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17th, Or Worse

As long as Lawson's there, and we don't trade up, he simply will be the pick. I could see Ed falling for a guy like Budinger in a different draft, but he'd just be surplusage (though he can shoot). Lawson fills a need. If Lawson's not there, Maynor, Teague, maybe Collison - and Earl Clark could be a wild card, as he is just the sort of extremely talented headcase Stefanski loves.

Budinger did really well in the skills part of the combine numbers. Just like Carney and Thad. I wouldn't rule him out.

Not sure if Lawson would be higher on their draft board than Maynor. To be honest, though, I think I like Collison the most of the second group of points (behind Curry, Holiday and Rubio). There's something about that guy, had Westbrook and Holiday nipping at his heels two straight years, held them both off. He's super quick, shot the lights out in college, excellent free throw shooter. I like the guy.

deepsixersuede on Jun 3 at 7:59

Budinger disappeared too much and is too soft for my taste, I watched Arizona alot,one of those teams always on T.V.; he had 1/2!s where you didn!t know he was on the court.He makes Reddick look like E.Snow as far as toughness.It is a shame because talentwise he is a top five pick.Lawson keeps getting dissed if you go by all the rumors,mainly injury issues and recently that he doesn!t seem in shape.If him and Ellington are there at #17 it will be interesting to see which way they go.Brian, I have been a Collison fan, he isn!t a guy that is a pure p.g. but in the Curry mold he fits here because he defends like hell and can shoot. What impressed me is he measured well and has long arms,like Chalmers.If they go shooter first and get a late 1st rounder he would be a steal.

I watched a video of Thornton, He is buffed and can catch & shoot with quick release. Very impressive. Really looks a bit physically like Ben Gordon.

Most impressive athletic measurements no one is talking about is my man Wayne Ellington. Check his strength and vertical numbers. He has always been the guy ppl said lacked athletic ability, but he clearly showed he can jump with the best of them (5th highest max vert) and he is the type of shooter the Sixers need.

John reply to Dannie on Jun 3 at 10:29

Not as important as the things that actually matter like basketball skill.

Rodney Carney was quite athletic

Yes, but the point is that its reassuring when a guy known for skill (shooting) turns out to be a good athlete. Some guys can get away with a high skill level in college and then get exposed in the NBA if they are unathletic.

The same can happen in reverse, but its possible to improve your skill level whereas those fancy jumping shoes and working out can only get you so far. a crazy athlete like Outlaw can learn to hit a 3pt shot. You can learn to cover up your weaknesses on defense, but only so much (KK being a good example.)

bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Jun 3 at 11:38

Good point about how it may be easier for athletes to learn how to shoot than shooters improving their athletic skills. Bruce Bowen and Raja Bell became capable 3-point shooters...while Kyle Korver will never be able to improve his lateral quickness, for example.

If I felt that either Ellington or Henderson could develop decent enough ball skills to be a Hinrich-like facilitator PG in this offense, I would view either of them as better options than Maynor and the Smurfs...

john reply to bebopdeluxe on Jun 3 at 11:43

I found that while it wasn't ideal, Kyle Korver did get better after each off season, he was never a defensive gem, but he did improve...his talent and work ethic trumping limited athleticism.

In contrast, Sam Dalembert has a lot of athleticism right?

Much like 'height' shouldnt' lead people to ignore other things I don't think athleticism should be seen to trump other things either...

I'm not sure Dalembert is a good analogy here. If we're talking specifically about Ellington, I don't think his IQ is in question.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 11:48

I was only using Dalembert in relation to his athelticism, vis a vis, athleticism (and height) ignoring other factors...IQ or not, Sam's work ethic and dedication to the game are what bother me the most (he seems to have none)...I know very little about ellingtons athleticism, i just can't watch ACC basketball when it involves UNC or DUke,

Do you like Ellington better than Henderson? Seems like Ellington is the better shooter, Henderson the better defender, probably better all around player.

I like Ellington better for the Sixers for sure and I've liked Ellington in general better since they were in HS. I've played against them both since they are local guys. Ellington has more basketball skill (John you clearly missed my point).

Henderson was always touted as an athlete with potential to be a complete player. I personally tend to shy away from those guys. I have a hard time seeing Henderson becoming significantly more than Dahntay Jones in terms of his role. He has a higher ceiling than Jones and maybe even Ellington but I just don't believe much in general potential.

I prefer guys with at least one legit NBA-ready, highly coveted skill they bring immediately with shooting ability and efficiently scoring being at the top of my list simply because guys that can shoot are harder to get than guys who can run and jump well. Ellington has that with his shooting ability (off the dribble, off screens and in catch and shoot on the perimeter). When you toss the fact that Wayne also thrives in transition, proved to be negligibly taller than Henderson equivalent in terms of simply athleticism, and for as much as ppl talk about his slender body he put up 185 13 times good for 6th best among shooting guards and better some PFs Wayne looks like the better player to me. Henderson will defend, can be a good transition player but I think he would be a duplicate player to Thad with less overall talent.

Also, I am not exactly sure why the perception is that Henderson is the better all-around player? He clearly isn't better offensive in terms of pure shooting, scoring or ball-handling. Henderson drives more so he gets to the line more. Gerald is better defensively, but Wayne made significant improvements in that area this season and I think he can improve even more with the right training (needs to improve lateral quickness) because he isn't a guy that is allergic to defense. And for Henderson who is perceived to be the better athlete he didn't translate that into more production in terms of rebounding per 40 (6.4 to 6.4) or a big advantage in steals per 40 (1.6 vs. 1.2)

Ellington must've really worked out to get ready for the combine. He weighed in at 202.

Usually, when players are similar in size etc I go for the better defender. This year, I'd be inclined to agree with you. I'd go for the better shooter.

I'm still kind of iffy on the prospect of using #17 on a SG, though. DraftExpress has Ellington going in the early 2nd round, Ford doesn't have him in the first either. Maybe he's a guy they could grab with a pick they buy in the second or late first.

Both mocks have Henderson off the board before the Sixers pick at #17.

Tray reply to Dannie on Jun 3 at 14:11

So again, you can't assume that just because a guy puts up numbers in the combine that he's a great athlete (see Luke Jackson of Oregon and his out-of-nowhere 42-inch vert, which propelled him into the lottery). He's very mediocre off the dribble in actual games.

I can see Henderson covering the Kobe's & Wades somewhat effectively. He has more upside but will he reach it? Of course, Ellington has that shot that we are looking for. Maybe Dannie can comment. He's an ACC guy.

john reply to sfw on Jun 3 at 12:02

but will he reach it

That's the question for almost all the picks, I mean the knock on speights was work ethic, it seems to be the hardest thing to judge (but I rcan't believe how bad some teams are at judging it) and you don't really find out until after their rookie year.

I.e. we'll see how dedicated speights is depending on how good he is at what he is bad at now.

It's a great point you bring out. Statistically, there are tons of lottery picks that don't pan out and vice versa, non lottery picks that become excellent NBA players. I am not one that has ever been overly concerned with what number pick the Sixers have. My biggest concern is that I feel this draft is pretty weak across the board. So, in picking 17th, the chances of finding a solid player aren't as high as they were in some of the drafts that you listed. It doesn't mean it can't happen, but it seems less likely.

john reply to Anthony on Jun 3 at 12:16

However, 'history' seems to be on the sixers side, to a degree, they have done well with picks recently, possibly doing 'better' than their number...(when the coach listens:)

Many think Young would go higher if his draft was re done
Same with Speights

Last year was seen as a draft 'deep' in PF similar to this year with the PG - the sixers did well, I hope they'll do well this year similarly.

Of course, this was when DiLeo was in scouting full time - which honestly was one of my biggest concerns when he was named coach - the hit in scouting and the draft, hope it's not big...it's an important off season - i think an almost 'future defining' one for the franchise - hate for the draft department to be less than fully prepared.

Someone should hire the Suns' lead scout. They drafted both Rondo and Rudy Fernandez late in the first round. Of course, they also traded them both away immediately.

San Antonio has done the best job w/ low picks. Manu, Parker, Scola. I wonder if Tiago Splitter will pan out eventually.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 12:20

I totally forgot about Splitter...weren't the spurs ahead of the curve on the whole 'draft the euro and wait' thing anyway? I think that's a franchise wide thing, one of the best run franchises in the NBA I think.

Even with the luck that gave em Duncan :)

Ugh, don't talk to me about that fucking season. The 22-60 Sixers wind up with Keith Van Horn, who refuses to play for them, so they trade for Tim Thomas. Some friggin' prize with the number 2 pick.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 12:33

Yet (to me) only the second worst #2 pick the sixers have made in the lottery era.

Which is sad.

The Iverson era goes MUCH different if they get Duncan...did dude EVER have a low post big man with some sort of offensive skill?

Derrick Coleman :)

Unfounded Draft Rumor via ESPN Chat #234535039

Hinrich and 23 for #6

I know the wolves have quality big men and everything, Speights and 17 is better right? Would you make said deal?

Provided Curry doesn't go in the top 5, yes. I'm not trading up for anyone else, Harden scares me.

That's a crowded frontcourt for Minny, though. Love, Jefferson and Speights. I think Minny would probably value Hinrich higher than Speights, and they probably should, he's a proven commodity and he's got a decent contract. Wonder who Chicago would be moving up for.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 12:55

Curry Rose back court :)

Who knows - I don't think the wolves would do the trade either - i'm just asking

Still be itnerested to see what it woudl take to get mike miller as a bench player

Dalembert, Speights #17 for #6, Mike Miller and Brian Cardinal! Done deal :)

Thorpe answering tons of Philly questions today:

Ed Stefanski (Philly): Would you trade Speights and the #17 to move up and get Stephen Curry?

SportsNation David Thorpe: (12:56 PM ET ) Depends on what I got in return. I think Curry is more special than Speights.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 12:59

Didn't see that one yet

Do we know if he's worked with curry yet :)

I do value his opinion but do take it with a grain of salt if it's a guy who worked out with (his earlier comment int he chat not withstanding)

I don't believe curry is a client of his.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 13:03

Ok - then that's good - though his answer to the question is kind of weird - curry is the return davey :)

But see - that's the problem as well...if many see curry as 'special' and more special than a 6'10 big man with some nice up side - moving up to get him becomes that much more difficult doesn' it?

bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 13:15

I do that deal in a nanosecond. I don't know if Curry is more "special" than Speights, but he fills a higher-priority need for us right now.

A lot of mock drafts are projecting the Wizards taking Jordan Hill at 5...so, why wouldn't they be interested in a deal that includes Speights? Ideally, we would keep #17, but even if we had to include it (perhaps with us getting 32 back from them), why isn't that a realistic deal?

Why would the Bulls Want #6? Who could they possibly want to piack at that spot?

Thorpe - I'd guess they want a SG.

5/6 - if they're in play - seem to be evolving into the "Curry sweet spot" places? IF so - can the sixers win a bidding war? I'm not sure

Let's be realistic here, I'd say there's maybe a 2% chance the Sixers trade up to get Curry, at best. I just get worked up before the draft every year.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 13:08

I like to speculate but have very low expectations each year of movement - i just hope they maintain the 'we draft well for our spot (usually)' style...the last time i got really excited for the draft is when when someone said "With the 8th pick in the nba draft, the toronto raptors select Rafael Araujo' - i scared all my pets and neighbors with that yell.

Most recent update form Sixerfan1976 at realGM:

"Thad and Dalembert in a package they are kicking the tires on if they can get an elite 2 guard."


john reply to tk76 on Jun 3 at 14:03

"Elite 2 guard" without a name makes me worry.

And this was my response:
I've been worried about a Young/Sam trade for a while. Really disturbing.

Expiring + young talent + picks = Superstar (a couple get moved like this every year.)

Bad Contract + young talent = only a good player

By attaching Sam's dead weight to Thad you are devaluing what you can get for Thad. Meanwhile, just wait 1 year, and Sam is a huge expiring, and no longer has negative trade value. Why would you want to take out most promising young player and devalue him by using him to help you unload Sam?

If you are going to unload a promising 20 year old you want to maximize his value to get back the best star you can. Wait 1 year, then you can package a valuable expiring Sam with someone like Thad or Speights for a superstar.

john reply to tk76 on Jun 3 at 14:08

In fact - i'm almost sure young for the #5 pick would be more enticing than whatever SG the sixers get for Sam and Young.

Look around the league and find the 'elite shooting guards' you think the sixers could get for sam and young...that only make about 10 million a year or so

Who is an elite two guard?

Kobe, Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, Ben Gordon, Manu, Roy, Wade, Kevin Martin...anyone else fit that statement by your standards?

Out of that group, Ray Allen and Joe Johnson are both free agents next summer. Gordon is a free agent right now. Manu is coming off a serious injury. Roy, Kobe and Wade aren't going anywhere. That leaves Kevin Martin or someone that didn't even make this list.


john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 14:09

What do you think about Joe Johnson?

I like him. I don't like trading Thad for a one-year rental.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 14:12

If a reasonable extension were negotiated would you be ok with it?

PG: ?
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Iguodala
PF: Brand
C: ?

PG: ?
SG: Iggy
SF: Thad
PF: Brand
C: Sammy/?

Yeah, I'd give serious consideration to that trade.

Is this lineup a top-four seed in the East next season?

PG: Miller
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Iguodala
PF: Brand
C: Speights

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 14:21

Assuming everyone stays healthy, speights makes progress and the jordan system comes off without a hitch - maybe?

Too many unknowns...I think it's a better 'base 5' than the sixers started with this year...

And honestly, I think this kind of move is really the only kind of 'drastic' overhaul move the sixers can make this year - if they want to try and win in the 'brand' window - Hawks take the bad contract and the more upside the sixers get the better player RIGHT NOW but maybe don't get to keep him too long...maybe some sort of lottery protected pick coming to the sixers would make me feel better?

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 14:15

You know, Joe Johnson almost makes too much sense...yes the sixers get the shorter contract but in exchange the hawks get a real young upside SF that they kind of need and a 'center' they've been lacking...hell supposedly they were interested in sam before his big ass contract.

My gut (which I trust) tells me the 'elitel' point guard in discussion is Joe Johnson, and the 09/10 salaries match up almost exactly.

I wouldn't do it, I don'tt think, but I"m a 'Iguodala SG' believer...

Now, would I do Dalembert and Thad for Kevin Martin and the #4 pick? Hmmnnn....probably not unless Rubio was available at that spot. couldn't make that deal anyway, Martin is byc.

Oh, and Sammy + Thad could bring back a contract of almost $15M, I think.

Bad Contract _ YOung Talent = Michael Redd?

Again, don't over value the expiring contract without looking at the situation - what's the free agency class look like in 2011 - the reasons they all have value for 2010 is because of what's available and people wanting the guys - who is available in 2011.

People though 'good glen robinson, expiring contract' - no one wanted it cause there wasn't much to go for.

Expiring contracts dont' always even have good value if there's no reason to 'clear that cap room'...i hate depending on them.

I just worry that they still consider redd an 'elite' 2 guard :)

I read this earlier on the realgm blog by SF1976:

Boston offered us tony allen and Jr Giddens for Green verbally...not sure what that does for us. Probably nothing.

Can someone explain why we would not jump on that offer?

When did they supposedly make the offer?

The simple answer is that there's no way in hell the Sixers would've turned that offer down. It would've cleared all of Willie's contract off the books after this season.

Oh, and can anyone point to a rumor SF1976 broke on RealGM that actually happened? Did he have the Eddie Jordan signing, or the Elton Brand signing before anyone else? Did he have the Korver trade? I'd just like to know if he's ever had information that proved to be true before any media outlets reported it.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 16:39

He's had insight in the past - long before (like when I wasn't IP banned at realgm) - but i can't think of anything recent where he's been on.

I find what he says is the team's plan very, very, very questionable:

1. draft maynor or lawson (fine, that's plausible)
2. resign miller (sic)
3. use mle on anthony parker or korver
4. trade dalembert

This will put the Sixers over the luxury tax. Flat out, no doubt about it, this plan puts them over the luxury tax and doesn't really improve them all that much.

Highly, highly questionable that this is a plan that's coming from a well-informed source in the Sixers organization.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 16:52

Though if the sixers did all of that it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest - they are a poorly run organization and have been for a while now - 'new blood' at GM doesn't necessarily mean corporate culture changes.

I haven't read his posts in a while directly so I have no way to judge, the only other 'insider' ever at realgm lost his source (a friend on the training staff), the best part of realgm is watching the people flip out on everything he posts, demanding more, calling him a liar, and all in all making my day at work (when i was allowed to read and post) hella more entertaining

Sean reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 17:48

Regarding SF1976:

I remember that he broke the AI deal. He did break that the final 2 were Jordan and Casey long before the media talked about it. He did have that there were 3 second interviewees(Jordan and Casey plus Thibodeau). He has been a fairly good source for some time.

I don't mind those moves, although I hope Miller wants more than they can give and chooses to do a S&T to the West Coast or Miami.

FWIW, he didn't have the Jordan signing. In the coaching thread I saw he had Casey and Ford as 1 and 1a, with Jordan/Thibideau trailing. Jordan because he wanted too much money.

Sean reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 19:57

Yeah, but then there was an update saying that if Jordan dropped his money demands, he'd be back on top with Casey.

john reply to DeanH on Jun 3 at 16:36

only thing that comes to mind is roster space

If they're worried about roster space, they can cut giddens and eat his salary. It isn't guaranteed beyond this year. Basically, they'd be getting Tony Allen for Willie Green, which is at worst a wash, most likely in favor of the Sixers, and they'd be getting out from under Willie's contract one year earlier. Hell, Allen is an expiring deal, they may even be able to move Allen in a deal to move up in the draft or acquire a piece, or even to facilitate a deal as the third team.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 16:55

Didn't say it makes sense - cause it's the off season and all - but it's the only thing tht comes to mind.

I have no idea why the celtics would offer this trade but it's the 2nd 'suspicious' thing that's come out of boston in two days (that allen deal?) so maybe there's some weirdness going on in boston.

I like the by phone comment - if i'm a gm, i'm making trade offers by carrier pigeon only.

I've always thought there was some kind of super secret mysterious "GM ONLY" NBA discussions forum where they could post who was on the market and such :)

And one more thing - "not sure what that does"?

It achieves one of the primary off season goals as far as i'm concerned (ok not as primary as utter things, but an absolute necessity) in that it gets rid of willie green...shorter contracts and possibly more talent to get rid of willie green?

How can anyone NOT see the benefit fo that deal?

Exactly. I mean, what the hell team have you been watching if you don't see the benefit to that deal? Ugh. I'm in a horrible mood.

john reply to Brian on Jun 3 at 17:04

go home, play with your kid, shut off your puter

Worse comes to worse they are made up trades no more useful than the ones posted by anyone else to discuss :)

Brian, SF1976 has been reasonably on the ball. For example Dave quoted David Aldridge talking about a rumored Sixer/Portland deal at the deadline that was the exact deal SF1976 said was being discussed 1 wk before the deadline.

Last year he said the Sixers were leaning to Arthur or Speights (he said more Arthur but something scared them off.)

Last week he said the team was high of Thibs, Casey and Jordan. Other outlets reported the same thing, but SF reported it at the same time or a bit earlier.

He throws out some random stuff- like players working out in Atlanta or predicting signing Henderson, that are not big stories, but show he has at least some knowledge. Sure, maybe he finds this stuff on other sites, but if so, he is at least well informed. I guess you or I could pull off "inside status" if we wanted to, so who knows...

Honestly, I don't care if he is right or not. He throws out interesting possibilities (that he often personally does not agree with.) He is a reasonable and well informed poster and raises the entertainment level around the team.

I would at least like to believe I have access to some inside ifo...

Tom Moore on Jun 4 at 9:18

I get the feeling there's a good chance the starting frontcourt will be Iguodala, Young and Brand at center. Jordan said he plans on playing Brand at both positions and Dalembert isn't a good fit in the Princeton offense.

John reply to Tom Moore on Jun 4 at 9:42

Dalembert isn't a good fit in any offense

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