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Willie Green: Running In Place

How much longer does his contract run? Funny thing is, the Sixers had no problem eating Webber's or Big Dog's or any of the others but seems hesitant to waive Willie. Don't tell me they can't find someone who can shoot to take his spot.

He has 2 years left. I'm not entirely sure what the ramifications of waiving a guy who isn't in the last year of his deal are, I don't think I can remember anyone who was waived with more than 2 left. Webber was about half-way through this upcoming season (meaning 2 left) when they waived him.

The problem is, when you waive a guy his money still counts against the cap, so basically, they'd be eating $7.5M over the next two seasons (or a large portion thereof, depending on how much of a buyout he took).

harsh assessment. personally I like Willie Green. think he does excellently (as evidenced early in the season) as a bench guy who comes on in spurts. he may not play good D but he gets in ppls faces. dont underestimate that annoying guy that comes off the bench to plaster himself all over whatever star guard is killing you and takes him off his rhythm by initiating double-technical type contact. u'll see, once he hits the bench again u'll fall in love with him. perfect example of a professional to me. reminds me of eric snow (with shaky D); come to work everyday with his game, great for lockerroom chemistry till his deal expires anyway.

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Mike reply to jkay on May 4 at 3:34
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please point to me 1 example of any game this season where willie green did anything to take a star opponent out of his rhythm. it's been a running joke for years that willie green has scandalous photos of ed snyder and other front office personnel, because it is the only reasonable explanation for a guy like him to continue to see so much playing time in this league. according to every statistician, the only worse starting shooting guard in the nba is deshawn stevenson. you can compare green to lou williams because neither does anything to help his team win basketball games, and they happen to play for the same mediocre team.

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Mike reply to jkay on May 4 at 3:40
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and yea a poor man's eric snow isn't far off. but if you stop to think about what that really means, it's pretty depressing. actually i wish willie possessed 1/5 of the floor game snow had as a leader on the court (assist to turnover ratio, defense, extension of the head coach, etc...)

willie is their spiritual leader, and is by all accounts a very nice guy. unfortunately that doesn't win you basketball games.

....and pls stop comparing him to Lou Williams. its starting to really offend me. 100% agree his is a liability but thats where the comparism ends.

I don't see similarities between Willie and Snow at all.

Willie is a horrible starter or bench player.

I think it is nice and all that Willie seems like a class act. Good for him. I wouldn't mind him wearing a suit as our 13th man making the league minimum alla Donyell most of the year. That would be fine with me. I'd rather have Kevin Ollie probably, but whatever.

The problem is that Willie plays and sucks at basketball.(relative to other NBA 2s) No matter what argument you make you will not convince me and if you haven't been convinced... I don't know what to say, except that when you compare him statistically to other guards he fails and fails badly. When I watch him with my eyes, he fails and fails badly. I don't think his D is as bad as some are making it out to be though.

He has improved a little though, which is nice. Last year, he improved a lot. He is still a poor player, even for a bench player IMO.

Ideally, Willie would be used in a role similar to Royal Ivey. He gets the toughest assignments on "D" due to the other guard in the lineup(Andre M, Lou W). Nice guy. No problem with him if he was being used appropriately except for the salary. Must acquire a veteran to take those minutes.

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deepsixersuede on May 4 at 8:09
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Brian, If you look at draft express/features/nba salaries Willie is listed as an expiring contract and only partially guarenteed. I don
1t know if after he got hurt they put this in the deal to cover themselves when he signed but nobody else has this.As far as his play,if he is put in a situation where if he is hot you keep him in or if he is not you sit him,4th guard, than he ,I feel, can!t hurt you too much.Overpaid and not a starting 2 guard, yes, but neither of those things are his fault. I actually feel like he gets the most out of his talent, its just not good enough. The opposite of L.Will.

Positives for WG:

1.Played more within himself this season. Less shots off the dribble.

2. His catch and shoot and overall 2 pt jumper % were about the best on the team- says something about the team.

3. Played mediocre defense on PG's in the 1st quarter of most games. Allowed Miller to cover slower sg's at that time.

4. Does not make rash, crazy mistakes/risks on either end (unlike, say, Evans.) So teammates don't have to constantly adjust for his inconsistent play.


I see Green as the equivalent of the catcher or SS who hits 210 and has an average arm. Probably able to hide him on a good team, but really gives you nothing. ut you can majorly upgrade the team by replacing him with a star at his position.

Up till now on this blog, I have NEVER READ anything positive about Willie Green's Basketball game. I think other teams fans laugh at us with Willie Green as our starting guard. All agree he would make a good bench player (I think to use in scrub games!).

He needs to go or take Rush's spot on the bench.

deepsixersuede - I hope you are right! That would be a dream come true. But I think we will awake and find it is just a dream. Sad, but Tom Moore, can you advise??

Willie Green to me is an 8th/9th man on a team that is contending for a title - at best - spot minutes to rest the guys who really matter.

The fact that he's got two more years (and the last one is a player option? Seriously Billy King, i hope the knicks hire you and give you a lifetime contract)

Yet another guy who year after year shows why they didn't deserve the long term deals they were given

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deepsixersuede on May 4 at 10:59
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John, we may have to add L.Will. to that list.I wanted to ask you about our p.g. [Curry] discussion yesterday. I agree with your description,"point guard skills first" but sometimes other attributes may fit your roster better.Two examples that come to mind are B.J.Armstrong and D.Fisher, both good defenders that can hit the open jumper and probably would list distributing skills down on their list of attributes. Chalmers fits a similar mold, having played with another p.g. most times at Kansas.I am not saying Iggy compares to M.J.,Koby or Wade as far as talent but more as a guy that benefits from a p.g. that can spot up and shoot if he is the 2 guard. Would like your thoughts.

I agree with your premise. I often think of Iggy as a "Lebron-Lite" kind of player who needs shooters who can defend around him. He doesn't need the classic point.

I'm no FULLY ready to give up on Lou just because of last season - Willies consistently been the same suck ass player - Lou was very different last year than this year.

I don't know enough about all the various point guards to answer your question properly, my concern is that Curry was never expected to create for others until last season - it's his mentality.

As much as Iguodala is NOT a take charge kind of guy - he's a facilitator who takes his points where they are but does a little bit of everything on the court there are point guards with passing skills and shooting skills and then there are undersized shooting guards that people try to MAKE point guards because of their height

Iverson
Williams

And I think curry fits into that mold...it's a mentality thing - and I don't believe curry has the point guard mentality any more than it worked with louis williams (nor do i believe he'll be available at 17 in this weak arse draft)

Igduoala isn't a Kobe or Wade type, and he never will be, it's not his game - and any one who expects that to evolve any time soon should probably accept that it won't - makes it less aggravating. If you want to compare Iguodala to a great of past - look to Pippen...that's more likely what his max game is'

I don't deny the sixers need a point guard who can score, but they need a point guard who can create for others as well - Miller may be slowed but he can still fnd the open guys - he just doesn't have the range.

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jkay reply to john on May 4 at 13:00
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i would give up on Lou Williams if i were you. any player with that kind of mindset is a steer clear for me. young, impressionable my ass! even if he becomes a decent player, he wont be a decent teammate. let him go somewhere else like GS where he can jack up his fadeaway 3s. Willie Green may suck but Lou Williams just kills.

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john reply to jkay on May 4 at 13:52
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Well, as someone who is probably slightly older than you I'm going to respectfully disagree...

You only need to look at denver to find a guy who can turn it around (attitude and play) in one season.

Of course if you've been ignoring denver this year you probably think JR smith is a punk too

People used to think Josh Smith was a punk and half the fans were drooling over him last year.


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Sean reply to john on May 4 at 15:57
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It is funny that you mentioned Pippen, because I often thought that a modernized version of the 94 Bulls(MJ 1st retirement) is not a bad model to build around a player like Iggy. Lou(with a more disciplined coach) could become what BJ Armstrong was for that team.

Willie Green is a lost cause, better to be used sparingly off the bench in short doses.

Basically the time when Brian came up with the chart that showed Willie Green as the second worst starting SG in the league (ahead of Deshawn Stevenson) said it all.

But yeah, I do feel Willie has not killed this team this team as badly as Lou Williams did. The team is more aware of his role and so is he.

Here's the link to that post about Willie.

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Statman on May 4 at 11:41
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Anyone who has read my commentary on Deep Sixer over the past couple years knows that I'm as down on Willie's game (not his person) as anyone else, but I did want to point out that he was a different player before his injury in 2005. When he first came into the league, he penetrated and drew contact a lot more, got more rebounds, and was in general a more physical player. His FGA-to-FTA ratio in 04-05 was a respectable 3.4 (for comparison, Lou this year was at 2.2, Miller 2.5). When he came back from the injury, he was a different player. He still gets in the lane on occasion, but he most often shoots away from contact rather than welcoming it. His FGA-to-FTA ratio this year was 7.7, a horrible number unless you're Dell Curry or Steve Kerr.

Some other comments ... I'm in the camp that considers Willie as a far-below-average defender. He's willing and sometimes shows energy, but he's physically limited; he gives up on plays after picks (leading to the forlorn Willie Green face); he gets beat off the dribble a lot; and long before Thad developed the bad habit of overhelping on penetrations and leaving his man open for 3's, Willie was making that into an art form. In fact, I coined it the "Willie Green" special -- going over to help on a penetrator, thinking you can get back in time, NOT getting back in time and instead giving up an open 3 [and in his case, almost always to a good shooter]. I've noticed this in Willie all the way back to the early part of 07-08 -- anyone remember Mo Peterson going beserk against the Sixers for something like 20 points in the 1st quarter? But it happened a lot this year too (Roger Mason, Von Wafer, J.J. Redick in the last game of the year).

And regarding his rebounding, again he was better at it before the injury, averaging one rebound every 8 minutes in 04-05 (for a good comparison, Thad and Iguodala were at 1 rebound every 7 minutes or so this year). This year, though, Willie was at 1 rebound every 14.5 minutes, worst on the team. Brian mentioned his rebound-less games, but he didn't mention that 5 of them came in a row (3/25 to 4/2), for an astounding 113+ minutes of no rebounds. Almost impossible to do, I would think.

Conclusion: Willie is no better than a 4th guard and shouldn't be seeing consistent rotation time on a playoff team.

How much of Willie's PT was to help cover for Miller's:

-difficulty covering PG's (at least for 30+ min)
-lack of a jumper (as well as Iguodala.)

Both the Andre's are tremendous players and leagues better than Willie- but I think the problems of playing Miller/Iguopdala at PG/SG led to much of the overuse of Willie.

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john reply to tk76 on May 4 at 12:37
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Not sure how that's as impactful as an injury to brand forcing his lousy ass into the starting line up

True. And the fact that the other SG choices were Ivey and Lou Williams.

Honestly, Miller is possibly the best SG on the team, even through he can't shoot.

But don't forget that Green returned to the starting line-up before Brand's injury.

Beat me to the punch. It was Mo Cheeks' wisdom that brought Willie back to the starting lineup, not Brand's injury. And DiLeo didn't rectify the situation either, although he only had 2 games in which to do so.

Iguodala at the 2 and Young at the 3.
0708 - 48 minutes +18
24 minutes +9(with JSmith in there)
8 minutes +5(with Booth in there)
0809 - 342 minutes +63

Those are the only instances of Iguodala playing the 2 and Young playing the 3 I could find.

I think the Sixer coaching staff got it right. Obviously wasn't working.

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john reply to Joe on May 4 at 14:03
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There are 3936 minutes of game time in an NBA season - call it 8,000 over two seasons and you've got 390 in which they tried Iguodala at the 2 and Young at the 3.

Sure - they got it right - in the land of small sample size...not to mention that Iguodalas slow ass start didn't help matters anyway.


Yeah, I think you missed Joe's sarcasm.

Every instance of Thad at the 3 and Iggy at the 2 has resulted in positive +/-.

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john reply to Brian on May 4 at 14:18
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I tend to miss sarcasm even when i give out my own - ah well

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Joe reply to Joe on May 4 at 15:39
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I was mostly just saying... look when Iguodala and Thad were on the court togther at the 2 and 3 they did a good job.

A sample size that small doesn't mean much. Mostly just frustrated the sample size hasn't been larger.

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john reply to Joe on May 4 at 15:42
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Yeah, i get that now - i think it's the whole 'ibanez burrell' debate that has blinded me a bit - gotta breateh a bit more :)


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Joe reply to john on May 4 at 16:43
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What are the basics of the argument? I don't follow the Phils seriously, so give me the gist.

They are similar OPS players right?

Ibanez is having the better year right now from a quick glance at the numbers?

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john reply to Joe on May 4 at 16:47
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The general gist is that raul ibanez got 3 years 30 milllion dollars - by far and away one of the biggest off season contracts of those 'second tier' guys - and a certain section of the fan base argues that pat burrell is less 'consistent' over his career. It should be noted that a large portion (mostly ignorant) of the phillies fan base hates pat with a passion that's irrational in equal with what he's done for the franchise while he was here (and he was treated poorly on the way out)

There are those who argue until this season that ibanez is a better offensive AND defensive player than burrell (last year he was) - a better base runner and then he's more 'clutch' than pat burrell.

When presented with volumes of evidence that AT BEST indicates that they are equally good players - they resort to the 'but rauls havinga g reat season so far' - one month - of a 3 year deal

Pat got a 2 year deal for 15 million and the phils kicked his ass to the curb without even offering him arbitration (thus giving up a draft pick for ibanez but not getting one back for pat)

It's a rather vociferous debate - as a blog gets more popular - i guess you get the 'wider wip' view more.


To be fair, a lot of the guys who weren't offered arb would've probably wound up taking the 1-year deal for MUCH more than they wound up signing for. Abreu being a prime example. This Winter, if teams wanted to move in a different direction, they were wise to not offer arb. Ibanez is really the only second-tier guy who left his team after being offered arb, right?


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