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The Rookie Treatment

Are contractually obliged to say…after the jump…on every single post?

It's like my calling card :) Does it bother you?

It's a weird situation, really... he's fighting for playing time against three guys who are all basically comparable to one another in terms of the previous success they've had in this league... which is, honestly, not a whole heck of a lot. While Carney and Ivey are both a bit younger than Green, none of them has proven that he's anything more than a bench player... and not even a first-off-the-bench player, when you get right down to it. If Holiday continues to work hard and to get a feel for the pace of the NBA and how things generally work on the court, it's hard to imagine him not getting a fair share opf playing time sometime in the latter half of the season. If he doesn't, it'll be pretty clear that he hasn't made the progress we all hope he'll make.

The tough pill for me to swallow, and I think I touched on this in the post, is being convinced that he was given ample opportunities to prove himself. If he's over-matched badly, I want to see it before I accept it, but that's probably a personal thing for me.

Bilko reply to Brian on Oct 16 at 15:43

"The tough pill for me to swallow... is being convinced that he was given ample opportunities to prove himself"

I'm with you 100% on this, Brian. I guess I'm hoping, at the very least, that things move along in a manner similar to the way they did with Thad... with the exception that we don't have to count on someone leaving the team (as Korver did) to make room for Jrue's playing time. I guess what I'm saying is that I'll accept a slow integration, so to speak, over no integration at all. If he plays 6-8 minutes per game in the first half of the season and then 12-15 minutes in the second half... well, I'll be just fine with that.

Alvin reply to Bilko on Oct 16 at 15:49

Yup, me too. I'll be fine with those minutes.

A. Non reply to Brian on Oct 16 at 16:02

While recognizing that we live in a world where even G. Popovich and P. Jackson have tons of tough detractors, I'm just wondering if we can give EJ, like, five minutes of credit before we start proclaiming ourselves expert enough to know when and how much playing time Jrue should be getting in this preseason.

Eddie will have plenty of opportunity during the season to prove himself, we'll have a fair ledger of goods vs bads and when it tips clearly into dumbasscoachhowdhegethiredanyway territory, we can call for his stoopit head.

It's a trust thing. Give him a little space to do something with it.

Here's the quote of the day, from Starbury:

"I'm just talking as a fan and New Yorker who grew up loving the Knicks: why would I give you my money to watch them?" Marbury said.

And then the blurb ends with this:

Marbury said he plans to attend the Knicks' home opener October 31 vs. the 76ers with his kids.

eddies' heady's on Oct 16 at 10:28

Curious - was there this much infatuation and obsession over Thad Young after he was picked at 12 and Marreese Speights after he was picked at 16 the last two years?

"... it pains me to have to accept the coach's evaluation that he isn't ready without seeing it for myself."

If having no assists against six turnovers isn't enough to see for yourself (as has been stated here the past few days about the concern for turnovers) then what is? And take into account this was against mostly the other team's bench players when he acculumated these numbers, so we can only imagine what they would look like if it were against the other team's top five.

Bang the gong, dead on EH.

The difference with Jrue is that he was predicted to go higher in mock drafts and dropped to us, hence the increased expectations.

Add in the fact that he's only 19 and has great length and reportedly an a great attitude towards playing defense, he's got a number of Sixers fans excited (myself included). I just want to see the kid play. I'd be glad if he gets enough minutes so we can assess where this kid is at. It is true though we may have to wait a year or two for him to start living up to his potential.

A. Non. reply to Alvin on Oct 16 at 12:22

But why keep expectations so high after some mock drafts? Drafts done by people who're just guessin their asses off, people whose prognostication "skills" are regularly shamed year after year.

I'd get excited over a guy like Dejuan Blair falling to us cuz at least he proved himself a historic beast at the level just below. Jrue went at his actual value: a guy who's not likely to be ready to contribute meaningful minutes in his first year (but has enough upside to keep grooming).

Really it's so much ado.

You are absolutely correct. 40 minutes of preseason action says it all. He's obviously going to have a 0 to infinity assist to turnover ratio and shoot 100% from three.

I do like how you quote me and then completely ignore the key part of the quote "without seeing it for myself." I've seen Jrue play about 10 minutes so far this preseason, I think it was in the second game against Toronto, but I'm not sure. He hit a couple threes in that stretch and turned the ball over at least once. From what I've seen, with my own two eyes, he didn't look overmatched. I was hoping I'd be able to see him play against the knicks, or maybe tomorrow night against the Suns when the game is on NBA TV. As of this moment, I haven't seen enough to make an assessment either way. And the numbers alone don't really tell me anything because it's such a small sample size.

Kudos to you for pointing out that he has played against the subs on other teams without providing the counter argument that he's played with the Sixers second and third-teamers. His shooting and scoring numbers are more than fine, and perhaps he'd have a couple more assists, and a few less turnovers if he was playing with starters, or actual NBA players, instead of the Sean Singletary's of the world.

As for Thad, no one expected anything from him in his rookie season, and as I said in the post above, his performance has probably raised the expectations on Jrue, fairly or not. Do you read these posts before you drone on with the same argument in the comments?

A. Non reply to Brian on Oct 16 at 12:33

If the guy played great in preseason, there'd be a leg to stand on for all the wee-want-jrue-not-a-willie! hollerin. As he hasn't in fact played so great, esp in the departments where he's needed most (ie A/TO, because, no foolin, they have scorers aplenty), maybe, just maybe the coach gets some leeway, that maybe he's seen more of the same (or worse) in the closed practices to make the call.

I thought it was a pretty even-handed post. But automatic expectations (vs. hopes) for Jrue because two years ago Thad worked out really well doesn't seem entirely reasonable. You can kill development by not giving a player enough opportunities but you can also do it by giving him some before he's really ready. We don't need to have a 19yr old play a lot of minutes at point guard his first year in the NBA when he played only one season in college and that one season at off-guard (and not so impressively at that). Getting on Eddie's back about it is also getting on Jrue's.

Your second paragraph here is why I didn't crucify, or even criticize Jordan at all in this post. All I said is that I'd like to see him play for myself. Christ, I'd also like to see the kid practice as well, but I can't.

"Some contender wants a little offense off the bench and/or there's a problem player out there (like Goran Giricek was) and Ed Stefanski sends Wilie Green packing, opening up a role for Jrue."

Or, they could call up an NBDL player and get the same or better production. Don't keep your fingers crossed.

Well, if they're trying to unload a problem player, can't do that with an NBADL guy.

And I'm not holding my breath.

If the team was otherwise set I bet Jrue would be getting lots of minutes.

The problem is that they have a new coach, new offense, new PG... and they are needing to use the pre-season to install everything from scratch. Unfortunately I think Jrue is getting lost in this, and I'd prefer if EJ found a way to get him some regular pre-season minutes.

Now, in the regular season, you can't guarantee him set minutes until the rest of the team is on the same page. getting the regulars ready and adjusted has to be the priority or they will lose a ton of games...

But right now we are talking pre-season, which is glorified practice. And if Jrue doesn't get some time now he will never get a chance. That's sort of what the pre-season is for, but for this team its gotten lost because in the new schemes everyone is sort of like a rookie.

DeanH reply to tk76 on Oct 16 at 18:56

I think you hit the nail on the head! Coach is concerned about the team learning the new stuff and getting comfortable w/ his new team.

I do not believe this is in any way a reflection on Jrue as much as concentrating on what is must right now. Getting the team ready for the season...

And a very small edit: according to nba.com Jrue has a total of four rebounds (not five) in that span and also four fouls.

In Ivey's 50 preseason minutes, he has only 11pts (on truly wretched shooting) but one less turnover than Jrue piled up in his 40 minutes. Toss in the 6 assists he was credited and I think you can make a fair guess as to Jordan's priorities for point guards in his system.

Let's give this boy Jrue some time.

deepsixersuede on Oct 16 at 19:38

A little tidbit in B. Cooney!s Daily News article today made me feel better about Jrue; "he lead his highschool team to 3 state titles". I did not know this and it adds to my feelings that he was a good pick. Would Thad or Marreese have gotten much preseason run in this situation, I doubt it. TK76 hit the nail on the head about his growth not being a priority with a new coach, new offense, and more importantly a new p.g. being used this year already. What bothers me most is all the comparisons to Teague [disappeared for games at a time in college], Lawson [injury prone with a 30 game schedule] and Maynor [will he ever start in the N.B.A.] because they are playing better in a few preseason games, with more oppurtunity.Who knows who will be the best of these 4, I sure don!t yet but the kid deserves time to show what he can do.

EugeneBWhitaker on Oct 16 at 20:09

Rightly or wrongly Jrue Holliday isn't a victim of higher expectations so much that he slipped in the draft but BECAUSE of the performances of the past two mid first round picks by the sixers (Speights, Young). Young had little to no expectation in his first year, but he was astonishing, so there was a bit more expectation from Speights, and depending on how you look at it, he exceeded (or not) any expectations people had for him in his rookie season (though his second training camp disheartening so far), so through no fault of his own (or Coach Jordans) the expectations of performance are so much higher for Jrue Holliday because of how Young and Speights performed their rookie years, it's a natural evolution of expectation (this is in response to the gentleman who asked earlier if the expectations for Young and Speights were this high)

Additionally, Holliday was drafted at a position where many sixers fans see a 'great need'. There are many who think Holliday was drafted to a position (point guard) where the sixers have no other. Young was drafted and seemed to play the same position as Iguodala, Speights wasn't going to play much because the sixers had just signed Elton Brand. There was no need for them to perform as well as they did their rookie seasons (at least when they were drafted). There is more of a need for Jrue Holliday (from many fans) to perform right away, and not being able to see if he can is also disheartening.

Then there's the expectation factor, not of Holliday, but of this team. Two seasons around 500 and first round losses, the expectations are higher with this team. The new GM has 'his coach'. Eddie Jordan is the guy Mr Stefanski wanted. He brings the system. Brand is healthy, everyone is back, and everyone thinks that this team is ready to bust out, and you want to know that everyone can help do that. And then you look at the guards on the roster not named Iguodala. Maybe you worry a little bit, maybe you feel Andre Miller would be better in this system then a Louis Williams and you look at Jrue Holliday; the highly recruited and touted high school senior who suffered through a miserable year at UCLA playing out of position because the point guard who was supposed to go pro didn't. He had limited playing time in college, he played most of that out of position, so there is that hype of what he achieved in high school that while could be tempered by a poor college season many can see what he did in high school and feel that if given the chance he'll do that in the pros and that Holliday just went from one stifling atmopshere at UCLA to another. Maybe Eddie Jordan just doesn't like to play rookies.

I personally don't understand why Holliday hasn't played more in the preseason, the final scores don't matter to me, it's seeing where this team is, and ashamedly, I don't think they are as far as they should be by now, and Jordan abandoning his beloved 'system' (for whatever reason) to try and get a win in the preseason is troubling to me in my core. It's the kind of coaching move that makes me personally wonder about the mans fitness and understanding to lead this franchise to where it properly belongs versus just hoping to do well enough to keep his job.

Yes, I'm disappointed but the minutes Jrue Holliday has (not) gotten in pre-season, but I don't believe it's in the upper echelon of issues I have with the presaseon so far. The continued minutes for Willie Green are a bother, I still worry about Lou Williams, Samuel Dalembert, paper clippings aside, is still lost in any kind of offensive scheme and breaks any offensive system he's in. Andre Iguodala has turned the ball over too much, and while he picked it up recently those zero rebound games of Thaddeus Young are troubling. Mareese Speights seems to have improved nothing in the off season and if he's to be believed, the coaching staff seems ok with that as long as he looks for his shot when he gets the ball (and he seems to have no problem with that). The defensive rebounding still isn't consistently acceptable against bad teams.

I would love to see Jrue HOlliday get bigger minutes in the pre-season just to see what he can do - but this team has some serious issues that are concerning me and if I were Eddie Jordan, I'd focus on those.

deepsixersuede reply to EugeneBWhitaker on Oct 16 at 21:38

Eugene, well said; I also was upset when our coach went away from the new offense in a preseason game till I read the following quote the next day; "they [Knicks] were into our wings, into our guards, and we haven!t put in our counters yet. When Jefferies and Hughes were in the game, they knew our calls, and if your good enough to go by reads, we can attack that." I think this tells me something good about our new coach.Rather than have his players get frustrated and maybe doubt his system he bent and admited so, allowing for people like us to question his methods but in hindsight I think he showed me a willingness to adjust, a good thing.

eddie's heady's reply to deepsixersuede on Oct 16 at 23:11

Exactly deep, the questioning his methods. With time, he's gonna be a good one.

eddies' heady's reply to EugeneBWhitaker on Oct 16 at 23:16

Nearly the best analysis of the season-before-the-season so far, with a few irregularities of the opinionated sort, but such an overreaction when taking into account the limited sample size. It will come. In due time, it will come.

eddies' heady's reply to EugeneBWhitaker on Oct 16 at 23:24

And concerning the first paragraph - evolution of expectation can often times lead to disparagement, in the reduce of rank sense. Reality has to set in at some point.

eddies' heady's reply to EugeneBWhitaker on Oct 16 at 23:33

And concerning the second paragraph, I'm not so sure that there's more of a need for the rook to perform right away for the team's sake, but yes, maybe for the fans.

That trust has to be extended to Lou also - for the time being.

ragedcage reply to EugeneBWhitaker on Oct 17 at 13:35

Damn dude that's long enough to be an article

sixersoup on Oct 16 at 22:05

anyone have a link for tonights games?

Real and Speightacular on Oct 16 at 22:41

FWIW, Jrue's in (wise against this freewheeling Suns team of old, the one that shrugs at defense)... three minutes, 3 assists (2 dishes to Speights for dunks) and NO turnovers.

eddies' heady's reply to Real and Speightacular on Oct 16 at 23:01

viewing pleasure desired...

sixersoup on Oct 16 at 22:49

where are you guys watching this? I can't find the link.

eddies' heady's on Oct 16 at 22:58

At some point, particularly when they are new, you have to create some trust in individuals. It's as if there is thought, lingering at that, that DiLeo or Mo Cheeks are still coaching.

Initially, no pun intended, you have to give Eddie a chance, or even moreso, respect. He will work his craft and weave his way, I'm sure. For a guy who loves a crisp and disectful, executed offensive set like yourself, this guy may be right up a lot of our alleys. Now granted, this is all predicated on shooters. True ones.....if not....improved ones.

You have to believe, what he pulled out of the bag at the Garden the other night, was pure stroke of genius. We, and they, already know the team can win half their games on just isolations and 1-4 isos - the traditional, basic sets where they have run for years. Now, if they can translate and implement these more system-oriented sets, other teams better watch out.

So therefore, his (or their) handling of the rook shouldn't be so highly placed in question. And sometimes, neither should the keen eye and opinion of others. There's so much more going on here.

This isn't a pissing contest or an internet-prove-you-wrong, it's just another somewhat depressed fan's depth of fandom on display. You want to see the rook for yourself, and rightfully so, but his nuturement appears to be proper at this time. It will pay dividends years down the road. I mean, is Jrue going to get better? - Sure. Is Jrue going to get worse? - Very unlikely.

As stated here before, this here guy viewed approximately 20 of his games in college. We all want the same things, it's just viewed differently by others. And there's surely no harm in that.

eddies' heady's on Oct 17 at 0:13

the rookie treatment - but in the other sense - d-board, o-board, and dish for the slam. nice

Man, Speights loves playing against the Suns. Huge 4th quarter comeback happening right now, wish I could watch it.

Duracorr reply to Brian on Oct 17 at 0:22

Speights seems to be going crazy according to the play by play. I can't even find an audio link.

Same here. He's got 30 and 10 right now.

This lineup is crazy:


Who's playing the three?

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Oct 17 at 0:46

my guess is willie with jrue at the one and lou at the two.

Sixers finally get over the hump, take a 106-104 lead on an alley oop from Lou to Speights and then...

1:29 PHI - Bad pass by W. Green
1:37 PHI - W. Green defensive rebound


And then...

1:26 PHI - Shooting foul on W. Green
1:26 PHO - C. Powell drives to the hoop for a layup. Assist: L. Amundson

Willie fouls Powell for the and-one. Ugh.

And Willie makes up for it on the other end!

1:16 PHI - W. Green hits a free throw
1:16 PHO - Shooting foul on C. Powell
1:16 PHI - W. Green makes an 8-foot jumper in the lane

Sixers by 1, with the ball, 1 minute to go after this:

1:00 PHO - D. Dickau hits the second free throw
1:00 PHO - D. Dickau misses the first free throw
1:00 PHI - Personal foul on J. Holiday

Duracorr reply to Brian on Oct 17 at 0:37

Looks like it came apart in the end, with Speights failing to work theclock after a rebound, then Lou fouling a 3 point shooter.

Yep. Jordan stuck w/ that lineup which you can't fault him for.

eddies' heady's reply to Duracorr on Oct 17 at 0:48

wonder if it was a pump fake or something being so far out.

And Jrue gives his 6th foul with 18 seconds left, they're going to lose.

The rook finishes with 14 points on 5/9 shooting with 7 boards, 6 assists, 2 turnovers and a steal in just over 30 minutes of work.

Duracorr reply to Brian on Oct 17 at 0:41

Looks like Lou got his foul shooting backwards. Should have made the first and missed the second.

Man, check out Lou + Speights

21/39 from the floor, 16/22 from the line, 59 points.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Oct 17 at 0:55

30 min tonight and neither you, nor I, could 'see' it. can't wait for sunday. but i'm sure he will divide the minutes differently with the travel so early before the season.

are you ready for some.............no Hank, not that one..........are you ready for some basketball, sunday night party!

Dickau missed both! Go for the win here? Down 2 with 3.9 seconds left.

Duracorr reply to Brian on Oct 17 at 0:45

Well, they fell short, but it was a nice comeback. In a real game EJ would probably have put in Kapono (or Carney if healthy.) for the last shot.

eddies' heady's reply to Duracorr on Oct 17 at 0:49

or Dala.

Real and Speightacular on Oct 17 at 0:49

Awesome. Yeah, yeah, it's still preseason and it's the Suns, but this is the breakout game everyone was hoping to see from Jrue. We finally have a little flash of what's possible from EJ's secret weapon. I like pleasant surprises over dashed expectations. We should continue to nurture him gently, putting him out in situations where he has a strong shot to do well.

SPEIGHTS! Real season not far off now, fellas.

eddies' heady's reply to Real and Speightacular on Oct 17 at 1:02

Just a little coddling going on, just a lil coddling. Managing the psyche of the young kid.

patience, patience

deepsixersuede on Oct 17 at 8:00

It is good to see Nash, who lit up A.Miller a couple nights ago, didn!t go off on L.Will., who played 35 minutes.For those without N.B.A. t.v.,the free preseason preview is on so you can watch the Sixers game Sunday at 7, if the Phillies aren!t your cup of tea.

eddies' heady's on Oct 17 at 10:11

With the exception of Willie G, it looks like he wanted to let the young guns find their way in a live game setting with the lineups at the end last night. I'm sure he was also divvying up the minutes with the long flight and the back-to-backs.

But when taking into account Jordan's openness to the media concerning detailed situations and issues with the team, I really like what he was doing here. He limited a couple of the hosses and passed the buck into the lap of the youngins, but more importantly, he did it on the road away from the media spotlight. Pretty much every move he has made to this point has me extremely impressed.

I am continually amazed at how much insight he allows with some of his admittances and quotes to the media. When he states something it is always brief in form but comprehensive in scope.

From the admittal of deviating from the offense to more familiar sets the other night in New York, to the publicly-said-but-didn't-need-to-publicly-be-said 'attitude and negative energy' issues, to the mention of Brand needing to do more 'for his teammates', and last but not least, the snippet of why Jrue rode the pine because of the opponent's feistiness.

In shifting to overreaction mode, so far, this guy has shown nothing short of brilliance. I truly like what I have seen. And unexpectedly, I fully embrace what I have heard. We haven't had that in a while 'round these parts.

I am in total agreement with that. Ed Stefanski got a negative rap from the jump after hiring Jordan. Don't underestimate either Ed.They are very sharp basketball minds. Let this organization keep flying under the radar and hey don't be surprised if come April we are looking at a 50 win or close to 50 win team.

eddies' heady's reply to Rob_STC on Oct 17 at 12:26

So true.

Beware of the collective Eddies' Heady's...

Is Sunday here yet??

I followed the 2nd half of the game over at libertyballers. Even just watching the Box, it was fun to see the comeback and Jrue have a breakout game. The game counted for nothing, but still hurt to see them climb all the way back from 18 down to take the lead... then see Dickua get 7FT's in 30 sec to cost them the comeback.

At least we will actually get to "see" them play on Sunday. Hope Jrue gets another extended run.

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