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I was pretty impressed by Maynor's play against UCLA. They have two of the better defensive PGs in Collison and Holiday who were tag teaming him all game and he still held in there (had a shot to win at last second). Granted his shooting percentage was poor but without him they'd have been destroyed.

That was an impressive game. Only 5/15 from the floor, but 13 trips to the line, 6 boards and 7 assists.

Really effecient scoring from Maynor given he did not put up all that many 3S. Good percentage and gets to the FT line.

Just wish he had more strength to go with his crafty game.

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Real and Speightacular on Jun 15 at 3:40
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I think there's a buried assumption in here that because these guys happen to be the best player on their respective teams, the elite teams will go out of their way to game plan for them; that they'll change their style of play in some significant way a la the poor saps at loyola. I don't see that as a necessary assumption at all.

Anyway, curious where you got your rankings from -- here?

Amazing how Lawson's numbers look now, huh? Maybe he had better finishers to work with (let's assume for a moment, that all three guards are at the same level of court vision), but that doesn't explain why Lawson had such beautifully low turnover numbers. And Lawson quite obviously can hit that three. He's just not a volume shooter like Curry.

Now after this exercise are you still convinced Curry's worth trading Speights for? If anything this is a huge indicator Curry's a two-guard in a point-guard's body. Mad risk.

I don't think that anybody is arguing that Curry is a pure PG...but in the Princeton offense, you don't need a traditional pound-the-dribble-at-the-top PG...in fact, you could argue that you actually do NOT want that kind of PG, as he might dominate the ball too much...the offense is predicated on ball movement and cutting, with the two guards almost interchangable. In a perfect world, you want the two guards to be BOTH point guards and shooting guards...so, we would have a SG (Iguodala) who has below-average outside shooting ability for a SG (offset by plus-passing ability) and a PG (Curry) that has less-than optimal PG passing/handling skills but lights-out shooting ability...

Sounds like the perfect combo to me.

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Dutch reply to bebopdeluxe on Jun 15 at 10:12
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Agreed, Bebop... seems like Iggy and Curry would work well together in a Princeton Offense backcourt.

You're absolutely right. Duke and Oklahoma were doubling Andrew Lovedale, he was really the engine that powered Davidson. Curry went pretty much unnoticed and just shot open jumpers.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 11:54
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No, no, you're right, Bri. Duke and Oklahoma were so concerned Curry by himself was going to beat them, they needed to double team him all night. Oh, absolutely. Read them game descriptions and you'll see how much they tried to double him -- but he was able to chuck up 20 or 30 shots anyway! Incredible! By the way, you're just awwesome with sarcasm -- you're the only one who can do it!

I find sarcasm is the most satisfying way to respond to naive statements.

OK, watch the highlights in this recap, the game he scored 44 on Oklahoma. Watch the shots he's making, with two guys draped all over. I especially liked the three in the corner when Blake Griffin and Willie Warren were double teaming him. No, they paid no extra attention to him.

NC State didn't double him, they just tried every player they had to guard him one-on-one, good strategy. Curry dropped 44 points again and they beat NC State.

And here's a quote from Purdue's head coach after the game: "I thought this was a great team victory for us," Purdue coach Matt Painter said. "Our guys did a very good job defensively, not just the three guys that guarded Stephen Curry. I thought everybody was ready to play."

From the Duke recap: "The Blue Devils defended the Davidson star by running either their point guards (Nolan Smith or Greg Paulus) or one of their longer players (Singler or Lance Thomas) at him. Those combinations kept Curry scoreless until the 6-minute mark of the first half, and he missed his first four attempts.

"The crazy part is ... we knew that was probably some of the best defense we could have played on him, and the score was still close," Thomas said. "So we knew we were in for a game."

Odd that they aren't talking about all the different schemes they tried to use to shut down Steve Rossiter.

And a quote on how South Carolina tried to slow him down:

The Gamecocks tried several defenders on Davidson's star junior. Downey, tied for third nationally with three steals a game, started. Zam Fredrick, Evaldas Baniulis and Branden Conrad all took their turns shadowing the NCAA's top scorer.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 12:57
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Don't get all shifty, Bri. We were talking about two specific teams, Duke and Oklahoma. That is, two of the good teams, I'm not counting the Loyola types. Both those teams ran up 20+ point leads in the first half. If memory serves (don't make me hafta go find it again) Curry was essentially shut down in the first half. Is it such a big stretch to totally relax with that big a lead in college ball and let him have his stupid shots? No.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 13:01
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"The Blue Devils defended the Davidson star by running either their point guards (Nolan Smith or Greg Paulus)"

Unless my reading comprehension is fading, I believe that's EITHER not BOTH.

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Real and Speightacular on Jun 15 at 3:47
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p.s. looking at Davidson's schedule, I'm incredulous that you found 19 "top teams" in there. Huh?

Actually it was more of a stretch finding 11 quality opponents for VCU over Maynor's 4 years. In Curry's 3 years at Davidson, here are the games I used:

@ Oklahoma
NC State
@ West Virginia
@ Purdue
@ Duke
@ South Carolina
UNC
Duke
@ UCLA
@ NC State
@ Gonzaga
@ Georgetown
@ Wisconsin
@ Kansas
@ Michigan
@ Missouri
@ Duke
@ Arizona State
@ Maryland

So 16 of the 19 games were also on the road (or neutral sites in the tourneys).

And I didn't say they were all ranked at the time, I said they were either in a major conference, or ranked, with Gonzaga being the only one not in a major conference, but ranked, I believe.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 11:25
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Ah, so you were looking at 19 GAMES, not 19 teams. Cuz if you were looking at his performance against top teams this year (what, 3 or 4?), boy, he really didn't look too good.

They were 3-3 in those games this season, he averaged 31.5 ppg, 4.7 REB, 5.2 AST, but his turnovers were way too high (6 per game) and his FG% (38.5%) and 3P% (29.7%) were both really low.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 11:48
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I don't think you and I are looking at the same "top teams" at all. But at least we can agree his turnovers were montrously high.

Oklahoma, NC State, West Virginia, Purdue, Duke, South Carolina. Which one of those doesn't qualify as being in a major conference? Stop being obtuse.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 12:51
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Ah, so now it gets personal. Bri, I'm just asking you to be more explicit, to provide the links to the basic research so we can see for ourselves. I just don't completely trust you anymore when it comes to certain assertions or stats. If it's no skin off your teeth, you'll provide the info, if there's something you'd rather us not see, you won't.

Anyway in clarifying this I see I wasn't including two of that list, NC State (they are a pretty bad team -- yes, comfortably worse than Davidson -- they're just not your father's NC State) and, mistakenly, S Carolina who Davidson played post season.

So that's why I had different numbers than the ones you listed. But even if I put in S. Carolina,

I get:

29pt average
45 for 123 (.366) FG
18 for 60 (.300) 3PT
37 for 40 (.925) FT
28/31 (.903) Assist-TOs

So, pretty close to what you had: mad bomber. It says to me this is not a guy you want playing point for extended stretches and you better get him wide-open looks from the perimeter. I am surprised he got to the line as often as he did though. That's something.

"There's a bias against guys who spent their careers playing outside of the major conferences in college."

As you can see, there's a damned good reason to be wary of fool's gold.

I'm done with you. Please stop reading this blog if you think I'm lying about numbers.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 14:07
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Well you've called me obtuse, allow me to call you childish if that's the 'tude you're going to cop, now. I didn't say you were lying but I have accused you in the past of being selective and/or shifty re the stats you do show (when you have a point to prove). If you provide the links to where you did your research, it's open to crowdsourcing and we'll concur or point out stuff you may've missed in your considerations. That's it.

Now a blog network to run, you don't need some pissant like me lookin behind the curtains, but I intend to stick around unless you explicitly tell me to leave. Your call, dude.

Lawson has lower turnovers because he simply didn't have the ball as much as maynor or curry. Literally every possession for VCU had maynor touching the ball if he was on the floor, working to set up his teammates. The turnovers per game without reference to the number of possessions the player had the ball are misleading.

What nobody mentions about the Oklahoma game was that the coach for OU, Capel, is the guy that RECRUITED Eric Maynor for VCU when he was still the head coach, and actually coached him for his freshmen season. He knew more about Maynor's game than basically any other opposing coach in the country.

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Real and Speightacular reply to nah on Jun 15 at 11:21
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"Lawson has lower turnovers because he simply didn't have the ball as much as maynor or curry. "

If you have a link to that assertion, it'd be helpful. I know you can definitely find stats on turnover percentage (hint: they favour Lawson). I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

(hint: they favour Lawson)

Please refrain from British spelling on this site :) Many thanks.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 12:53
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oh, goode one.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 8:06
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Real and Speightacular, anybody who so Curry carry his team in the tournament 2 years ago knows he is a special kid but I agree it is tough to move up using anybody but L.Will. or a future #1. Sounds like you have to get to #3 to be guarenteed him anyway because after #1 this draft changes everyday.Saw that most teams aren!t going to carry 15 players and some may not carry 14 because of the economy so filling out the roster with vet. minumums may not happen.With Shaq possibly coming East Sam!s value has increased for this team again,I hope Jordan gets him to buy in.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 8:30
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Can anything be read into the fact that our new coach wasn!t here for this workout.Maynor seems closest to A.Miller as far as a change of speed guy with a good middle game but I for one want pure speed and an outside shot on our new p.g.!s resume.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 10:07
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No Stefanski or Jordan at Sunday's workout. Not sure why.

Sac is looking for a three that can score, but would Thad and No. 17 for No. 4 and a player to match salaries be reasonable for both sides?

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Dutch reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 10:10
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IMO, unless that player is Rudy, that'd be a no deal... and even then it's still questionable.

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Dutch reply to Dutch on Jun 15 at 10:14
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Oh, crack! Was thinkin' Portland... sorry 'bout that! Yeah, for Martin maybe... can't think of anyone else they have that we'd want.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 10:12
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Yeah...if we get Martin.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 10:08
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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 10:20
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There's no way Sac would trade Martin for Young and move back 13 spots. That's not reasonable.

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Sean reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 10:35
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Martin would be the only player on Sac I'd consider. For the Sixers, that deal is a no-go. Bad idea, Tom. Bad idea. Thad has more value then anybody in this draft with the possible exception of Griffin.

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Tom Moore reply to Sean on Jun 15 at 11:04
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But you have a glut of wing players, with Iguodala almost impossible to trade. At some point, they'll have to trade somebody. I wouldn't do it, either, but one writer had the idea after yesterday's workout.

Unless someone absolutely blew them away with an offer (like Sacto offered us the #4 this season, and their #1 pick next season with no lottery protection and Donte Green for Thad) I want to see how this team works with a healthy Brand at the 4, Thad at the 3, Iguodala at the 2 and a coach who knows something about offense calling the shots. Unless I'm convinced that lineup will not work, there's no way either Iguodala or Thad gets traded.

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 11:27
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Have a feeling Brand is going to play as much 5 this year as 4. The Sixers will give up a lot of points and be out-rebounded (Young must get better in that area), but be tough to guard.

Also, Sacramento couldn't trade 2010 first-rounder and No. 4 this year because you can't deal consecutive years. Would have to be 2011.

Yeah? I didn't realize that. Interesting.

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 11:45
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Yeah, Brian, there's a rule preventing teams from trading consecutive first-round picks in advance. If a team has already traded its 2010 pick, for example, it would have to make it a 2012 first-rounder. It's what happened in the Sixers' trade for Glen Robinson -- why it had to be a future first-round pick.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 11:33
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Tom:

I would think that the body to be moved eventually is either LWill or - as his contract becomes more tradable - Green. Iggy's contract is untradable, and - in this offense - I wouldn't be trading him anyway. Thad's only 20, for crissakes...if his upside is Antawn Jamison, he's untouchable as well. If anything, they guy who isn't "untouchable" is Speights...we have at least three guys who can play his position (Brand, Thad and Smith), as well as a guy (Dalembert) who - for this year at least - is untradable. Assuming 95 minutes for the 4/5, and with Brand at 35 minutes, Thad at 12, Smith at 15 and Sammy at 15 (which is probably as little as you can play him without him simply becoming a DNP-CD machine), that leaves a grand total of 18 minutes left for the "next Amare"...

But rather than trade Speights, we would trade Thad?

That makes no freaking sense to me.

Would we get more for Thad? Of course - he's the better player. But if Iguodala is our SG of the future (it really does all come back to this, doesn't it?), we have WAY less depth at SF to trade Thad (unless you think this team can survive with 25 mpg from Kapono at the 3) then we do at the 4 from which to trade Speights...

Right?

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Tom Moore reply to bebopdeluxe on Jun 15 at 11:51
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Part of the problem is Green has little value and Williams doesn't have much more. If the Sixers want to make a significant move, the only young players they have that anybody wants and have value are Speights and Young. I wouldn't do that deal (Young and #17 for 4 and a player), either, but that's what it would take to get into the top seven, which is difficult to do. You have to overpay if you really want somebody in that range. I don't think Speights would do it.

I think a lot of people are significantly over-valuing numerous Sixers, including Young. Yes, he is only 21 and can get to the rim, but he needs to work on his rebounding, passing, dribbling and outside shooting. He also is still on his rookie contract and will be do a $10-mill-plus annual deal in two years.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 12:39
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You may be right...we may be overvaluing Young...and I think people are REALLY overvaluing Speights. He could be a great all-around player...or he could simply be a slightly bigger, slightly better Charlie Villenueva. To me, Thad has proven more than Speights...he has more experience than Speights...he's YOUNGER than Speights...and (if Iggy is the SG), he plays a position where we have less quality depth.

If I have to choose between keeping Speights and improving the odds that we get the IMPACT combo guard to put next to Iguodala (Curry, Hinrich, etc...), it is an easy call for me. Could either Lawson or Maynor work out? Yeah...they could. But we simply cannot f*ck up the replacement for Miller. It would be a disaster. If Speights is the second coming of Charlie V, it is nowhere near as problematic as if Lawson/Maynor can't get it done.

And in fact, we don't just need a "replacement" for Miller - we need an UPGRADE from Miller. A guy who has NBA 3-point range. A guy who can defend the perimeter. A true "combo" guard for the Princ eton offense who can be both a PG and a SG. That's not Lawson...is it?

He's had another year in the league than speights
he had more trust from his coach in his first season than speights did
big men take longer to adjust to the nba
and quality big men are harder to find as well

no one should be able to come to a conclusion - good or bad -a bout the future of speights in the nba - unless they already had before he played a minute

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Real and Speightacular reply to bebopdeluxe on Jun 15 at 13:40
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If anyone was paying attention, I climbed on the Thad bandwagon when he went on that tear about a month before his injury. I like the guy a lot, I think he's got some great potential. But I'm firmly in the Iggy's-a-three camp, based on his numbers in the last few years. Most players don't hit their stride til their third year, sometimes fourth (and, rarely, fifth). It wouldn't surprise me that his stats for both positions were about even in the formative years but they're clearly better in the 3 now; his skill set just translates a lot better to the traditional three spot. It doesn't mean he can't ever play the 2 for spots, but my opinion is his natural, best spot is 3. And if you want to maximize his talents, that's where you put him. Which means you're kinda choking the development of Thad, who's definitely a starter-worthy nba 3 (we're all in agreement he's not a two, right? right?). So you deal him b/c he can bring back someone of high (equal) value. That's my thinking.

Speights is gonna be alright. I believe!

I disagree with your premise against Dala being a "natural" three, mainly because I dislike pigeon-holing guys based on "classic" definitions that become false choices. Dala needs to play with shooters around him, period. He has "classic" point guard skills, some "classic" off-guard skills and some "classic" three skills. His position is very flexible and needs not to be set in granite

Not in love with that move but Donte Greene might be that player if that trade were to happen. His salary might fit.

Tony Dielo and the scouting staff have done quite well in recent drafts past, as long as they were there I read nothing into stefanski or jordan not being there

I was watching CSN this am and a comment made by a sixer representative gave me the impression it will be Lawson if he is there. The statement that Lawson is very athletic gives me the impression that he would be the best fit for the team. Just a guess and it changes daily as one mentioned above.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 11:06
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I asked Courtney Witte that question -- to compare and contrast Lawson and Maynor. Don't think it's clear cut, but my sense is, as of now, it'd be Lawson by a slim margin over Maynor. Lawson is quicker and stronger, shot a higher percentage from 3 last year and had a better assist-to-turnover ratio. Maynor is taller, smoother and has a better mid-range game.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 11:28
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S.F.W., if it was Thad and #17 for D.Green and #4 I would sure think about it.I am a fan of D.Green!s skillset[Rash. Lewis type] and his length and 3 pt. shot would be a good fit.

Two or three comments:

1. Being on a bad team has its advantages. Willie Green was fourth in the nation at scoring at Detroit because he wasn't playing with anybody. It's just not the case that better teammates necessarily = better stats.

2. NC State is not a "top" team. Nor was Arizona State in 06-07 (8-22!). Getting beaten up by good teams doesn't make you good.

3. "In a perfect world, you want the two guards to be BOTH point guards and shooting guards...so, we would have a SG (Iguodala) who has below-average outside shooting ability for a SG (offset by plus-passing ability) and a PG (Curry) that has less-than optimal PG passing/handling skills but lights-out shooting ability...

Sounds like the perfect combo to me."

Nonsense. Both of these two have, to be polite, less than optimal handling skills. Curry's turnovers would drop some without the ball in his hands all of the time, but not that much. You can't win without the ball.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Tray on Jun 15 at 12:50
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Tray:

Again - if my understanding of the Princeton offense is correct - the "dribble penetration" aspect of being a combo guard is way down in terms of priority...the majority of action that takes place in this offense is on the perimeter. This is not an offense where the guards break down their man with the bounce or do a lot of "drive and kick"...there is a lot of movement without the ball...there is a DEFINITE need to be a great passer (which Iguodala certainly is and - if you believe Bobby Knight - Curry is as well).

There is no need for a traditional PG to pound the dribble at the top - it is more of a "box and one" if you will - with the 5 sliding from the low post to the high post (think of Brand as Chris Webber in this offense)...the guards and forwards in constant motion...using picks and screens and movement to find openings...lots of 2 and 3-man games on the wing...

In this offense, Curry's ability (or inability) to create off the bounce is overwhelmed by his shooting and passing ability. And in the case of Iguodala, I hope that he is spending a LOT more time working on his "catch and release" than he is doing dribbling drills...

Ugh, now you're back to questioning Iguodala's ball handling skills? And again, I said way up top of this post and reiterated in the comments, I took all the games these guys played against teams in major conferences (and I think the ACC and the PAC 10 qualify), or ranked teams not in major conferences. If Curry had played for either Arizona State or NC State and had this kind of success people wouldn't have so many questions because they're in major conferences.

I'd also guess that no one other than Curry on the Davidson team could've started for either Arizona State or NC State at any point in the past three seasons.

And for your last point, do you think maybe Curry's turnovers would go down and his assists would go up, dramatically, if he had a little bit of talent around him? Also, couldn't Iguodala's stats go up even more if he had someone who could knock down a jumper in the backcourt with him to receive his kickouts when he drives?

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 13:33
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They still aren't great ball handling skills. And I understand what you have in your sample, but I don't know why you have teams like that in your sample. If Curry had these numbers for Arizona State, playing against the Pac-10, yeah, that'd be one thing. But that's not what's at issue; the issue is whether Arizona State, itself, is any good. 8-22 the year he played them, so I don't think so.

I left all teams from major conferences in because those are the teams guys from major conferences play against, good or bad. And again, how many Davidson players would've started on that Arizona State team, or even made the team? My guess would be one.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 13:59
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So, let me make sure I have this straight. Are you saying that Player 'B' who put up freak stats against (very) inferior competition is more or less the equal of Player 'A' who put up scintillating stats against the strongest competition simply because Player 'B' had mostly crap teammates? Is that what balances things out? Am I understanding you correctly?

Another thing, Curry seems to be able to run up halfway decent assist numbers. It's not really the case that he was averaging, like, 3 assists a game b/c his teammates could never finish after his brilliant-to-Knight passes out of all-game double teams. The problem is the turnovers, which are completely and wholly and solely his own damned fault.

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Tray reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:10
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I don't know. They lost to Northern Arizona and Portland State and went 2-16 in their league, so I'm not so sure that Davidson's talent level was that much worse. Surely Jason Richards could have started for them.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 12:51
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Bebopdeluxe, I am not looking at Curry as a lock if we got the #4 pick using Thad.That may allow an Iggy/Harden combo or a Rubio/m.l.e. backcourt or even an A.Miller/Derozan backcourt but Thad being traded could change who they target.

Ugh.

Please not DeRozan. He isn't the athlete either Iggy or Thad is and he makes Thad look amazingly polished. That guy is nothing but an athlete. He can't shoot, dribble or pass.

Of all the guys in this draft (up in lottery range) I think this guy is the likeliest bust.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 13:55
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Chris, just saying getting to #4 opens up a lot of oppurtunities but they have to love a player to give up Thad.

Yeah, I don't see trading Thad as a legit option for just the #4 pick. Speights has the potential to be a starter down the road, maybe, Thad's a starter right now and he could be a 20 ppg guy shooting 50% from the floor and 35%+ from three next year. Speights is expendable right now, Thad is not.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:39
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Preach it, bro...preach it....

Can I get an "AMEN"?

doubt this really affects the draft at all, but it looks like we are not getting gortat after all. hedo is opting out in orlando, leaving them with the money to sign gortat. granted, they probably won't want to spend the mle for a backup, but it does a make a sixer gortat signing less likely.

He's opting out, but that doesn't mean he's leaving ORL. We knew he was opting out all along, the though was that they may go over the luxury tax to keep Hedo, but will they add another $11M in real dollars to keep their backup center as well.

Reading on realgm a possible trade w/ Sammy for Mohammad and Rad and 2nd round or 1st round exchange. Any thoughts? Also on Charlotte's gm site.

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john reply to DeanH on Jun 15 at 15:56
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Where did these 'rumors' start? I have a hunch

:)

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john reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:12
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Oh no - not that hunch - i have a hunc that this is a made up 'suggestion' that turned into a rumor - an internet created rumor that doesn't ahve any basis more than a guy messing with a trade checker

Nope, it's from the inside source, who now apparently has a source in Detroit's front office as well. Here's a direct quote: "I know for a fact..Detroit has interest in Miller but would want to shed salary to take him on. I dont know if they will trade him there for Rip..but I do know Detroit is more than ok with the idea of Miller and Stuckey starting and Gordon off the bench or Stuckey off the bench and playing 3 guards alot too."

Anyway, back to this rumor. Vlad is basically a carbon copy of Kapono, except he doesn't shoot as well, but rebounds and defends better. I don't see him as an absolute zero, assuming you can keep him off his snowboard.

Nazr is garbage who can rebound and block a shot once in a while. Grossly overpaid.

This is actually the type of deal they could probably swing for Dalembert. Brown drafted Sammy, so maybe he has high hopes for him. Anyone who tries to make the argument (like the RealGM Bobcats board) that Sammy is not the best player in this deal is a moron.

If the deal happens, it has to involve swapping first rounders. There just isn't enough of a reason to do it otherwise unless the Sixers 100% dead set against going into the season with Sammy, which is short-sighted in my mind.

Personally, I still don't think you can trade Sammy unless you can tell me you're 100% sure you're going to get Gortat with the MLE or someone else to defend the rim. Sammy cannot be easily replaced on the defensive end and just giving him away for nothing is going to make this team worse, I don't care how much of a headache he can be. It's the coach's job to deal with that.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:49
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Agreed, Brian...Vlad/Nazr hardly move the needle at all, and they will hold MUCH less value as expiring contracts (if, in fact, expiring contracts have value after next summer) than Sammy's contract will have. Under the "best player" clause of trades, this one is a FAIL - Sammy is the best player here - and unless we get #12, there is no reason to do this deal.

Do you have a link, I can't find it.

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Tray reply to DeanH on Jun 15 at 16:07
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I like Nazr.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 16:15
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Trade would work within league rules. Sending $23.56 mill for next two years and getting back $26.7 back (assuming Radmanovic picks up 2010-11 player option). Dalembert makes $10.5 this year, plus a $3.5 million trade kicker, with the other two adding up to $12.1 (within allowable 25 percent).

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 16:17
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From sixerfan1976:

two variations of discussions with Charlotte.

Sammy for Vlad Rad, Nazr and their 2nd round pick.

OR

Sammy and 17 for Vlad Rad, Nazr and 12.

Last I heard...Philly was trying to get the 2nd round pick and the 17-12 swap in the deal.

This trade though - does it make sense for larry brown?

How did he feel about Sam when he was here?

He drafted him.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:24
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Doesn't mean he liked him :)

Brian - did SF really say the detroit thing as well?

Yup, direct quote.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 16:21
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Typical Larry -- complained about him when both were here, then raved about Dalembert once he left. He just likes to change the roster and Radmanovic is not a Brown-type player. Would think maybe a future second would be possibly, but not swapping 17 and 12.

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DeanH reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 16:26
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what are your thoughts on the trade for the sixers? Does it help us? Their contracts end the same year as Sammy.

Well, I think it would officially drop us to the bottom third of the league defensively. Radmanovic would help spread the floor, though, and if the goal is to have one slow, white shooter on the floor at all times, we could accomplish that.

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Tom Moore reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:41
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It'd basically be addition by subtraction. Mohammed would be a competent backup and Radmanovic thrown into the already-crowded wing mix. Would think Brand becomes the starting 5, which I think is the plan, with Young at the 4 and Iguodala at the 3. Sixers would be real small, but be very good offensively.

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john reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 16:43
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I don't like this plan without trying everyone out first...or making sure brand is 100% basketball healthy

Can Nazr Mohammed really do anything?

In this draft is there really that much benefit from the 17 and 12?

If they hadn't gotten kapono maybe - but i just hate radmonovic - living in southern california

Two ways I'd think about doing this trade, and neither could possibly happen before the 11th pick of the draft next Friday night.

If Curry slips (which won't happen) or if Jrue Holiday slips (which maybe could happen, who knows).

If they can get up to #12 and get one of those guys, then fine, do it. If you're trading up to #12 to get either Lawson or Maynor, it's a complete waste and I'd cry myself to sleep if it happened.

If this trade happens with only a 2nd rounder involved, then two Eds have managed to turn this team into one of the worst defensive teams in the league without even playing one game. That would be quite an accomplishment. Be prepared to lose a bunch of games 115-105 this season.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:40
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How much do you like Rubio - there is some rumored possibilities that rubio might start slipping due to his working out (or not working out ) - cause he has fitting issues

No way he drops past the Knicks. They'd take him over Curry. I don't really have an opinion of him, to be honest, though. He never really popped up on my radar, Ford wrote a column about him that turned me off and turned me on at the same time. Don't know, maybe he'd bring out the Spanish ex-pat community in Philly and fill up the Wach :)

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bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 16:55
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Looking at the way things might play out, there is a possibility that Holiday could fall to 12, in which case I would absolutely do the deal.

Other than that? Nope.

Not for Jennings. And certainly not to move up to get Lawson or Maynor.

If they are locked into staying at 17, I almost WANT both Lawson and Maynor to be gone by then.

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Chris reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 17:43
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I've been seeing Holiday going before the 12th pick. But if he were to slip, would he be worth it to trade up? He is good defensively but I don't know that he showed that much.

Would you prefer Holiday to Jennings? In the discussions about Curry earlier, someone mentioned Kenny Anderson (and Marbury) would be much more heralded (than Curry if they were around now). Well, Jennings often gets compared to a quicker Kenny Anderson. If you want a Chris Paul type quickness PG, this may be the guy.

I'm not a big fan of Jennings. Given the choice, I'd take Holiday. He kind of fits the mold of Thad to me: Highly heralded out of high school, kind of got buried in a bad system fit in college, but supremely athletic. Plus, I think with Holiday you're getting the best defensive point in the draft, which shouldn't be overlooked. If I'm going to take a chance on potential, I'd rather bet on his defensive potential than Jennings' offensive potential. Neither of them is much of a shooter right now, though.

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Chris reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 17:56
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The reporter at the SacBee watching Holiday and Jennings (same workout afterwards where Jennings was shooting off his mouth) had Jennings getting around Holiday at will. Brought up Jennings was touting himself as a 'pass-first' but he seemed to play like Lou Will. Seems the Kings were most impressed by Johhny Flynn.

http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/sports/kings/archives/2009/06/so-who-won-the.html#more

Not a fan of Flynn either. Little guy who can't shoot. I want a shooter, a defender, or both. Not really surprised to hear Jennings was blowing by Holiday in that workout. Quick guys are going to do that to anyone. I read in Chad Ford's thing today that Holiday wasn't as vocal as Flynn in those workouts either, which isn't really a big deal to me.

I've always thought the Mid-Major argument to be interesting. Look at guys like Bonzi Wells, Gary Trent and Kurt Thomas. What they did in college was ridiculous and then they went on to have solid careers, but nothing like what some had thought. Lee Nailon, Bo Kimble, Rodney Stuckey, Morris Almond are all guys that come to mind that didn't play in the "power conferences." They've all had a mixture of success and failures, but I'd say overall, if a kid can play, then he can play. He might not be the next superstar, but solid kids usually come out of the mid-majors. I'd almost argue more-so than what some powerhouse schools develop and put out.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 16:44
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E-mailed Stefanski about rumor, but haven't heard back.

Cool, keep us updated. I'm not putting any faith in the rumor at this point.

I could get behind this deal if we swapped #1s, Holiday slipped and we got Gortat.

PG: Holiday, Ivey
SG: Iguodala, Lou, Green
SF: Thad, Kapono, Vlad
PF: Brand, Speights
C: Gortat, Smith, Nazr

Of course that would be a poor shooting starting lineup, with all the three balls coming off the bench, but it would have a ton of potential defensively.

Ugh, I'm afraid we're going to watch some bad, bad defensive basketball this season.

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DeanH reply to Brian on Jun 15 at 17:03
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I would think it would be easier to get defensive help, even w/ an unsigned draft pick, than to get a good "gel" with the team and new coach. The only bad apple I see on the sixers is Sammy. Don't you think it is worth this move for our future? Or do you think this is a step backwards.

When I was at the games, I remember many games that Sammy played very little due to foul trouble. I know we had Theo but I would think there are others out there to fill for defense.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 16:57
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I don!t understand Charlottes interest in Sammy. They finally found a guy to match up with Wallace [Diaw] and Okafor has been a center for the last couple of years.They are paying Diop big bucks and we got Kapono so Radmonovich is redundant.A trade that makes both teams worse, lets do it.At #12 they may like Henderson, comparisons to R.Bell and C.Lee are encouraging.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 17:02
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They are turning the corner with Diaw and Wallace meshing and paying Diop big bucks and Okafor hasn!t played the p.f. hardly at all.We just got Kapono so Radmonovich isn!t needed, the trade hurts both teams; I guess they do it.Henderson intrigues me at #12.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 15 at 17:04
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Sorry about the double post.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 17:05
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Stefanski's response: "Sorry. I don't talk about trades--We are talking to a lot of teams--especially before the draft."

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john reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 17:07
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That's an interesting response to me - i mean usually GMs will deny it if they aren't talking and tehn 'dance' around it when they are :)

Hasn't the issue with Charlotte been that Okafor isn't really a center?

Okafor sure seems more like a center than a lot of guys playing there in the league.

I do think Brown is a smart guy, though, and he realizes that with guards penetrating like they do in the league today, having two shot blockers on the floor is a very good idea.

Especially if you can get one of them for nothing more than spare parts.

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Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 20:42
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Sounds like it started in Charlotte -- and from a decent source. Don't forget the Dalembert-for-Okafor rumor from a month ago, too. Not saying it'll happen, but it does make some sense on both sides.

So someone other than Sixersfan 1976 broke it?

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Sean reply to Tom Moore on Jun 15 at 21:49
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Wait, what Sam for Okafor rumor? I don't remember hearing about that one?

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John reply to Sean on Jun 15 at 21:54
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no one did


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