If this was Bleacher Report, you'd get a pointless slideshow designed to annoy you and pump up page views. Here, all you're going to get is a starting point for a discussion with no right or wrong answer. Something to tide you over until we kick it back into gear for our game 11 discussion.
Obviously, this discussions goes way back to Doug Collins' statement that he believed Jrue Holiday could become a top five PG in the league by the end of this season. Personally, I don't think he was wrong about Jrue's potential, but his timeframe seemed absurd.
Last week, on the heels of some especially spirited play from our 20-year-old point guard, some top-five discussion surfaced again in the comments, then Derek and I touched on it during
SixersBeat last Thursday. Forget about Jrue, he's not there yet, though he's certainly inched his way into the top 15, maybe higher. Let's just talk about who the top five are. Or, to be more accurate, who your top five are.
For me, the answer starts with a definition, and this is the part that's completely personal preference. When I think about top five point guards, I don't think about the top five players who happen to play the position. I think about the five guys who are best at doing what I think is crucial to the position. Namely:
- Running an offense
- Setting up teammates for easy looks
- Providing enough scoring to keep the opposing team honest
- Ability to get a hoop to stop the opposing team's run
- Ability to slow, hinder or stop penetration from the opposing point guard.
It's with those priorities in mind, that I chose my top five:
- Chris Paul - Paul is head and shoulders above the rest in my opinion. He can win a game by himself without taking a single shot, or he can score 40 to beat you. He contributes in every area of the game. I don't think he's a very good on-the-ball defender, but you can overlook it when you consider he wins his matchup every single night.
- Deron Williams - Williams does it all, and more than just about any other PG in the league, he uses his size to bully opposing PGs. Just think, the Hawks passed on both of these guys for Marvin Williams in the 2005 draft.
- Rajon Rondo - Rondo's lack of a jumper is alarming, but he makes up for it on the defensive end. He's also completely focused on using his dribble to set up teammates for easy looks, which is probably a good idea when you're sharing the floor with four future hall-of-famers.
- Steve Nash - If he was five years younger he'd be higher on the list. As it is, only Paul is a better playmaker in my opinion. The defense is atrocious, always has been, but much like with Paul, who cares.
- Andre Miller or Russell Westbrook - I can't make up my mind on this one, so I won't even try. Miller is in a bad situation for a PG (playing alongside Brandon Roy), but we saw firsthand what kind of effect he can have on the players around him. Need a hoop? He'll get it. Someone else on the team needs to get going? He'll find a way to make it happen. Need a big play on the defensive end? He'll dip into his hidden reserve of athleticism and shock someone with a blocked shot. I'm fully expecting him to explode for Portland whenever Brandon Roy is out of the lineup (which looks like it could happen very often this season). Westbrook has really impressed me this season. He's scoring, rebounding, handing out assists, defending. He's probably the least prototypical example of a PG on this list, but with the rate he gets to the line, he couldn't be ignored. I prefer his game so much to that of Derrick Rose, who just missed the list. Two drawbacks to Westbrook's game, he needs to stop shooting threes yesterday, and he turns it over too much. Put a gun to my head, and I'm giving the nod to Miller in this position.
On the Fringe:
- Derrick Rose - Rose shoots too much, and prior to the first ten games of this season,
he wasn't enough of a distributor for me to rank in the top five. He's
doing much better in that last regard this season, though his turnovers
are way up as well. He just doesn't strike me as a point guard, and
that's important to me.
- John Wall - He's got the physical tools and he's looked the part, at times, this season, but no way I can put him there after so few games, with so many turnovers.
- Stephen Curry - I love Curry's game, but I don't think he's truly a point guard. He does a fine job playing there, but he's a shooting guard to me.
- Jason Kidd - In his prime, he was better than Chris Paul is now. But he's so far past his prime.
- Jrue Holiday - If I re-evaluate three years in the future, Nash and Miller will be out and the final two spots will be between Jrue, Wall, Westbrook and Rose.
- Brandon Jennings - Better as a defender than you think, worse as a scorer, and he shoots way too much.
So there's my list and my logic, let's hear yours in the comments.
"the final two spots will be between Jrue, Wall and Rose"
No Love for Rubio?
CP3 is my #1, I enjoy watching him play more than any other player in the league this year.
My problem with Rondo being #3 is that he's playing with the celtics witch elevates him to a whole new level. I think his lack of FT% and Jump shot would make it impossible for him to ever lead a team as the main star but that's just me. If you put wall in boston and Rondo in Washington Rondo wouldn't be considered #3. But obviously it's tough to adjust for all that etc.
My top 5
1) CP3
2) Deron
3) Nash
4) Westbrook
5) Rondo
No Love for Rubio?
I'm confused Ricky Rubio is Sid Finch - he's never going to play for Minnesota...why should he? (yes i know sid finch wasn't real)
I obviously can't for sure say anything about Rubio playing next year for Minny, but I think there's a chance. Regardless, I do think he'll be in the League in 2-3 years.
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Rajon Rondo
Derick Rose
Steve Nash
Watch out for John Wall that kid is a beast
"If I re-evaluate three years in the future, Nash and Miller will be out and the final two spots will be between Jrue, Wall and Rose."
You mean, between Jrue, Wall, Rose and Westbrook. You forgot Westbrook, who's already a top 6 PG for you. Anyway, as they sang on Sesame Street when I was little, which one of these things is not like the other, which one of these things just doesn't belong. Wall already looks twice as promising as Jrue.
Yeah, I did forget Westbrook.
which one of these things is not like the other, which one of these things just doesn't belong.
Sesame Street teaching everyone to conform - evil Sesame Street
John Wall doesn't look twice as promising as Jrue to me plus he looks more scorer than passer to me, I like my point guards to be less Iverson like personally.
Keep in mind that wall and holiday aren't that much different in age
Go take a look at Walls Ast% vs Jrue's. I think Wall can do it all.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=holidjr01&y1=2011&p2=walljo01&y2=2011
8 games in huh?
8 games in which Wall is almost the equivalent of neutral on offense?
Yes, let's make conclusions about a guy 8 games into a season.
Last year Brandon Jennings clinched the rookie of the year award after he scored 55 points according to some folks at the time...
lol ok. Then how can you say that Wall isn't 2x better prospect than Jrue. You say that he is too "iverson like" when he's only played 8 games, then I make a comment and suddenly you're back pedaling like "it's too early to comment on wall's game".
Jason, I agree with you. I think Wall has potential to have elite vision, and take over games with his penetration and passing. A little like Chris Paul.
No, that wasn't Sesame Street's point. They were just trying to teach kids concepts, like vegetables vs. fruits. Birds vs. fish.
Also I don't see how we can knock Wall for being a gifted scorer. Like Isaiah Thomas was somehow a worse point guard because he led their team in scoring. Or like Paul and Deron Williams would be better if they weren't so good at scoring. Wall's already their best scorer, so he shoots the ball, but he makes a ton of plays, especially considering the lousy talent there.
We have to be sure Wall is a gifted scorer at this level. I'm not sold on his jumper and without it, the rest of his game falls apart a little. I'm not saying he isn't going to be better than Jrue, I just need to see some more. See my comment below for my main concern w/ him (along w/ the turnovers).
I think Wall might have the competitive drive of Iverson, but he really looks like a pretty pure PG.
"John Wall doesn't look twice as promising as Jrue to me plus he looks more scorer than passer to me, I like my point guards to be less Iverson like personally."
John Wall is very little like Iverson, IMO.
I think people underrate John Wall's floor game for the simple fact that he can score as well.
1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3. Steve Nash
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Derrick Rose
Rondo is the interesting one. I think he's #3, but I think he is the perfect guy for the Celtics offense, living to make the other guys better. You need a specific mindset to play with those three personalities/players, and he is the best fit in the league for that team.
I think it is okay for a p.g. to score, D.Williams has to for Utah, and Rondo would have to if he was here but they have to be able to defend that is why I am not a fan of Rose. My top 5 are Paul, Williams,Westbrook, Wall and Rondo. Wall makes my 5 because he plays both ends and if he was on the Celts I don't think they would be any worse than they are now.
Turner 'lets things bother him,' according to Collins
http://ow.ly/3alXB
Rondo is definitely the wildcard. He's top 5 for sure- but he's the one guy who could really struggle if he was on the wrong team. I'd say the same for Westbrook and Rubio.
Do u guys really believe Jrue could be in the top 5 discussion? I believe his ceiling could be top 10 I think top 5 is pushing it correct me if I am wrong.
For me, yes. I think he could be top 5. I think he's got 20/10 potential with a 40% three-point shot and excellent on-the-ball defense. If he reaches those numbers, that's potentially top five to me. I'm probably more bullish on Jrue's ceiling than most, though.
Wall has been very impressive so far, but I need to see more. I'm not sure if he's going to be a gunner or not, there's a good chance he will be simply because he's going to be the best player on a terrible team for some time and he's going to try to earn the superstar label.
Here is my list!
1st Deron Williams
2nd Chris Paul
3rd Steve Nash
4th Rajon Rondo
5th Derrick Rose
Believe me Brian nobody hopes Jrue could reach that top 5 ceiling more than me but I just don't see him being better than Rose Rondo Paul Williams Wall Westbrook I think he can be in the Parker Harris Billups pack which is top 10. Hopefully I am wrong though and hes top 5.
Billups is an interesting name because of all the Piston comparisons our rebuilding process seems to warrant. If our top level stars are here [Iggy/Prince?], [Evan/Hamilton?] and [Jrue/Billups] than who becomes Mr. Bigshot? Once someone takes that mantle, does doing it by committee work, than Collins can devise interesting end of game strategies.
As long as Deron, Chris Paul, Rondo, John Wall, Westbrook/Derrick Rose, and Kyrie Irving are in the league, Jrue will probably never sniff top-five. And if Lawson could ever start for a team and not play behind a stud vet, he would be up there too. Just like my long-held belief that Andre Iguodala would never become an all-star, but it was hard to convince most on here a mere two years ago.
Well, I did say there are no wrong answers. So you've got one guy who has played exactly one college game, against Princeton, and one guy who's looking like a career backup ahead of Jrue. Duly noted.
Lawson looks like a starter to me. They play better with him in the game than Billups. I don't know what about his game screams career backup. Certainly nothing about his game screams top 6 point guard, but he's not much worse than Collison. I think you have a tendency to overrate our young players. You were hugely optimistic about Thad, Speights, and really believed that Iguodala would one day attain a complete offensive game and accurate three-point shot. I specifically remember how you thought that the Iguodala of March-April 2008, when he averaged over 20 a game and shot the three at 37% (40% in March!) was the true Iguodala, the Iguodala that we'd continue to see in the future. And as it turned out those just happened to be the two best months of his professional career, nothing more. And with Jrue there's this similar, "he had so many assists in this one game, he shut down Westbrook back in the spring," ignoring that all the while he's been compiling an aggregate record that's good but isn't extraordinarily promising, and puts him on about the same career path as Collison, not guards like Wall and Westbrook and Rose.
Hmmm, I think Jrue has more than a game to go on. I personally think having even a Top 10 PG will be huge because the position is so deep. 5 is such an arbitrary number and a hierarchy can be created that goes more than 5 deep.
That being said, have you seen anything this year that rules him out of Top 5 discussion? Wall is excellent, but what will his aggregate record be this season, and Rose or Westbrook haven't been great record-wise, which really isn't important at this point. I think you might not even be giving Jrue a chance against some of these guys. He really looks like a better player when he plays against Collison too.
It's entirely possible I'll be proven wrong, but my assessment is based off more than one game with a good assist total or one defensive effort. And if memory serves, I believe it was you who said Thad would be a better all around player than Iguodala by his third year, not me.
As for comps, well we've got 8 games of Wall so I'm not sure how you can say he's on any path. He looks about like Brandon Jennings did this time last season.
Here's Jrue next to Westbrook, through each of their first 82 games or so. Jrue was a year younger and didn't have the luxury of playing with Durant, the numbers are still comparable.
The same comp with Rose. Again, Jrue was a year younger, again, his numbers are in the ballpark in pretty much all areas but usage.
I'll concede Jrue doesn't have the scoring potential of Rose, Westbrook or Wall, but I think his floor game is better and he's probably a better shooter right now than any of the other three will ever become. As for Lawson, well I guess we should only pay attention to how he started his rookie season and not how he's played since about February of last year. It's much more likely he's a 67% shooter from three, like he was during his unbelievable start, than he's a 28.9% shooter from three like he has been over his last 32 games. We should also pay no attention the pedestrian numbers he's put so far this season. Of course, the benefit of the doubt goes to anyone not wearing a Sixers jersey, so that makes sense.
I only disagree with Wall eventually having a better floor game than Jrue as he gets acclimated and stops turning it over. Rose and Westbrook are scoring PGs
Meaning I think Wall will pass Jrue in that area.
He could. I don't think he's there yet, though.
I didn't say Jrue would be in the top five, I said the last two spots would be between Wall, Jrue, Rose and Westbrook, imo.
Billups is hardly a stud vet at this point. He's actually not very good at all. You would probably be pissed off all day about him if he was a life-time Sixer :)
He was very good last year. He's been very bad through 10 games this season. We'll see how he ends up by the end of the year. He may be done, but how good he was last year, he deserves a few more games before we stick a fork in him.
Right now:
1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3a. Steve Nash
3b. Rajon Rondo
(Nash and Rondo are interchangeable- one contributes nothing on the defensive end but shoots lights out and the other can't shoot a lick but is very valuable defensively. Playmaking they are very similar this year. Toss up)
5. Russell Westbrook.
(He's made a jump this year. Been the Thunders best player.)
In two years...in some order...
Paul
Williams
Wall
Rondo
Westbrook/Rose
I think it's a decent bet to pencil in Jrue for 6th or 7th on the list. If he can become a Steve Nash-esq spot up shooter- 45%+ from 3, get a 4 to 1 ast to turnover ratio going, and become a lock down defender- he could sneak further up the list. But if you were to ask me if I would trade Jrue for any other PG's above, I would say yes to them all except for Nash because of age and possibly Rondo because he couldn't keep the same production on the Sixers without the same weapons.
Video: Collins on Iguodala's health, not putting starters back in blowouts and other items
http://ow.ly/3azCf
Looks like Varejao and Mo Williams are questionable for the Cavs tonight leaving a starting 5 of Sessions, Parker, Moon, Hickson and Hollins. Let's see if the Sixers can handle that intimidating group of players.
1. Williams
2. Paul
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose
comment: Nash, Kidd, Miller and Billups are all terrific PGs. They are however significantly past their prime and i can't put them in the top 10 because of their defense at this age.
Wall, Holiday, Jennings and Rubio all have a realistic shot to get there. However i do think that a lot depends on the systems they will play in and the surrounding cast of players.
Rose is not much of a PG but was still enough for spot No.5. And Curry will be very good just not good enough for the top 5 IMO. With his defense he has to be Chris Paul on offense to get to the top 5 and i don't think he can get there...