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Miller's Getting His Legs Under Him

Well, great, his FG% is up, he still shoots too much and still doesn't work well with Brand, who is having one of the worst seasons of his career (if not the worst secondly only to the one season in LA)

Brand is part of the future of this team, Miller isn't, and miller should be traded while his value is up...increased play on the court just increases his trade value.

Andre Miller won't be on the roster next year, and this roster isn't going to seriously contend for a title this year - keeping him is short sighted typical philadephia sports franchise thinking - it might go done as just as bad as the wagner non trade

So you're ready to concede this season and get what for Miller?

I know 7 games is a "small" sample size, but when you break it down, it is about 1/12 of the NBA season. Just like teams have hot winning and losing streaks, players have hot and cold streaks. I'm interested to see the first 14 or 15 games broken down into seven's...I'll go check that out.

I conceded the season before it started - expectations were insanely unrealistic - if they won one round of playoffs i would have considered this season over achievement.

I have no idea WHAT to get for miller - but would you rather stumble along in mediocrity - not trade miller - and then watch him walk for nothing and have to FIND a point guard in the off season with a weak market and little cap room?

Again, I point towards the phillies when Billy Wagner was in his walk year - they had a SICK offer from the red sox - long term assets - but the GM was stuck in short term 'make the fans think we're contending when we really aren't thinking and thus hurt the long term success of the phillies...they'd be set at 3rd base right now if they had done that, and had a couple more trade chips...and yes they won the world series this year but they'd be better of now and going forward if had made the deal...

My idea to trade miller (long before the season started) is based on these premises.

A. THe ultimate goal is to win a championship
B. As a fan I'm willing to endure a bad season or two if I think the pieces are being put in place to contend for a title
C. Andre Miller was not going to be a sixer past the 08/09 season
D. Even 100% healthy the sixers were not serious title contender in 08/09.

Taking these 4 pieces together, I would have traded Miller earlier, and it's not conceding the season to me, it's being reliasatic that there's no way you can compete with the cavs or celtics yet - let alone compete with the lakers...

You are conceding the season unless you think you can trade Miller for a suitable replacement at the point. And the one problem with your Wagner analogy is that the Phillies had a sick offer on the table, do you know of a sick offer for Miller, or any offer for that matter. Either one that's on the table now, or even a rumor from the offseason? I haven't heard one.

You call it conceding the season - i call it building for the future - if they aren't a title contending team (and they're not in my opinion) then the 'season' isn't going to turn out a way I want it to either.

What's better

A. Maximizing the value of Miller by trading him before the Feb 19th deadline

OR

B. Playing out the string with miler, having a better record than you would have if you traded him, but not having any point guards on your roster and walking him walk away without any compensation excecpt the joy of another mediocre season and a first round playoff exit?

I'm sorry - again - keeping Miller until he leaves for nothing is short term thinking - it's letting the fans guide your plan because you're worried about a bad record as opposed to buildng a title contender...it's classic Ed Wade / Billy King.

And just because we haven't heard anything doesn't mean there isn't anything out there

Fans really think they should know more than they should.

Gasol came out of nowhere
the trades the past couple days came out of nowhere
GOOD GMS DON"T LEAK

I'm not saying they shouldn't trade him. I'm definitely not saying they should let him walk. What I'm saying is who do you trade him for? If you're going to trade him for a point of the future, then fine. Who is that guy and how is the deal going to work?

Trading him just for the sake of trading doesn't really do anything but make this team worse this year. While they may not be championship caliber, you don't just flush your season when you have a shot to make the playoffs. Trading him now, before the team even gets its feet under them and figures out how to play together is short sighted. We don't know what we have right now, you think they suck and apparently you've thought that since the Summer. I don't think it now and didn't then. We're probably both wrong they're somewhere in the middle.

Trade Miller without getting a replacement point back and you'll be right, they will suck because Lou and Ivey cannot run the point full time.

Who is the answer at the point? They could probably trade Miller for Hinrich, straight up. The Bulls would be rid of Miller's salary at the end of the season, the salaries match up. Hinrich is out for another two months, and even so, is he the answer?

Maybe the Bulls would be interested in Dalembert for Hinrich, then you can move Miller elsewhere for a shooting guard.

I don't know, but instead of just blindly saying trade him now, suggest some trades. Or at least say what you want to trade him for. Saying he must be traded immediately with nothing behind the idea other than "don't just let him walk" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You need either a plan for how the team will be better off this season, or how they will be better off down the road. Give us some names.

I'm not the GM - I don't know who is available - rumors are rumors, reports are rumors, published nonses is rumors, all I'm saying is that it's better to trade Miller sooner than latter (because as I said earlier i think his value to a contending teams goes down with every game played) than letting him walk.

Something for Miller - even if it ain't a point guard, but workable pieces moving forward is better than nothing...that's really the point i'm trying to make. I don't speculate on the 'trade machine game' because i hate the trade machines - i hated them on realgm and fans don't have an idea really who is on the move to where as evidenced as what happened yesterday since all the 'rumors' were about charlotte and clips - never heard phoenix mentioned until the trade actually happened - fans delude themselves into thinking they know who and who isn't available - but we really don't know jack crap except for the rather obvious ones...my point is the larger point - trade him now and get something because it's better than another first round exit and nothing...and scrambling in the off season - trading during the season gives you a bit more control then running around for free agents (without the trade piece that is andre miller).

And my point is - i don't care if they get worse this year (not ssure how many times i can say it in different ways) if i think there's a plan in place to get better long term...until the move is made - i don't know what i'll think

What i do now is that holding on to miller all season for medicorities sake does not help the long term championships aspirations of the sixers in my opinion - and brand wasn't signed just to be mediocre - he was signed to help the sixers WIN a title - and one way or another miller as a player on the court for the sixers isn't going to help them win a title - his most value to the championship aspirations of the sixers right now is as their best (aside from thad/speights) trade piece but he has a limited time value....and each day it decreases incrementally.

Hinrich isn't a point - he's a shooting guard.

As for you - suggest some trades - already said i won't.

You know what I notice as you try to 'push me' into making trade suggestions - you have no suggestions or ideas past this season - if you don't want to look past this season that's fine.

But let's say they play it out your way - they keep miller - they play out the string - they are mediocre - they lose in the first round, MAYBE the second round (there's no way they beat BOston or cleveland in the playoffs and you know it)...what's YOUR plan in the off season - when miller most likely leaves - the sixers don't have much cap room or a good draft pick or any real viable trade assets - you want to install lou as the starting point guard.

If you somehow feel lou williams is a starting NBA chamipionship point guard - then well - that's a different point - but if you don't - what's you SPECIFIC PLAYER solution in the offseason without trading miller and picking in the low teens?

Just curios since your entire argument against trading miller is you don't know exactly who they'd get - a tired argument if i ever heard one - it's like the 'who would you hire' argument for NOT firing mo cheeks - who cares - mo cheeks stinks and no team will win an NBA title with Mo Cheeks as a head coach.

BTW - this is a situation that could have been avoided - again - by a smarter GM

How does

Rondo
Iguodala
Young
Jefferson
Sam

Smell as a starting lineup?

First, explain to me how that could've been the Sixers' starting lineup. Did Boston offer Rondo and Jefferson for AI?

Second, I never said they should play out the string and let him walk. Letting him walk does zero for this team. They won't be under the cap, so they won't have anything more than the mid-level to find his replacement.

Over the Summer I said they needed to extend Miller, and I still believe that. If you can't extend him because he wants more than 3 years and/or he just doesn't want to sign with you, then you need to find that out now (you should probably know before now, actually. I wrote that in the Summer).

They don't have a viable option beyond Miller at the point, Lou isn't the answer. Their best chance was to extend Miller for 2 years if he'd do it. See what this group can do together, then reassess. Saying you want to trade him for anything, even if it isn't a replacement for Miller, isn't moving this franchise forward. It's tanking this season. That's not going to help going forward.

Making the playoffs and getting knocked out in the second round isn't the goal, but it's how you get to the goal. It's how you get guys to sign with you for the mid-level. It's how you get guys at below market value. If you want to just cash in this season and trade Miller for anything the momentum the franchise built up last season and last summer will disappear.

If there's a deal out there that will give us a replacement for Miller, maybe a point with a long contract like Hinrich, for Miller, then by all means do it. I've been looking, though, and I don't see anyone who fits the bill contractually. I'm not talking about rumors here, I'm talking about who could fit according to his contract and the CBA.

Trading Miller for anything other than a point who can run the team for this season and beyond is not an option unless you can swing a separate deal for that point replacement.

Stefanski should have a rule: Trade Miller but who ever takes him has to take Sam I aint too for cap relief.

Boston offered Rondo and Jefferson for Allen Iverson

So yes - it's pretty much the equivalent of ed wade and the boston deal - would have been much better off long term saying yes instead of no but probably still would have had the chance to get thad.

If you force someone to take sam and miller together (answering a separate post here) - you won't get squat back - it's close to 20 million in salaries AND Sams contract runs too long (it runs past 2010 free agency) for it to be that valuable for his bad playing these days...it's more like yes we'll take dalembert off your hands if you give us andre miller but your return is going to much less if you force sam into a deal (and much harder to make)

Millers value is expiring this year and on the court - Sam has no expiry value currently - too far out - and his on court value is minimal unless larry brown wants him.

Or maybe trade him to the bulls for hinrich since the bulls have no center


Trading Miller for anything other than a point who can run the team for this season and beyond is not an option unless you can swing a separate deal for that point replacement.

BTW - above quote - i totally disagree with it and see it short sighted nose cutting face spiteing thinking - if there's a good deal out there you take it....you're limiting the return on miller to something specific or agreeing to let him walk for nothing - which i find silly - and no i don't know and you don't know WHAT miller would fetch on the open market - but ed stefanski does...and he should be shopping miller and i don't believe he is - which i think is short sighted thinking worthy of ruben amaro or ed wade only.

You have to extend him or replace him, that's my point. Replacing him through the draft is an iffy proposition, especially considering where they should be drafting and the window of opportunity w/ Brand. Replacing him through free agency is highly unlikely, they'll only have the mid-level to work with. Which only leaves replacing him through trade. Hence, my statement above.

What makes you think Stefanski hasn't been dangling Miller? Or at least feeling out the market.

I think Hinrich is a guy you couldn't turn down. He "fits." He can shoot, defend the 2, wun the point, and not turn it over too much. He isn't going to be Jesus at the PG position, but he isn't going to hurt you most nights. If the Bulls wanted Miller's expiring contract, do it. If they want Dalembert, do it.(but get Noah as well somehow to offset the loss of size)

I don't think you can trade Miller and not get at least a guard who is going to be part of your future... whether a point or a SG who can really shoot while being somewhat athletic.

Trading Dalembert for Hinrich actually makes a lot of sense for both teams. The Bulls have zero shot blocking on their roster, they're getting beaten on the boards by a small margin, they have a glut in the back court and Dalembert's contract is actually short than Hinrich's.

From the Sixers' perspective, I'd have no problem with Hinrich running the point in the future, he's got good size he's a good defender and a good three-point shooter on his career. For this season, do you really think they'd have a terrible drop off if all the minutes at the 5 went to Theo, Speights and Brand in small lineups?

If they could pull this deal off, then I'd have no problem trading Miller for an SG with some upside.

Of course, Hinrich is hurt and probably out until late February, and who knows what the Bulls think of Sammy.

So because he's played 7 good games we can safely say he has his head screwed on straight? Seems premature.

No, not premature in context. The next sentence said we have to keep him that way. He's playing now like he did in the second half last season. It's been a steady ascent to this point, now we need to keep him at this level and get the other guys playing to their potential.


If watching these Sixers as a fan and you cannot see that this guy is putting it up and bringing it every night the last 2 weeks or so, then the disagreements have to be something other than on-court performance.

Personal dislikes for particular players have to be put aside. Whether you like the guy or not, he is pretty much putting this team on his shoulders and carrying it. When we are down and the opposing team is in the midst of a run, Miller more times than not will force it and penetrate, hard and quick, through the lane for one of his herky-jerky layups. To me, he always seems to come up with a crucial bucket when we most need it to halt a run. He is so adept at keeping the defense on its heels.

I also think that Miller is wise enough to know that guys on the team are just not shooting well right now, so he takes it upon himself to get up more shots because the others obviously aren't making them. And this lack of shot making is hurting his assist numbers.

You trade Miller for the best package possible to ANY TEAM THAT OFFERS IT

The sixers turned down a better package for iverson than what they finally got because it would have been to the celtics - which i'm sorry if you are rebuilding or trying to get better is asinine - don't cut off half the league because you might play them 2-3 times a year...that kind of stupidity is why the sixers are where they are now with the andre miller situation as opposed to having two more realtively young upside guys coming into the primes of their career and only desperately needing a center with a clue.

If the best offer out there isn't a good offer - don't take it - but if it's a very good offer from the nets or the heat or whomeever, you take it because you want to get better.

Everyone mocked Danny AInge and then in a matter of a week all those 'young good assets that didn't fit' he acquired turned into a championship team.


Do you have reason to believe the Sixers wouldn't trade within the Eastern Conference, or even the Atlantic?

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gdog2004 on Dec 11 at 19:42
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I think of late Miller is playing great and you should trade him for younger talent...Even IF(a big if) this team makes the playoffs....so what ?
So we can be the 7 or 8 seed and get gang raped by either boston or cleveland in 3 games ?
I would rather see them lose 50 games this year(which is a very likely scenario WITH MILLER anyway) and have young potential coming up....maybe even have an extra draft pick and a shot in the lottery. I know everyone loved Stefanski...and I do too...but Brand really doesnt look good and that is his defining move to this point...I know hes banged up now but even before that...just an above average player.

Gdog, some folks think we wouldn't necessarily get gang-raped, and probably think it's not too late for us to get really hot and become a 4th seed. I disagree but that's the logic. Also, first-round series are now out of 7 so technically it'd take them 4 games to gang-rape us.

I don't think it's fair to say Brand isn't fitting in because of Miller. Even though he's the point guard, the whole team has been out of sync and it's a lot to do with the lack of coaching and lack of a game plan.

I love Miller's play. He shoots so much now because the rest of the team can't get anything going. He did have 8 assists in the Cavs game, his lack of assists is not because he isn't passing the ball, but because players aren't finishing scoring opportunities.

I really believe that a starting-caliber SG aside, we have the pieces to get to the ECF, I really do believe that the current coaching staff will not be able to get it done.

Even if the sixers make the four seed - anyone who thinks they can take boston or cleveland (healthy) in a 7 game series (let alone both of them) is taking the kind of drugs Walter Bishop envy's.

BTW - what's the saying about guys who put up big numbers on crappy teams?

And if anyone thinks this team with an upgrade at starting SG (you know, like jason richardson) would make the ECF I'm not sure what to say.

No team starting Sam Dalembert will make it past the second round of the playoffs in my estimation

I'd say more that no team with a starting backcourt of Miller and Iguodala will make it past the second round. And that it would stunt Thad's long-term development to move him back to 4.

Now that sounds premature to me.

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Tray reply to Brian on Dec 12 at 11:28
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I know, because their combined 15 seasons of play haven't proven that they both can't shoot or anything. And the past 50 years the league's been around haven't definitively proven that you can't win with two starting guards who can't hit a shot beyond the foul line. It's premature! Iguodala's just like Richard Hamilton... he'll pick up this scoring on shots that aren't dunks thing over time.

I actually think his percentage is way down on dunks this year as well. :)

Do you have reason to believe the Sixers wouldn't trade within the Eastern Conference, or even the Atlantic?

It's often reported that GMs won't trade within conference or division, I think in general it's a nonsensical idea, and if it prevented the rondo jefferson deal from going down...well then that's a problem.

Thad isn't a four - thad's a 3 - the sixers still only have 4 guys on their starting 5 who should start in a championship team.

PS - Mo quoted, AGAIN, talking about how the defense is the issue - which again indicates to me that Mo is clueless as to what's really wrong with this team, the offense is atrocious Mo, it's worse than the defense, you feckless fracker.

PS - if you read city paper (never heard of it myself) there's an article calling for Mo's fire.

Like the new sites, the switch to PHP - things are moving faster than on the CGI stuff :)

I think the defenese is a much bigger issue than the offense. We cant win very many games if we allow teams to put up 30 in a quarter. Having good defense allows for inefficient offense. I think Iggy and Thad need to click more. Thad has a ton of poetential. Look at his numbers his line this year is equal to Tayshaun Princes career averages and oh yeah this kid is only 20. Everyone always says how good Prince is and how hes the ideal teamate, the "complete player". This is Thad right now, and hes still evolving. I hate hearing how Iggy cant shoot. Thats just not true. Look at his form. High arc on his shot, hes so athletic and jumps so high that it is nearly impossible for his jump shot to be blocked. I agree Miller isnt the problem, its the team not adapting to an identity, somewhere between running like last year and half court with Brand. They need to find that and then we will find the playoffs.

Iguodala's form can be fixed. That's the saving grace here. He does fundamental things wrong, especially with his feet, that can be corrected. I can't tell you how much I wish he'd done that this past summer, but there is absolutely hope for his jumper down the line. Even without correcting his form in the short term, he won't shoot this badly for an entire season. He's actually pulling out of his shooting slump, in general, although his 3pt% is still down.

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Tray reply to Aaron on Dec 12 at 16:52
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Great, his jump shot is unblockable. It also never goes in. There's something fundamentally wrong about that thing, I'm not sure what it is, but it might almost be too much arc. You saw this with Iverson too, a lot of fading to the point where he went up, his body would almost be in a 70 degree angle to the ground. Occasionally he got hot - I feel like other than that his shot was more technically sound than Iggy's - but it usually failed.

I'm convinced that the problem with Iggy's shot is his footwork. Keep a close eye on it tonight. He shoots so many shots with one foot in front of the other, he shoots with his feet spread too far apart, he shoots with his feet moving, even though it's a wide open shot that he can get set for.

Up top, in his hands and arms, the shot doesn't look too bad to me. He gets the proper backspin. It's just that he's never set when he's taking it, and he does that ridiculous leg kick when he follows through.

think the defenese is a much bigger issue than the offense.

I'm curios as to why people keep saying that - the sixers are middle of the pack defensively and one of the worst offensive teams in the league - so why do people keep ignoring the facts?


I think it's the fact that this team should be among the best defensive teams in the league, possibly top 5, they have the players to accomplish that. I don't think anyone ever thought they'd have a top 5 offense.

Personally, I think they need to work on both, but still agree with you. This team should be over .500 allowing 95 points/game. The offense has been the huge failure.

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Aaron reply to john on Dec 12 at 13:38
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Because of all the teams that win it all usually have top tier defesne: Detroit, San Antonio, Boston. Take a look at a teams blueprint for success and you will find good defesne.

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john reply to Aaron on Dec 12 at 15:34
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They alo have offense that aren't atrociously bad - the sixers have a BOTTOM FIVE offense - no one wins a title with a bottom five offense - focusing on the defense acknowledges half the issue and the sixers are broken at both ends of the court if you want to argue that but they're MUCH MORE broken defensively.

BTW - to Joe - Thad is pressing, thad is young thad is the best offensive weapon the sixers have and he has a coach resistant to acknowledging that so he's probably trying to do too much.'

Until mo gets fired it's all academic - he's clueless as how to coach

Thad has been sucking. When a player puts 100% of his productivity into his ability to make shots... it is not a good thing. Grab a board, make a good pass, and block the occasional shot Thad... that way you aren't Willie Greening us on an off day.

I don't know what's going on with Thad. I feel like his offensive rebounding numbers are down because Mo tells him to stand out by the three point line and wait for open shots. On defense he's had some tough match ups, and while I think his on-the-ball defense has been petty solid, he hasn't done much in the way of getting into the passing lanes, or helping productively. Maybe he's a little tentative.

There have been times when he's played like a man possessed, crashing the glass for put-back dunks. Pestering his man incessantly on defense. Driving to the hole and finishing strong. It seems like these stretches usually last for a couple of minutes, then Mo takes him out. Frustrating.

Note: When I preview and then post... I get errors. When I just post it goes through.

Thanks for the heads up, should be fixed now.


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