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Trades Reshape The Draft

Out of those guys I'd probably take Jennings first and then Holiday. Jennings has the most 'upside' of anyone (possibly in the draft). That is the primary reason I'd pick him; if he plays to his 'talent' he'd probably have the best chance to be an elite player. He was at the top of his HS class and most of those guys have panned out. If his attitude is good he could be a Chris Paul type.

Holiday would be be the second choice though he's an entirely different player. He has good size and perhaps the best defender of all the guys above. He was supposed to be an excellent point in HS. At UCLA he was playing out of position.

Neither of those guys had injury issues (Lawson). Teague reminds me of Lou Will, Maynor I think could be solid but probably won't be better than an average player. Henderson isn't that good a shooter for a 2-guard and I don't think he's that good an all-around player. I'd rather Williams over him. Flynn kind of reminds me of a better passing Speedy Claxton.

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Chris reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 11:00
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Incidentally, from today, DraftExpress has Jennings as the most underrated player in this draft (see bullet point #11):
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Fifteen-Questions-with-Jonathan-Givony-3281/

I'd go with Lawson, Holliday, Flynn, Maynor then Ellington. Prefer not to draft on potential but I'd gamble on Holliday's attributes. Lawson has just flat out performed the competition in College. I think he could give us what we need(If he stays healthy).

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Real and Speightacular on Jun 24 at 7:26
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If it wuz me, I take Lawson. Almost zero bust potential; not ready to buy that he's especially injury prone. If the Sixers are hell-bent on not taking a point in the draft, then I'd go with Henderson. Very good all-rounder in my books, also next to no bust potential even if ceiling isn't incredibly high and he's from Duke. Both are athletic and know how to play smart ball. Solid, solid picks if not splashy and that's what you hope to get away with at 17.

Jennings is real tempting b/c I think he'll be the closest to Rubio assist-wise, a real special talent for distribution, but also like Rubio, he can't shoot a lick. Not good for this kind of offense. I also like Maynor, and Flynn is somewhat intriguing (but far too risky for my tastes, speed be damned) but I'd duck Holiday and Teague.

Brian, the funny part is we have a chance at #17 to get a better p.g. than Minn. at #5 or #6.I take Lawson, than Holliday, than[ Jenkins,Flynn]. Minnesota could get their defensive big[J.Hill] and their s.g.[Evans] early and at #18 take Maynor, if he is there.Milw. and Det. may determine if we get Lawson because Portland seems to like him and has the young assets to move up.

Ford has the T-Wolves taking Harden and Curry.

Curry
Harden
Brewer
Love
Jefferson

Not too bad. I think if Curry is going to be your point, you need a two who can share the ballhandling load, not sure Harden is that guy.

Bad news/Draftexpress has Lawson gone when we pick; Goodnews/Draftexpress has Ellington going #37 [get him E.S.]

I think Ellington will have minimal impact, and wouldn't be someone anyone had ever heard of had he played elsewhere.

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bebopdeluxe on Jun 24 at 8:38
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Holiday, Flynn, Henderson, Lawson, Jennings...

I would be shocked if any of the first three are there at 17, and would be doing a Snoopy dance in my man-cave if it turs out that they are.

Lawson, Maynor, Flynn

I'm not an upside guy, so Holiday and Jennings (not Jenkins) are not on my board.

Holiday and Jennings before Lawson

Al Thornton was not an upside guy
Thaddeus Young was

Many people wanted Thornton over Young because Thornton was NBA ready and Young had upside.

But this PG pick will be running the team. Not exactly the same as a wing player that will have limited touches.

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John reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 9:53
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Draft the guy who you think WILL give the tea the best chance to win - not the guy who is ready right away - that's just short sighted thinking in my opinion.

Chad Ford's morning report says 'his sources' (the voices in his head?) say that the Bucks focus is keep Villanueva - and that the trade means keeping only one of them

How much better could Holiday or Jennings be than Lawson in the long run? I don't think you lose anything at all if you take Lawson over either of these two guys...and you will still win more games in the immediate future.

Sure they are flashier, but look where that got other flashy point guards.

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john reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 10:34
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Oh that makes sense - that's a lot like people on other blogs comparing lawson to jameer nelson cause they are the same height and weight (but have nothing in common regrading their games)

I'm sorry - you draft the best player available - Lawsons upside is close to nil - he is what he is - he's going to have trouble getting his shot off and defending stronger guards - not exactly something the sixers need.

I'm not sure what 'flashy' guys you are referring to. I've read little aboutl Holiday saying he has a problem, in fact since he was so highly regarded but had to exist 'behind' collison - i'd say that speaks positively to him - jennings nonsense is blown out or proportion and some people say on talent alone he would have been a top 5 pick out of high school - i wouldn't be surprised to find out he's being 'downgraded' by the NBA in a calculated move to discourage guys from skipping college to go to europe - sterns a crafty little son of a gun.

In a mediocre draft with a medicore pick you take the best player available, and I don't think lawson will be the best player of the three if all three are available.

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Crick reply to john on Jun 24 at 10:47
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"i wouldn't be surprised to find out he's being 'downgraded' by the NBA in a calculated move to discourage guys from skipping college to go to europe - sterns a crafty little son of a gun."

Oh god... conspiracy theory. Fan-freakin-tastic. *sigh*

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john reply to Crick on Jun 24 at 11:05
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It's not out of the realm of possbility - stern is really on this age limit go to college thing which is just asinine in its application and he frowned upon what jennings was doing...i'm not saying it's some sort of organized plot but i wouldn't be surprised if teams were down on him for that reason...

His rubio comments were the comments of a stupid kid

Guess what - HES A KID

People have incredibly unrealistic expectations of the maturity levels of 20 year olds (or younger) and then seem to think they'll never mature.

Seriously - how mature were you when you were 20

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Real and Speightacular reply to john on Jun 24 at 11:37
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"In a mediocre draft with a medicore pick you take the best player available, and I don't think lawson will be the best player of the three if all three are available."

FWIW, I'm impressed that you stuck your neck out on this one. I guess it'll all come out in the wash eventually. Once again you're focussing on Lawson's (purported) weaknesses and ignoring his overall impact while simultaneously ignoring Jennings' and Holiday's weaknesses. Par for the course aroun' heah. I don't think there'll be any debate in three years re who's the best of the three. It'll be fun to come back to this.

That's incorrect - I know what Lawsons strengths are and a lot of them are those 'intangibles' that people tend to throw around when talent isn't the best thing to go on.

He's got a good A:TO ratio a shot that he won't be able to get off in the NBA (so he'll have to change his shot mechanics) and he played on the best college team (with or without him I bet) and yes he 'toughed it out' when he was injured - I don't buy into heart, grit nonsense in basketball any more than I do in basketball.

So you don't buy into a guy that will stick his nose into the pile for the ball when the game is coming into crunch time?

I'll say this, if Holiday and Jennings were SO GOOD, there wouldn't be ANY talk of them being available at 17 or even after the top 10. Especially in this class and especially with so many teams looking at point guards in the lottery.

Well, if Holiday wasn't playing out of position and Jennings wasn't playing out of the country we probably wouldn't even be thinking about them in the teens. There are just a lot of unknowns. Mocks have a range of #4 to #20 for these guys.

That is understandable, but at the same time, there are literally hundreds of hours of tape on these kids and teams have had their fill of them for sure.

The fact that Jennings skipped the Euro camp bothers me, because he would have been going against some good competition from the college ranks/euroleague.

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John reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 12:08
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I think heart and grit are the things people go to to describe a guy they like when the skills don't measure up...I think they're vastly over rated

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Real and Speightacular reply to john on Jun 24 at 12:08
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Well, that's not all of it. He also gets to the line a lot (a good FT shooter), a pretty good thief and doesn't get into foul trouble. You also assume the vast majority of his shots will be contested jumpers. Come up on him, he'll blow past you and drop a floater in your eye. Give him room, he can nail a jumper. The intangibles are a bonus.

Anyway, waiting for your list of Jennings and Holidays' faults now ;-)

Why do you constantly try to make people prove your arguments for you?

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 12:21
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What are you talking about? "John" pissed on Lawson (looka his weaknesses!) and short-changed his advantages. All I did was point out that's what he's doing. It happens here often enough.

Guy you don't like: hype his weaknesses and pretend his pluses (if any) don't amount to anything.
Guy you prefer: hype his pluses and pretend he has no weaknesses.

If you want to put words in my mouth about how I think he's a guaranteed all-star, go ahead if the strawmen arguments make you feel better. All I was talking about was your comparison between Jennings, Holiday and Lawson was severely lacking.

Keep waiting, I don't need to elucidate things that have been elucidated everywhere else. It seems you think Ty Lawson is going to be an all star for many years to come.

You are buying into what I see as Lawsons own hype (in fact your comments sound eerily like Lawsons own comments about Lawson in the blazers edge profile they wrote about him).

I think a guy with lottery talent who slides for issues that any normal 19 year old has is a better draft risk than a guy who is picked around the same spot as he should be with 3 years of college playing with some of the best in the game with little to no projected upside but a lot of changes he has to make in his game.

]You think that if both are available the sixers should draft one I think they should draft the other.

Tell you what though, I have more faith in the sixers ability to judge these guys than you or me or anyone else on this blog.

FORD on Boozer

The Pistons want to add several players to the roster and want to keep salaries at or less than $10 million per year. With Boozer likely demanding a deal in the $15 million to $16 million a year range, his contract demands are out of their league. Add in concerns about Boozer's injury history, and I don't think the Pistons will make a play for him.

I'd go Lawson then Jennings. I think there is a legit chance that Jennings ends up one of the top 2 players in this draft, and a puncher's chance he could be better then Griffin. I like Lawson's pedigree alot, but I also appreciate Jennings' bold, creative playmaking, his length and his sheer quickness.

Chad Fords revised mock 6.1 has jennings going 19th and the sixers taking lawson at 17

Interesting. I can't say for sure what I'd do in that situation. For me, Holiday is clearly ahead of Lawson, Jennings I'm not so sure.

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Chris reply to john on Jun 24 at 11:28
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If Jennings dropped that far I'd be floored. I'd also be floored if we passed on him if he were there at #17, especially for Lawson. Steve Smith, the coach at Oak Hill Academy (where Ty Lawson also played) flatly said Jennings is better and is top 10 all time there (though he also said Rod Strickland was his best PG).

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john reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 11:32
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I'm not sure WHEN DX changed their mock - but they have Jennings picked by the sixers at 17, on monday it was still lawson

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Real and Speightacular reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 11:54
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"He played as well as any point guard we’ve had since I’ve been here and that’s been 21 years,” he said. “He played great and we played a tough schedule. He was outstanding and he played as well as any guard I’ve ever had." -- Steve Smith, 2006

Even if Smith now thinks Jennings is a better pure playmaker (if not headcase/headache), I doubt the guy's gonna wind up a slouch.

Excellent find R&S!

The one I saw was a huge article about Jennings (and Smith did a lot of raving about his play) but they just said Smith would put him over anyone but Rod Strickland. Not like that is bad considering the talent that place gets...

I think this may be moot, as I think no way he falls to us, but I think this would be like the Thad pick. Here is the top HS player who fell as he was playing in a pro league and still getting acclimated. I don't think we'd get a chance to get a truly elite player in the draft other than picking this guy (assuming he did fall). If he doesn't go to Italy, he'd have gone top 5 or top 3.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 12:15
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"If he doesn't go to Italy, he'd have gone top 5 or top 3."

I dunno, man. If he shot the same way in college as he did in Europe, I think he makes GMs real nervous and he's no top-5 lock at all. An ball don't lie, JChill's numbers were pretty similar to his NBA career numbers. Besides, we've seen all stick, no shot before, haven't we? Brandon considers himself an entertainer first.

Here's something interesting, Dalembert's named dropped in a column. Basically, Dallas may move Stackhouse's non-guaranteed deal (could be a $5M savings for someone).

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 11:20
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Yeah I saw that, figured it was a throw in name just available big name. On a radio hit on ESPNNews (Mike and MIke, breakfast noise, better than CNBC or any news show) Ric Bucher dropped Dalemberts name when talking cavs big men but I think he was just using available names with no indication that discussion was being made.

Buchers main point was that Shaq really isn't the cavs first choice - mostly cause he's not athletic enough to keep up with howard

1.Brandon Jennings 1a.Ty Lawson. If both are on the board if they take one of them ill be thrilled. 3.Flynn 4.Holiday 5.Henderson 6.Maynor &.Teague

Remember that whole 'secret' work out for Iguodala right before the draft because suddenly it seemed like he might not go top six like he thought?

If jennings somehow ends up on the sixers another 'secret workout' wouldn't be surprising to me

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steve reply to john on Jun 24 at 11:39
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Not that it really means anything but they new draftexpress mock has us taking Jennings. If he slipped to us he would be reallllly hard to pass up.

I read somewhere the Sixers tried to get Jennings in for a workout and he refused. See if I can find the link.

Not that this should factor in one bit, but of all these guys I think Jennings has the best chance to put rears in the seats. He's nothing if not electrifying. Not sure how that translates into efficiency, but watching his YouTube highlight clips, he's an amazing athlete and he's going to make jaw dropping plays on a regular basis.

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Steve reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 11:45
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I agree and I think he star potential is just too good to pass up. Lawson has been number one on my board all along but i wasn't expecting Jennings to be there. If he is there at 17 I think we have to take him. Imagine passing him up and in three or four years hes averaging 22 23 ppg and is an allstar pg. That would hurt.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Steve on Jun 24 at 12:03
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"Imagine passing him up and in three or four years hes averaging 22 23 ppg and is an allstar pg. That would hurt."

Maybe, but only if Lawson wasn't doing the same. Just a hunch, but I don't see Jennings doing better than about 14pts/game. I think it's way more likely that Lawson hits 20pts+ a game than Jennings. Jenning's big skill is the playmaking. Not yet convinced that Jennings will be light years better (tho, sure, I guess he'll be better at it) and it'll be interesting to see who has better A/TO.

You know who else they said that about...Jason Williams...the white one...not the crazy one or the one that wrecked his motorcycle!

I'd be willing to bet that at least half of the guys in this group don't have as good of a career as Jason Williams (the white one) did:

Lawson, Maynor, Teague, Jennings, Holiday, Flynn

Williams was an average, maybe a tick above average, point in the league for a decade.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 12:14
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And wants back in the league :)

Brian's question about picking polish vs potential points to this teams schizophrenia these last few years.

-They want to be young and build to the future. They unload AI and CWebb. They go for upside potential with Young and Speights.

-But they want to win now. They sign Brand to a huge deal that will pay him 3yr/51M from age 32-34,possibly hamstringing the team capwise when their young core is ready to make a run. They stick with Miller through 3 trade deadlines, ignoring the chance to acquire more young talent and financial flexibility, while ensuring the team does not get a top 10 lottery pick to add to their young core for those 3 years.

The only problem I see with this logic is that I never saw even the hint of a rumored deal involving Miller that brought back a good, young piece or financial flexibility. That, and I'm big on actually winning games and getting playoff experience for the young guys. It was painful to watch Hedo hit that game winner over Thad in game 4 this season, but now he's been in that end-of-game situation and he'll be better equipped to handle it if/when it happens again. Things like that are important to me.

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Chris reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 11:56
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One thing I find somewhat funny. We can't move (or weren't offered something decent for) Andre Miller when he was 1. the top available PG at the deadline - and a very good one and 2. was the highest expiring contract for this season. No one seemed to have a 'need' for a PG before the trading deadline.

Now, come draft time, everyone seems to want a PG. Yes, it is the best position in this years draft, but most teams, most years seem to draft for need. I see mocks where 6 PGs are gone before the Sixers even draft. Geez.

Portland dropped the ball big time if you ask me. They only seem willing to make moves at draft time. He should've bolstered that roster for the playoffs by moving that LaFrentz contract.

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John reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 12:00
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I'm big on buliding towards a team winning a championship and I never thought keeping Miller helped them do that - if he then leaves for nothing - then I think he was just a place holder that allowed the sixers organization to be delusional as to how close they are to winning a title.

That's a fair point. I can see why the Sixers are trying to both win now and win in the future. And they have done a good job holding onto to their main young core.

I just don't think you can have it both ways. Its great to get playoff experience, but if the team is headed for 5 more years of 40-48 wins it does not amount to much.

At some point you need elite talent to contend. It is a real struggle to acquire that talent if you are up against the cap for the foreseeable futures, and go 8-9 years without a top 10 pick (4 straight years and the then next 5 years during Brand/Iguodala's contracts.)

So you have to swing for the fences with the mid 1st round picks you have. They have done this getting Thad and maybe Speights will also pan out. They have to do act the same way with this year's pick.

Picks from 15-20 have about a 10% chance of being stars, and a 40% chance of being a bust. I think you shoot for the star and risk losing out on a sure fire role player.

So do they go with star potential (Holliday/Jennings) who might be 2-3 years away? Or do they go with more NBA ready guys who may never be more than role players (Maynor.)

Do they try and fit their pick to the currnet roster, or do they pick the best player and figure in a few years they can make the needed moves to balance the roster?

I sure don't skip on a potential star because he is too much like Lou or Iguodala. That's like skipping on Paul Pierce and taking Hughes because you already have Tim Thomas at SF. That type of shortsighted reasoning kills young teams.

Honestly, I think if they draft Jennings, Holiday, Lawson or Maynor they'll be starting this season unless something shocking happens via trade or free agency. I don't think performance this year should be the top priority though, not even close. If they look at any one of these guys as a potential star down the road, they should take him and they probably will. They don't have a history of drafting the safe guy who may have a higher floor but a lower ceiling.

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sfw reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 11:58
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But they have been focusing on character in their drafts. They really have to scrutinize Jennings before drafting him. Don't need another AI or a Marbury in my opinion.

Yeah, and I'm not sure if/when they've even met the kid. He wasn't at the euro camp, wasn't in chicago, wasn't in new jersey. if it looks like he may drop, they need to at least get in a room with him, even if they can't work him out.

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John reply to sfw on Jun 24 at 12:03
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And again, I'm going to ask which one of you was fully 'grown up' at Jennings age? If you read the Givony information on thel ink you'll see he's talked to Jennings personally and his feeling is that he's a young kid with a little too much bravado but not a basket case (and by the way using Iverson and Marbury in the same sentence removes all credibility in my opinion)

And Givony should know mistakes of the past

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sfw reply to John on Jun 24 at 12:10
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Can't debate with you but I wouldn't want to coach either one of them. Practice?

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john reply to sfw on Jun 24 at 12:18
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Ah yes the old practice retort, blown our proportion and making a come back so far.

You really think Marbury and Iverson are in the same league in any comparisons? Iversons career on the court far and away outstrips marburys nonsense.

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Tray reply to john on Jun 24 at 17:59
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Iverson destroyed the Pistons, set the Nuggets back, and aside from one season was clearly the wrong guy for us to be building a franchise around. He' like Marbury Plus.

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john reply to Tray on Jun 24 at 18:01
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Iverson didn't destroy the pistons all by himself - he had a lot of help - when they benched him they still weren't very good.

Why is it that sixer fans can't remember how much they ENJOYED it while he was here and the team was winning - he's the same guy he was in 2001 when they won the ECF, he won the MVP and they made the finals.

He's older, and slower, and the league kind of changed around him - there was only one way to build a team around him and the NBA knd of legislated much of that out - he is the same player and person he's always been.

What I find fascinating is that I'm sure most of the iverson 'haters' who exist now loved him when he was here and the sixers were winning but suddenly when they were losing - not so much

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Tray reply to john on Jun 24 at 18:05
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In summary, Lawson's essentially a sure thing. Jennings could be really great or be a bust like Telfair, and for similar reasons (neither can shoot as of yet). I think the choice kinda depends on how much potential you think an Iguodala-Thad core has. If you think Iguodala is some kind of superstar and Thad will eventually score 20 a game, you should go with Lawson because, on that view, the team doesn't need to add a great point guard to become a contender. If you have a dimmer view of our core, you should take the risk on Jennings in hopes he'll eventually amount to an injection of massive talent.

I don't think it was just his statement about Rubio honestly John. That doesn't even bother me that he did it.

The fact that he has really shown a lack of work ethic in the grand scheme of things is what bothers me.

1) Couldn't qualify for college and didn't really put much effort into continuing to try.

2) Complained constantly about the overseas life while he was there.

3) Skipped basically all the camps/workouts with other individuals.

There are knowns and unknowns and then the wtf's! I think this kid is good, but not a guy I want leading a team.

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john reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 12:16
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1. It now looks like Derrick Rose couldn't actually ualify for college and instead they cheated to get him in - would you rather jennings have cheated? Would you not draft derrick rose because he couldn't qualify for college on his own?

2. So what - living away from home is tough when you're going to college - i bitched about it when i was 18 - again the kids 19.

3. So what? so did Ricky Rubio - prospects refuse workouts at many places. Jennings has worked out and gotten good reviews when he has worked out and since most work outs DONT include 5 on 5 basketball the reviews he's had from 5 on 5 work outs in europe matter more to me than pointless individual one on onone work outs.

None of your statements to me are big indicators that he's a 'problem child' - I'm assuming you were flaw free at 19 and ready to face the world in all its glory right?

I don't know if you know how to read or not, but the words "problem child" were never in any of my statements.

I said he lacks "work ethic", which is something that he should have if he is going to be a PROFESSIONAL basketball player.

I also lived overseas when I was young and it was nothing like home. I loved it and I wasn't getting paid near the money that Jennings is making. The point is, he is getting paid like a professional, so he should act like one. If working out for teams and working on things like studying are too much of a challenge for him, then why would you want him? If he wouldn't study for school when he had so much riding on his future, then what makes you think he will work hard in the NBA...he surely isn't going to worry about practicing hard or studying scouting reports...at least that is what his past has indicated. And trust me, I was a HUGE fan of his while he was in school and even when he went overseas. But the more I look at him, the more he disappoints.

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john reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 12:26
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Yes you questioned his work ethic - which various reports from folks who saw him in EUrope have already discounted - so that's just fine.

Yes he's playing basketball and it's his first job - and yet he's still 19 - and he's not you - and the expectations on your were probably a little lower - and the scrutiny of your life probably a lot lower either - i'm still betting you made a lot of mistakes when you were 19.

And um, derrick rose, so you're fine with that huh?

Derrick Rose has nothing to do with Brandon Jennings and THIS situation or draft.

No, I'm not fine with cheating. I don't like people that cheat or take short cuts, but that is the way life is.

And actually, I was in the Air Force while overseas, so ya, I was pretty much flaw free, because I was so scared to mess up and get sent home. I certainly didn't have the media coverage of Jennings, but trust me, the scrutiny is just the same out of country, doesn't matter if you are an athlete or a tourist, it is all the same to most. But that is just part of being a grown up you know, doing and saying the right things!

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john reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 13:11
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It seems like Derrick Rose and Memphis cheated to get him into college.

Instead of cheating, Jennings took an alternate, and probably much tougher, route to get to the NBA.

Yes Derrick Rose has everything to do with it because you said you wouldn't draft jennings cause he couldn't qualify for college - you have no idea how much 'effort' he put into it - or how much effor rose put into it before memphis helped him out...

So I'll ask again, would you pass on Rose if you knew about it before the draft?


Has everything to do with Jennings in my opinion cause it's very similar - Rose chose to cheat, Jennings chose not to.

I am convinced that your reading comprehension isn't very good. Again, you are saying that I said things that aren't there. I said that I wouldn't draft Jennings because his work ethic isn't there. I said that included the fact that he didn't try too hard to continue to try to get into school. Don't read words that aren't in the response.

You have no clue about who chose to cheat and who chose not too other than what is in writing and obviously the NCAA isn't working too quickly to find out if this is true. You say I have no clue how much effort Jennings put into getting into school and I can tell you that I know a whole lot more on that subject than you do. Jennings was going to be coming to Arizona, which is my favorite school. I followed that case very closely. Once he failed the test, he chose to get with Sonny Vaccaro and SV convinced him to be a trailblazer and head to Europe. SV is also responsible for the high school junior heading overseas. So the money is what they wanted...to be a professional. They were looking at the quick bucks and not putting in the work needed to get better. And don't use the argument of "they were getting better against pros." It was the money, not the competition that drove Jennings overseas.

So again, Rose has NOTHING to do with this case. You have convinced yourself otherwise though. Debating with my two year old niece is more productive.

And would I draft Rose for my team as an owner of a team that is about making money? Yes, I would. His work ethic has never been questioned and he is quite a bit more talented than Jennings who MIGHT fall into the teens even though he has "top five talent". Plus, the fact that Rose cheated came out AFTER he had completed his rookie season.

Would you not take LeBron since he took gifts? Or Chris Webber or Marcus Camby? Would you not have Ray Lewis on your team after his murder trial? Would you not eat an onion ever again because of some bacteria a few years ago? All unrelated to Brandon Jennings and his situation.

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john reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 17:34
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I'm just following your lead - jumping to conclusions based on available evidence - of course the evidence of Rose's cheating is more persuasive than your assumptions about Jennings personality - but I figure if you can conclude at 19 he's a problem child the rest of his life on such thin evidence I can conclude that derrick rose is a cheat with the evidence available me.

So, Jennings chose to go to europe cause he couldn't qualify for college - reason not to draft him - derrick rose may have cheated to get into college - thus risking an entire institutions credibility - that's ok to draft him then.

I gotta think a year in europe playing with pros is a bit harder than a year at memphis being top dog on a campus that really doesn't care what you do as long as you show up for practice.

And most of reports from reliable sources seem to indicate that jennings was fiine in europe - yes he didn't get minutes - but that's how euope tends to work - young first year guys hardly ever get minutes - that junior dude might not get any either - i suppose you've already decided that he's not a guy worth drafting since he's giving up on high school too?

The double standard about education in various professional endeavors baffles me (this is not geared towards you - it's just something i find fascinating)

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bebopdeluxe reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 12:50
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I hear you, bro...

If it's Jennings versus Maynor, I probably take a deep breath...and take Jennings. However, if Lawson, Flynn, Holiday or Henderson are still on the board...

Bah-bye, Brandon.

I would love to identify the AI haters who have man-love for Jennings.

Actually, I almost resemble that, because Jennings is much more of a natural playmaker then AI was. Jennings is a PG, in the mold of a KJ or, perhaps a hybrid of Parker meets Kenny Anderson with some White Chocolate mixed in. OTOH, AI was never a PG.

Plus, Jennings has a much better work ethic. By many accounts, he practiced hard in Italy and stayed to do extra work. In fact, he revamped his shooting mechanics while he was there and improved his defense too.

Givony, Free Forever!? Is your queen waiting?

Assuming we stay at #17 and we draft Lawson (if Jennings was gone) I'd be happy.

But if Jennings fell down to us, then to me, you draft the guy. How many other guys in the draft are they saying could be the best player in the draft, better than Griffin? Mostly, it is either Rubio or Jennings.

As to that, Ibby Jaaber (from Penn, no less) was asked to provide a scouting report and comment on who would be better. Quick hint, the answer was not Rubio...

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-120/Brandon-Jennings--Roma-Teammate-on-Jennings-vs--Rubio.html


Per Tom Moore:

"The Sixers unsuccessfully tried to get Brandon Jennings, a point guard who played in Italy last year, to visit and interview this year. Jennings isn't projected to last beyond 13th."

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Chris reply to Dannie on Jun 24 at 12:20
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I agree with that.

I don't think (never thought) Jennings would drop to us. I just picked him as Brian had him in his list of who we could pick. I guess DX is saying today he'll make it to us. If that happens I'd be floored.

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john reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 12:22
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Ford also has him dropping today, PAST the sixers to 19 I think

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Chris reply to john on Jun 24 at 12:30
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Even with that I'd still be surprised. If the Sixers passed on him and he was available then my jaw would probably hit the floor. I trust their judgement on basketball a lot better than mine -especially with their draft record- but it would be shocking...

Now, if Chris Wallace was our GM I'd say I'd trust our opinions better. ;-)

By the way Brian, are you going to do anything on here for the draft?

I'll have a post up, and I'll update it w/ the picks as the draft happens. Not planning a live blog w/ Cover It Live, though. Let me know if you are, I'll definitely be there.

I was thinking about it.

If others are interested in it, I'll do it again. I enjoyed it last year...until the Pacers traded Jerryd Bayless away!

Ford will try his chat again at 10 AM Pacific time today - maybe someone gets lucky and finds out why he's sliding Jenning so far

This Lawson vs Jennings debate brings up some interesting questions. I recently read an article about the dearth of all-star point guards on recent championship teams. The only two players mentioned were Chauncey and T. Parker (Dwade is SG). The writer used this to point out that if you have a very good wing or big man (Iguodala and Brand anyone?), you can win with a Derek Fisher type of point guard. And Lawson does remind me of Fisher.

However, the league is changing and the emphasis on point guard play makes Jennings very tempting. I thought John made a very good argument for drafting Jennings: Mediocre pick in a mediocre draft. If we're close to contending (which we are not), then yeah, draft for need. But if you have the chance to hit a home run with Jennings, then you go for it.

We could have drafted a 'polished' big man last year, but instead rolled the dice with Speights at 14. I don't see how this year is any different.

Jennings-Lawson-Holiday

Brian, why do you like Holiday so much? I'm assuming there is more to it than size and athleticism?

I think he's going to be the best guard defender in the draft and his size/strength/quickness combo is really appealing to me. He really impressed me in the combine, from what I saw. Looked like a power forward compared to the points he was working out with, and had a really nice handle too.

Even though he apparently got ate up by Stephen Curry one-on-one in the New York workout? What happens when he goes up against equally as good more athletic perimeter players?

I just think he is 100% potential with little proven at either guard position. Not his fault entirely, he didn't get a chance to run the show in college. But he didn't fair well off the ball either.

For the Sixers seems like a player in that athlete/defender/non shooter mold that we don't exactly need right now.

I think this says more about Curry than Holiday :)

Have you seen this Nando De Colo kid? 6'5 point from France I believe.

People are saying him and Rodrique Beaubois could be the steals of the draft.

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deepsixersuede reply to The GM on Jun 24 at 21:22
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I believe they shared the same backcourt.

I think I heard he wowed people at eurocamp.

Ford avoided a pretty straight forward sixer question and threw out that the Raptors would consider moving Jose Calderon.

That was interesting to me, I like Calderon

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Chris reply to john on Jun 24 at 13:52
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With his shooting ability (50+% FG, 40+% 3FG, 90+% FT) combined with his A:TO ratio (led the league year before last) I think he'd be a fabulous fit here. He'd get a lot of open looks and opponents would definitely have to respect his shot.

Once again, I'd be astonished if they moved him (at least, for what we could give).

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john reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 13:55
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No offense to Brain - but he's a guy I'd give up Speights for :)

I wanted him last year, was heart broken (ok not really but still) to find out that he was unresctricted

That doesn't defend me in the least. He was the guy I wanted most last Summer when I thought Brand wasn't opting out.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 14:26
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He was first on my list cause I thought brand was an impossbility - then i found out he was a restricted so i was bummed there...but if he's really available i'd give up speights - i might even include 17 as well - but i'm a sucker

Ford Orders sixers interesting

Lawson, Maynor, Jennings, Teague

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john reply to john on Jun 24 at 14:01
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interesting should be interest

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Sean reply to john on Jun 24 at 14:27
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I'd have Jennings and Lawson tied with Maynor pulling up the rear. But that is just me. Swing for the home run!

Marc Stein with some interesting tidbits that could involve sixers

1. Cavs/Suns need a 3rd team to get the shaq deal done - suns would need a 'servicable' big man - I know one :)

2. Reggie Miller says Jarret Jack or TJ Ford could be traded this off season to make room for pacers PG draft pick.

3. Camby available from Clips because no one wants kaman or randolph without the #1 pick - no mention of what clips want for camby.

4. Pistons don't really want boozer...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=TradeChatter-090624

Kate Fagan chat - some interesting and some ridiculous things

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/deep-sixer/Live_Chat_Wednesday_2_pm_.html

ESPN is reporting Crawford to the Hawks for Acie Law and Speedy Claxton. Hopefully GSW sees Law as their point of the future and they take Jordan Hill or some other non-PG.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 16:10
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Interesting - very busy couple of days - hope tomorrow if fun.

I wonder is ESPN will put the draft on ESPN360 so i can watch from work - watching the soccer match right now - pretty cool

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 16:23
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The latest and much-maligned nbadraft.net mock has GSW taking Hill. Jennings to PHX would be an explosive combo for them.

The Crawford deal doesn't seem to make much sense on its face. Law is terrible.

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Tom Moore on Jun 24 at 16:30
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Sixers repeatedly tried to get Jennings in for a workout and couldn't get it done, according to Courtney Witte. Witte went to the Eurocamp to see him work out and Jennings decided not to show. Still, Witte told me he thinks the Sixers know enough to take him (if he's available and they decide he's the best option at 17).

Not sure how Acie Law can be 'terrble' as he's only in his second year and has averaged slightly more than 10 minutes per game in 111 games.

He's worth a risk if he can get some time and develop into something. Claxton is kind of terrible too.

With the new rookie deals - when can the warriors release law - is it after 3rd year now?

Does Speedy Claxton really get paid almost the equivalent of jamal crawford - that's just bad all around

Why does Atlanta make this trade? It seems kind of, well, dumb.

Insurance in case Bibby leaves? He doesn't make them better, not at all.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 16:45
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He's less of a point guard than Bibby and with Johnson it just seems to not fit on the roster.

Claxton was an insurance injury covered and law minimal costs - this just is silly to me - i wonder what the hawks motivation was

They're looking for a replacement for Joe Johnson so they can trade him for Dalembert :)

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 16:49
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Oh now - see - that's just mean

I'm surprised not to see a pick involved in this deal though - it really seems like the hawks are just doing the warriors a favor

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Tom Moore on Jun 24 at 16:34
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Hearing the price is still too high for the Sixers to move up from No. 17. The plan remains to take the best G available.

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john reply to Tom Moore on Jun 24 at 16:34
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If Kate Fagan is to be believed, the sixers could move up and obtain a second round pick if they were willing to part with louis williams.

I'd be sad if they thought that was 'too much'

Yeah, I saw that in the chat as well. She sort of clarified later, but initially said they could only move up if they were willing to part w/ Speights, Thad or Lou. I swallowed my gum when I saw Lou's name.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 16:42
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I was wondering if she just threw lous name in there - she said 'young guys' and then put those names in parantesis. I was trying to giver her the benefit of the doubt but then she said that the sixers would probably have to trade one of thad and iguodala in the future.

She also thinks willie green is a 15 MPG player :)

Yeah, I had some issues with a couple things she said.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 16:48
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I got a couple comments in.

I had some issue with a couple things a couple fans said regarding Iguodala as well :)

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Chris reply to john on Jun 24 at 17:20
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I'm bothered by "Thad or Iggy must go since they play the same position" meme.

To me, when did they really try Iggy at the 2 with other things being constant? Last year, it was only at the beginning when they were having issues integrating Brand alone. I hardly consider that a fair trial with Iggy at the 2.

Let's try a couple thought experiments. If the Sixers would acquire Calderon with his shooting prowess I think Iggy could easily be a 2. Possibly also Lawson if his shooting is as good as some people say. In one of the Draft Express articles they were talking about Jennings and Lawson would unbelievable on a running team that had athletic wings. So, say the Sixers get either one of them. Who in the league would be able to run with that?
That isn't even counting the work Thad and Iggy have been doing on their outside shots (both are hard workers).

I think Iggy is one of the better all-around players in the league right now and Thad, I think, is becoming very strong scorer with sort of a Carmelo lite game (strong shooter, driving to the hole and a good post game). If Thad ever gets to the line more often he'll be a near elite player too. If you would put Thad on Memphis and say you are the primary scorer I think he would better Gay's numbers.

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john reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 17:36
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What would the sixers have to give up to get Calderon is the problem (if he's really on the market, I don't buy that he is) - I mean - Speights for sure - probably the 17 - and something else, besides isn't he a BYC - he just signed his deal last year didn't he?

They'd have to do it after July 1, or find another team to involve. Lou Williams, Speights, whoever they pick at #17 and Willie? That would match up salary-wise, but there's absolutely no way TO makes that move. I just don't see a package they can put together, unless TOR is suddenly interested in Dalembert. Dalembert + Thad for Calderon + Humphries would probably work. Save them money, give them a sick, young wing. I don't know if I'd do that deal, though.

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Chris reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 17:44
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No one on this team is untouchable with the right deal but I'd only trade Iggy or Thad as a last resort for a blockbuster type deal (like as part of some package for LeBron, Chris Paul, etc).

I love Calderon's game but wouldn't want to put Thad in the package for him. I'd like Calderon to play with Thad and Iggy.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 17:45
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I don't want to give up thad for calderon - i don't like plugging one hole by creating another - dalembert and speights maybe? A center that isn't a soft gooey euro and a 'back up' in case speights leaves? Sure it decimates the sixers front court - but maybe not so terribly and can still use MLE on Gortat?

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 17:53
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Oh yeah

how's this for a kick in the pants.

Sam makes more than Calderon and Humphries combined next season

Salaries don't work

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john reply to john on Jun 24 at 18:03
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If you add marcus banks (3 for 2 and his contract is 3 years longer) - it works

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Chris reply to john on Jun 24 at 18:09
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That blows. I'm looking for a way the Sixers do keep Iggy and Thad.

Championship teams need (at least) 2 elite players. Is Iggy good enough to play on a championship team right now? Absolutely.

I think Thad is close. He needs to work on 1. his outside shot 2. getting to the line and 3. defense. If he improves any of those two noticeably he becomes near-elite. If he can do all three, he is a going to be an absolute monster. He has the raw ingredients (athleticism, work ethic, good attitude and intellect) to be able to improve any of those. As it is, he is *already* as good as Gay who is bandied about as something special. Don't believe me? Look at this:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=gayru01&y1=2009&p2=youngth01&y2=2009

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Sean reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 19:12
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I think Thad's issue with drawing fouls stems from the fact that his go-to move(that spinning hook) is not something that will produce a foul, unless he learns a shot fake with it or something

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Chris reply to Sean on Jun 24 at 19:24
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He better start working on shot faking then. ;-)

Near the end of the year (before ankle sprain) when Thad got to the line 5+ times (not unreasonable with his athleticism) he'd be in the mid-high 20's. One problem Thad had last year is Miller took a lot of shots for a passing point guard. I recall they had a thing on a stat website that showed Andre Miller had more 20 shot games than Chris Paul, Jason Kidd and Chauncey Billups *combined*.

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Sean reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 21:17
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Wow, did not realize that. I almost think that with a Lou/Dala guard tandem, Thad would get more shots.

:-)

Personally, I think Thad is miles ahead of Gay right now. No way I'd trade him for Rudy straight up. More efficient offensive player, better defensive player, better motor, smarter. Gay has a little over an inch on him and a longer wingspan, that's about his only advantage in my eyes.

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Chris reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 22:15
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Brian,

I'm with you on Thad vs. Gay 100%.

I put that link as it seems there is a perception Gay is a burgeoning superstar and Thad is so-so and could be traded for garbage. Thad is very close to being a 2nd foundational piece for us. Other than Durant, Thad is probably the 2nd best player from his draft class (maybe excepting Oden). Green and Thorton score slightly higher (about 1 ppg) but Thad is way more efficient and much tougher defensively than either of those guys. Oh, Iggy and Thad are both near the top of the league in adjusted +/- (10th and 11th respectively).
http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?&year=2008-2009

Ed (S) and Eddy (J) should figure a way to hold onto both those guys.

You hit the nail on the head. Those two are the future of this franchise, which is why I think it's crucial you get the pieces to fit around them, if at all possible. Stephen Curry, being the ideal in my mind.

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Chris reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 22:31
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I'd not complain with Curry but it'll be difficult to move up to get him. Tom (Moore) was indicating teams want young talent (namely Thad) to move up. I think we could go up a few picks to maybe Charlotte or Phoenix range with Lou Williams but Curry would be long gone. At that range, we'd have a chance of Holiday, Jennings or Henderson (all are expected to go around there).

No interest in Henderson.

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Chris reply to john on Jun 24 at 17:41
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Calderon did sign last year. I'm not sure what the rules are for BYC.

I don't know a great deal about Toronto's needs but I think they are worried about a replacement for Bosh (since he'll probably be a FA) so Speights would fit. I know they have a weakness at center (or PF depending on if they did play Bosh at C). Sammy D would be an upgrade there. Not sure they'd like his contract there. Would they have an interest in Smith? Probably not after his knee surgery. They'd have to see something (him play well) first.

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john reply to Chris on Jun 24 at 17:51
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Jinx, you owe me a coke

Mr Moore

Have you heard any of the following involving Sam Dalembert?

Bobcats? Cavs? Mavs?

John here is Chad Fords update on that topic as of 5:23 today:

A number of reports have surfaced over a potential Bobcats-Sixers trade that would send Samuel Dalembert and the No. 17 pick to Charlotte for Nazr Mohammed, Vladimir Radmanovic and the No. 12 pick.

While I was able to confirm that the Bobcats indeed made the pitch, the Sixers just as quickly shot it down.

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john reply to Dannie on Jun 24 at 18:04
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So - the sixers are trying to trade Dalembert and they aren't willing to give him away.

Now i want to know if they made a counter offer or just looked at the bobcats roster and kind of vomited a little :)

I am very curious why they didn't do that deal. To me the deal is better by not swapping picks rather getting the Bobcats 40th pick and hoping to get lucky with Ellington or Green falling there. Get a point at 17 and shooter/shooting guard at 40.

I wonder if them turning it down has to do with increase in salary that puts them closer/over the luxury tax if they indeed really want to resign Andre Miller.

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john reply to Dannie on Jun 24 at 18:17
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Or has to do with the fact that as sad as it is - Sam is better than Nazr defensively?

I wonder if this deal was suggested before or after the Kapono deal? I wonder if that had any bearing

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Tom Moore on Jun 24 at 17:00
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Only something about the Bobcats 10 days or so ago. That's it.

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john reply to Tom Moore on Jun 24 at 17:03
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Cripes - not bobcats - i meant the bucks :)

But that's kind of what i figured on the other two :)

1. Blake Griffin
2. James Harden
3. Hasheem Thabeet
4. Ricky Rubio
5. Jordan Hill
6. Tyreke Evans
7. Stephen Curry
8. Jonny Flynn
9. Demar DeRozan
10. Jrue Holiday
11. Gerald Henderson
12. Brandon Jennings
13. Tyler Hansbrough
14. Terrence Williams
15. Austin Daye

I think Austin Daye is guaranteed to be the last one in there - no?

Interesting comment by Smallwood today; Something about Meeks intrigued the Sixers during his workout.He may be their D.Jordan for this year.

I'm hoping for Dionte Christmas if they can get a 2nd rounder. He's a very underrated player I'd take hime over ellington.

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Tom Moore on Jun 24 at 18:53
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Would think Meeks is a possibility if the Sixers can acquire a second-rounder and he's still on the board (assuming Sixers get PG at 17).

I'm reposting this at the bottom; posted it in reply to John in error.

In summary, Lawson's essentially a sure thing. Jennings could be really great or be a bust like Telfair, and for similar reasons (neither can shoot as of yet). I think the choice kinda depends on how much potential you think an Iguodala-Thad core has. If you think Iguodala is some kind of superstar and Thad will eventually score 20 a game, you should go with Lawson because, on that view, the team doesn't need to add a great point guard to become a contender. If you have a dimmer view of our core, you should take the risk on Jennings in hopes he'll eventually amount to an injection of massive talent.

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Chris reply to Tray on Jun 24 at 19:10
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Interesting perspective.

I'm a little dubious about labeling anyone a 'sure thing'.
I'd choose Jennings over Lawson if he was still available (for the upside) but if the Sixers were to get either Lawson or Jennings I'd be well pleased.

As to the potential of the Iggy / Thad core, Iggy is already an elite type talent and Thad is knocking on the door (see the post a few above that shows a link showing Thad is already as good as Rudy Gay). Give Thad a year or so, with his work ethic, he'll be better.

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John reply to Tray on Jun 24 at 21:49
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I think instead of sure thing i kept thinking 'known quantity' with Lawson - you know what you're getting already and it's not likely you'll get a lot more

Supposedly some of the late first round picks might be up for sale - they cost more (3 mil) and obviously it's a guaranteed contract - but if the sixers can't find a 2nd round pick to buy I think comcast should pony up the 3 mil for, say, the lakers pick.

Rumor on hoopshype says top 10 eastern conference team [Toronto?] has interest in Outlaw of Portland.If Holliday is there at #9,Toronto is rumored to like him, maybe they take him and move Calderon for Outlaw and Blake, the money is pretty close, I believe.

Brian and John, remember our discussion about behind the door deals, seems like Ok. City is working on one for D.Lee, a guy who is restricted.Drafting Rubio for the purpose of trading him after the draft for Lee. I guess it can happen.

Yeah I read that and there's so many holes in that.
The first one being that Lee has to want to go to oklahoma city and agree to terms on a deal which he can't do until July 1st.

Yeah, the Knicks don't own the rights to Lee, he's a restricted free agent. He'd have to agree to go there.

Do you guys think they wouldn!t acquire a late 1st rounder with signing Miller in mind? I hate the mixed signals,like tk76 said. Get 2 young guards and go from there.

I don't think they'd pay 3 million to get a late first rounder if one were for sale...

I think they'd be more likely to pay for a second rounder. The guaranteed contract is a killer and is there really that much of a difference in the talent between say #25 and #35 in this draft?

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 19:45
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But there' might be an availability problem - 2nd round picks are actually 'better' this year because of the non guarantee.

BTW - NBA mouth piece talks brandon jennings and indicates two 'nightmare' scenarios to me which seem beyond the realm of possibillity but pretty handy if you're trying to scare other kids :)

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jo-jennings062409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Not much talent wise ,but tougher to get probably till mid-second.

I think they'll be able to get a second rounder. How many picks does Minny have, total? They can't possibly use them all.

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john reply to Brian on Jun 24 at 19:48
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6 - the t'wolves have 10% of the picks in the draft...i read it this morning :)

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deepsixersuede on Jun 24 at 21:18
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John, interesting article; I think it helps him twofold. 1]it helps him mature being away from home and concentrating on nothing but basketball 2]he drops slightly in the draft which gives him the preverbial chip on his shoulder which pushes him to prove the other teams wrong.I wonder how Jordan influences our new p.g. .I thought Mo had a good effect on L.Will.,will Jordan do the same.

NY Post rumor this morning

According to the same source that disclosed Terry Porter was about to be fired as Suns coach, the Rockets are leaning toward swapping Tracy McGrady's expiring $22M contract, Carl Landry and Aaron Brooks for Leandro Barbosa and Stoudemire, who owns an escape clause after next season and is demanding an extension this summer to waive it


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