first mediocre offer DC could get.
Who knows, it'll be an interesting offseason.
Whichever way you put it trading Iguodala is definitely not a short term move. If Collins is an advocate of such a trade than it's virtually impossible that he is thinking short term only.
Also if he is keeping Turner than he definitely is not guided only by his emotions either. There is no way that Doug prefers Turner over Iguodala after everything that we've seen and heard about their relationship. Not to mention that Iguodala is and will most likely always be a better player than Turner.
Whichever way you put it trading Iguodala is definitely not a short term move.
Absolutely false, there are tons of ways to 'put it' to make it a short term move.
Iguodala for Rudy Gay is a short term move for instance, it does nothing to build a better core for the future.
How is Gay for Iguodala a short term move? Whether he is part of a future core or not, he has a higher likelihood to be just that because of age if nothing else. Iguodala has 3-4 years left at best at this rate. His recent health issues are worrisome going forward. And the Sixers are extremely unlikely to become a serious championship contender in that window.
Hmm...Iguodalas injuries are a concern, but Rudy Gay is the epitome of health, fine you're right, trading for a guy closer to the end of his career than the beginning just like Iguodala when you are building around Jrue Holiday who is still on his rookie deal makes total sense...
Short Term thinking is short term thinking, long term thinking adds assets...Rudy Gay isn't an asset he's a guy who keeps the sixers around the same place they are now with no upside.
Oh joy
But see - then when they go 500 and lose in the first round Doug Collins will get praise because he did it with a different roster. It's a very important distinction to show how Doug Collins is better than Mo Cheeks, or Tony DIielo - they were better rosters
Which is true
Dileo and Cheeks never had a full season of Elton Brand - Doug Collins had two - so his roster was more talented, not less
But hey - different is different so Doug Collins is an uber coach who coaches so much better than Mo cheeks and TOny Dielo combined with his career resume of long coaching stays and championship that he should be handed the keys to the kingdom
Are you really serious with this Collins' roster was more talented than Cheeks/DiLeo's because he had Elton Brand?
So, Cheeks/DiLeo having Sam Dalembert AND Andre Miller instead of Spencer Hawes and an inexperienced, really young Jrue Holiday were not better teams? Because Collins had Elton Brand?
You've got to be bullshitting just to suit your agenda because I find it hard to believe you actually believe that nonsense.
Iguodala suffered one major injury in his careeer that caused him to miss 15 games in the 2010/2011 season...up until that point he had missed six games, TOTAL, in the previous six seasons.
He missed a few games this year, partially because of a poke in the high, that's not exactly a recurring type injury, he plays through injuries, and oh yeah, probably had the best season of his career.
But sure, his injuries are a concern, whereas those 28 games that Rudy Gay missed the same season Iguodala missed aren't a concern at all.
I definitely think the sixers should trade for an over paid guy from a team he doesn't even want to be on that's better when he's injured. They should give up their best player for Memphis' not best player...sure
i mean, rudy gay is 25. big difference between almost 26 and almost 29 in the nba. rudy gay is entering his prime, based on the typical nba career arc, whereas igoudala is beginning to arc downward
Depends on how you look at it, but I don't think the things iguodala does well (passing, defense) decline as fast as you think they're going to.
Rudy Gay will never defend or pass as well as Andre Iguodala
All he does is score more
Hence why people are against it
i get what you're saying about passing and defense and i think in general you may be right-but with igoudala in particular, i worry about general decline because athleticism is such a big part of his game. he excels in transition, for example-that's the best part of his offensive game, passing and scoring. he's a very intelligent player too, and i don't expect him to drop off a cliff by any means. but i think his best years are probably behind him.
Well, iguodala works out pretty heavily in the off season, he's not shown to be injury prone (contrary to what others might want to say) so the injuries won't age him prematurely, and it's not like his athleticism goes away, his iq doesn't go away either, maybe he'll slow down a bit speed wise, but he's a smart enough basketball player to copmensate.
I'll take Andre Iguodala for the life of HIS contract + a year extra over Rudy Gay and believe that Iguodala will be the OVERALL better player for all 3 seasons.
That being said, swapping one for the other doesn't change the fact that the sixers wouldn't be any closer to winning anything, they just would have traded for a WORSE contract...and screwed themselves even longer
I thought I saw somewhere that Derek said that with Thorn out of the picture it was almost a certainty that AI9 gets traded.
yep you saw correctly...i think others are assuming far too much
It's all assumption here, we all do it. Iguodala should be traded for the long term health of the sixers.
Sadly what I think will happen is that it'll be a one for one type player, probably who can average 20 points per game (or has in the past so that makes them valuable some people)
The player won't be as good all around as Iguodala but he'll score points and that'll make people happy
That's what I assume
Here's what I believe regarding the trade of Iguodala.
I don't believe whether or not he's traded is an indication of Collins in control or not. I personally think (like I said to mmj) that trading him is the right thing for the organization (and him).
What will be telling will be the return in an Iguodala trade. If a longer contract is taken to obtain an extra first round draft pick in a the top 7 or so, then I don't know that Collins has the power he wants, but if he's traded for another veteran of similar, but lesser perhaps, all around ability, but stronger ability in one specific area (scoring), I'll say that Collins has the power and that the franchise is doomed.
Still a vital off season for the sixers as I see it but not just in determining the make up, but to give us 'normal folk' insight into who is really running the show.
I have a hunch it'll be a direction I'm displeased with
So you think that Collins' only agenda is to get a "veteran" in exchange for Iguodala?
I do believe he has a lot of power within the organization (Derek hinted at this multiple times). I wouldn't say, though, that this means he would only want to go after a veteran. He may be interested in, or at least talked into trying to trade up in the draft for a big. It's not out of the realm of possibility.
I believe Collins (and all coaches) don't think long term, and they shouldn't, they should be worried about winning right now, it's a coach's job to win...which is why giving him roster building authority (autonomy) is a bad idea...and the fact that the sixers have already endured that once.
I agree with the article Dwyer wrote, Collins functions on emotionality, which is a bad way to do things like make trades...
I believe Collins is more interested in filling what he perceives as the teams weakness more immediately for his own coaching resume than taking a project big man who needs time to develop.
he won't let the project big man develop for more than a couple weeks of the regular season
That's what I believe yes
(All the big men in the 2012 draft are projects)
i do agree with you that trading igoudala now is likely in the best interests of the team
It's interesting how you think that Collins would rather improve his coaching resume than his "being a part of an organization that won a title" resume. I can see absolutely no proof about this in him.
I see a guy who desperately wants to win, whatever his role in the organization. I see a guy who would sacrifice a hand for a championship. Questioning his ability to run a team is fine and legitimate, but i cannot understand questioning his desire to win a championship in any kind of role really.
What's interesting is that you either can't read or misinterpret what I say purposely, either way, you obviously buy Collins BS and ignore his history.
I didn't question his desire to win a championship, did I? Show me where I said that in what you replied to.
here's a question for you smart guy.
Does he care about helping the sixers win a championship or does he only care about winning a championship that he coached them to, because those are entirely different issues, and you, like many here, fail to see the difference it seems, and you ignore the history of teams that rebuild, the fate of the rebuilding coach and that the only team collins ever coached that went on to win titles, only did so after he was fired, which most people believe is why they were able to win a title, because Collins was sent away.
Let me make it as simple as possible. I believe he cares about being a part of an organization that won a championship.
Collins is paving his way to be part of the Sixers organization after his tenure as a coach. Whether he manages to win a championship as a coach or as a consultant is not that important.
Collins is far from perfect, but you are trying to find something where there is really nothing here.
Actually, there's something really there - and you're ignoring it. Go read the Jordan Rules
Do you think Doug Collins PRIVATELY (not publicly where he has to put on his non ego maniac face) cares that the bulls won a title AFTER they fired him? Do you think he takes joy in the fact that after he was fired they won 6 titles under a much better coach.
You're ignoring his history - you think a guy in his late 60s who is a grandfather has radically undergone a perosnality shift
He just spent a lot of time on TV so he learned how to lie in front of the camera better.
Thers' NOTHING there to support your argument - but for some reason that doesn't matter
There's nothing in doug collins history to indicate any of the information you seem to think is fact...nothing
"Most people" believe that the Bulls won because Collins was fired? How do you know that? In my opinion, it had more to do with Michael Jordan. But I guess you have some survey results that prove your statement.
Who was the coach hired after Phil Collins?
Do you think he had anything to do with it?
Sigh
Doug Collins
And the history speaks for itself - pushed out in 2 places - in under three years - with reports of his desperate ego and power grab in Chicago documented
Though ignored here by many because they want to be ostriches
A lot of people here (and partially myself included) are speaking in terms of what they want to have happen.
The question is, how short are DC's short term goals? If he has the backing of ownership to try to build a contender, would he still go for a Rudy Gay signing over something more sensible? History may say yes, but I'm not sure if he was ever held to such high esteem in any of the other teams he worked with.
I don't see how trading Andre Iguodala helps you build a contender. It's a lateral move that weakens your best team strength, defense...at best. That's how I see it. That's not how you build a championship team...you keep your good assets you don't swap em out for other assets, even if you believe Gay overall is as good as Iguodala, it's lateral...only if you think Rudy Gay is vastly better overall (not just points) than Andre Iguodala is it a trade that makes sense, and I believe anyone who thinks Rudy Gay is vastly better overall than Andre Iguodala is high.
A move I disapprove of but at least does give one the illusion of contending right now would be using an amnesty on Elton Brand and using that to obtain Al Jefferson or Pau Gasol without giving up more than a second round pick. That actually improves your roster. It's not lateral. It's not smart in my opinion. It's just not lateral, it is an improvement over Brand as I think he's basically done as an every day player.
But - see - I don't think they're 'close' to contending to for a title, they haven't been close since 2001 (and were they really that close, I mean they made the finals, but they were bitch slapped and did anyone believe that that roster could really be tweaked to win a title?) but they have made move after move - with different ownership and GM's for sure - that indicate they are deluded enough to think they are close.
This team isn't close to making the eastern conference finals, not if all other teams are healthy, and swapping out Rudy Gay for Andre Iguodala doesn't make them closer in my estimation, it makes them worse in my estimation, so if you want to win, it's a dumb trade in my estimation...and no one can say that it's a better trade and make that nothing more than their estimation...it's just that it seems my estimation needs to be more attacked for what isn't actually said :)
This team has needed to repour it's foundation for over a decade, and it hasn't, and if you give Doug Collins the reins, it won't...because his age and temperament (historical facts demonstrate that, and I don't buy the new spots, it doesn't happen, not really, publicly is much different...that whole text thing that players joke about...how he texts them all the time...I don't find it funny, I find it an indication of his egomania and control issues...why can't it wait doug? ) don't indicate a man who is willing to endure the steps needed to to repour the foundation.
Jrue Holiday starter
Lavoy Allen, bench (I guess)
Andre Iguodala
That's all the sixers have in my estimation that is worth being part of the foundation of a title team, and Iguodalas career arc is in the wrong place compared to the other two (so is Rudy Gay's in my opinion) so you trade him for pieces that help build the foundation and fit the arc better (younger guys, draft picks, projects that need time to grow, like Jrue needs, but Doug won't have the patience for)
As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing left to say about this issue on either side until things happen...I'm going to watch the finals and enjoy em, because they're good basketball, and I'm going to envy the luck of the oklahoma city thunder and wish eddie jordan coached the sixers THAT year instead :)
"so you trade him for pieces that help build the foundation and fit the arc better (younger guys, draft picks, projects that need time to grow, like Jrue needs, but Doug won't have the patience for)"
That's the point I was making, except that I was suggesting if DC has full support of the FO he may not look for the short-term "gain" by acquiring someone like Rudy Gay (to confirm, I think getting Gay on this team in place of Iguodala would make us worse).
I wasn't suggesting that trading Iguodala would automatically allow us to build a contender. He's a crucial piece to this puzzle, and should only be traded if the trade makes the team better in the long-run.
"As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing left to say about this issue on either side until things happen..."
could've fooled all of us with the keystrokes you've worn out in two days......
Completely beside the point. You said the Bulls won because Collins was fired.
And I believe they did
Neither you nor I can prove it either way.
They fired Doug Collins
They hired Phil Jackson
They won many many titles
Those are the facts - interpret them as you want - that's opinion - my opinion is that they wouldn't have won titles if Collins kept the job...I've never been very impressed with Collins.
Fact is, I believe a better coach would have taken the sixers past the celtics in the series this year because they would put the best players on the court.
Go back to game threads in the playoffs against the celtics, every game there's at least one or two moves (minimum) that almost everyone is questioning, a bad coaching move that may have swung the game.
I don't really think that he was at fault against the Celtics all that much. Two of those games were blowouts the Sixers had little chance in. If you want to pick on something, it's that he kept sticking with Hawes starting and Lavoy off the bench, but I'm not sure that swings a game. They played the Celtics pretty much just as well as the Heat did, and probably better defensively. In all three games they won, the Sixers were much better down the stretch. It seemed like a relatively evenly coached series.
To me, they just couldn't score against Boston. I think that has a lot more to do with the players and the roster makeup. Like, he probably played Turner too much in Game 7, but who does he go to more? Lou, who was 2-9? Jodie, 1-4? Jrue shot 5-17, too. It's easy to say he should have done this, he should have done that, but he was coaching a team with major holes. There was no correct answer often for who he was supposed to play amongst the starters, much less the bench.
To me, Collins' major weakness through his time with the Sixers was a lack of crunch-time offense. In the Celtics series, the Sixers seemed better in that category against a team that thrives in that aspect. He's not perfect, far from it, but a coach that has his team prepared to defend every night is about 80 % of the way there already. Even with their poor shooting in Game 7, Rondo jumpers had to do the Sixers in. Those are exactly the shots I wanted them to give up.
Anecdotal evidence for the pro-Collins defense team: The two fans on the street in Chicago who yelled to Collins while he was walking with Curry, "We still love you, Doug!" (reportedly reported to a reporter by Doug Collins allegedly and purportedly) :)
documented: fancy word for 'written by some boob' (often erroneously)
So most of what you write is documented?
I pass. You have all the answers about Collins and all matters heaven and earth according to your screeching sanskrit. Don't want to disturb your lofty condition.
Sigh, I expected more of you, must be one of your bad dementia days.
I mean, you're the one who defined the word documented, not me...
Bringing back the old "I expected more of you" attempted dig, huh? Get a new act.
My definition stands on its own. Your question remains insinuatingly insulting per usual.
Stick it.
Anyone who uses accusations of dementia to derogate another is poor and needy beyond material.
Meanwhile, back at the Sixers farm...
For grins and giggles, brian will like the last part the most, I'm sure
Brian (Hoboken)
Iggy Trade Scenario: Iggy/Thad for Josh Smith/Marvin or Iggy/Thad for Joe Johnson. Sixers either get the big man they need or the superstar they need. Hawks mix up their dysfunctional core.
John Hollinger
The Smith scenarios make more sense to me if the Sixers amnesty Brand. From Atlanta's side, however, they would probably want a signed-and-traded Hawes coming back rather than Young.
Ha!
So Josh Smith and Marvin for Andre and Hawes - you're in right?
Oh, absolutely. Solves our 'big' problem with another tweener, plus we get Marvin, who was drafted really high. He and Turner can have a competition for worst high lottery mistake and most useless wing in the league.
See, I knew you'd be on board
plus you wouldn't have to shut down the blog :)
As much as I value Hollinger's opinion over the rest of the espn "analysts", the fact that he even responded to that makes me want to vomit.
He didn't comment on it so much but he said he could 'see' Iguodala for Gay making sense...my problem with Hollinger is that he is one of those 'numbers' guys who lets the numbers drive him even when the numbers don't make sense...he's a slave to his own numbers and I believe ignores most other information (statistical and other that should be used)
Something about every player in the draft being "the fifth pick" after Anthony Davis...i.e. he doesn't think it matters who you take 2nd
For all of the numbers he looks at, you would think that he wouldn't have overlooked his prized PER stat when comparing the two players (and that Iguodala's career PER is higher than Gay's) :)
I really don't like the excuse making for Rod Thorn. The guy has done absolutely nothing in his time here that was good. I don't blame Doug Collins for that. By which I mean surely Doug Collins could have not stood in the way enough to stop Rod Thorn from doing anything good. I also do not share the admiration for Adrian Woj as a writer. In my opinion he goes out of his way to be provocative and and borderline fabricate a lot of stuff.
Who has made excuses for Thorn?
Thorn is irrelevant (in my opinion) to whether or not Doug Collins in his long illustrious coaching career is qualified to build a championship contending roster
Doug Collins is old
Doug collins coaching career has spanned 'decades'
Doug Collins has only coached six full nba seasons
I'm sorry - six full nba seasons as a head coach - that's it - i don't care how spread apart they are - but he hasn't proven that he's a quality coach with longevity or the ability to coach a championship team
Rod Thorn mock him if you will built a roster for the new jersey nets that went to the nba finals
in fact, in recent history the nets have been to the nba finals more than the sixers
Thursday video: The Sixers working out shooter Terrence Ross, as well as sound bites from Ross and the team's Courtney Witte:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuvDpEM9y3Y
Can't remember the last sixer (who played legitimate minutes) with that kind of stroke. Jeff Hornicek(spelling)? Those were sad days. sad sad days.
I would love to trade up for a big, then retain #15 for Ross.
Cobbling together from a bunch of reports that might or might not be reliable it sounds like there are a lot of high picks 'available' but the costs are astronomical.
The bobcats supposedly want the freaking world for the #2 pick (partially looking to trade it because they can't decide who to pick between their two favorite options - which I find kind of funny myself - you still have time to work em out)
Maybe as the draft gets closer, the asking prices come down.
It's all rumor and smoke now, but I don't even believe that right now Toronto would trade #8 and Calderon for Iguodala and #15
Sigh...I guess I'm not surprised. These drafts (and the whole pre-draft environment) take on a life of their own.
We'll just have to see how it all shakes out. Dre is a damn good player and is a guarantee. Teams have to be sable to see that or the sixers have to do a better job of selling his worth.
Playing devil's advocate
he's not a guy you build a team around, he's a #2 complimentary piece - a great all around player and defender - but he's not a gate draw or a super star
He's only got two years left on his contract and he's closer to 30 than 20
I'm not saying he's not vaulable - but these teams at the top of the draft are pretty far from contending...a lot of people seem willing to trade Iguodala to move up but won't take back a bad contract (contract, who the player is is irrelevant) to do so, which is the whole 'win now' mentality that I don't necessarily buy into.
If Toronto trades Calderon they need a point guard, if they swap picks - they won't be able to get the one they want :)
True.
I keep looking at him compared to Rudy Gay. Gay has 3 years left at:
$16.6 mil
$17.8 mil
$19.3 mil
Dre:
$14.7
$15.9
If the market for Gay is reportedly so "active", how can Dre's not be equal if not better? Of course that most likely does not include teams higher (in the draft) than GSW or SAC.
If the market for Gay is reportedly so "active", how can Dre's not be equal if not better?
Perception and Points
Rudy gay can score 20 points per game - Iguodala can not
Iguodala is seen as over paid - Gay is not
Are these things fair ways to compare two players? I don't tend to think so, but the world ain't fair.
At the same time, a meaningless all star appearance should help Iguodalas value. If they had won the division and people who voted for DPOY had a clue, he'd have even more value...perception.
Based on voting, look at how many people are seen as better defenders than Iguodala
"If the market for Gay is reportedly so "active", how can Dre's not be equal if not better?
Perception and Points
"
umm...age?
Easy. The big vanishing fundamental, shooting the basketball well. Gay does it.
Rudy Gay FG %- 45.5
Andre Iguodala FG %- 45.4
Rudy Gay 3PFG%- 31.2
Andre Iguodala 3PFG %- 39.4
Rudy gay 17.9 PPG
Andre Iguodala 15.3 PPG
See - Rudy gay is a better shooter :)
It's not like he even takes on a much higher scoring load to justify those lower percentages.
Oh, I'm not disagreeing, I'm just pointing out that people sometimes confuse good scoring (if you call what gay does good scoring) and good shooting
Kyle Korver - good shooter - not good 'scorer' (career ts% 57.6)
Lou Williams - good scorer - but not necessarily good shooter (career TS% 53.2)
If lou williams was normal sized - can you imagine how much cash he'd pull in?
Rudy Gay's Career TS% - 53.1%
Andre Iguodala's Career TS% - 55.4%
But hey, Rudy Gay gets a lot of points
Scoring a lot doesn't mean you shoot well
True again.
But that $19 mil in year three is a cap buster. And not an easy thing to trade away. That means a lot.
However I do agree with the perception around the league that Gay is better because he scores. Right/wrong. It is what it is.
It's a slam dunk (like a lot of Iggy's FGs). Cherrypicked numbers by two Iggy romancers.
Gay, the much better outside shooting stroke, and cherry numbers in comparison to your boy:
Career 3: Gay .347 Iggy .331
Career FT: Gay .771 Iggy .737
Open your eyes next time you watch.
Funny how it's ok for you to resort to name calling
Cherry picking, I do not think it means what you think it means...and I won't be bothered to engage you any more - thanks
Cherrypicking, that's a tough concept.
"I won't be bothered to engage you any more - thanks."
Suits me fine, but I don't believe it; you promised that before. And disappointed.
The simple career shooting numbers have your position in a corner, so you bow it. Moments before, you were having fun mocking.
Chump.
Well just one more time for the cheap seats.
You don't bow it - you bow out
And as for simple - you used the simple statistics, I used the more complete statistic - you call it simple probably for two reasons
A. You don't understand it
B. It disproves your point
And with that, that'll be game set and match (though I didn't know your father marcus posted here)
Figured your ego would boomerang some nonsense. You just can't help it.
You smoking crack if you think Rudy is better than Iguodala. I'm not say Rudy is trash but he's not worth the money he's getting and he only averages 2 to 3 points more than iggy. Iguodala is the revis of basketball.
Was talking outside shooting only, the big vanishing fundamental. Gay better than Iguodala at it.
The stats don't say that son.
Ha ha, cherrypicking last season's FG %. That's a new one. How about their career field goal percentages? You conveniently forgot that one. Yes, Gay probably has a better "outside shot." He didn't last year, not close mind you, but Iggy had a career year from three.
But that doesn't matter really when you don't take the right shots. GoSixers gave you career true shooting percentage, too. Basically, that means he is a better shooter over his career when you properly weight threes and free throws. Not like I'd expect you to get that, especially when it shows that Gay is objectively not really a better shooter than Iguodala, mostly because Iguodala takes much better shots than Gay.
Yeah, Gay's outside shot looks pretty and all, but I'd rather have the guy that gets more of those dunks and doesn't settle all the time for a ton of tough shots that don't go in all that much like Gay does. Getting dunks is not a bad thing, you know. Like, NBA teams don't (or shouldn't) say, "Yeah, but all he does are those stupid dunks! I'd rather have the guy who takes all those tough fadeaways!" Dunks are thought of as a negative.
I agree with you here, I think Doug would bring him in with the idea of cleaning up some of the direction in his offensive game. Not to go all "I watch the games" on everyone, but just on shooting ability...which is what Dollar Bill is talking about, Gay can shoot the basketball better than Iggy can. Whether or not he's an efficient scorer in his current situation doesn't really tell me if he can shoot a basketball or not. I'm not even on board with a Gay deal, but you guys are just silly if you're going to say he can't shoot.
Is anyone else interested in the sixers trying to acquire a late 1st rnd pick in order to select Quincy Miller? I was glad to hear they brought him in for a work out, he reminds me some of Kevin Durant in that he has a similar build and is a tall/long scoring 3. He obviously isn't remotely in Durant's league right now and probably never will be but I think he does have potential to be a good scorer and a solid rebounder, but I'm a sucker for high ceiling guys.
I think he may fall into the 2nd rd. Maybe not enough for the sixers, but enough where the can (gasp) buy a pick for cash?
His workouts have reportedly not been impressive.
I heard he wasn't very impressive at the combine but haven't read anything about his workouts with teams being bad. Also his measurements were actually better than I thought they would be especially his vert leaps.
30.5" no step
36" max
I'm just fascinated by his tools, to coin a baseball term.
I was actually referring to the combine. But I agree with you. He is real young, with great size. I would be happy to get him end rd1/early rd2.
I watched him at the combine too. Felt bad for the kid because he couldn't hit anything.
Yea that'll happen.
I was also wondering if Scott Drew is considered a good coach when it comes to developing players. The guy can recruit obviously but he got 2 top of the line recruits in pj3 and miller but neither were really able to hit their stride. I can't knock what he was able to do in the regular season and getting to the elite 8 is great, but there wasn't much progress made out of those 2 guys as the season(s) went on.
Another curious note from Hollinger's chat (see the last sentence below, about Collins/Iguodala relationship), wondering whether anyone knows what he's talking about? It's unlike Hollinger to just pull something out of his ass...
Joe (Philly)
Any chance philly tries to trade iggy to move up and get either beal or drummond?
John Hollinger (12:16 PM)
Iggy for a pick is extremely difficult to pull off without a large contract coming back to the Sixers, so I'd say it's highly unlikely. On the more general idea of an Iguodala trade -- they tried to last year (for Monta Ellis) and new owners shot it down (wisely I might add), and he and Collins have a pretty icy relationship, so I could definitely see that happening.
Ha. I'll happily take back any bad contract they want to unload. Where do I sign?
Would you take on Andray Blatche to get the #3 pick?
Would you take on Andray Blatche into cap space to get the #3 pick? (Harder to do)
In a heart beat.
I actually think Blathche could be salvaged with good coaching.
And you think Doug Collins with his long history of helping players mature is the coach to do that?
I'd do it too
Brian would vomit
I think Doug would be able to do it.
Salary wise: $7 mil, $7mil, $8 mil. I would happily bring that on for the #3 pick.
There are multiple ways to do it.
Easiest way is to trade Thad for blatche and #3 (might have to give up #15)
harder, more complicated, could fall apart in the mean time, is to agree in principle with washington to take the salary on with no return, but you have to wait until you amnesty brand...
However, the wizards probably won't do either deal
They can buy out rashard and use the amnesty on blatche - get rid of both - and keep the #3 pick - i was just curious if you'd do it :)
I wonder when you get cap room from the amnesty (if the sixers amnesty brand, and the wizards amnesty blatche, can the sixers make a 2 million dollar claim on blatche?)
I think Blatche is irredeemable, for what it's worth.
Not sure whether people were responding to a different thread but - just to clarify, I was specifically wondering why Hollinger would say that Collins and Iguodala have an "icy relationship".
Iggy is a weird dude, I think his relationships with a lot of people are probably categorized as icy. That's not to say he isn't a nice guy or anything, he seems it. Just not the warmest personality. Pretty much the polar opposite of Doug if you think about it.
I'm not sure why quiet and thoughtful is seen as 'icy' or 'distant' - I've never seen it as such. Overly gregarious people give me the willies, what the hell are they so happy about, why do they like everyone, not everyone is likeable, if everyone likes you you're doing something wrong in my opinion.
No one here will believe it but I'm often quiet, and when I am people always think i'm in a bad mood or something.
I never saw Iguodala as cold or distant, he's just thoughtful, he's less likely to stay something stupid that way...some coaches just want a guy to be something that isn't in his nature, and when they aren't they get all pissy about it.
I think it was Bobby Jones earlier this year telling a story about Collins during their playing days, he roomed with Doug on the road. Said that at night Doug could never sleep so he would walk up and down the hallways looking for people to talk to.
That sort of dovetails well with the 'texts us all the time' thing that the players were talking about this year, I personally found it kind of weird :)
most people aren't as misanthropic as you. no offense or anything
None taken, since you don't know anything about me really - people who know me enjoy my company contrary to the popular belief here - I'm just selective as to who actually knows me.
Yeah, this was actually pretty close to my thinking exactly. I figured Hollinger probably just isn't aware that's "who Iguodala is", and assumed from some interactions he's observed that they have a cold relationship. But just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I didn't hear about.
HOllinger isn't guessing, or wrong
damn it, meant to click something else and submit was hit instead, I meant to say I don't think on the end of that. I don't think he would throw something out there if he was just guessing, it's possible that he's privvy to information we don't get from maybe an agent or something
draft express updated their mock, has the sixers taking perry jones
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2012/
Derek - We'd like to have a word with you
i don't understand why the reaction to the gay rumor(wow, that sounds more interesting than it is) is so strongly negative
he will be 26 when next season starts. igoudala will be 29(or turning 29, forget where his birthday falls). while igoudala has been a better player, its likely that his performance will deteriorate over the next couple years whereas its likely that gay will be at his peak over the next coule years. gay is purely a scorer-he's not the passer that igoudala is, but the sixers have enough passers-they need finishers. gay is not a team centerpiece by any stretch, but he's certainly not a terrible piece to have. igoudala's isn't a team centerpiece either. obviously, igoudala's defense will be missed. but it will be missed regardless of who comes back!my understanding is that gay is a decent defender, and with holiday and turner, the sixers have two plus defenders on the perimeter.
basically, if you recognize that they are likely to trade igoudala, you have to start thinking about the options. my p[reference is that they use him to move up[ in the draft. but if that doesn't work out, a rudy gay deal may turn out to be the best return out there. rather get him than gasol, i think, purely due to age
One thing I really don't like about Gay is the $19 Mil he is due in the 3rd and final year of his contract (unless there are options the team has). Too big a number for him.
And yet no one calls Rudy Gay overpaid but every month it seems someone points out (nationally) that Iguodala is over paid.
Perceptoin is ridiculous
people call rudy gay overpaid all the time. whenever he is brought up here that is mentioned.
obviously, this is a sixers blog so conversation about rudy gay is less frequent than about igoudala
but that's just an absurd statement. gay is perceived as overpaid at least as much as igoudala
What does the word nationally mean to you?
well nobody said nationally in this exchange...nationally i'd say gay is panned as overpaid routinely as well. certainly the perception that he is overpaid is the one that i have gleaded from reading about him in national sources
No one said nationally in this exchange? Please double check what I wrote and you replied to.
Until today I had never read or heard of Rudy Gay panned nationally - in reference to the grizz having to over pay to keep him because he wanted to be there - that's the first time.
Yet I've heard nationally how Andre Iguodala was over paid the moment he signed his contract.
Perceptoin is that Rudy Gay is better than Andre Iguodala
He isn't
I'm sure there are 'those' who will be super excited if this swap occurs, some of them might even claim to be sixers fans...
Jesus - how obnoxious would the grizz be defensively with allen and Iguodala on the same team?
you wrote and i replied to this:
And yet no one calls Rudy Gay overpaid but every month it seems someone points out (nationally) that Iguodala is over paid.
Perceptoin is ridiculous
it does not say nationally. it does say perceptoin
Parenthesis can be confusing
lol!ooooops.
anyway-my point stands as i think the national perceptions are the same, as i said.
Actually - I realized that I put the parenthesis probably in the wrong place, honest...I could see how you thought I wasn't referring to Rudy Gay nationally, and like I said, until the report today that Memphis over paid because he didn't want to stay in Memphis I had not read the term over paid in relation to him anywhere but here :)
eh, if you were a grizzlies fan you would probably notice it a lot more, cause you'd be as sensitive to it as you are as a sixers fan to portrayals of igoudala as overpaid, ya know what i mean?
The greater sixer fanbase (not just the dedicated blog junkies) seem to think Iguodala is over paid - listen to the sports radio to get the pulse of the average fan
Many here think he's over paid too - they ahve for years :)
right, i'm just saying that you are far more tuned in to opinion about igoudala..y'know, seeing as he's your favorite player on your favorite team and all
yeah i was typping an addendum about that when you posted this, ha. you are right about that
the contract is the most objectionable thing about rudy gay, and it is much more objectionable than igoudala's. i was overlooking that crucial point-apologies. still, though, you're gonna have to take back a lot more in salaries for igoudala.
my preference is draft pick plus expirings, my favorite rumor at the moment is the toronto pick/calderon/davis...but i don't think rudy gay would be a total disaster. if that's the type of deal they end up doing-either by choice or by necessity-(meaning a trade for a high salaried veteranish player who will hopefully help win over the next 3 years or so) i'm not sure who else is gonna be out there and would be preferable
Really Iggy and Gay as shooters, you can look at their fg% at different shot locations at hoopdata :
http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Rudy%20Gay
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Andre%20Iguodala
The percentages are actually closer than I thought they would be- especially with iggy's improved three pt shooting last season. But Iggy forgot how to shoot fts and settles a lot more for jumpers than earlier in his career.
Sixers predraft story (with video): Washington's Terrence Ross is taking his best shot:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/sports/sixers/ross-takes-his-best-shot/article_cf08de74-139d-59ed-ad12-00bd0a79f816.html
Tom, with all the front office stuff going on, and the high price on moving up in the draft, do you feel they will stand pat and draft where they are at?
All the 2nd round bigs they brought in seem to be upperclassman, hopefully they find another guy that can contribute right away.
Listening to ESPN Radio on the ride home do their pregame Ric Bucher did a couple nba 'hits' around the league, one sort of impacts the sixers rumor mill.
The Lakers are shopping Pau Gasol, targeting someone to get in Kevin Durants 'way' as it were...Bucher used 'GM's around the league' as his source who believed there were three guys that the Lakers could get for Pau Gasol:
If I'm the Lakers, my first choice is Andre Iguodala for a combination of age, injury history (lack thereof compared to the others) and contribution without needing to score, but man will he excite Lakers fans with his dunks. This is an ideal situation for Iguodala in my opinion too.
Now, I don't particularly like the idea of Pau Gasol coming to the Sixers myself, for a variety of reasons, and I know others may have a different opinion on it, but there are quite a lot of reports that say two things:
So in that vein I came up with a trade that works (according to the ESPN trade machine) salary wise and I think is a fair deal for all thre teams involved, assuming the sixers aren't going to leverage Iguodala to move up in the draft and start a complete rebuild.
Brian will also like this trade because Evan Turner will no longer be on the roster
LA - Iguodala/Turner
HOU - Gasol
PHI - Martin/Lowry
Now I wouldn't favor this trade, don't even know if it's a good trade - maybe they could flip lowry or something - I know that most people who are ok with martin on the sixers want him with iguodala, but I think this is the kind of deal the sixers probably would make, and that Martin and Lowry are also assets to make other moves.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7q7ok2o
How do you see the Sixers' backcourt working out following this trade? Would you start Jrue, Lowry, and Martin? Would Martin play the 3? Jrue at the 2?
The main prize in that trade for the Sixers is Lowry, but point guard isn't really one of the Sixers' holes. I don't like trades where your end goal is possibly flipping the guy you got - Lowry.
Didn't say I liked that trade, just that it seemed fair to all involved talent wise, didn't think beyond that. I know it makes the sixers crowded, but what if the plan is farther.
I don't like trades where the sixers move laterally - and I want to see Iguodala traded in a trade that says 'we're rebuilding' but I'm also realistic that the sixers think they can contend sooner.
I'd also rather make that trade than Iguodala for Rudy Gay :)
It was a mental exercise that's all :) Not saying I'd make the deal - just that it works and fits the 'scaffolding' that varoius reports have reported :)
There was a rumor recently where Toronto liked Lowry so maybe you swap Lowry for E.Davis and a pick. Now you have gotten K.Martin, E.Davis and a pick for Iggy, not a bad return.
Yeah, I would do that
I'd just offer Turner for Lowry, see if Houston bites. Jrue, Lowry, Iguodala works for me.
Did you see the reports that Lowry wants out of Houston if they bring back Dragic? Don't see why he is so concerned about a backup point guard. Will his fragile ego be ok with Jrue on the team?
In any case, I think Lowry is a very solid player, and I am impressed with the progression of his 3pt shot. He makes more sense next to Iguodala and Jrue than next to Jrue and Martin in my opinion. And GoSixers, yeah if we can get that 4 team trade in place, I'm happy to flip Lowry. Just don't want to be stuck with an "asset" that is redundant on our roster and may not be as easy to move for something useful as originally thought :)
Having 'too many assets' isn't a problem. It's a big picture kind of thing, when a team is looking to build towards something, it's not just about on the court it's about positioning yourself. Hence why I favor the amnesty on Brand even if they don't sign anyone, they don't HAVE to use the money but they position themselves better for possible scenarios...which might or might not happen, but if they do happen during the season and you haven't amnesty'd brand you might not get it done because of thee different aspects
I get that, and I agree with your logic. I guess it comes down to whether you think Lowry or Iguodala is more of an asset. There seems to be interest in both right now. Lowry is younger, so I guess you could hold onto him longer, if you really are viewing him more of an asset than looking at how he works on your basketball team.
On the other hand, if you can put together Iguodala, Jrue, and Lowry, you have a very solid defensive backcourt with good shooting. The only problem that remains is does it allow Jrue to become the "true point guard" who does the majority of the ball-handling, which Collins (and I) want from him?
Does Collins really want that from Jrue? If he does, he has a funny way of showing it.
He said it after the season ended, that he thinks they need to move toward a more traditional point guard run offense, with Jrue playing that role.
That's interesting
Who was it who decided someone else shoudl be the point forward last season instead of focusing on whether or not Jrue could develop into a more traditional point?
Iguodala is an asset that gets you two assets
I believe that the sixers are down on Iguodala and will sell him for less than he's worth rather than keep him
I htink the trade I suggest fits various reports about various teams and works for each teams vision of what they want
I am not in favor of it - I just think it fits the parameters that we've been made aware of :)
But you're flipping the guy you just got :)
Seriously though, to me, a trade gets you assets be they on or off the court, I didn't have a sepcific goal in mind with Lowry, but from reading all those reports you get the sense that lots of teams need a point and lots of teams are interested in Lowry, so why not be the team that gets the benefit. You don't even have to flip him right away if you don't want, take your time, let the teams build up their need.
Then there's this made up trade from a hoopsworld chat
Chris
I was just wondering if a trade like this would work…
Kings receive Iggy and #15
Sixers receive Tyreke and #5
I am not saying I'm in favor of this trade, but to me this is the KIND of Iguodala trade that should be made, one that commits to trying to find the assets to build a winner...OKC didn't build smartly - they got lucky to be in the lottery the right years and have the balls go their way - the sixers won the #2 pick in what is turning out to be a pretty crappy draft...luck
would you draft drummond at 5?, assuming Robinson is gone
I don't know enough to say, and I don't know that that's the trade I'd make without tons more research, but I know it's the idea of trade I'm in favor of (and have been in favor of for a few years)...the sixers aren't going to get free agents to do what happened in Miami, it's Philadelphia, there's no lure, there's no nightlife, there's no tax benefit (and honestly, there should be adjustments in CBA's that make that fact that certain states don't have an income tax irrelevant, it's an unfair advantage that IS controllable as opposed to weather/night life stuff)...the only way to build a winner is to get lucky...no one wants to hear it, but look at the team playing the heat...bad and lucky in the right years...and traded their 'star' for a pick (it was Jeff Green) in the lottery...they knew what they had to do.
Ok - done rambling
I would probably lean towards taking a deal like this. Tyreke can be a bit of a head case but at the very least he solves on big problem for the sixers. He can get his own shot, and he can score. Who knows, a change of scenery close to home may do him some good.
You get the #5 pick and are in the running for Drummond or best player available. I would do this.
Honestly...they may actually prefer Turner as a PG.
Whoops found a new 'writer made up trade' that will make brian weep
Amar’e Stoudemire, a second-round pick, and cash
For
Elton Brand
Durant is an absolute joy to watch. When you see a human being with such a rare combination of incredible skill and god-given talent, he exemplifies for me how great this game can be. Watching him reminds me of when I was a kid and the older folks would talk about the play Doc made the night before, or how people really thought he could fly.
And yet - he should have just fouled out of the game - that was obviously an offensive foul - he should not be in the last 3:20 of the game - part of what battier brings
I love Battier but I would prefer a "no call" on that.
Sorry - a fouls a foul
If situations were reversed - you think the foul is called on Durant for blocking Battier?
That was a CLEAR charge - position - intiation of contact - and it was called earlier in the game on almost exactly the same thing.
That's part of what's wrong in the NBA, if it wasn't durant - it's probably a charge.
Amnesty Brand and offer Hibbert the Philly max?
And watch Indiana match
Do they really want to max him out? Fair enough.
I think that Indiana will match any offer to Roy Hibbert yes, based on various reports, and that a 'philly max' is less than the pacers can offer him.
Is there still that 'exclusive' period where only the 'home team' can negotiate with an RFA - i call it the billy king over pay time
Hahaha I like that phrase - "Billy King over pay time." Idol hands are the devil's workshop.
Sometimes I idly wonder about idolatry while worshiping at the alter of my idle idol. (sorry couldn't resist,day off, bill paying morning, things happen)
To me in the flaw of flaws that was Billy King, negotiating against himself with restricted free agents was close if not the biggest issue
I would love to but Indiana has plenty of money and they are on record saying they will absolutely not let him go. McGee however could be had as looking at Denver cap situation, I don't think they could match a "big" offer. Now do the sixers like him, and how much is he really worth? I don't know that. But if I can't get a big I like in the draft, I would send him over an offer sheet.
Ha yeah typo, meant idle. But it kind of works the other way too. The devil probably loves "idol hands."
Every time you type it i'm reminded of that god awful movie starting a very young Seth Green Jessica Alba and Elden Hanson...I paid to see that, in the theater for gods sake.
Sure sounds like Iggy is goner from everything you read...this time for real though. Good player, but finally the gross over (and under) valuation of his services will be a thing of the past. I don't really understand why anyone would really want him to remain with this team, there's no realistic scenario that allows the Sixers to contend within the remaining life of his contract, might as well maximize your returns on him while his demand around the league seems to be high.
I've always felt that some have clung to him the way that kids cling to their favorite indie band that they think nobody has ever heard of. I don't see any positives that can come from hanging onto him. He's a serious candidate to opt out at the end of this year (nobody ever seems to talk about that), in favor of a long term deal with a contender...probably his final long term, large pay day in the league. Either he has a good year and opts out for the long term deal, or gets injured and picks up his option for next season.
Neither of those scenarios are appealing to me, he went out on a high note if you ask me, game 6 in the CHI series was a great final chapter to his career in Philly.
Don't think anyone is clinging to him, just would rather see him traded to get younger, not Rudy Gay, not a veteran. If you can center a Drummond trade around him, by all means.
I also really agree with Brian on the Collins/Iggy dynamic. If he is running the show, I find it hard to believe he'd trade him at all, unless they got back a Gasol or maybe Gay type guy, if Collins believes he can coach up Gay on the defensive end.
we have people right here thinking the best approach is to keep Iggy and Jrue and ditch everyone else.
I personally rather get a total rebuild, which would mean Dre for a young piece like Drummond, if that was possible. That would mean just keeping Jrue, Lavoy, and maybe Voose. Maybe Turner too if you can't get anything of value for him.
If they are going to try and keep the best part of the team and get better incrementally through free agency (which I wouldn't advocate due to the long shot of getting an impact player to sign here), I'd keep Dre, Jrue, Thad (but I would be open to moving him because the playoffs were a tad discouraging) and the two rookie bigs. I think those guys are the two best players on the team by far though.
I think it's just person, not really sure anyone agreed with me. That's still what I would do. I think the odds of getting a true superstar to sign here are pretty slim, also can't stomach a half-decade of completely sucking and praying for the right ping pong ball in the right year, so if I'm making the calls, I'm keeping the two guys who I think make this team work, and getting rid of everyone else for pieces who fit around those two guys. That's my goal, at least, my method would involve always retaining the flexibility to make a move for a legit superstar should one become available and actually want to come Philly.
I would prefer this route also. With [Milsap,Josh Smith, A.Jefferson] all out there next summer for money only and no assets than draft the best player[Ross?] and target one of them with Brands' money.
If Milsap or Jefferson is the target maybe draft a guy like Melo to compliment them. Rich, I believe the free agents will follow the money when we throw it at them and our team situation isn't that bad, is it.
Iggy and his unselfish ways would sure help when it comes to adding a scorer here. Add one of those bigs and get lucky in this draft, along with our young guys growth and we may become a 50 win team with the defensive system we have now.
Harden for #2?? Not buying it...
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/19352135/charlotte-looking-to-deal-no-2-pick
Sorry if the link doesn't show up.
Don't buy it either, shamelss speculation and rumor often intermingle...the thunder don't have to make a decision this summmer fully...they have at least until next off season when the issues become pressing
Yeah, I don't really see this as a big problem for the Thunder. Worst case, they give another huge contract out to Harden and a big one to Ibaka and they're in the luxury tax. The big luxury tax penalties don't kick in until your third year as a payer, which would be five years from now, when these guys are 27-28. They'll still be tradeable assets at that point. Bite the bullet and lock them down, if the time comes when you need to break it up, do it then. And if you can't afford to pay the luxury tax when your young team is in the Finals and you sell out every game, then you really shouldn't own an NBA team.
Like I've said, we'll see how serious the new owner really is (and how good presti is) when they have to deal with actual issues as opposed to just picking lottery picks :) (I wonder, who does the draft research for OKC - presti gets all the credit but is he the one doing the scouting? ) They're a great team, of young mostly cheap guys, it's when guys stop being cheap that you see the skills of a GM and committment of an owner. If Bennet is one of the 'never pay the tax' guys - the thunder run won't last long.
PS - Someone else has a 'I give up' barrier for the summer
I swear if we trade Iguodala for an undersized 2 guard that didn't start in college I quit.
I believe the undersized 2 guard they're referred to is Dion Waters (waiters?)
What, they'd trade him to move up for Waiters?
I'm still in the "I'll believe it when I see it," camp as far as trading Iguodala goes. We get the same reports every summer of his imminent departure. And if Collins is really calling the shots, I find it highly unlikely he's going to make a trade that makes the team markedly worse in the short term.
Yeah I know your feelings about how Collins feels about Iguodala, but I disagree, I believe the icy situation Collins wants him gone type...which also leads me to believe he wants Elton Brand on the roster for one more season for reasons having nothing to do with basketball ability.
Every year we hear, but last year the framework of a deal was agreed upon just vetoed by new owners (meaning if Snider hadn't been selling - the deal would have gone through and Brian would have had 66 games of Monta Ellis superstar to enjoy?) - every summer it seems like it gets closer, the next step is actually moving him.
I believe they'll move him
I believe they 'believe' in Evan Turner and have convinced themselves that it's Iguodala's fault, not Turners, that Turner sucks and that Turner is best suited as a starting 3, which means you can get an undersized shooting guard, and you have to get one who can score a lot of points.
A lot of the rumours are rumours built on top of rumors, like the fact that Toronto wants a veteran wing player, or the lakers want a shut down wing...
If a team wants a 'wing' player, reportedly, the three names you hear are Deng, Iguodala, and Pierce
Of the three, i believe Iguodala is most likely to be jettisoned by his team for the wrong reasons with the wrong trade.
I would not give Iguodala up without obtaining a top 5 pick PLUS a player
Period
Kings deal discussed would work for me....Dre and #15 for Tyreke and #5. Done.
If I recall correctly (cause I posted it) that was a 'fan created' deal in a chat, not something reported anywhere...I should try and clarify those things better in the future...dont' wanna create a rumor like that time clippers trading for Iverson became a 'fact' 30 minutes after a caller suggested it on a san diego sports radio show (I just happened to be listening on the way home - i heard the caller suggest it, i wanted to see how the game of telephone worked and by the time i got home the realgm forum was going nuts about how the sixers were going to trade iverson to the clippers...it was hysterical, and entirely predictable :) )
Oh I realize that. We are all either making up deals or reporting a rumored deal read or proposed somewhere.
Ok
However, I do like to distinguish between 'fan made up' deals and 'sources report' deals, while neither have much credibilty - fan made up deals have none
Like my trade last night - no credibility
Besides, from reading a hoopsworld chat - the lakers wouldn't do that, but they'd trade Gasol to get lowry, beasley and scola :)
Thanks for pointing out that Collins is not a moron or a self-serving egomaniac on a power grab.
Oh, but you have provoked another rant by GoSixers.... I take it back.
I was of this opinion too.
Obviously I wouldn't think of trading Iguodala for Waiters, but he was Syracuse's best player, even if he didn't start. It was just by design that he'd come in and give them a huge lift. Seemed like a very good defender, but he also played that zone, so it can be hard to tell.
That would give them a LAL type salary
Yep, it's not cheap to put a legit contender on the floor consistently. Of course, they'll have maybe an extra 11 home games this year to line their pockets, and you'd have to assume they're the favorites to come out of the West for as long as they keep this core together, or close to it.
Seriously - I mean who can even claim to be able to contend with the thunder in the forseeable future.
Dallas (even with Williams), Lakers, Spurs, they're all on the wrong side of their careers while the thunder kids are still headed towards their peak.
The clippers maybe? But VDN is still their coach and DTS is still their owner so it's unlikely they'll do it.
Memphis, do they have upside (even if they don't trade Rudy Gay)?
Just can't see any team in the west that really can claim they'll be getting better as the Thunder improve (which is scary in itself, the Thunder players are still getting better)
Dear Magic Johnson
You had some crappy ass games in your career too, but like they said on the radio today, 20 years later, people only remember the good stuff, so how about laying off Russell Westbrook for having a really off night - you douche - go be the face of your first place baseball team please
It can vary depending on where Howard and Deron land.
That depends on how much you (over) value Howard...I don't think Deron Williams and Dwight Howard and the castoffs that they'd have with him after Dirk leaves (sooner rather than later) will put up much of a fight...the Thunder are uniquely qualifed to dominate for a long while due to the age / arc of their 4 best players, if the owner agrees to pay them.
Their sixth man would be the second best, or even best possibly, player on the sixers and many other teams...
I honestly think Westbrook is going to want to be dealt at some point. Not for any reason other than I just get the feeling that he will want to be "the guy" in the near future(as opposed to being behind Durant). I could be totally wrong of course as I don't follow the team, but I just get that vibe from him.
Otherwise...the will roll.
That's always a possibility - but anyone who watches the thunder play games will realize that Russell Westbrook isn't 'the man' - he doesn't have 'the man' game...his ego may think it but his game doesn't reflect it.
I honestly think he gets some 'halo effect' by the fact that he and durant are maturing together.
Without westbrook durant would still be sick
Without Durant - how good would westbrook and his poor decision making be seen at this time?
Jamal Crawford has opted out in Portland
He scores points
Terrence Ross shares Crawford's gunning ability without adding another superfluous ball-handler or defensive turnstile. I'm not advocating building through the draft versus winning now by adding veterans, but just pointing out his skill-set being a dime a dozen.
Do you think that the Sixers do not need to add scoring?
Even at the expense of other skills?
Jamal Crawford is trash, my question doesn't pertain to him specifically.
The Kings are reportedly leaning towards Barnes, because he is more NBA ready and their FO has very little job security. They are going into win now mode, whatever that is in Sacramento.
With that in mind, how about trading Iguodala to the Kings? He fits perfectly with their team.
Iguodala for #5 (Drummond), Thornton and Salmons. I'd prefer to do this without Salmons, but i am not sure the Kings will bite if they can't unload his contract. Basically the Sixers plug both well documented holes with this single trade. They get the athletic talented big man in Drummond and Thornton who fits nicely between Jrue and Turner. Thornton is far from a perfect solution and is slightly overpaid but i think he can do well in Philly.
What do you guys think? Do you hate Salmons so much to not even consider this?
Would rather see Garcia in the deal. He's an expiring deal with either Salmons or Thornton. Prefer not taking over Salmons and Thornton's contracts. I think SAC will also want the 15 pick in a deal. If so, they have the 7th pick in the 2nd round. I'd want that.
The "would you" trade of the day:
Brand and next year's #1 for Okafor/Ariza/#10
You add defense on the interior and the wing and 2 scorers, some combination of Rivers/Waiters/Ross/PJones/TJones
Holiday
Turner/rookie
Iguodala/Ariza
Young/Allen/rookie
Okafor/Vucevic
It depends on subsequent moves and/or the protection of the pick.
I don't see why Philly would give up a first round pick unless it were something like Top 20 protected the first year, Top 15 protected the second, and after that, would turn into a couple of second round picks or something. Even then, they're already relieving the Hornets of $20M for 2013-2014, and are taking a definite cap hit of $20M for each of the next two seasons. That's a substantial investment for the #10 pick, one that I don't think the new ownership would go for.
Personally, I don't think that the 10th pick is worth inhibiting the 76ers as free agency players for two years. For that, the deal has to be for a top-shelf prospect like Robinson or Drummond. #10 at best would be... Leonard? Henson? Sullinger?
Meant as reply to CM.
Good subject, Like others have said, I can see why Doug wants control of the roster, he's closest to the team and, I'm sure that he believes he knows what's best, but, NO, I just don't want to go down that road again.
When you research Sixer's history, you don't have to go back too far to see this same scenario played out. Now, a decade later, we're seeing the sequel, with Doug Collins playing Larry Brown's role. What we saw in the original was a hall-of-fame coach, who, because of previous success both here and at other stops, gained total control of the franchise. What came after was a series of trades, predicated on short term goals, which turned into an unmitigated disasters, and left the team in distress. But the worst part of, "Give Larry the keys and let him do his thing", came after he left. Because Larry had usurped all the power from GM's job description, the role was being he filled by an under qualified person who proved to be in way over his head. Consequently, when Brown up and left us for a better situation, things went from bad to worse, much worse.
Personally, I see a lot of similarities between Brown and Collins: both are older coaches nearing the end of the line and looking for the quick fix, both are very emotional and somewhat unstable, both are capable of making impulsive decisions in the spur of the moment, including quitting the team during a down period. After analyzing it, I don't want to see history repeat itself, I believe it's best to keep the status quo for both job descriptions and hire the best qualified GM candidate available.
As a final thought, if I had Josh Harris' ear, I would implore him to call Arte Moreno the owner of the L.A. Angels and get his opinion on which way to go. You see, a few years back Arte was in the exact same situation as Josh is in now, and he decided to let Mike Scioscia call the shots. Well as a big time Angel's fan, I'm here to tell you that it was a total failure. Arte has blown an unbelievable amount on free agent bust, and I'm talking about cutting players and eating contracts. Likewise, trading players who have gone on to star on other teams. Finally, after last season Arte had to admit his mistake and hire a real GM who has been given full authority to do his thing, and things are going much better. There's a reason why these two positions have coexisted forever, let's hope Josh doesn't think he's smart enough to reinvent the wheel.
For those interested a sort of 'summary' of the various rumors out there for picks
http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-saturday-which-picks-are-available
Some interesting options in this article. Using Draftxpress's mock as a gauge these are 2 moves I would like to see happen;
1] trade our pick for Boston's 2 picks, select F.Melo and A.Nicholson, a defensive center to pair with Vuce and the best shooting big in the draft. A stretch p.f. is needed here for J.T.I. to succeed.
2] trade our 2 second rounders for #28 from Okl. City and draft either D.Lamb or J.Jenkins to replace Meeks.
Elton can stay and be a backup center and Iggy can finish his contract here and possibly reup if this group has success.
N.Vucevic, E.Brand, F.Melo
A.Nicholson, [Thad,Lavoy]
A.Iguadala,E.Turner
E.Turner, D.Lamb
J.Holliday, L.Williams
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20120617_Inside_the_Sixers___Sixers_need_to_sign_free_agent_Kris_Humphries.html
Man, that guy is 100% idiot.
There's an article on philly.com that based on the headline takes a serious look at why barkley wouldn't be a good GM for the sixers...I was shocked that anyone took that seriously.
They have a 'stay or go' poll for each player - 65% of the voters (about 6000) want lou to stay
I just love the logic. Overpaying for Kris Humphries is the only way for this team to make improvements which aren't incremental. And I'm not even adding the part about overpaying him, Mitchell says in his piece he's going to be overpaid.
It did seem kind of odd, the sixers shouldn't overpay for him but he's going to be overpaid - and the sixers should sign him.
It's hard to play in the NBA when your fake marriage is exposed and TMZ is following you
Is there not a single guy in Philadelphia capable of writing a column every now and then without a job? How can this guy be employed? Seriously, this guy is either insane, paid to write completely clueless articles or lives in a different dimension.
I mean he has not written a single sensible article ever since he got hired. And to think people complained about Fagan...
I don't really expect much from most newspaper columnists. It's a dying industry, not just in terms of being made obsolete but in terms of what it was built as...the news is no longer news, it's entertainment, it's clicks and page views, it's comments more important than content.
Wait, now I sound like a commercial for that new show on HBO
John Mitchell is hands down the worst I've ever read covering the Sixers
Brian, your game recaps blow all these writers away. You should apply for the job.
Doesn't keeping Iggy here help bring a guy like Milsap or Josh Smith here next summer and shouldn't our organization think about it like that. I just watched game 7 again and Iggy played his ass off.
Iguodala can (and might?) opt out next off season.
Guys like Milsap / Josh Smith even with Andre Iguodala do not make the sixers title contenders
I don't expect a superstar here so guys a tier below would excite me if they commit to coming here. If a Josh Smith was put in our defensive scheme it wouldn't be pretty but we could lock up any team in a 7 game series.
I think this teams' identity was shown in these playoffs and expanding on that could get them to the finals. Do you believe Iggy would opt out of 16 million?
I believe some players opt out to have more long term security yes...if he opts out of 16 million for more long term security I wouldn't be surprised.
I disagree with you that anything the playoffs showed that this was a team that could get to the finals as currently constructed with a tweak here or there. The playoffs did nothing to change my belief in the long term success of this team without a few big changes and maybe some team looking to dump a superstar (ala the Grizzlies and Pau Gasol)
I believe Memphis's run last season helped forge a style of play for them. Getting into people physically and getting their 2 bigs touches worked for them and getting Gay back sort of threw that out of sorts.
Our perimeter defense allowed us to compete and rather than get away from that to add a scorer I would rather improve upon that with better post defense. If we replace Elton with Josh Smith and Spencer with an active big or even Lavoy don't you think a 10 to 15 win increase is possible?
I don't want to wait for a franchise altering move and not see improvement on what is here already. I know a lot of people feel differently on that. But Ferry may be able to tweak our current roster and maybe he and Collins can pull it off.
We seem to be getting into a good spot financially but moves like locking Thad and Lou up for 15 million combined may change my optimism some.
Sorry, not sure how you can compare Memphis to the sixers, Memphis has two big men of quality, the sixers have zero.
If we replace Elton with Josh Smith and Spencer with an active big or even Lavoy don't you think a 10 to 15 win increase is possible?
No, I don't.
I wasn't comparing the two teams but the fact Memphis found what worked for them and our team, in spite of Roses injury, found success with locking up on the perimeter.
I also believe it is very possible that Iguodala will opt out at the end f the season. And after all that he has gone through over his years in Philly i don't expect him to sign back with the Sixers.
This is one of the reasons why it might be smart to get something for him while you can.
The irony is that we talk about making our franchise attractive to free agents yet we also need our own guys to want to stay. Do you think this playoff run helps in that regard with Iggy?
And the coaching stability and a Ferry like hire may help in that regard also.
The coaching stability issue is part of the problem.
Personally, I don't believe Iguodala opting in or out will be a problem for the sixers, it will be a different franchises issue.
Looking back at our coach harping on making the "safe" pass all year makes me wonder if Iggy's penchant for making the fancy play a lot this season was his way of snubbing his nose Collins's way.
I think he makes fancy passes when he thinks he has the lane..I think his court vision and passing ability will be missed as much as his defending ability next season.
Especially as no one else on the roster has shown even close to the kind of court vision he has
ET can make some fancy passes, they just don't always end up in the hands of a guy in the same colored uniform
I really hope that was a joke, cause it cracked me up on this crappy ass day...
At this point, I'd like it to be July 15th so we had a vision of what their vision was
a joke
Thank goodness, my sense of humor isn't completely broken yet :)
At least the NBA finals don't stink :)
Hoopshype has ranked the free agents for this off season, with no regard for restricted or unrestricted status.
They rank Lou Williams 9th
http://hoopshype.com/free_agent_rankings.htm
You know, I get the feeling they may be able to add George Hill and Courtney Lee for the same amount of money it would take to bring Lou and Meeks back. I hope they do.
Replacing Williams and Meeks with Hill and Lee is just rearranging deck chairs, IMO.
Go big or sit on the money.
Well
Hill is better than Lou
Lee is better than Jodie
It's an improvement over who the original players were, but it doesn't help the primary issues...which to me are the front court.
I do not share the opinion that Hill is a better player than Lou.
Lou is a one dimensional player, he does one thing only and hurts as much as he helps, when his shot isn't falling he's useless.
George Hill contributes even if he isn't scoring, Lou doesn't.
I think George Hill is a better player than Lou because Lou is a one dimensional ball hog, obvoiusly you don't - that's fine...
To me, it's adding a more efficient scoring option off the bench, who's also a better defender with better size.
And instead of a three-point specialist who shoots average from three and can't defend, you get a good sized SG who can defend and hit the three.
My guess is Lou + Meeks is probably going to be about $8.5M/year. Might be able to get those guys for a combined 7 or so, w/ lower yearly raises. Though I'm not sure if Indy would overpay to keep George Hill at this point.
If it's either or, I take the or. And I think both of those guys could probably be had for reasonable, movable contracts.
What is your basis for saying that Meeks can't defend? Seemed like he was a solid defender this year.
He tries, and he's fine against bad offensive players I guess, but he gets exposed for being a step slow and small against moderately good offensive players. He might be average for a SG, maybe a hair below. Saying he can't defend probably isn't fair. Lee's much better, as is Hill.
Eh, I'll say it-he can't defend-one on one at least. His hustle is admirable-although there were times this year where I wanted to scream "JODIE-WE GET IT!YOU GIVE 110%!now stop spazzing and play smart d." The only justification for Jodie Meeks being part of an 8man NBA rotation is his plus effort. Collins clearly is enamored of it. Jodie's not a dumb guy, and he knows where his bread his butter...so he is verrrry demonstrative with his 'hustle."
He is winning to watch because he is so obviously trying as hard as he can...until you realize he's so busy trying hard that he's continuing to body up his man 27 feet from the hoop even though his man can blow by him off the dribble at will. He's able to do a passable impersonation of an average defender because he takes coach's word as gospel and buys into the schemes, executes team defense-and the team's defense, particularly its perimeter defense, was extremely good. But let's not kid ourselves-he's only average to the extent that you can hide him. When the other team attacks him he almost invariably gets exposed-that's why his minutes fell off a cliff in the playoffs
I know you've decided that you despise Evan Turner's game Brian, and that's your perogative...I hate endless argument so we'll just let the proof be in the pudding...but you must admit he is a very good defender, and has the potential to be elite. If you could combine Jodie Meeks' "coachibility" on defense with Evan Turner's raw tools and competitive drive, you would have one of the better perimeter defenders in the league. I think that's one area where ET improved markedly this year, although he still missed rotations or otherwise got caught not playing the scheme far too often. Igoudala's commented on tutoring him into an NBA defender, I think after game 3 vs Chi...pretty cool quote
I feel that saying Hill is a more efficient scorer than Williams is a bit too black & white. They've played vastly different roles during their careers, with Williams facing a different level of attention than Hill. In my observation, Hill has never been considered a "primary" option who has had to face defenses that prepare for him. Conversely, over the past couple years we've heard several opposing coaches refer to Williams as a point of emphasis in their defensive gameplanning.
That being said, I'd prefer to let Williams move on considering the price that he will likely fetch. I'd like to see them take Darius Johnson-Odom in the 2nd round to replace Lou as a scoring combo guard off the bench.
So maybe Lou might have passed more with all that focus on him you'd think other players would be open?
I expect most teams when preparing for the sixers, the most important thing was stopping Louis Williams
Like them both. Especially Hill. He would be a great replacement for Lou.
Steve Kyler: GM notes... Magic made no offers to Gms this weekend... Danny Ferry to 76ers looks close... David Griffin to the Clippers has legs
Kyler works for Hoopsworld
http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_post/2012/06/15/overheard-sixers-ceo-adam-aron-amtrak/
so that fan-suggested trade target who would ruin team chemistry TO-style...is that Dwight or is it DCousins?
Bobcats with the budget no one who anyone had heard of hire...that doesnt' really well if you're thinking (like I had hoped) they'd consider taking on an Iguodala to stabilize their roster.
Perhaps MJ lost a bet...
I think it was Chad Ford who reported that Sullinger has been "red flagged" for medical reasons. Could he slip to the second round now?
@DraftExpress
J.J. Redick's back was red-flagged in 2006. He then responded by going out and getting a DUI. He still got drafted 11th
He will still be drafted in the lottery. He's polished offensively and isn't a run and jump guy who relies on his athleticism. In his DX interview he admitted he "needs to find other way to score," which is an eerily similar pre-draft sequence to Turner. Athleticism exposed, starts being tagged as "crafty", and then can't handle the athleticism present in the league.
And played in the "powerhouse" Big Ten.
However, it would be hard to pass on Sullinger if he was on the board at #15. You really can't expect much more than a solid role player at #15, and that would be Sullinger's floor.
Brian talked about M.Gasol recently and how he must be good defensively , in spite of playing next to Z.Randolph, for Memphis to be such a good defensive team.
Sullinger may fall under that same category, a good positional defender and smart in spite of limited athletism because Ohio St. has been very good during his stay.
The back issue would make me reluctant to trade up for him, but I'd be all over him at #15.
He will probably fall to the Spurs in the 2nd round. (:
Get the trade machine pumping with those Raptors & Kings. From Chad Ford:
One of the biggest challenges in projecting the draft is trying to get a handle on who is exactly drafting where.
Sources continue to insist that the Charlotte Bobcats (2), Sacramento Kings (5), Portland Trail Blazers (6, 11) and Toronto Raptors (8) are all still open to moving the pick. Some of those trades could be with each other, but from what I can gather, none of the four teams I just mentioned are sold with the players that are available to them. In the case of the Bobcats, the team is looking to turn a high pick into multiple assets.
The Raptors and Kings, as we've mentioned previously, are looking for veterans to anchor an already young roster. The Blazers? From what I can gather, they're open to anything and everything.
B.Beal is the "hot" name today and it seems a given he and Davis are in the top 4. The 5th pick would be my target for the sixers with either Drummond or Robinson the target.
Gosixers made a good point the other day about Iggy opting out next season. Why would any bad team trade a top 8 pick with the possibility of losing him.
He may only get traded to a good team for a player already in the league. Maybe the only way to move up is using future picks and either Thad, Evan or capspace.
If Toronto swings a deal for Iggy, signs Nash and brings in the big kid from last year, I'm not sure they are a bad team.
I feel the same way about Sacramento and Golden State, especially Golden State, but he may not be willing to patiently wait the growing together period of those situations .
One of the reasons the raptors are seen as a potential trader of the #8 pick is due to the kid whose name I can't remember (or spell properly if I could remember). They already feel like they're adding a lottery pick (and the second best player in the draft) and would rather add some veteran talent to push them forward.
Whether or not Iguodala opts out, I think he's an upgrade (for the Raptors) over Jose Calderon, and no I'm not saying get Calderon to be the point guard, I'm saying Calderons contract expires next season. Couple that with Brand coming off the books at some point and you're looking at some serious room while giving the raptors a great player.
Personally, I wouldn't make the trade if it included #15, but something centered around #8 and Calderon and Iguodala I would explore.
Unless the sixers pop into, say, the top 4 or 5, I don't believe I'd include #15 in the trade
The Raptors kid is Valanciunas. One of the guys i really liked last year. I watched him a few days ago playing for Lithuania against my team Macedonia and he looked bigger than last year. He has clearly added some muscle. He used to be quite skinny. Skill-wise though he still suffers from the same problems like lack of defensive positioning (leaves his feet too often and doesn't have much of post game r a jump shot). He is still a great prospect and i think he can develop in an allstar type of center eventually, but he is still far from there. He won't help that much right away. The Reptors are delusional if they think getting Iguodala and Valanciunas will make them special next year. They will be better because of Iguodala but i can't see them both being part of the same winning team long term. I might be wrong of course...
I'm just reiterating what I've seen in reports...the Raptors already feel they're getting the second best player in the draft (if he were eligible) and that they are young enough, thus 8 is in play...
Oh you are absolutely right about the reports i am just having a hard time understanding their long term reasoning with this approach, especially considering Iguodala's ETO. Even though Iguodala will most likely end up as a better player than anyone the Raptors draft at #8.
They are right about getting the second best prospect this year though, this draft is extremely deep but lacks, high upside guys. Valanciunas is a high upside guy with a relatively higher floor than most guys of that type.
15th/Iguodala for 6th/Matthews makes sense to me. Portland would have a lot of suitors if Drummond were available. They could draft a guard and a center with their two first round picks. They also have Victor Claver coming from overseas and still really like Nolan Smith. With the 15th spot being fairly valuable this year I think this would be their best offer, especially if Andre assured them he would opt-in to his last contract year.
The problem with what you suggest is that according to the reports, Lillard is the best point guard in the draft, and won't make it past through 10, and the Blazers need a point guard.
Six might be too high for the kid, but if he's who you want...11 and 15 means the blazers miss on Lillard
PS - If Lillard is at 8, the Raptors might keep the pick and take the kid
I think the Blazers would be more interested in adding Marshall (likely available at 11th pick and maybe 15th) with a later pick than Lillard really early. They could run a good offense through Aldridge, Batum, and Iguodala with Marshall at the helm and Lillard projects as more of a scoring guard than distributor.
Marshall will struggle majorly on the next level. I wouldn't dare touch that kid. He's worse than Lou on defense and can shoot just a tad better than Turner, if that.
Does Batum play s.g. than? He is so long and skinny he may have issues fighting through screens guarding s.g.'s. Turner could be a good compliment to Batum at s.g. but would we get #11 and would that be enough?
If Toronto swings a deal for Iggy, signs Nash and brings in the big kid from last year, I'm not sure they are a bad team.
With the Kings entering the possible trade partners with their sudden interest to possibly trade the pick for a veteran, one has to wonder if they are the perfect trade partner.
Evans + Salmons + #5 for Iguodala + #15
Thornton + Salmons + #5 for Iguodala
Thornton + Garcia + #5 for Iguodala + #15
Garcia + Freddette + #5 for Iguodala
...
There are all kinds of intriguing possibilities with the Kings. Obviously this kind of move only makes sense if they are truly high on someone in the top 5 (and there are various reasons to believe they are high on the biggest boom/bust of the draft Drummond).
The Kings also have an early 2nd rounder. If we give up the 15, be nice to get that.
Evans + Salmons + #5 for Iguodala + #15(don't see Evans, Turner & Jrue)
Thornton + Salmons + #5 for Iguodala(too much contract)
Thornton + Garcia + #5 for Iguodala + #15(think about it but don't resign Lou and add 2nd rounder)
Garcia + Freddette + #5 for Iguodala(Why not. Make things interesting and free up money)
After watching the A.Moultrie video scouting report on draft express it is hard to see him as an option here, especially after the Collins/Spieghts dynamic.
He looks to dog it at times and shows bad body language alot. Our big options at #15 may be narrowing down as these workouts proceed and could lead our front office into action on the trade front.
He wants to go 10 to NO.
Well of course he does, the higher he goes, the more he gets paid.
I don't think I've seen a single mock draft that has projected him that high (or reliable mock draft at least)
He was projected around 15 for a while now, he may have slipped, he didn't fully participate in the combine (which is a mistake for a guy like him)
I don't think Moultrie is as lazy or bone-headed as Speights but they are similar as far as their stretches of being mentally checked out. Not a Collins pick. He's probably hoping Zeller or Rivers fall to him.
Moultre seems to be terrible defensively, especially off the ball. He's got a long way to go before any NBA coach trusts him enough to put him on the floor.
How does a 6'11" athletic big average less than a block a game?
Salmons' contract is bad - he's declining faster than it is. I'd only take it on if Drummond came with it.
In trades for Iguodala, don't look at the player on the court, that's not as important as the contract - at least that's how I do it. The sixers are getting worse by trading Iguodala, that's just a fact to me. It's about a longer view. Salmons is guaranteed the next two seasons and then has a buy out on the last season (pretty cheap too, 1 mil if he's waived before free agency starts in 2014)
If the sixers trade Andre Iguodala and get Drummond, it's unlikely that those two seasons will be anything but Drummond Jrue and Turner learning to play together anyway...then Salmons is gone.
Course, your mileage may vary, but that's how I look at these things :)
I'd give up any asset they have to get Drummond, he's far from a sure thing but his size/athletcism has a chance to be special - moreso than anything they've had on the roster since AI.
Oh, I'm not disagreeing or countering your evaluation of Drummond, I only know what I read about him, I'm just saying that Salmons contract is what is most important in the trade, not his on court play :)
And he only has two seasons left
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/sam_amick/06/18/nba.draft.kidd.gilchrist.beal.robinson/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a2
If Turner was in this draft where does he rank? And what pick or player would you trade him for? His cap number is going up each year and if choosing between him at 8 million or A.Rivers for 3 million doesn't it make sense to look into it?
He would be a 5th year senior, so probably somewhere down near Bernard James.
Probably in the same group being discussed for the no. 2.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Evan-Turner-1115/
Except that he'd be two years old, and thus his draft value would have slipped due to being in college longer and thus having more flaws exposed. Not to mention the fact that people question when a top 5 pick decides to go back to school...look at all the lottery guys who slipped this year just by going back to school
two years older, not old, sorry about that :)
Good one!! It seems he gives our coach angst and at times is high maintenance. If Collins get his wish and gains control you don't think he could be moved?
If you could trade Evan Turner for the #10 pick in the 2012 NBA draft, would you?
Easier decision than letting Hawes walk.
I would if M.Leonard was still on the board. It would give Jrue the athletic big to pair with.
Has Leonard moved up that high in the draft so far?
I think Brian is indicating he does it right now - not knowing who is available
I just saw on draftexpress he moved down from #12 to #16 but I doubt he is there for us and really doubt Zeller goes ahead of him.
People talk about Drummonds' upside but I like Leonards' also. And he can play both ends and is less of a bust candidate, in my opinion.
I don't share Brian's disdain of Evan. I still feel he can reach A.Miller type numbers when he was here. [16,7,7] but if we pass on getting a big in this draft the boat may have sailed.
From Chad Ford's mock 8.0:
Analysis: The Sixers might have a tough choice here between Jones, Sullinger and Arnett Moultrie.
Sullinger, meanwhile, would give the Sixers the starting-caliber replacement for Elton Brand if he can stay healthy, while Moultrie is a long, bouncy, athletic big man who could stretch the floor.
I almost want them to draft Sullinger just to read the draft recap Brian would write.
Interesting is that it's not much different than what he wrote mock 7 either :)
Harrison Barnes canceled a workout with the kings (#5), take that for what you will
Which Jones?
I'd have a tough choice between Perry Jones III and Sullinger.
IMO, they're a rung above Moultre and Terrance Jones.
I believe Ford is referring to Terrence Jones
Yep. Terrence Jones. Copy and pasting on my tablet is a pain in the ass so I missed have of the text.
http://basketball.realgm.com/article/221597/How_To_Identify_Prospects_Likely_To_Over/Under_Achieve
Mario Chalmers becoming the next Rajon Rondo.
...so if Miami actually does this, who becomes the next choke artist everybody hates on - Westbrook? DH12?
Westbrook definitely becomes the next "guy everybody irrationally beats on"
I don't know. I think people can see he has problems at times playing within the rhythm of a game, and he is still trying to figure out how he fits in next to Durant(in the sense of "I'm a super-star too" mentality he appears to have), but without him tonight, OKC loses by 15 don't they?
That being said, I do feel that Westbrook will not remain on the team for the long haul because I believe he feels he is a "#1" on a team. But I will be surprised if the bulk of the blame (irrational blame from the media/pundits) for OKC losing this series will be directed at Westbrook. I could be wrong of course.
I'm not sure Lebron won't take more of a beating than some seem to think...not one, not two, not three, yada yada yada. And he needed to go to Miami and get Wades help, and on and on.
It'll be interesting to watch, as a disinterested observer, it's a shame that the sixers wont be part of the discussion any time soon
Lebron is clearly he best player on the Heat. Anyone watching the games with a unbiased view would agree to that.
Last year it was debatable as to who the better player was, but I don't think the popular opinion will be that Lebron rode the coattails of Wade to get his ring.
To me, it's rather clear that Lebron is the best player in the league, and has been for years.
Durant might be the best scorer, but at one point, Allen Iverson was the best scorer, but he was never the best player.
I like Lebron, I think the decision thing was a mistake but not one he made on his own, he's a victim of the way he's been coddled since junior high, but on the court, I don't see how any one objective can say he's not one of the best players, ever.
That pass last night to wade off the offensive board, it was beautiful...
To me there's no debate in the 'who would you build your team around' if you had the first pick in a dispersal draft...not for the next 5 or so years...Lebron is far and away the best all around player in the league.
There seems to be a natural progression in the N.B.A. as far as winning a championship and Miami getting to the finals and losing last year allows for their time to win now whereas I expect Okl. City to cut down the nets next year.
Westbrook looks like the next Wade to me and you don't trade players that good.
Give me T.Jones out of the 3 players listed above. Heck, he is used to being singled out and yelled at by Calipari so he'll get used to Collins quickly.
I'd be surprised if OKC doesn't win at least 2 or 3 championships in the next 5 years.
Sean Bradley
Keith Van Horn
Evan Turner
Wow - what a trio
There are enough questions now about Moultrie's "motor" and Terrance Jones lack of a true position (SF/PF) that if I'm drafting at #15 and am looking for a presence down low, Melo should be the guy. Many on this site (myself included) are begging the sixers to trade up to the top 5 in the lottery to get Drummond. Nobody has the combination of athleticism and size that he has. And it is still a crap shoot as to whether he pans out to his monster size potential.
Melo is also gigantic (6'10.75" 255lbs w/o shoes), very athletic, capable of being a defensive presence from Day 1, and he will develop into a better offensive player over time. I don't want the sixers to pass on him at #15 if trading up isn't an option.
Well ESPN has Melo at 18, DX at 22
Personally, you draft the best player available, and like it or not, no one here (save for possibly derek, and not even him really) has access to as much information as the folk who work for NBA teams
I believe that as well. But I also believe centers can take longer to develop. Sammy Dalembert was raw as hell offensively, but he was big, athletic, and had enough potential to draft him in the first round (25ish area?). Was he the best available? I honestly don't remember. But at 15, I think he is worth the risk vs. the upside. Moultrie for all his athleticism and size doesn't block shots. Why? I don't know. Melo can do that right away.
I'm not opposed to Fab Melo, from what I've read, I do like him. I don't care much that he was academically ineligible, but I do worry if understanding English is something he's still working on, it's just an issue of adjusting to the NBA that the team won't be responsible for.
But, if he's projected in the 20s, maybe the sixers can parlay that then, if you're going to draft Melo, move down to 21/22 and give the celtics 15?
It's a calculate risk, but maybe works for you
If the sixers do like him (and they probably don't), I don't think they should mess with trading down. I would draft him at 15.
To me, his being academically ineligible (Fab Melo) is a major red flag in regard to his work ethic and/or attention to detail.
The big programs have so much structure in place to keep these guys eligible that you have to be a complete slacker to become ineligible. It's beyond disinterest in academia. Playing basketball wasn't important enough to him for him to allow their support sysytem to keep him eligible.
A defensive center wouldn't be a choice I would hate, but he's a major project and probably will never to get to be as effective offensively as Dalembert was. To me, his upside is a larger Kendrick Perkins while the (more likely) downside is Sean Williams 2.0.
I think Syracuse had a bit of chaos this year, I think no one knows the story of why he's academically ineligible but him, and the school, unless the exact reason was made public and I missed it?
I think he's a better/safer pick than Moultrie, a guy who people have slated at pick #15
I don't believe he is projected at 15 any more, that was before the combine mostly
Moultrie has a bad combination of lack of lower body strength and very little shotblocking ability. I actually liked the improvement he made defending pick and rolls, but he's going to need to bring something in the paint defensively. I like him, but I have concerns.
Based on what you know, and what's 'out there' - who is your 'best possible outcome' pick at 15?
Do you think the sixers will be picking for themselves at 15?
If I had to guess, I think the sixers will be moving from the pick. Not overwhelming, but I'd say 60/40 in favor of moving.
My best possible outcome largely depends on the prognosis on Sullinger's back. I had people on twitter calling me a hater because I wasn't enamored with Sullinger as a top 5 pick last year, but at 15, his talent is worth the risk on whether it will translate. After that, I'm a big fan of Terrence Ross, who I think can be a really good fit with Jrue, Turner, and Iguodala (if still applicable) and a much more legitimate starter than Meeks.
I like Moultrie, but have reservations, as stated. I wouldn't be averse to drafting PJ3, but I don't exactly have high expectations anymore, either.
Derek - What have you heard on Melo?
Thanks, Sullinger's measurements worry me, his back issue is a concern I guess, but I had concerns before that, again, based on measurements and reports regarding his game (especially defense) not translating well
His measurements and back issues are worrisome but i think he is just too talented to pass on at #15.
Well see - here's the point
Talented college players who don't fit in an NBA position aren't often talented NBA players...what affect do his measurements (and them only) impact his ability to do things in the NBA that he did in college. I can't say, but s we all know, college is easier for NBA guys, most teams have at most 2 NBA players on them...and most of those guys are bench guys
I've been waiting for this...
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Jared-Sullinger-Video-Scouting-Report-3989
Could only watch a few minutes, that song was driving me crazy, and if you don't go to duke, jay bilas doesn't like you as much ?
Bilas is arguably the best and least biased basketball commentator out there.
I disagree, I also think Bilas ability to judge who will do well in the NBA is off, not dick vitale bad but pretty bad.
Sullinger's measurements actually came out a little better than I expected. He had an 8'9.5" standing reach. Average for a PF is 8'10.5". His no step vert was 29.5", average 28.6". Thomas Robinson had an 8'10" standing reach and a 28.5" no step vert. He had a taller standing reach than Tyler Zeller. Kevin Love only had an 8'10" standing reach and a 29.5" standing vert.
(I care about no step vert for a pf much more than max vert)
Plus, his improvement on his jump shot was substantial.
He's undersized, but not debilitatingly so IMO. Not for a 15th pick. At this spot I'm not worried about him becoming a #1 option. Just an option. And I think he'll be that.
Do you think he will be able to effectively establish post position in the pros?
Establish position? Absolutely. It's not establishing that I've ever been concerned about. It's scoring over length.
He seems like a Collins type big if he does develop as a face-up threat. He'll love his "toughness" and mesh well with Lavoy.
Can he get rebounds and box out?
Yes.
24% defensive rebounding % on the 2nd best defensive rebounding team in the country.
Interesting, I would think reach would be an issue in both areas - huh
@DraftExpress
New Orleans trades Emeka Okafor and Trevor Ariza to Washington for Rashard Lewis and the #46 pick.
And then New Orleans buys out Rashard Lewis
yea probably
@DraftExpress
Rashard Lewis' 23.8 million dollar contract can be bought out for 13.7 million before July 1st. Trade saves New Orleans around 30 million?
And now the wizards are paying Okafor AND nene
I thought new owner was good?
nene can play PF
Or the wizards can make that nene #3 for Iguodala trade (or is it #4?) I suggested and still have a center.
I believe this is a dumb move by the wizards
they have the 3rd pick, seems like that pick is beal now
I wouldn't consider a couple of aging, declining vets as the types to change a draft strategy. I'd be amazed if they didn't take Kidd-Gilchrist or Robinson.
This has the looks of just the "first move", with another to follow.
Well you'd have to think they had something planned yes, but at the same time if you run Walla X Ariza Nene Okafor out as your starting five, you might be mediocre enough to make the bottom of the eastern playoffs.
I think too many teams make moves with the short sighted goal of 'getting in' in mind, that's what this feels like to me.
Buying out Rashard and using the amnesty on blatche gave them massive maneuverability this offseason to start building around Wall and whomever they took #3 (plus vessly right, with the hot gf?).
Instead this is a very 'billy king' like move to me
Agreed. And here I thought the original Nene trade was stupid.
I can see it from both sides.
NO gets a great financial deal that allows them to match any offer to Gordon without blinking.
Le Wiz get a couple of steady, defense-conscious vets to put around Wall, Vessely and their #3 pick. Nene/Okafor/Seraphin give them some legit size/bulk up front. Thery're pushing their FA year back 2 years where they hope to have a better developed Wall to attract a FA. Realistically, who was going to sign with them this summer? Assuming they amnesty Blatche, they've addressed their idiot factor very aggressively.
Don't forget cap holds and restricted free agents - they won't have as much cap room as you think.
This is a bad deal for washington, and what you've said hasn't changed my mind in the least.
(John Wall is an idiot too)
John Wall is an idiot with ELITE talent.
This is their attempt to salvage his talent rather than see it wasted like Javale McGee. It may end up being a bad trade, but I can understand their rationale.
You may be on to something here. Maybe they want to see if Wall can elevate a mediocre team before they invest in him long-term. If he can't, they would be saving themselves money in the end, and if he can, it may be a worthwhile expense to be sure.
Hiring a better coach and surrounding him with guys who have a good mental make up AND he can grow with makes more sense to me than surrounding him by mediocre guys nearer to the end of their career than the beginning.
I mean, is Okafor a great pick and roll guy I don't know about? Did Ariza learn how to shoot without sucking recently?
They were the worst team (percentage-wise) in the history of the league last year, so I don't want to be put in the position of defending their front office.
Nice job of using Okafor to set up a classic strawman argument - no he's not a pick and roll threat. The way I see it, Okafor is protection for their investment in Nene. A capable 5 allows Nene to play his more natural position and perhaps stay healthier - I believe that Nene is fairly proficient as a pick and roll option.
Nene will undoubtedly see minutes at the 5, but he will benefit from Okafor shouldering some of the heavy lifting (rebounding and defending the rim).
Ariza is not a shooter, but he does defend, run the floor and rebound a little.
BTW - net savings to the hornets 30 million dollars (approximately)
Think we'll finally start to see more moves now that the first significant pre-draft trade has been made? I hope so, getting tired of waiting.
Should we start an over/under on how long this thread gets before the next one starts? I'm guessing 1,003 comments.