The never-ending drama swirling around the Sixers perimeter players is bubbling to the surface, yet again. If you've been following the comment thread at all today, you realize Doug Collins
about Andre Iguodala have drawn a reaction, let's dive in a little bit after the jump and hopefully open the conversation up.
Instead of getting into what I think the Sixers should do on the perimeter, let's just take a look at the five players involved, completely agnostic of the Sixers as a team, and the team's needs:
- Andre Iguodala - Versatile wing player. Can score efficiently, probably not capable of scoring efficiently with a high usage rate. Excellent distributor, takes care of the ball. Elite defender. Proved he was capable of playing almost entirely off the ball for Team USA. He's probably at his best when he's spending some time initiating offense in the half-court, and pushing the ball off turnovers and rebounds. Elite finisher.
- Jrue Holiday - Developing floor general. Very good vision, capable of running an offense and finding open men for easy looks. Strong driver, developing mid-range game. Average three-point shooter (better on catch-and-shoot from distance, I believe). Not a good enough shooter to legitimately stretch the floor as a shooting guard. Excellent rebounder. Defensive potential is there, and production is sometimes as well, but consistency is a problem, really on both ends of the floor. His vision can be a great asset, and a hindrance. He sees things a lot of people don't on the floor, but the judgment isn't completely there. He'll force a pass for a home run that doesn't have a high likelihood of actually getting there. Sometimes, he doesn't take who he's passing the ball to into account. We also still see turnovers on lazy passes on the perimeter, though not nearly as many as last season. Definitive size advantage at the point, not so much at the two.
- Evan Turner - Good size, good handle, excellent rebounder. Developing mid-range shot. Athleticism hurts him on his drives, he has to rely on excellent body control to be able to finish on the inside, that's not enough against the better shot blockers in the league. He seems very good at using his dribble not only to get his shot off, but to set up teammates for easy looks, and he's made great strides in cutting down turnovers as a rookie, which isn't something that usually happens. Very good defense, and just like Iguodala, adept at grabbing a defensive board (or loose ball on the defensive end) and pushing with his dribble, getting the team out on the break, where he's been making great decisions as of late.
- Lou Williams - Gunner whose efficiency is propped up by an impressive FT rate. Relies on quickness to score on isolation moves, seems to prefer to play in isolation and dribble the shot clock down without involving teammates. Not a very good passer. Not very good at using his dribble and quickness advantage to set up teammates. Very poor at utilizing screens (he usually dribbles away from them, instead of setting his man up to get caught on the screen and turn the corner). I do believe Lou is very good at playing off the ball. He might be the second-best catch-and-shoot player on the team, and he's good at finding open spots on the floor to get his shot off. Defensively, he's under-sized and unmotivated, most of the time. When he's on the floor, the entire defensive unit has to focus on compensating for his poor ball pressure skills.
- Jodie Meeks - The best pure shooter of the group, though he's extremely streaky. If he's on, he gets the shot up and in very quickly, he can run off screens to get space for himself. He's horrible off the dribble, though. He must lead the league in out-of-control drives to the hoop (only because Nocioni doesn't get enough minutes anymore), and he might be the worst finisher at the rim I've ever seen. A truly one-dimensional player, who's one strength happens to be the team's glaring need. Gives effort on the defensive end, but isn't going to shut anyone down any time soon. He's typically the first guy opponents attempt to attack on the defensive end.
So that's the personnel, as I see it. Three guys who make plays for others pretty consistently. One guy who makes plays for himself, at the exclusion of others, and one guy who can't make plays for himself or others, but does a good job of converting on plays that are made for him, when he's hot.
The question is, how do you use this group of players to form a cohesive rotation and get efficient play from the group as a whole, on both ends of the floor. Figure three of these guys are on the floor pretty much at all times, at the one, two and three. What does each grouping give you, specifically?
- Jrue (1), Meeks (2), Iguodala (3) - With this group, Jrue is pretty clearly defined as the point, but Iguodala will initiate offense maybe 10-20% of the time. Meeks spreads the floor, theoretically, opening up driving lanes for Jrue and Iguodala. Defensively, Meeks is the weak link, but he can hold his own in a fair amount of matchups.
- Jrue (1), Meeks (2), Turner (3) - Pretty much the same as above, except the defense takes a step down and Turner is probably a better catch-and-shoot guy than Iguodala. Fewer transition points without Iguodala getting stops on the defensive end.
- Jrue (1), Turner (2), Iguodala (3) - Best defensive unit they can put out there. This group gets into the floor and converts in transition (especially if Thad is playing the 4). The distribution of playmaking duties is vague, and both Holiday and Turner need to convert their catch-and-shoot opportunities to make it work in the half court.
- Lou Williams (1), Jrue (2), Iguodala (3) - Technically, Jrue is probably still called the point guard for this group, but in reality, he handles the ball the least of the three players. The offense pretty much changes to Lou isolation, with a rare pick that he won't use. When Iguodala has the ball, this unit functions pretty much like the first unit when Iguodala has the ball, with Lou taking Meeks' catch-and-shoot role (which I believe he's good at). For the most part, Jrue becomes a catch-and-shoot guy who never gets the ball unless Iguodala is initiating the offense. Defensively, Lou is consistently on-the-ball, with the rest of the defense focused on covering for him, which is not ideal.
- Lou Williams (1), Jrue (2), Evan Turner (3) - Pretty much the same as above, with Jrue and Turner initiating on a rare occasion. Defense and playmaking are both downgraded in the Iguodala-to-Turner switch
Those are pretty much the only combinations we see. Far too many of them have Lou at the point, which I think is a misuse of his talents (and he does have talent, this isn't a bash Lou post). I'd like to see more of Jrue legitimately running the point, obviously, but that doesn't mean Lou's minutes need to be cut. What it means is that the team should not stop running its offense the second Lou Williams checks into the game, and especially not when the game is on the line. Lou can thrive off the ball, and if/when the shot clock is winding down and you need someone to get a tough shot off, then you go to Lou. Maybe he can bail you out of a bad possession.
As far as this Iguodala point forward debate, I'm fine with it. When Iguodala's initiating offense, he gets good looks for whoever has the advantage. He doesn't play favorites. Jrue gets good looks at three off Iguodala's penetration, the bigs get easy layups.
I have a hard time believing Iguodala and Jrue can't play together effectively, and find a good balance of who's making plays/handling the ball, and who's playing off the ball. I find it especially hard when I see what those guys have done over the past two games, especially in the third quarter of each game, the quarter in which the Sixers blew the doors off their opponents. Here are their combined numbers from both third quarters:
- 7/11 FG
- 1/1 3P
- 1/1 FT
- 11 assists (7 for Jrue, 1 for AI9)
- 3 turnovers (1 for Jrue, 2 for AI9)
Not only has it worked, but it has looked organic. Most of the time, Jrue was bringing the ball up, setting the play, then executing from the top of the key. Once in a while, the ball would be swung to Iguodala on the wing who would initiate from there. Everyone was involved, they were pressuring the ball on the defensive end, getting out in transition, and finding bigs for easy scores in the half court.
I honestly don't think Jrue's struggles have much to do with Iguodala, and how much Iguodala
needs the ball. Jrue's problems come when he's playing in a different combination in the back court, and usually when he's forced off the ball. It's a shame that we rarely get a chance to see what Jrue, Lou and Iguodala could do with Jrue at the point, because I think that group could have a chance to be effective.
The "can Turner play with Iguodala" question seems to be less important now with Turner finally finding a comfort level and producing pretty regularly. The next step will be to get Jrue on the same page, I'm just not sure what Doug Collins' plan is to get there.
Just throw J/T/I out there and be done with it.
Best defensive group - by a long shot. All three are great passers - particularly in transition. All three can run the offense - which should give ample opportunities to find mismatches on the floor and exploit them. Turner's handle should allow him to work well in isolation on the perimeter...leading to drawing the defense and finding the open man (something that Lou's size and selfish-gunner mindset will NEVER be able to do). Jrue is a good enough shooter from distance to makes teams pay for leaving him alone.
This is a no-brainer for me.
What he said
Awesome post Brian. I have a lot of thoughts. The one thing I don't agree with is that Iguodala is an elite finisher. He throws down some hellacious dunks, but he I don't think he's very good finishing after contact. Everything else I agree with 100 % though.
The first thing I would like to say is that I hate, hate, hate the phrase "holding people back." It's a phrase that is often very unclear and seems a scapegoat for people to criticize a certain player or players. Basketball is a free flowing team game, and if a player touches the ball somewhat regularly, they should at least be a decent facsimile (I hope I used that right) of who they are with plays run for them with regular touches. Iguodala holding back Turner has been the stance du jour of many people, but as you see it was just Turner playing poorly. He needed time to adjust to many different aspects of the NBA game, and now he's starting to do it. Personally, I think coaching (minutes, and in limited cases style of play- Steve Nash would be worse in Milwaukee, etc.) can hold a player back. Really, the style changes seem like they are most applicable to a pure point guard like Jrue. That's why I think it's more Collins holding Jrue back than Lou.
I also believe that the team's highest ceiling unit would be the JTI unit. Their defense would be the best if all are playing at high levels. I think Collins wants more offense in there because he believes he can coach anyone defensively. I don't agree, and he doesn't realize the future/current interests are the same. Those three are offensively talented players. None are Thabo Sefalosha.
Lou and Jodie shouldn't play together ever, because they really are both shooting guards. Running Lou off screens isn't bad offense, he's great making that jumper in the short corner.
Finally, I find it funny that Iguodala holds anyone back. He really hasn't used that much of the ball in his career, and now he needs it even less. The only way I understand him not being able to play with anybody is with two other poor shooters. Lou/Jodie/Evan/Jrue aren't superb shooters, but they take and make enough to keep the defense honest.
"The one thing I don't agree with is that Iguodala is an elite finisher. He throws down some hellacious dunks, but he I don't think he's very good finishing after contact"
Agree with this. In fact, I've been saying for years I think he's below average finishing after contact/touch.
Agree with this. In fact, I've been saying for years I think he's below average finishing after contact/touch.
Yup, and we saw it just last night actually, Thad's pretty bad at it too it seems
Should've said elite transition player, not elite finisher.
That's true. He sees stuff in transition that's amazing.
I've had this exact terminology question with Derek before. In my mind, (Overall Finishing) = (Finishing after contact) + (Finishing in traffic) + (Finishing when "open"). Iguodala is well-below average at the first, top 5 in the NBA at the third, and I believe above average at the second (because his athleticism will often allow him to get off a lay-up or a dunk).
In transition, #2 and #3 happen most, and I think he's an elite transition finisher. In the halfcourt, #1 and #2 happen most, so he turns out average or below average.
For those who think #3 is easy, think about the times when Brand, Hawes, and Turner don't finish when open.
He's 20 years old,he's going to have his ups and downs. I think a lot of the recent struggles have to do with hitting a wall (that he should have hit last year if EFJ hadn't glued him to the bench) more so than struggling with different rotations. Doug seems concerned about keeping him fresh, he's probably showing some signs of wearing down.
agreed.
Doug seems concerned about keeping him fresh, he's probably showing some signs of wearing down.
Has doug said anything publicly about this - because to me if he hasn't it's utter bollox speculation and BS -
yeah. he's told Jrue to stop lifting for now because he doesn't want him to wear down.
here you go:
"I think he's tired," Sixers coach Doug Collins said about Holiday. "I don't think it is as much physical as it is mental, and you have to remember he is playing the toughest position in the NBA, going every night against the best players in the league."
http://articles.philly.com/2011-01-23/sports/27044778_1_sixers-lou-williams-deron-williams
Interesting - it shouldn't be an issue (conditioning) and if he has an issue maybe he should talk to his teammate who until this year played heavy minutes and games since his rookie season.
And 'conditioning' is a lousy explanation for keeping him on the court and not using him in the fourth quarter but to stand in a corner - in fact it makes absolutely no sense
If players don't fit together is it always the case of one player holding another back?
See, that's why I threw in the "(if anyone)"
In the vein of this article, I'd like to apologize for holding certain posters back on this blog. It's purely selfish of me. I'm only out to get mine on a day by day basis. I'm only worried about my stats and my numbers, no one else matters. I'm just a selfish ass not worth my pay rate
you have poor touch around the submit button too
I truly am, for years I've worked at my finishing, and nothing seems to help. I'm also not looking to make my team mates better, or improve my fundamentals, I'm just a combination of the worst parts of Iverson/Iguodala/Dalembert
I can't post between you and Heady's. I'm best when I'm opening up discussion and nobody disagrees with me.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/210463/Warriors_Have_Iguodala_On_Radar
If Curry isn't on the table, I tell GS to go fuck themselves.
Yep, he's the only one on that roster who interests me.
You love David Lee - ADMIT IT
Well, if you want to use the Classic Yankees logic and overpay for mediocre players who killed you when they were on other teams, Dan Gadzuric would be an awesome "get." But only if he'll agree to an extension. I'm not trading Iguodala for a rental.
Admittedly I didn't realize he's still in the league, let alone on the warriors :)
At the GSW forum at realgm, I here the fan consensus is that expirings + Dorrel Wright would be too high a price for Iguodala.
I love the subjective nature of fans.
Heh. Do you think they have the same type of standards, like "No contracts longer than David Lee's!"
That's a pretty low standard.
They had to adjust after the Biedrins and Ellis contracts were trumped.
Your assessment of lou is inaccurate. Lou is a good passer and he is also good doesn't turn the ball over excessively. He uses his dribble to set up Brand, young and turner effectively. He does not "prefer" to dribble out the clock w/o involving teammates, that only happens when collins sets up iso's for him at the end of quarters, halfs and games. He is not poor at utilizing screens. defensively he is undersized but also underrated. Sure seems like a lou bashing post to me.
Lou Williams - Gunner whose efficiency is propped up by an impressive FT rate. Relies on quickness to score on isolation moves, seems to prefer to play in isolation and dribble the shot clock down without involving teammates. Not a very good passer. Not very good at using his dribble and quickness advantage to set up teammates. Very poor at utilizing screens (he usually dribbles away from them, instead of setting his man up to get caught on the screen and turn the corner). I do believe Lou is very good at playing off the ball. He might be the second-best catch-and-shoot player on the team, and he's good at finding open spots on the floor to get his shot off. Defensively, he's under-sized and unmotivated, most of the time. When he's on the floor, the entire defensive unit has to focus on compensating for his poor ball pressure skills.
You can read it however you want. These are my observations on Lou. I do think he can be a very effective player off the bench, but PG is a bad role for him. If that's bashing, so be it.
In my opinion, it's not a question of who can play together or of who is holding the other back, it's a question of how good can Jrue and Turner be? The only way to find that out is to put the ball as much as possible in different situations. Can Turner play the "point forward" position? Can Jrue run the team for a complete game? Can Turner become the teams lead scorer? Can Jrue cut down his turnovers? Putting the ball in Iguodalas hands more does not answer these questions.
Thad has proven he's back to where he was pre-Jordan. He has proven with consistent minutes he's going to produce in very effective ways. He's really becoming a solid player playing withou the ball and he's playing tough on the boards.
We have probaly seen the best that Iguodala can be. The popular opinion on this blog was for Iggy to be the off the ball finisher/wing defender he played in The Worlds. Put him in that role and let the younger players show what they can or can't do.
This team will only improve as far as Jrue, Turner and Thad go.
This team will only improve as far as Jrue, Turner and Thad go
Thad doesn't belong in that group - it's insulting to Jrue and Turner in my opinion - Thad is going to another team next season
Insulting? I definetly think Thad is part of this teams future. He still has plenty of upside plus he's only 22. I can still see him improving. besides I don't think it's going to kill money wise you when it's time to resign him.
$10M/year, that's my best guess for Thad. Could be higher. And that is going to kill you.
I think thats a little high. A bench "tweener" who averages 12 ppg and 5rpg? I see 7-8 million per.
It only takes one team who thinks he can start at either position and look at his numbers beyond PPG to get him up to $10M. Honestly, $7-8M for him is going be tough to swallow while you're still trying to add pieces to the puzzle.
His best stat is his FG%. He's very effective in his limited role. You're right. Someone will be willing to overpay for him. In that case it's their gamble.
What does Thaddeus Young bring to the table aside from scoring?
I haven't seen much else
and in his time in philadelphia I haven't seen him improve in anything really.
I think people need to ignore last year for most players - go back to the cheeks/dileo year and compare to that
Last year (exept for Lou - which should tell people something) was pretty much a lost year with the worst coach ever in charge
More Collins after Monday's practice: "The one thing I’ve tried to do is build relationships with our guys and talk about the truth and why we do things and how we do things. Nothing here is ever personal. Guys here know, at the end of the day, we want to win the game.
"Like yesterday, Mo Speights did a good job but didn’t play in the second half because they went to a small lineup. Thad was playing so great and I needed either Elton or Spencer to play against their big. They basically played four smalls the entire second half.
"The big thing is when you do those things, you communicate with the team. That’s why text-messaging is nice. After the game, I text-messaged Mo and said, ‘Hey, you did a good job yesterday. Matchups dictated what happened in the second half. I’m going to need you against Jersey with Humphries and Petro and Lopez and Favors and their front line.’ "
Thanks, Tom. Good stuff. Still unclear that there's much of a defensive difference between Hawes and Speights, but at least it's an explanation.
I still think the 'big difference' is that they traded for hawes so have to start him - because Speights is better offensively (it's hard to be worse) and defensively he's no worse
Hawes had four blocks in 17 games prior to getting two Sunday.
I just don't think Collins trusts Speights, especially late in games. Expect to continue to see a lot of Brand at the 5 and Young at the 4 at crunch time.
Yeah, I don't have a problem w/ Brand/Thad, I trust them on both ends more than Hawes and Speights. I would like to see Speights see more minutes outside of crunch time, though.
Think you'll see it some nights and perhaps not on others.
Speights' defense essentially is trying to draw charges -- though you could argue that's more than Williams does at that end.
Tom-
Anything being said about Noce? Is his hand still hurt or has Turner's improvement resulted in the DNPCD's?
The Big Bitch strikes again
And now, well, we can add ball boys to the growing list of those who despise him. According to Marc Spears of Yahoo Sports, a boy asked KG for his autograph. He responded in kind with, “You got a better chance of catching Bin Laden.” Guyism.com
I think (hope?) playing Iguodala playing at point forward can be translated to less Lou at the point down the stretch.
If that's the case, its a good thing in my opinion
Agreed. Better than Lou at the point, but the ideal is getting Jrue comfortable in that position, and that's going to be hard to do if you avoid it like the plague.
Maybe Collins is trying to send a message to Holiday about cutting down fourth-quarter turnovers and leaving his feet with the ball, which they've been working on getting him to stop doing.
I remember maybe five years ago when Iverson was unhappy that Cheeks planned to have Iguodala initiate the offense more because Iguodala wasn't getting many touches with Iverson as the primary ball-handler.
Iguodala also has the NBA's sixth-best assist-to-turnover ratio (3.18-to-1).
When do you suppose Collins will start teaching Lou lessons about playing defense worse than a bull fighter - or his poor shot selection - or inability to handle a double team
My problem is that Collins seems to have a double standard as to who gets taught lessons (for instance, recently, aside from one game where he sat him to start the third, Hawes doesn't get taught many lessons)
Well, there could be an explanation for the selective teaching. Jrue is the future, Lou isn't. Speights will be here beyond next season, Hawes will not. I don't have a problem with limiting the teaching to the important players, as long as they realize why they're being disciplined and other guys aren't, which is tough to communicate, I would think.
The other explanation is that Collins' main concern is limiting turnovers, especially late in the game.
Problem with selective teaching (and as a former teacher, I used to do it, and as a student I was a victim of it for a variety of reasons) is that it alienates students, rightly or wrongly, it creates division. It's not that hard to coach everyone the same Doug.
Though Dougs history is that he's harder on rookies isn't it?
Well said, Brian.
would we need to put Magee on suicide watch if Monta Ellis came here in an Iguodala deal?
I'm going to politely ask you once to stop referring to me that way - i find it kind of insulting. If you don't know me well enough to know my first name, you really don't know me well enough to use my name at all - there's a screen name - use it.
Ellis has been better supposedly this year, but I don't buy it - Not sure I'd be on suicide watch but I'd be on the look out for a team better run than the sixers since at that point i'm thinking 28 of them (the clippers not withstanding) look better run
Hey...do I get grandfathered the use of jem?
Never really minded that, but I find it insulting when people refer to people by their last names in general, I just think it's a derogatory way to address people unless you're my drill seargent (and i'm a pacifist anyway)
so calling me and other posters douchebags, idiots, and the like...completely alright.
calling you by your last name...insulting?
you are an interesting character
Look - i get that you wanna be accepted by the cool kids - but they aren't going to like you just cause you hate me
fail to see how calling you out on your hypocrisy has anything to do with my ego
As always, you miss the original point, which shouldn't surprise me
We're talking about my original point. You are being unreasonable. if you'd like someone to address you by a certain name, don't go to your laundry list of insults any time a particular poster disagrees with your seemingly infallible opinions.
You can't be hyper sensitive about someone calling you Magee, while routinely name calling everybody other than Brian.
How is this not making sense to you?
What don't you buy about Ellis's improved stats?
Sustainability - and that's he's all that 'good' for his salary (Lou Williams, higher WS/48 this year)
Gee, this isn't even his best year or anything. He was way better than this 3 years ago.
3 years ago he had an unreal eFG% that probably won't be seen by him again
and his offensive rating ws higher than his defensive rating
(which has never happened before)
though his assist rate is rising steadily (however you want to interpret it) but his defensive rebounding is trending down
I think its' more likely this is monta ellis than 3 years ago
But you don't even think this is Monta Ellis. You think that neither 2007 Ellis nor 2010 Ellis is the real Ellis; you just want to pick on 2009 Ellis. When he was playing on a disastrously miscoached team, with all these D-Leaguers.
Funny you want to accuse someone of cherry picking when you go to the outlier (based on the rest of his career) as the year that's the indicator of his future.
His best WS/48 before this year was 06/07
I don't care what your excuses are for him but even this year he's 'no better' OVER ALL than Louis Williams
He just makes a lot more money
Monta Ellis is a good louis williams clone who is grossly over paid
Trading for him when you have a cheaper more productive version for him is an asinine idea and people thinking he has good value is just an example of how antiquated (to me) the thinking is of some people.
Monta Ellis is having this wonderful year to you but Louis Williams is producing better than he is.
What does that say about the contract Monta has?
I don't want to trade for Monta, I just think he's way better than Lou, that's all. For one thing, you don't hear Warriors fans complaining that giving the ball to Monta at the ends of games is insane, because he's actually really good at that sort of thing. Monta, I believe, is a far more talented player and if Lou tried to carry his scoring burden his efficiency would drop to Arenas-like levels.
Hmmm....your logic, per usual, has none. You don't deal with facts at all, it's fascinating.
Who cares what the fans think.
Monta gets the ball because on the Warriors there are no better options.
Lou Williams gets the ball because the coach is an idiot who thinks there are no better options.
The numbers dispute your assertion that monta is 'much better' than lou so you look for arguments like what the fans whine about to support your premise.
How does Jodie Meeks have a better WS/48 than Jrue?
Very good question.
Limited shots, limited turnovers, does more with his shots.
Limited minutes outside his runs with the first team? (I'm guessing) Making his defensive numbers look better than they are.
Then again, the sixers so far have the best bench in a bunch of categories in the game :)
Yet, Meeks is lousy. So let's stop giving so much deference to WS/48.
You remind me of the people dismissing the 'clutch' stats because they disprove the perception that kobe is the clutchest in the world, it's not possible that the perception is wrong, it HAS to be the stats...this kind of thinking allowed Billy Beane to field a quality team on a limited budget before everyone caught up with him.
It's that kind of thinking that keeps malcolm galdwell and the freakonomics folks churning out very interesting people.
Only Sheep have a monolithic perception that is unchangeable when presented with evidence to the contrary
Only Sheep look for one number to define everything in a sport as complicated as basketball.
Regarding San Jose Mercury News report in which a Golden State team source claims “Andre Iguodala has been on the radar of the Warriors for a while,” the Sixers and Warriors apparently haven't had any significant talks about a possible trade.
And when Sam was traded to Sacramento did they have a lot of public comment about the talks?
Or when they got Chris Webber did anyone know it was about to happen?
The sixers don't do a lot of things well - but keeping trade talk out of the media is a strong suit.
What do the Warriors have that the Sixers would want? With the uncertainty due to the expiring CBA and likelihood the salary cap could decrease significantly, expiring contracts aren't as eniticing as in the past.
Well...I sure would want Curry - and would probably have to take a guy like Biedrins (and that contract) to make it work.
I would rather see TONS of J/T/I...but if they are fixed on moving Iggy, I could see the logic behind Curry.
The sudden fixation on tons of JTI reminds me a little of Kahn's fascination with collecting small forwards.
I thought Kahn was obsessed with obtaining point guards
Ha.
Well let's see. Right now, he has Brewer, Webster, Beasley, Wes Johnson, Lazar Hayward. Last year he had Cardinal and Pavlovic.
Since Comcast is more worried about the bottom line than building a championship contending team - nothing
But if they were smart - they'd see if they could get curry - take on a longer contract (biedrinds) and thus improve their core.
"And when Sam was traded to Sacramento did they have a lot of public comment about the talks?"
Actually, yes. The interest was well reported at the trade deadline last year.
WEll there you go
They publicly spoke about one trade that went down so they're blabber mouths?
In general it seems that the sixers keep trade talks quiet (and the sam stuff was public - i mean they were talking bout trading him for 18 months ;)
Looking at the rotational data, there hasn't been as much JTI as I've suspected with the naked eye over the past couple of games when Turner has picked up his play. I still am not sure why.
Another thing I'm not sure gets brought up enough is how steady Elton Brand has been this year. Obviously not what he's paid for, but he's been excellent.
My rotational data doesn't include the past two games
And Iguodala was hurt.
I'm thinking of doing it in 10 game chucnks or month by month or something. It's needs to be cleaner
I'm just looking at the rotation charts Brian puts up. Iguodala being hurt is one thing (though he's been back 10 games and looks pretty darn good), but he doesn't play as much with Turner and Jrue as I thought. Frustrating.
Here you go, this should help.
2010rotations.xlsx
Since Iguodala came back, 45:40 with JTI at the 1, 2, 3. +15 in those minutes, 97-82 they outscored the opponent.
They also played 19:13 with Jrue at the point, Turner at the three and Iguodala at the four. -17 with that lineup, outscored 35-52, which is just horrible.
Prior to Iguodala's injury, JTI at the 1,2,3, 152:27 minutes, -34, 273-307.
JTI at 1,3,4, 13:12, -6, 27-33.
So much better w/ those guys at the 1,2,3 since Iguodala's return. The small lineup with Turner at the three and Iguodala at the four has been terrible all year.
I think the reason why the JTI lineup at the 1,3,4 is horrible is because they are used in clutch situations only and the Sixers have been horrible in those situations anyway.
The only instance where I think that anybody is being "held back" would be Lou getting the major of isolations over Turner. Turner excelled with the ball in his hands at OSU, truthfully, he hasn't earned those opportunities yet. In the same vein, Jrue hasn't shown enough poise at the end of games to take those opportunites either.
I don't mind Lou getting isolation opportunites, but what I don't like is when he's allowed to waste multiple, consecutive possessions where no one else touches the ball. I'd like to see an attempt at executing a play, and the ball going to Lou with 6-7 seconds left on the 24 to make something happen.
IMO, they waste too many possessions by having the ball in his hands too early. He's shown the most consistent ability to get into the paint and or create shot opportunities by himself, but he needs to be protected from himself by limiting his touches and early (in the shot clock) opportunities.
Looking at the entire roster... what is your best guess for which current Sixers will still be on the roster by March 2013 ( 2 years from now and after the traded deadline)?
For reference, that is 2 months befoer Brand and Lou's contracts expire and Iguodala can opt out (player option.) It is the year after Speights is a RFA. Of the remainder of the roster, only Holiday, Turner and Brackins would be under contract past the end of that Season.
Odds:
Jrue 90%
Turner 70% (would not be shocked if he is part of a major trade)
Lou 60%
Thad 50%
Brand 40% (but about to expire)
Iguodala 30%
Meeks: 30% (might extend here for cheap
Brakins 25% (I think he gets traded, but he is Thorn's guy)
Speights 20% (if no one else wants him as a RFA)
Hawes: 5%
Noce 5%
Songalia, Battie: 0%
You think Brackins is in the league in 2013?
He'll still be on his 1st round rookie deal (just like Turner), so absolutely.
BTW, Thorn said in an unrelated interview that he tried to trade up to get Brackins (as NJ GM.)
Oh wow, first round. I assumed a guy of his dubious talents was a second rounder.
21st overall I believe. But some people though he was a reach. But all it takes is 1 team...
I'll say Jrue 75% (I think Thorn may try to make a major move, and there are a couple of superstar point guards who will probably become available in the next 18-24 months, I could see Jrue being included in a package for one of them).
Turner: 70%
Iguodala: 50%
Brand: 50%
Thad: 40% (I think it's worse than 50/50 that they extend him this summer)
Brackins: 60%, he'll still be cheap, no harm no foul.
Meeks: 30%
Hawes: 0%
Nocioni: 0%
Songaila: 0%
Battie: 0%
Lou: 15%. I think Lou might be the first guy moved, to be honest.
You think Thorn will trade away Collins's favorite player? Collins loves Lou and his scoring, he can do no wrong in this coach's eyes. Believe me I wouldn't mind seeing Lou moved tomorrow, but if Collins has any veto power at all you think he'd use it on Lou. "Who am I gonna run iso plays for? C'Mon Now!"
He would have to find another assassin.
So if my math is right, that means you think J/T/I has a 27% chance of being in effect 2+ years from now.
26.25%, right?
That's what I got.
Except I was guesstimating :)
Here's a stat: The 3.0 points per game separating the Sixers' top scorer (Elton Brand) from No. 5 (Thad Young) isn't the lowest total in the league. The Pistons have 2.8 ppg from Nos. 1-5.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6gjv8xo
Not a 'blockbuster' trade I know - but a trade that I believe makes the sixers better on the floor this season without costing them much - plus (minor thing) it gives them Przy's rights in free agency doesn't it? I know he's injury prone - but he's tall and people pay for tall
This sounds like a good idea. No, a great idea. I vigorously support anything that results in my eyes seeing significantly less spencer. I wonder if Collins would start Pryzbilla over the garbage stiff tho? You can never tell with that guy.
I would hope he would start him - I mean given the choice - Przy is the better option. FOr his career he's been a back up but he's still better than Hawes right now - and he expires this year so it's no long term investment - the blazers get a young big back (which honestly - what the hell else can they expect for this guy)
To me giving up Speights sucks, but it's not a huge bummer and Przy solidifies your front court a bit if you want to TRY and make playoff noise.
It's not a deal I advocate in general but if the sixers are committed to the 'we can make the playoffs so Iguodala is OFF the table' thing - at least improve the roster he has to play with.
Personally, I'd add Rip Hamilton as well
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4thj7p3
I'd do Nocioni and Williams (or Kapono if they wanted a bigger salary dump) for Hamilton and Wallace.
My deals were made so as not to hurt anything that the sixers have been doing successfullly this year - the only 'major' piece given up in my two deals was Speights.
I'm not sure he's an upgrade at this point in his career but if Brand and Iguodala ain't going anywhere you slide Rip into meeks spot and you slide Przy into Hawes spot and only lose one player who even is part of things right now
37 pts on 22 shots for melo, 9 rebounds tonight. Gotta give Iguodala credit, one hell of a defender
and a loss :)
I've seen it speculated here that Thad will get an offer of $10M per, do people really see him being offered more than Paul Millsap was as a RFA?
I've read he wants 10M. That is not to say any one will offer it.
I thought he wanted $12M. Anyway, there are some dumb teams out there w/ cap space (depending on the CBA). I could see someone making an offer. Then again, teams are really hesitant to make offers to RFA's. Portland did it for Millsap and then Wes Matthews. Memphis made an offer to Josh Smith. The Bulls made an offer to Redick this past season. Dallas made an offer to Gortat. All of those were matched except for Wes Matthews. Then you had David Lee who didn't get an offer, even though the knicks almost certainly wouldn't have matched. Who knows.
There was a limit to how much Millsap could be offered, because he was a second round pick and reached free agency after his second second season. There max for Thad is much higher (see Rudy Gay's contract last summer).
The difference between Millsap and Thad isn't really that great. Millsap's rebounding is better, but not dramatically so. His rebounding has actually regressed quite a bit since he signed his contract.
Forgot to add this quote from Sunday's postgame by Turner about entering the game late in the first quarter: "When I checked in, he (Chauncey Billups) had 16 points. At that time, you just want to make sure he doesn't hit 80."