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Take a Deep Breath

About Willie,
I hope he was just saying that to put pressure on Jrue. Either that or Jordan is pressured by the front office to give Willie minutes (because for some reason they decided they like him).
You`re right, though. I think they will give him more minutes than Ivey, and he may detract from the amount of experience Jrue can get this season. Of course I don`t think this is sound coaching, but I hope Jordan does not act on his thoughts after seeing WG screw up on crucial plays during the season. And for the love of god, let`s hope it`s not a Charlie Manuel to Brad Lidge type of ordeal.

I saw the quote about Willie and it makes me shudder. This is the guy written up in Wages of Wins as the least productive starter in the league a few years back (yes, he is specifically mentioned by name).

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/the-left-tail-of-the-talent-distribution-in-the-nba/

You might not agree with Berri's ideas but to get flagged for that isn't a very good sign. Maybe coaches look at Willie and see one of the scrappy, high energy, do anything players they tend to love. I don't see it (Reggie Evans was more that way) but there has to be some attraction.

I know nothing about Rashad but I'd like to make a comment about Stromile Swift. The guy is an incredible athlete for his size but he has absolutely zero basketball IQ or work ethic (even compared to Sammy). He's frustrated every team he has been on. I can see the fit for him as far as running the floor with the rest of our athletes but I'd rather have someone canny, who puts out a decent effort and makes good decisions.

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Real and Speightacular on Oct 1 at 7:16
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Re Willie quote, the main reason it should make you shudder is because obviously this mid first round pick, this omg-we-lucked-into-a-high-lottery-baller guy, still can't impress the coach enough to place him ahead of willie. There was already someone ahead of Jrue in the rotation to chase (lou). I mean, this guy (jrue) is supposed to be challenging for the starting role, right? Having someone else to clamber over (Willie Green at that) is not "motivation," it's a sign that this kid still has a looong way to go.

FWIW, Willie, even as a shooting guard, has the best A/TO ratio of all these jokers. In this system, he might work out better if Jordan places some premium on taking care of the ball.

As for Sam, it's not time to freak just yet. The touches in this system don't mean that you're supposed to shoot automatically. You can actually have the ball passed to you and you can pass it on to get to the best/easiest opportunity. Like I said some time ago, I think Sam just wants to feel involved on the offensive end, not necessarily like he needs to take 20 shots a game.

Let's not hyperventilate just yet. Howsabout we get some reports on how he's actually playing first?

...still can't impress the coach enough to place him ahead of willie.

Still? We were 2 days into training camp when this quote was made. The alarming thing for me isn't that Jrue isn't ahead of Willie, in my mind, it's that Willie is basically being handed a role he doesn't deserve. Like I said, I expect Jrue to take the minutes from him, but so much for coming into this with an open mind.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Oct 1 at 16:34
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Brian this is your post (and site), but you can't have it both ways. Either this is something to be alarmed about, which is what your post clearly suggests, or it isn't.

"I'm all for motivating Jrue and making him earn his minutes, but this is just absurd."

Re Jrue, I'm reacting mainly to that bit. I'm definitely keeping an open mind, but alls I'm suggesting is that Jordan's move seems to more bolster my concerns about this kid than deflate them. But, as the others have said, it's early yet.

I have an open mind re Sammy, too. I'm hopeful he can get it (or enough of it).

Or maybe they're just trying to increase willie greens trade value

to make any conclusions about a kid who can't legally drink yet 3 days into his first professional training camp without any comments about him is behind myopic - it's magoo like

I'm not trying to have it both ways. The distinction I'm making is that you're saying Jordan favors Green because Jrue has under-performed. I'm worried that Jordan has come into camp with an inflated opinion of who and what Willie Green is, regardless of how either Green or Jrue have played up to this point.

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jsmoove reply to Brian on Oct 1 at 16:54
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But if you are expecting "Jrue to take the minutes from him..", then that is not so much of an open mind either is it?

You already have an expectation, based on nothing more than pre-draft projections. Almost a christening the player before he ever steps on the floor type of thing.

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johnmagee reply to jsmoove on Oct 1 at 17:18
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He's saying that he's better than willie green.

you could say that about most players in the NBA

I think we're getting a little confused. The open mind part of my comment was directed at Eddie Jordan. I wasn't saying I had an open mind. My mind is made up about Willie. Basically, if Jrue has a pulse, I expect him to be an upgrade over Willie.

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jsmoove reply to Brian on Oct 1 at 17:49
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If your mind is made up about Willie, then fair. But how can you say that Jrue is an upgrade over Willie when he has never sniffed a minute of court action in the NBA? Because of draft projections and analysis?

It has to be more than just your disdain for Willie. There is too much of an abstract there to say Jrue is an upgrade.

So Jordan doesn't have an "open mind" just because he has put an established NBA veteran ahead of an unproven rookie? Sounds more like he hasn't come into this with an "open mind" because he chose a pecking order that you disagree with.

I don't know how many different ways I can say Willie Green is a complete zero on the basketball court. Here's a list of the players, in the history of the sport, who have played as many minutes as Willie and accumulated fewer win shares.

Willie Green is a historically bad NBA player, I have confidence that Jrue will at least be below average, which will put him head and shoulders above Willie. I base this on the few minutes I saw of him in Orlando, scouting reports, pure probability and common sense.

Honestly, Jrue's a rookie. I believe he should be ahead of Willie in the rotation right now, but fine, if he isn't, no big deal. He'll work for it. Rodney Carney, on the other hand, has been in the league for 3 years and in less than half of Willie's minutes has accumulated more win shares.

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DeanH reply to jsmoove on Oct 1 at 18:06
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Did you not see Brian's Twitter to J. Hollinger's remarks about Willie Green. It seems that EVERYONE in the NBA realizes Willie Green aka Bill Green is one of the worse players in the NBA except maybe the 76ers. Fair point that maybe they are trying to increase his trade value or I would say, get some trade value!!

I stated earlier and meant it, if Willie Green was to start this year, I would sell my season ticket. I think he is horrendous.

And, just to be fair, he has had a few, very few, good games.

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Ryan F on Oct 1 at 7:56
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It's been 3 days of training camp. Who cares if Jrue hasn't surpassed Willie. 3 days. Willie has tenure and his peers respect him no matter how much we all don't. During the team's "who's our leader" exercise, Willie was 3rd on the team. Maybe they all see something us and the stats don't. In due time.

With Sammy, he needs to find out right now if this guy is going to be capable of making the necessary decisions to flow in these sets. We all think he can't, but with the proper coaching and the desire anyone can be taught anything, almost. They can run every play through him in training camp, if he's garbage the middle of this month, find another route.

I agree that its to be expected that WG gets the nod as the 3rd guard at this early stage. The language is a bit strong, but that's not a huge deal in itself. But it does pull open some old scabs from previous coaches overusing WG.

Last week, in the minutes projection, I predicted WG would be the 1st guard off the bench- at least for the 1st half of the year. Right or wrong, coaches value reliable players- even when reliable does not equate to productive or good. Especially when you are a new coach and inserting a new system there is value of knowing what a player will bring and knowing they will at least be in the right position.

Also WG toned down his usage rate last year, and became a bit more efficient with the ball. He is not a horrible negative on the floor- just a well below average NBA starter. He happened to be the teams best 2pt shooter and one of their best 3pt shooters. I just hope that his reliability does not keep Jrue buried on the bench too long, but the kid is 19, so its not the end of days if it takes a year for him to get regular minutes. We were spoiled with Thad ans Speights.

OK, that's my quota of positive posts for a while. I will now resume ranting for the remainder of the week.

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johnmagee on Oct 1 at 14:32
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Sam has to learn offense, period, learning this one is way beyond him - but if he can learn how to just post up and dribble I'll be impressed.

It's well recognized by many out there that willie green is pathetic - bill simmons points it out often - so does hollinger - willie green is terrible.

Must say - i don't find eithe rthing surprising - this organization just has a lingering stink of bassackwardness from billy king that probably lasts until green is gone

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RagedCage on Oct 1 at 15:25
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Since when does dalembert smile?

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deepsixersuede on Oct 1 at 18:52
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Brian, how does Willie rank against the 15 minute bench guys in the league, the Doolings and Reddick!s of the world. I just feel it isn!t his fault he started and played all those minutes and in a 10 to 15 minute role he may be better than average. As far as Jrue, earning minutes is never a bad thing and his numbers in college this year were probably worse than Willie!s in the pro!s. I hate defending Willie but our new coach had a similar player in Washington [Stephenson] who seemed to get a lot of minutes over young guys [N.Young?] so maybe he sees similar things in Green.

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Real and Speightacular reply to deepsixersuede on Oct 1 at 22:33
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What deepsixersuede said.

Before I get boxed into a corner not of my choosing (or rather, have a box put up around me), I guess I have to come right out and declare that I am not a Willie Green fan. I agree that he sucks as a starter. No one would dispute that. He is, however, a dependable backup. Nothing more but, too, not much less. That fact is not really anything super controversial.

My main point was that considering the heavy panting over Jrue's selection, his playing mostly 3rd string, early as it is, is not a great sign. Most lottery picks (and especially the high ones) are slotted for at least primary back-up roles in their rookie years. If Jrue has to be really working to take minutes from a guy like WG (who you deride with venomous breath), then it should be troubling. All this hollerin about how horrific Willie is kind of makes my point for me.

We will wait for your full analysis of Jordan's handling of rookies. Mebbe that will slow everyone's roll.


As much as it pains me to defend poor 'ole Willie (I do not like seeing him on the court), I think people are being a bit unfair and cherry-picking stats...

So I will do the same thing, but in his defense:

Name a current Sixer guard who surpassed Green in:
3pt%
2pt jump shot%
A/TO

Kaponono and Carney in 3pt% but no one else in any of those areas.

Green's Win Shares last year: 2.2 and 2.0 the previous year.

Granted not stellar, but that is a better reflection of what WG offers this year than the combined abysmal -0.6 of his 1st 3+ seasons. He has improved. His WS per/min last year was adequate for a limited role player who was only asked to shoot jumpers and defend.

Look at Green's per/36 min numbers last year: 13.5pts/2.5reb/3.1asst/1.3TO eFG%.473
Again, not great, but not all-world bad.

Last year his usage rate dropped to a respectable 19%. he no longer forced things or turned the ball over much or dominated the ball. He finally played his role- which was often to cover the PG (since Miller could not) while shooting jumpers and making back door cuts.

I want either Jrue or Carney to beat out Green for minutes... but they have to beat him out. He has slowly grown into a solid reserve guard who can defend and be where the coaches want him to be on the floor. For a role player those seemingly basic pre-requisites are key in terms of maximizing what the star players can do.

Green was a ball hogging, inefficient bum as recently as 2 years ago, but he has made real strides over the last 2 years, as is in the prime of his low level NBA career. WG as a starter makes me physically ill. But as a 12-16 minute reserve he is a reasonable option at this stage of his career.


Where do you get 2pt jump shot%? I don't see it at 82games.com. I'd like to look something up before responding.

Brian, you were on the right site:

www .82games.com/0809/FGSORT7.HTM

It brings up different players if you sort by 2pt and 3pt jumper% (need enough to qualify for stats.)

BTW, Carney .350% 3pt, putrid .259% on 2pt jumpers.
Kapono .428 on 3pt, .42 on 2pt- so better than Green... but you only want him to shoot.

Green 32% 3pt, a pretty good .422% on 3pt jumpers

sorry, Kapono .426% on 2pt (my 6 on my keyboard is sticking.)

Overall, don't want any of these guys overly relied upon except for specialty use. Can't wait for Jrue to be ready to start and move Lou to his more natural th man role.

Sorry, wish I could edit dumb typos. Green 32% 3pt jumpers, .422% on 2pt jumpers.

Check the new post, I put a chart and some analysis in there as a sort-of response.

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Real and Speightacular reply to tk76 on Oct 1 at 22:40
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co-signed.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Real and Speightacular on Oct 1 at 22:46
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curse this thread arrangement. to be clear, i was co-signing tk76's comment.

p.s. brian is this system ready to open accounts now?

You should be able to open an account right now. Soon, you'll be able to write posts if you do. No firm timetable on that yet, though. Let me know if you have a problem setting it up.

Remember that one time in 05' when WG scored 20 pts? If WG contract ended in 10' he would make good trade bait. If only billy king had reduced sammys and willies contract by one year we would have to 15 mill in expiring contracts to shop around with. Seriously, I don't know any team that would take WG or his contract. Teams didn't even want to spend 3mill on Iverson! Who would take two years and 6 million for WG?

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eddies' heady's on Oct 1 at 23:10
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What? Do me ears hear right?? An uproar over Willie G getting meaningful minutes?

Me hates to say, but I told you so.

There was such an adamant defense of the front office and their non-moves early in free agency by the moderator, and much ridicule doled out to myself when bringing this lack of activity up. Remember that flawed logic accusation? And my response was - it won't be considered flawed logic when Willie G is getting around 20 minutes a night.

Oh how it has reared it's ugly head.

And I pointed this out on the bloggers conference call post also. Stefanski let the cat out of the bag that day with regards to Willie G and I called him on it but someone responded that myself was reading way too much into his comments.

Looking back is somewhat useless but something to ponder is, if they would have taken Ty Lawson would there be an outcry over Willie G or even consideration from the staff to play Willie G so much at the backup PG spot?


"I was hoping a new coach would come in here and evaluate the guys objectively and dole out minutes based on what he saw"

Jordan has spent the past few weeks evaluating Jrue while working out in Philly. Is that not enough of an objective evaluation to realize the kid is just not ready and Willie is the better choice? It's amazing the pedastal Jrue is being placed on by some just from scouting reports and a snippet of summer league play but the kid hasn't stepped foot in an NBA game yet and for all we know about him he may be worse than Willie G.

If Sean Singletary can secure that last spot on the roster then I would suffice to say that Jrue would be behind him in the pecking order too. Singletary is a straight up baller just being held back by his height.

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deepsixersuede reply to eddies' heady's on Oct 2 at 0:13
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So Lawson would definitely be ahead of Willie and Royal? Do you have inside info on this. It has been stated that Jordan likes rookies to earn their minutes and whether it is Holliday or Lawson, both probably would not be a factor right away.In about 3 years we will know who is better between the two but it is too early to tell now.

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eddies' heady's reply to deepsixersuede on Oct 2 at 9:22
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"So Lawson would definitely be ahead of Willie and Royal?"

Definitely? Really don't know, that is why I used verbage such as 'ponder' and 'consideration'. But if you take his college pedigree into account and Willie G's and Royal's somewhat lack of talent, then it wouldn't take much to be ahead of those two. As Real and Speight said, this just speaks to how 'green' Jrue really is.

I mean, we are piling on the head coach here when we really should be finally seeing the light about Jrue. Considering Eddie Jordan's astuteness, when you are arguably 4th in the pecking order (behind Willie G, Royal Ivey, and Sean Singletary) that should tell us all just how much of a project this kid really is.

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johnmagee reply to eddies' heady's on Oct 2 at 14:10
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Yup - you're the first person to suggest that willie green gets too many minutes - -no one else hear has ever thought it.

Did you discover the sky was blue too?

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eddies' heady's reply to johnmagee on Oct 2 at 20:51
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Well, first, I'm not in the camp of those that think Willie G gets too many minutes, considering the alternatives - it was an indictment on the front office.

Secondly, I unfortunately can't stake claim to discovering the sky was blue, but I am the one that discovered that hell was hollow...... like your head.

From what I hear on TV about Jrue, he is impressing our coach and speaks very high of him. AI9 also is speaking very high of Jrue. As the coach stated, he believes that the rookies need to earn their minutes and from what I hear, living in the local area, Jrue is well on his way in earning minutes.

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eddies' heady's reply to DeanH on Oct 2 at 11:42
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Do you really expect them to say any different? Like he's just not ready or has a long way to go. How many coaches or players have ever said that a teammate struggles or sucks? Come on.


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