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Sign Sammy's Successor

I'm so glad you wrote this post. I've been touting the Hammer to my friends and family and everybody's telling me I'm crazy to think the Sixers would use the MLE on a big with their PG needs. There is a little truth to that, but no matter who plays the point for this team, it will not go far with Sammy and Smith as the only centers on the roster.


We do, however, have a glut of PFs with Brand, Reggie, Speights and sometimes Thad. I think if the plan is to pick up a starting-quality PG with experience (which I'm not entirely convinced of), the best way to go about that would be to put together a package around one of the PFs.

As for the future cap situation, I don't think it would be a problem. According to my figures, with those three contracts coming off the books, but adding the MLE (probably about $6 mil in 2012) and presumably 3 mid/low-level first-round-pick salaries (for a total of about $5 mil more), the Sixers would have under $53 mil committed to 10 players.

I had the number closer to $55M, maybe a little more. Either way, that's really not much more under the cap than the MLE, depending on where the cap is by then.

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deepsixersuede on May 26 at 8:21
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I!m not sure he is worth 6 mill. per and also am not sure he will be better than either Marreese or Jason.I hope our management forsees Marreese as our future 5, if not than move him for a need.More minutes show more warts so we really don!t know if he can stay on the floor [fouls] enough to be a starter.And the most important thing, of course, is we won!t get either a p.g. or a shooter if they make this move.

Gortat isn't worth 6 million? Just what do you think a potential starting center goes for these days in the NBA? Quite a few teams don't even have one. Diop gets almost 6 million and he's already proven that he has very limited skills.

I don't see Speights as a five, to be honest. He may wind up playing there beside Brand, but I think his skill set is better suited to playing the four.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Sixers need to find a way to get out from under Sammy. Both Sammy the player and Sammy the contract. More importantly, they need to find a way to get out from under him without giving up the rebounding and defense he provides. Without a center to protect the rim and grab rebounds, I think the defense completely falls apart, no matter how many shooters you add.

Gortat wouldn't fill the most obvious, immediate need, but he'd be a 25 year-old center who could provide everything Sam does without the headaches and with less stupid plays. I think I'd pull the trigger if the move is available.

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Joe reply to Brian on May 26 at 11:43
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Agree with your assessment of Speights... looks more like a 4 than a 5 to me as well.

I'd definitely go after Gortat for 6 mil. He seems solid and smart. Out with Sammy.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on May 26 at 12:08
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Moving Sammy would be like when the Phils moved on from the Abreu/Lieberthal era...

Addition by subtraction.

If we found ANY kind of salary match that would allow us to move Sammy...sign Gortat with the MLE...and move Speights to either 1) move up and get Curry or 2) get Hinrich...and then add a defensive coach like Thibodeau...

Wow.

Ugh

Really?

So many things wrong with that analogy i think i might go blind

Completely agree, Bebop. Hinrich/Curry, Iggy, Thad, Brand, Gortat. Not bad at all.

Look at that... I posted something positive and good-natured. Did you see that John? I didn't take the assinine, "I'm smarter than you" approach, like you so often do. Try to concern yourself less with making up for your two and a half inch penis. When you do, you'll be able to post some positive sentiment as well.

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john reply to Jack on May 26 at 12:41
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When there's something worth responding positively to - I will - see how you had to point out how positive you were and then be all insulting towards me - did that help your ego?

The Abreu trade is a lousy analogy for a lot of reasons - first of all - Samuel Dalembert has never been half as good as bobby abreu was - not to mention the philadelphia fan hatred of abreu (and pat burrell) is the irrational stupid hatred that makes no sense, where as sam dalembert has sucked for a while now and has eanred the hatred.

Abreu hatred is the kind of hatred reserved for Donovan McNabb

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bebopdeluxe reply to john on May 26 at 13:29
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john:

I will flesh out my analogy - obviously you did not get where I was coming from...from my perspective, everything that has happened since the AI trade has had - as its intended goal (IMO) - has been to remake not only the personnel on the roster but its mindset as well. Dalembert is a leftover from the LB/BK/AI days...a guy who - other than the Detroit series that made him $60 million - has been truly maddening to watch. Uneven effort...emotional...not a leader in any sense...not a guy who raises his game when the klieg lights are the hottest. After years of trying to make things work with him as an integral part of the mix, I think that it is more important to simply get him off the roster and move forward - put ANYBODY in his place...and see if the people who take his place and the removal of the soap-opera that IS Sammy leads to an improvement - both on and off the court.

THAT is my analogy between Sammy and Abreu/Lieberthal.

We traded Abreu for NOTHING...and the team IMMEDIATELY got better.

Coincidence?

I don't think so.

I think that the presence of Abreu actually held the Phillies back - and it is hard to argue the numbers...since his departure, we 1) made a late run in 2006 that fell just short; 2) won the division in 2007 and 3) won it all in 2008. I think that simply removing Sammy from the mix will have a positive impact on this team...just as removing Abreu had a positive impact.

And I don't know where you get this "hatred" of Burrell...the revisionist history of Burrell that happened last year (where all of a sudden Burrell becomes this "revered" fan-favorite) was a freking JOKE, as far as I am concerned. Like Sammy, I am THRILLED that I am no longer penciling in a guy in the middle of the lineup who can flat-out disappear for half a season...EVERY season. Like Burrell, I am SO freaking tired of not knowing what I am going to get from Sammy on any given night.

It is WAY past time to end the Samuel Dalembert era in Philly.

I get the emotional aspect of the Dalembert/Abreu analogy. I just don't really understand why Abreu was a cancer for the Phils. Was it his apparent apathy? Statistically, he's was a top performer for them, but did he lack fire or something? Was it just a matter of getting Victorino into the lineup (speed, defense) or was Abreu a problem in the clubhouse?

On the Yanks, he didn't make any waves. He's was putrid defensively, but his production was good and he seemed to fit in.

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 13:56
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He was a cancer for the fans who wanted him to break his nose like Aaron Rowand - they felt he didn't 'try hard' and that he was lazy - who cares that he was one of the best offensive right fielders while he was on the phillies - he didn't fit into the mentality the way aaron rowand did...

It was silly - oh and they blame him for winning a gold glove like he campaigned for it or something - as a yankee fan you should know how ridiculous the gold glove is - i mean how many does the great one have that he didn't deserve?:) (I keed I keed)

The fact that abreu AND lidle was traded for absolutely nothing is ridiculous and the whole addition by subtraction thing just drives me since it's an asinine unproven post hoc ergo propter hoc nonsese.


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bebopdeluxe reply to john on May 26 at 15:52
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Abreu leaves the Phils. New leadership takes over in clubhouse. Phils have a parade.

Pretty simple, actually.

Almost forgot about the hordes of people beating down the door to sign Abreu in the first day of FA this fall...umm...errr...ahhh...

What's that you say?

No hordes?

One-year, $5 million contract?

Well...at least Abreu has all those "numbers" he puts up, right?

(and an unbroken nose)

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bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on May 26 at 16:03
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Brian:

I did not say that Abreu was a "cancer"...he was a fine player...but I believe that it was hard for the young leaders of the team (like Rollins and Utley) to take over the mantle of true leadership when guys like Abreu and Lieberthal - long-tenuerd vets who had never done JACK when Spetember rolled around - were still around. Of all the things that Pat Gillick did that built a WS champion in Philly, trading Abreu and Bell and letting Lieby walk - and changing the leadership of the team in the process - may have been one of the most important.

Very similar to the pre-AI and post-AI world...as long as AI was here, guys like Korver and Iggy could never say what was on their mind about what was happening on the team (although Korver would sure infer/suggest a lot of it). The only guy who had enough of a sack to say something was Salmons - and everybody saw what happened to him. Moving AI wasn't just about personnel - it was about changing the culture of the team...saying that what went on in the past simply wouldn't be tolerated anymore...less drama, more accountability...allowing a new dynamic to develop...with a new set of leaders.

It is the same thing with Sammy. Time to stop waiting for the guy to grow up. Enough of the soap opera. I am tired of not knowing what to expect from him, night after night. Enough, as well, of the enabler-coaches, who didn't grab Sammy by the sack and demand more.

Time to move on.

I love you omit Burrell from your 'libertahl abreu haven't done jack' diatribe...as burrell took more grief for a longer period of time probably and fans STILL wanted him gone...

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bebopdeluxe reply to john on May 26 at 16:41
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john:

I am relatively new to the forum, but I learn things quickly...

Bah-bye, bro.

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paul reply to john on May 26 at 14:56
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"When there's something worth responding positively to - I will - see how you had to point out how positive you were and then be all insulting towards me - did that help your ego?"

Pretty funny reply from someone whose style seems to be "I never miss an opportunity to be dismissive of someone's comment." People like you do lend something to forum discussions, but, when they are as sensitive as they are abrasive, they are laughable.

Keep it civil.

It would be a thought. I'd only go with that if you had already addressed the wing shooter and pg shooter needs before free agency(Like trading Evans for Kapono(TOR), and drafting Maynor or Curry). I'd thought that this team needs a legit 7-foot banger, and Gortat could be that next to Brand. Have the comp between Gortat, Smith and M16 and let the best man win.

There are some rumors that Utah might be interested in Sammy, so if you have Gortat in your pocket, that could be an angle to pursue.

If anyone is interested in Sammy you have to explore it. I wonder is Sloan envisions Sammy as a Mark Eaton type. "Go out there, rebound, block shots and otherwise stay out of the way."

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 11:25
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From your mouth to sloans ears. Eaton knew his role, Sam sadly consistently demonstrates that he has no clue what his role is

Shhh. Sloan may be listening.

Sloan may be a tough enough SOB to get Sam to actually shut up a listen- at least a little bit.

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john reply to tk76 on May 26 at 14:17
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Again, I think that falls on sammy these days, he's had more than enough coaches and styles that if he wants to work at it - it's on him - regardless of who the coach is - plus how much time does sloan have really to focus on sam when that team could be in for some upheaval this off season

I think one of the harder things in trading sam is going to be the perception of his work ethic and dedication to the game...that canada team thing was bad as well

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paul reply to Brian on May 26 at 11:54
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"If anyone is interested in Sammy you have to explore it."

Given the dearth of quality centers in the league right now, I think there is more potential interest in Dalembert than Sixers' fans may realize. I've visited fan pages of the Pacers and Raptors, just to name two team pages, where the idea of acquiring Dalembert has been discussed and the fans at least have shown interest. If one puts this past disappointing year aside, Dalembert has had a recent career that stacks up fairly well against average centers in the league - pretty comparable to someone like Erick Dampier and not that much below Tyson Chandler. Plus, like him or not, Dalembert has been very durable and hasn't missed many games the last four or five years. At least the Sixers have been paying Dalembert for full seasons instead of 50 or 60 games.

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john reply to paul on May 26 at 11:57
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I'm confused - since when does fan interest mean anything?

On the court, Dalembert is an above average center. The problem is that the entire league has seen his warts, and his contract is very, very large.

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 12:21
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I'm not sure how anyone with so little offensive skill can be anything but average...but that's a matter of opinion i guess

If you go team by team, you won't find 15 starting centers better than Sammy. That's what I mean by above average.

Friggin' Thabeet is probably going to be the #2 pick, that's how bad centers in this league are.

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 12:26
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That's how bad scouting is in the NBA and how badly height blinds people to warts...

If some GM wants to take on Sammy, more power to him, I don't think 'discussion board' interest is any indicator of real interest around the league.

Real interest is that Stefanski says he shopped him at the deadline and no one wanted him, which presumably includes the Thunder after the Chandler deal fell apart...and they pretty much have the same contract.


Well, did the Chandler deal fall apart because of Chandler's health, or did the Thunder just want out of it because they had buyer's remorse?

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 12:38
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All i got are reports that say they don't like his toe...didn't hear much else myself

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paul reply to Brian on May 26 at 16:07
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Agree that his contract is large but I personally wouldn't say "very, very." His contract is almost identical to Dampier's and, even considering the subpar past year, I think his overall production has been better over the last three years or so than Dampier's. I think if Dalembert made 9 million per year he would be considered a pretty fair value by numerous teams.

I think he is capable of being traded to the right team with the right deal. Minnesota comes to mind. They have too many draft picks (5) to use. Maybe the Sixers could take an expiring contract of a relatively useless player like Brian Cardinal in the deal. Larry Brown has made some favorable comments toward Dalembert over the years. Nazr Mohammed isn't being used in Charlotte. He and Radmonovic would cover Sam's salary. That would get the Sixers a 3 point shooter. Okefor could play more power forward if the Bobcats had Dalembert.

I thought Dalembert performed pretty well alongside Brand early in the year. Who knows? Maybe Sam has a seniority complex being the longest serving Sixer, feels he is entitled to a more important role, but is able to know his place a little better when an established star like Brand is playing up front.

If the Sixers can get Gortat for the MLE, I think that would be a fabulous idea. Use the draft and a trade to get a rookie shooter (I see they're planning on working out the guy from Central Florida who was the top player at Portsmouth) and lower tier veteran point guard. Or, just take a chance on a rookie point guard in a point guard loaded draft. Maybe they'll get lucky like Milwaukee did with Sessions.

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bebopdeluxe on May 26 at 9:59
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Brian:

I am in complete agreement. I think that if I had to choose between moving Gortat into the starting lineup and bringing in somebody like Jack with the MLE, I think Gortat has more impact. Trade Sammy for ANYTHING (perhaps we can get a developmental PG thrown in)...

I brought up this EXACT scenario yesterday on RealGM and got ROASTED...how could I think about giving the MLE to Gortat?

Here are some names for you...Adonal Foyle...Calvin Booth...Jerome James...

Bigs get MLE's...because it is SO hard to find a REAL 5 that can play in this league. Again - if I have to choose between subbing Gortat for Sammy and signing Jack or Felton with the MLE, I sign Gortat in a NANOSECOND.

Again - good call, bro.

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Thr Greek on May 26 at 10:34
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No freakin way dude. This is how we got suckered into signing Matt "Ming" Geiger. Cmon Brian, we need guards! 2 of them, a pg and a sg that can stretch the floor. Let this guy go be a bust on someone else's team.

I don't think he's going to be a bust. If you look at the bigs who were busts, typically they're poor rebounders. Centers who score a little bit, but don't defend or rebound.

This guy's 25, he's very mobile for seven-footer, his rebounding rates are through the roof, he doesn't take a lot of shots, he protects the rim.

If you're into advanced stats, Sammy had 4.0 win shares in 2,000+ minutes this season. Gortat had 3.4 win shares in 793 minutes.

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The Greek reply to Brian on May 27 at 10:11
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Brian why compare Gortat's win share to Sammy's, your better off comparing his win share to either yourself or myself because we all know that Sammy is worthless. If they make this move you will continue to be depressed for a very long time.

Gorat is a good athlete who would fit well.

I would consider a sign and trade with Mil to try and get Sessions (and maybe have to give up Speights) and then sign the Hammer.

Sure, still no shooters and a mediocre team... but that's sort of a bigger issue that has no easy answer.

Or maybe they could send Smith in a S&T for Seeions and hold onto Speights?

What exactly are the rules for a S&T when both teams are above the cap? Do they need to send back equal salaries?

yeah, within 125% + $100K.

Meaning, this couldn't happen. The only reason MIL would let Sessions go would be because they can't afford to pay him. If they sign and trade him, they're taking back the salary anyway. Doesn't make sense. You'd also have to deal with the fact that he's BYC, meaning they can only take back 1/2 of his cap number and the team they trade him to has to take on the whole amount. It would have to be a deal w/ a team that has cap space, a trade exception, or a three-team deal.

And the second half of these rumors involves the pistons wanting to make a max contract run at turkoglu...which I find interesting

Max contract for Hedo...that seems like a stretch to me.

I keep reading they want Boozer and Gordon, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Stuckey, Gordon, Hamilton, Prince, Boozer. Maybe Stuckey, Rip, Hedo, Prince, Boozer would be better. They still don't have a five.

SAM

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paul reply to Brian on May 26 at 14:48
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"Max contract for Hedo...that seems like a stretch to me."

Well, yes, a bit of a stretch, but from what I've seen of him during some of these playoff games, I don't think 12-15 million per year is so out-of-bounds. The guy is a better point guard than half of the point guards in the league. He isn't all that athletic but he can really handle the ball, drive inside, and shoot outside. All that and he's 6' 10" too. Pretty unique player.

Don't the pistons tend to believe in Maxiell a bit more than the rest of the league?

If they do, it doesn't show in his minutes.

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 14:30
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With no Rasheed next year maybe his minutes go up? Who knows.

What would one want back from the pistons for samuel assuming it ain't cap room?

I don't see how it would work out. Unless they were really interested in dumping Prince or Rip, which I doubt.

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 14:34
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If rumors are to be believed, Joe D will be very busy this summer and one of tay or rip will get moved...

If the Sixers wanted to do something stupid, and go into an all out win now mode...

They could try and get Rip- who would be perfect next to Iguodala.

PG: ?
SG/SF: Iguodala/Rip
PF: Brand
C:?

The ?'s can be filled with 2 good-great players by trading away some combo of Lou/Speights/Thad. Then use the MLE for another shooter like KK.

Not saying I would do it- but I'm guessing you could get a very good (but not contending) team for 2-3 years.

Not sure what those to good to great players would be?

Rip for Sammy? Would Detroit do that?

Ugh, Rip is signed for 2 more years than Sammy. This would completely handcuff them. I'm not really a rip fan either.

No not Rip for Sam...

In more general terms- using Lou/Young/Speights in moves that get rid of Sam (throwing in a young player as a carrot) and also bring back 2 good vet starters.

I'm figuring Sam, Green and Evans end up as filler to help salaries match up.

Maybe something like Speights + Evans for Rip? And then Sam + Young + Green for Camby + Baron?

Baron
Iguodala
Rip
Brand
Camby

Bench: Lou, Smith, KK, #1 pick, Ivey, Min guys

Not that exact scenario- but you get the idea...

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john reply to Brian on May 26 at 15:19
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Yeah, rip has a long deal that many found unfathomable at the time if i recall - i believe it was one of those unecessary extensions.

Though it's the kind of deal (maybe with a pick) the sixers would have to take back for sam i bet :)

If they gut their youth for a win now team, I don't think Rip's deal would handcuff them. 'Rip expires' around the same time as Brand, Iguodala and Lou.

Add another couple of good vets and they would have to win in the next 2-3 years and then truly blow it up with gobs of cap space in 4 years.

Agsin, I do not advocate this plan- just throwing it out there as a way to salvage the huge Brand/Iguodala 160M investment last summer.

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deepsixersuede on May 26 at 18:38
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Paul, my issue is how do we know what Gortat is? J.Smith is considered a stiff by some people and his numbers were similar in his rookie year to what Gortat did thuis year, except slightly lower rebounding.They are both 6!10" and athletic.Can Gortat become as good as N. Collison? Maybe,but I don!t see much more than that.

I'n not sure anyone considers hi a stiff - id on't - i consider smith an ok bench player who is not as strong as i'd like with weak lateral movements - but he's got some nice range if i recall correctly.

The problem as I saw it is that people were over stating him because of his absence

I'm sorry, I just don't see any comparison between Smith's numbers and Gortat's.

When you're talking about someone to play the five, you can't just discount rebounding. Especially when you're talking about a guy who grabbed 13 per 36 minutes and a guy who grabbed 7.5 per 36 minutes. Gortat shot a higher percentage, blocked more shots...the only categories Smith bettered him in were assists (by .1 assist/36 minutes) and free throw percentage.

Now Smith was a rookie, so there's obviously room for improvement, but I don't think he's ever going to be the rebounder or defender Gortat is right now. Best-case, he'll be a big who can stretch the floor a little.

I think this debate comes down to personal preference. I prefer a center who can defend and rebound for this team. I think in today's NBA it's more important defensively to have a good center than it is to have strong defense at any other position. I envision the Sixers as having three guys who can easily score 20 points every game, anyone of whom can go off for 30. They don't need an abundance of offense from the five spot. I'm willing to pay for a chance at getting the ideal center for the system, as I see the need, rather than hope that one of two guys on the roster will develop into that. Especially when I've seen absolutely no sign that either Speights or Smith will ever be anything more than offensive big men.

For me, at worst the Sixers no longer turn into a defensive sieve when Dalembert goes to the bench. At best, Gortat steps right in as the starter, protects the paint, cleans the glass and we don't have the same headaches that Sam gives us.

"Paul, my issue is how do we know what Gortat is? J.Smith is considered a stiff by some people and his numbers were similar in his rookie year to what Gortat did thuis year, except slightly lower rebounding."

Well, I don't think he'll be a star, but, viewing his play during this playoffs, he's obviously improved since his rookie year. He's also bulkier and appears stronger than Smith. Considering Diop gets over 5 million I don't think 6 mill for 3 or 4 years of Gortat is too big of a risk.

I like Smith - but what I like about him are his shooting and ability to run the floor. I remember him being a bit soft, though, his rookie year. Too bad he was injured this year because, with his shooting, he could have been a good complimentary player. But much of Smith's reputation for starting potential rests on a very good performance in a brief summer league. Speights was just as good in that summer league and that was prior to playing in the NBA.

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deepsixersuede on May 26 at 20:04
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Brian, My issue is it was a 13 min. a night sample this year.I just don!t know if he is that good.I would hate to get saddled with a five year deal and have him not pan out.And paying 18 mill. for the 5 position the next 2 years will limit other additions, that is all I!m saying.

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deepsixersuede on May 27 at 7:43
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Paul, if they are bringing in Taylor from Central Flor. that could be a good omen. Maybe they will acquire a late 1st or 2nd rounder.


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