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A Shameful Win

Hey, I feel your pain. I honestly though Jordan might be trying to throw the game with that extended small ball line-up. I thought Mo was bad with small ball, but this is ridiculous- but at least this time he did not play Kapono at PF.

I wasn't even angry for Speights not controlling the boards. Not really much he could do with Thad as his PF. And he did well rebounding next to Sam.

Sam and Speights should be starting.

...per 82games
29% of Brand’s “close” inside shots have been blocked (compared to 11% for Speights and 8% for Sam.)

I think it is only a matter of time before we see Speights and Sammy starting...they looked like a great combination on the floor last night but we rarely get to see it because as great as Speights has been everyone thinks he is a 5 but I think he would be more effective at the PF spot. He can already do what Brand is doing it's just that the Sixers have $80 million sitting on the bench.

Glad Jordan finally came to his senses and inserted Philly's best rebounder and shotblocker when he needed DEFENSE, what a revelation!! Hopefully Sam is not joining Brand on the bench in the 4th when defense more often than not wins the game.

Well, you have to keep Brand on the bench so you can get minutes to Willie Green, Rodney Carney and Roy Ivey. I mean, those guys really provide... uh... you know... stuff... off the bench.

If Speights continues to bring it every game it's only a matter of time. EBrand or Sammy with Speights seems like the best alternative to us but who knows what the coach is thinking. Agree with the post. Maybe, he is a coaching genius and we just don't get it.

Looking at boxscores most games were really ugly last night. Horrible shooting percentages. NYC's teams are 1-16 right now. Milwaukee is 4-2? We can't draw and are 4-4? The NBA may be in trouble. I wonder how the attendance of the league is going compared to past seasons?

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JohnMagee on Nov 12 at 9:50
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Jrue's stellar performance against the Suns buys him exactly 4 minutes of rope in the next game. I'm predicting 2 DNPCD's in the upcoming back-to-back.

Oh how I loved this, Jrue with a bad possession, pulled immediately never to be heard from again. For a guy who worries about players 'psyches', EJ might want to consider the message that 'if you screw up you sit the rest of the game' might be bad for a rookie especially when other guys can screw up about 40% of the time (roughly) and continue to play.

The domain is purchased, site design begins immediately

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Real and Speightacular on Nov 12 at 9:59
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Mo Speezy collects another PoG nod. Must be challenging for the team lead already and he's only a "bench" player. Imagine if where he might be today if wasn't jerked around so much last year? Still, he's showing a lot more of the potential some of us thought we spied last season. It's one gratifying bright spot for this year.

I wonder if the new guard-friendly rules make it even more imperative now to have defenders who can put pressure on the perimeter. Does this mean it has to be Jrue out there? There was a time (quick, Batman--to the archives!), when there was concern about Sam's one-endedness, that his net effect, for all his defensive prowess, more often than not ran in the negative.

Also in the recent archives was a lot of griping about DiLeo's non-sensical rotations, but he sure got a lot of rope. Jordan is light-years more accomplished as an nba coach than DiLeo, but seven games into the season we have dudes looking to raise their own profile, trying to drum up support (geezus, just do it already) for a firejordan site. SEVEN GAMES (ok, now 8). Like this dude is lavishly spending off your inheritance. I don't get why so much venom over the coach so early. DiLeo got the benefit of doubt as a coach for months because he helped out in the draft. This makes no sense.

Not to say he hasn't made some headscratching-to-us moves (or non-moves, as the case may be), but is he just the convenient scapegoat for frustration over Thad and Brand (and to a lesser extent Lou, defensively)?

I now wish Jordan would play Jrue for 20 minutes a game for the next 30 games so we can know the story one way or the other. Someone would be finally proven "right" (well, if Jrue tends to suck, then the cry of course will be that he needs even more time). Brand went down and the M16, the most obvious replacement was still pinned to the bench more or less. The wise ones justified DiLeo saying he wasn't "ready." But Jrue with almost zero track record, with two other vets available MUST play or else Jordan's a screaming idiot and we'll be guaranteed to lose games without his substantial contribution. Man. You guys are a wonder.


[/ end rant]

Re Rant:

From what I read on multi blogs, I think maybe it is you that is not getting it. The long rope for Dileo was based upon mid season change, no recent experience (or fancy sale job to the GM), and he did continue a rotation, we just did not agree.

Attacking someone for their desire to maybe give an outlet for stress is without basis. Jordan has several years of experience to base one's opinions on.

Lastly, I am still willing to give coach more rope but as is clear from the blogs, the fans are losing patience already from how horrendous he is coaching.

Maybe instead of mocking others, present a case that supports the coach in that he has a plan? Maybe show JohnM where he is wrong? Black and white, facts, instead of attacking. I am anxious as many of us are to see some hope in our team NOW.

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Real and Speightacular reply to DeanH on Nov 12 at 11:42
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DeanH, how in the world would it be possible for me to prove Jordan has a plan? Do I have some special access (more importantly, do you)? You're setting me up for the impossible. Nice.

What I've implied is maybe there's a method to the madness here. He does have a track record of coaching and it's not all that difficult to argue that it's a good one. Your champion DiLeo agreed enough with the decision to hire him.

It's just too early imho to get too deep in Jordan's ass. If you honestly think 7-8 games is enough to advocate firing him, there's really nothing i can present to convince you otherwise. Nothing.

I'm "attacking" an idea that I don't agree with (just as you with your comment "attack" mine). You want me to allow others room to vent their frustrations, fine, well allow me mine.

Sure, but I was responding in complete to your rant. And tried to keep the same "mojo" in responding. Nothing personal but you implied that he has a plan that many do not think he does have a plan.

And, btw, I tend to agree with you more than not.

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Real and Speightacular reply to DeanH on Nov 12 at 13:04
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No. I'm not going so far to say that he has a plan. I mean, I'll ASSUME he has one or at least some method to the apparent madness. I'm just saying it's way too early to go apeshit over it.

Dude has a track record, he didn't just fall off the turnip truck. There's no obvious line of amazing coaches waiting on the sidelines to be chosen. It's a crapshoot. Some assistants don't make for good head coaches (Thibodeau, i'm convinced now, just goes on these interviews for the free flights. Year after year after year, with his track record on the defensive end, he does something in those interviews to impress people that he really isn't cut out for the top job.). Some college guys with track records long as your arm don't work out in the bigs.

This one (Jordan) has done some pretty impressive stuff with the tools he had. If he can't get more than 7-8 games' breathing room to do his thing, who can? It's like the whole MSM thing of hyping up overreactions to drive attention/eyeballs. Don't know what to make of it.

you make sense, now. A little clearer to me than your first rant!

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JohnMagee on Nov 12 at 10:02
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Jrue is a 19 year old kid, even if he doesn't play well playing 20 MPG in the next 30 games that doesn't mean he's a draft bust...

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Real and Speightacular on Nov 12 at 10:10
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"Jrue is a 19 year old kid, even if he doesn't play well playing 20 MPG in the next 30 games that doesn't mean he's a draft bust..."

Right, cuz that's what i said, if Jrue isn't playing well now, it must mean he's going to be a bust. Dude. You and your strawman argumentation. Every. Frackin. Time. Without fail. It's like you're the sixers' bizarro rumpelstiltskin, spinning straw into bullshite.

Anyway, good luck with that. You're now hemmed into defending that position for the balance of his time here. Well done, well thought out.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Real and Speightacular on Nov 12 at 10:11
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Anyway, good luck with that. You're now hemmed into defending that position for the balance of his time here. Well done, well thought out.

To be clear, I'm talking about the anti-Jordan stuff.

Eddie Jordans rookie treatment has a lot more history of failure than the 'rookie plays 30 games so he must suck' theory you purported.

well, if Jrue tends to suck, then the cry of course will be that he needs even more time)

You said that right? You made an asinine 'strawman' comment your self and then proceeded into the ad hoc attack on me personally that you seem to be so thrilled about, it's awesome how you whine about me so much and constantly feel the need to attack me every time I write something...if you really truly think nothing i say is worthwhile, you'd stop replying to anything I write, period...here I'll show you how it's done.

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Real and Speightacular reply to JohnMagee on Nov 12 at 10:33
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LOL! And here comes the projection parade. You're a first-year psych major's comedy show.

You're cute when you're flustered, you know that? There, there. Between you an me, we'll pretend that nobody else can read and understand plain english and that you made perfect sense. Better? Again, good luck with your new site, I'm sure you won't have any trouble finding supporters. Stock up on the tin foil tho.

If we're going to compare the Jrue situation to Speights last season, at least be fair about it.

First, I called for Speights to start when Brand went down. Check the archives.

Second, Speights played in 79 games. I can't remember if he missed a game due to injury, but assuming he didn't, that's 3 DNPCDs the entire season. Jrue has 4 already.

Third, when we talked about tough love with Speights it was because he wasn't putting out any effort on the defensive end when he was on the floor. It wasn't one mistake and then to the bench, it was a pattern that needed to be broken. Jrue hasn't even gotten enough minutes to establish a pattern.

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JohnMagee reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 11:09
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In Jordans defense, Nate Robinson and Chris Duhon have damaged many a rookie psyche they're so damn good

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 11:31
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Fair enough, B. I can respect that. Though, that said, I think it's strong to say dude wasn't putting out any effort. If you want to say he needed to put out more, stop "saving" himself for the offensive end, find, but it's not like he still wasn't getting blocks now and then, it's not like he didn't have really strong rebounding games. The flashes were there, it's a question of consistency, the usual bugbear for rooks.

Instead of pulling him off the floor for the rest of the game, you could yell in his ear and eventually put him back out. You put it down to effort when I suspect it could have been more ignorance re how to move his feet, positioning, etc. The reason I say that is that it's exceedingly difficult to "teach" effort. Though it's obvious when end Mo relishes, it could be this year he's simply got more wind, better technique.

In any event, nobody was setting up fire DiLeo sites when we had PLENTY of beef regarding his coaching. He got a ton of rope. And that is the heart of my rant. The frustration over the team is leading to too much (imho) emphasis on the coaching at this early point in the season. Maybe expectations for the team were too high. We went into this season with a lot of unknowns, the team had (has) a lot to absorb. Some questions are being answered and not all of em to our liking. But the sky hasn't fallen yet.

I'm not sure how often interim coaches get firehim.com sites.

DiLeo also started 18-10 with a pretty tough schedule, and the team didn't immediately go from one of the better defensive teams in the league to one of the worst overnight.

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JohnMagee reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 11:55
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If DiLeo had gotten the job permanently - I would have started the fire him site immediately the next day.

Just saying - I never wanted him permanently :)

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 12:45
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Not sure how many brand new coaches get firehim site after their first seven games, either. Then again we live in a world where even Popovich has detractors supposedly rooting for the team.

DiLeo was 3-4 after his first 7, 3-5 after 8. They won the games they were "supposed" to. Sounds familiar.

"and the team didn't immediately go from one of the better defensive teams in the league to one of the worst overnight."

Oh, but they did. And the calls weren't nearly as vociferous as they are for Jordan now. I don't think there's any denying he got more benefit of the doubt.

Speaking of which, Brian made arguments loud and strong about this team's defensive prowess (one of the league's best at one time, right?). Was DiLeo doing something magical to produce it or was it more an effect of the players they had? If defense wasn't really an issue but rather an inability to generate a real offensive set when fast-break isn't available, why would you bring in a defensive specialist? Why not bring in a guy who can really shore up the end you're weakest at? Is it really 100% (or even mostly) Jordan's fault they've fallen off so much? I am making a distinction here between fault and responsibility. Who knew it would be this bad seven games in?

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Real and Speightacular reply to Real and Speightacular on Nov 12 at 12:55
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quickie edit:

"Oh, but they did eventually."

Actually, he was 4-4 after 8. Brand went down in his second game, then they left for the Ice Capades road trip. On that trip they lost a close game to the Nuggets (on Chauncey heroics, if memory serves) and they lost to the Spurs on Parker's last-second shot. When they got back from that trip they rattled off 7 straight wins including besting Houston, San Antonio, Portland and Atlanta. He also took over for a flailing team in the middle of the season.

Jordan, on the other hand, hasn't had one injury to deal with. He had the entire team for a full training camp, and the team has yet to put together a 48-minute effort in the first 8 games.

I disagree with the premise that if you have defensive personnel you should hire an offensive coach. As these first 8 games have clearly displayed, without an emphasis placed on defense, any squad can be a poor defensive team. Either through poor defensive systems, or questionable rotations that favor offense over defense, both things we've seen signs of in every single game they've played this season.

Is there time for things to turn around? Obviously, we're only 8 games in. I'm not saying fire jordan, and I'm pretty sure John doesn't seriously think he's going to get fired, but there is cause for concern, even at this early point in the season. Much more than there was 8 games into DiLeo's tenure.

I also don't buy into the "well our expectations were too high" so it somehow becomes the fans' fault that the team is sucking ass? Come on. My expectations were that this team would play to its strengths (defense) and the offense would come along slowly. Instead the offense is coming along slowly and the defense has been turned into a joke.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 13:30
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My bad on DiLeo's record, I thought he started on the 17th, when it was actually the 13th. In any event, his record was still the same at this point in terms of reasonable expectations of wins-losses for the first 7-8 games. That's the point where we're at right now. No point in bringing up how well/bad the team did last year after. Keep it as apples-to-applish as we can, we don't know how things are going to go after this point. If there was a mass of people calling for DiLeo's head after 7-8 games last year, I wasn't aware of it. Sure, you can excuse him by saying he was an interim coach, but he didn't drop in from out of the sky--in many ways, DiLeo was more familiar with this roster than any coach they could have possibly hired for this season.

Jordan, on the other hand, hasn't had one injury to deal with. He had the entire team for a full training camp, and the team has yet to put together a 48-minute effort in the first 8 games.

And on the other hand, Jordan's has done well with injury-ravaged rosters in the past and gotten his teams to play for 48-minutes in the past. So either he's completely forgotten how to work with a full squad or maybe, just maybe, these kinds of effects take time and may vary depending on the roster. He's already said the PO takes most of the first full year to grasp. Defensively, can anyone say he's radically altered the schemes from last year?

"I disagree with the premise that if you have defensive personnel you should hire an offensive coach."

Yeah, me too. I do however agree with a premise that you should look to hire an offensive-minded coach if that's your team's greatest area of weakness. It is not to say that one should now ignore defense either. You see the clear distinction, right? You know some people have actually gone to look up what a strawman argument is now, right? ;-)

"Is there time for things to turn around? Obviously, we're only 8 games in. I'm not saying fire jordan, and I'm pretty sure John doesn't seriously think he's going to get fired, but there is cause for concern, even at this early point in the season."

If you're not saying fire Jordan, I don't have a beef, then. I have never at any point said there's nothing to gripe about. You can intimate that's my position if you want, but the threads don't lie (assuming no alteration, natch). It's not about whether he's actually going to be fired (i'll assume ed an co have steelier stomachs) but it's the call for his firing at this early juncture that has me shakin my head.

I also don't buy into the "well our expectations were too high" so it somehow becomes the fans' fault that the team is sucking ass?

Me neither, B. I think the more I blow here, the more straw gets propped up. Time to give it a rest.

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JohnMagee on Nov 12 at 12:06
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PS

Can anyone perceive if the sixers are running the Princeton Offense at all? For a portion for the game? Infrequently? Nothing seems all that unique or 'working' to me

I believe that we have a 4-4 team that may or may not be lost in the woods. I think they are trying really hard to grasp the PO, but generally speaking they would rather run. (OBVIOUSLY) We have a team with alot of athletes that are trying to run an offensive system that makes you get into your offense and be patient when its options arent clicking. We are asking a running team to be tied down. So think of this, we have a single guy, that doesnt want to be tied down, is...thus the results are ok, but really...the single guy wants to run...does that make any sense. I dont really sense that the sixers are anything right now, atleast in previous years we could say they would run and gun. I think we have a coach that knows one thing...PO...and hes going to run PO gosh darn it...with all his might...

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JohnMagee reply to AndyF on Nov 12 at 12:19
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This was a concern of some, Jordans 'strength' was the Princeton offense, and he sold Ed on the fact that he could run it with the sixers roster but so far it doesn't seem to run well with the sixers roster, but more importantly was it even the right idea to head in that direction...athletic players some with high basketball IQ's some with not so high bball IQ's, some with great court vision, some with none...was it realistic to believe that the princeton offense WAS the right one for this team?

I think that's the greater question...

I don't know, PO or no PO isn't really the issue for me. Any half-court offensive system is better than what they've run for the past couple of seasons. Eventually, I think the PO will help. My concern, and what has really been my concern since I first found out Jordan was the new coach, is that this team has suddenly become a laughing stock on the defensive end. I'm afraid Jordan would completely psyched if this team wound up scoring 105ppg and allowing 104ppg. That's not the type of basketball I want to see, personally.

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JohnMagee reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 12:36
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I don't care 'how' they win as long as they win and seem to be moving towards contending...the 'plus' in hiring Eddie Jordan was the Princeton offense and that he would help the sixers weaknesses in the half court offense, and I haven't seen that be much better this year than last year or the last year Cheeks had a full season.

PS - I think your 'remember' thing is fixed

I do not see any PLAN on the court. All I see is 5 guys on the court playing basketball. Sometimes throws the ball to one player and watch, sometimes plays volley w/ the ball and then one shoots when play clock is at 23 seconds.

Do others see that when Brand or Sam get the ball, they hold it like they may never get it again?

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JohnMagee reply to DeanH on Nov 12 at 12:39
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I saw last night brand get the ball in the low post, draw more than one man and find thad for the wide open three (that he missed, but the key was that brand had that vision to find him) :)

They did a better job of getting Brand the ball in a good position last night. He didn't do much with the opportunities, though. Two missed shots, three kick-outs to guys who missed jumpers.

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JohnMagee reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 12:46
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The missed jumpers aren't on Brand - if he found guys with open looks I consider those 'positive' possessions.

Especially compared to the other starting front court member

He and Jrue also ran a really nice pick & roll, right at the foul line, Jrue hit him with a sweet pass over the top of his defender. Resulted in foul shots.

Lou and Speights ran a similar play later on.

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JohnMagee reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 13:09
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I haven't had a chance to see Jrue play yet and at some point Cox will realize i'm still getting league pass (for free) and shut it off but I know now that Speights has some excellent court visiion, I knew Iguodala does, Williams seems to at least know when to pass and what pass not to make and Brands court vision seems pretty strong too...if passing is a 'key' to the PO - it makes sense to swap Speights out for Sam because of that alone...

Completely forgot to mention that about last night's game. Speights made a couple of really, really good reads/passes. That part of his game has surprised me.

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JohnMagee reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 13:15
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I started noticing it in the Detroit game, he made this EXCELLENT entry pass to a cutter, it was a thing of beauty, crisp, fast, not to hard, right in the hands of the target...after years of watching sam try and pass having bigmen with such passing ability (two of them) is a marvel

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Sean reply to JohnMagee on Nov 12 at 17:28
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I think the PO has actually hastened the development of that part of M16's game. Especially playing the 5 spot

You know what happens to teams that have talent but no direction...they hover around .500, sometimes shock you with a win, sometimes shock you with a loss, but generally people dont care. The thing that is troubling with this team is, I personally think that the concerns at the end of last year...certain players....not playing the game that inhibits a total team effort. If you have someone(s) that do things a little differently, but have a team first attitude thats fine...if you have player(s) that are me first, your team is going to have spotty chemistry, and you are going to start to go below 500...if your team is talented...has no direction...has some spotty chemistry....and has willie green..haha you are going to go below 500...

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DeanH reply to AndyF on Nov 12 at 12:47
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Agree 100%, I think you hit the nail on the head!

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deepsixersuede on Nov 12 at 13:11
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Did anybody else think," I ain!t giving this ball up to anybody",when Elton took it coast to coast early;he seems to be putting more and more pressure on himself.

Yep, although he did beat all of the Nets down the floor while dribbling, so I didn't really have a problem with it. He likes bringing the ball up, apparently. During one broadcast Pinkney said EJ is encouraging that. Not sure why.

Not sure (and don't care to find out) what everyone's arguing about above, but basically this game is another case in point of the two greatest fears any non-insanely-optimistic Sixers fan had going into the season - namely, Brand was likely done (offensively anyway), and EJ doesn't coach defense. And so we lurch towards another 7th or 8th seed, or maybe even a lottery pick. Which may not be the worst thing in the world. With a talented young power forward we could really be quite a good team in a few years. Not that that's what you hope for, yet, but in the long term I'm not sure how this team becomes a contender one day unless Thad develops into a big-time scorer, or Brand turns back the clock, or Lou becomes an All-Star, or a bunch of other things that are unlikely to happen. So another big piece acquired by way of the draft might be the one way we ever get especially good.

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JohnMagee on Nov 12 at 13:32
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. With a talented young power forward we could really be quite a good team in a few years.

Low Lottery isn't much better than 7/8 seed east picking anyway - likelihood of moving up after spot 9 very very low....

Don't we have a talented young power forward, point guard, small forward and shooting guard (realtively young even)?

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Tray reply to JohnMagee on Nov 12 at 17:16
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I was kind of thinking of Speights as a talented young center, given the way the center position has evolved into 7-foot stiffs and talented power forwards masquerading as 5's.

I like him at either position, just need a really strong rebounder next to him, and preferably a guy who can handle the tough low-post matchups. Marcin Gortat would've been perfect :(

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JohnMagee reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 17:47
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But the magic weren't letting go of gortat (who knows why since they ain't using him much) so you gotta let that go - it's not like the billy wagner kevin youkilis thing I can't let go of - we had NO shot at gortat :)

Defensively, EJ does not have a plan or is implementing it very badly. The rotations are crazy and different often times. We can't even honestly defend a Hassell/Boone pick and roll, which is crazy. The easiest way would be to just go under the screen on Hassell. Brian hit the nail on the head too, does a Princeton work against the zone because it looks like 15 seconds of wasted time and a jacked three.

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JohnMagee reply to Rich on Nov 12 at 13:59
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We can't even honestly defend a Hassell/Boone pick and roll,

In Jordans 'defense' - this team hasn't been able to defend the pick & roll since the rat left.

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Court_visioN on Nov 12 at 14:47
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One thing I want to point out: this was Jrue Holiday's first time he got off the pine in a road game this season.

With all of the commotion about rotations and who is playing, I'm curious to see who you think should play. I would personally play the starters, Speights, Kapono, Jrue, Smith, and Carney at most. That's a 10 man rotation. The starters can get some rest easily with this. We played 11 guys last night, and I think that contributes to our sloppy play. They need to build chemistry and if there's a new 5 guys every night. As far as the bigs go, Smith may be in the doghouse right now, but maybe try and get him in with Sammy and Speights with Elton in the middle of games. Sammy and Speights should close as of now.

I meant if there's a new 5 guys every night, there will be no chemistry. With a new offense and defense, that will make it harder and harder to play together.

He's effectively using a 12-man rotation, each game a new player gets a DNPCD, last night it was Smith's turn.

10 is a good number for your rotation, unless you're doing something different, like pressing a lot, which the Sixers don't do. I'd probably go with this for the time being:

Starters

Speights
Brand
Thad
Iguodala
Lou

Subs

Sam
Kapono
Jrue
Carney
Smith

4 bigs (MS, EB, JS, SD), 4 wings (TY, JK, RC, AI), 4 guards (LW, AI, RC, JH)

With Carney and Iguodala able to slide from the wing to a guard position. I'd completely do away with small lineups for the time being. Willie and Ivey would only get into the game under dire circumstances, Willie if we're down big and no one in the top 10 is getting the offense jump started. Ivey if you want to run some kind of crazy pressure on defense to force turnovers.

And to be clear, I'm not saying Jrue would play 20 minutes/game. I'm saying he'd be a part of my rotation every single night and I'd increase or decrease his minutes based on his performance in that game. If he has a rookie moment in the first half, I'd pull him, make sure he knew why, then get him back out there in the second to see if he learned.

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 15:35
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The thing that upsets me about Jrue is that he has shown a propensity to be a ball-hawk defensively. I can live with offensive mistakes if he plays hard defensively.

Me too. I seriously doubt if that aligns with our coach's priorities, however.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 19:19
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A cheeky devil spoiling for an argument might say it's somewhat like the deal with Speights vs Sam. Sammy's beast-like on defense when he's not fouling guys, but offensively a dud. Speights is a beast offensively but isn't as good defensively, tho he's not a million miles from Sam. Net-net, Speights is the man.

Jrue's a better defender, the best defensive point on the team, probably. But offensively, at this point, a bit of a crapshoot. Ivey is steadier offensively while being halfway decent defensively. Net-net, you can make an argument for continuing to give Ivey minutes if you want to try to maintain offensive flow and continue to get the PO ingrained.

Curiously, right this very second on draftexpress (not all the way up to date tho -- which may work in Jrue's favour), Ivey has a better win score/40 than Jrue.

Anyway, just to say. This is all fluid right now. Jrue will continue to make his case.

I read Ivey a lot differently from you. To me, he's a negative on the offense end no matter what. Simply not turning the ball over doesn't automatically make you a neutral factor on offense. Not being able to shoot, not being able to handle the ball, not being able to spread the defense. Essentially allowing the other team play 5 on 4 whenever you're on the floor is a negative.

What we need to see if Jrue's rookie mistakes are going to cancel out the brilliant plays we've seen, like the pick & roll w/ Brand last night, or the sweet drive and jumper from the baseline the night before. We already know the sum from Ivey is going to be less than zero, we need to know where it's going to be from Jrue.

Personally, I'll take the better defense, better size, and the possibility of offensive contribution over the known quantity in Ivey. At least until Jrue proves himself to be too wild on offense, if that ever happened.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 21:12
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And yet there the relative win scores stand. But make no mistake, we're not different in our overall opinion of Ivey, but you have to keep in mind nobody's bringing Ivey in to be a big playmaker. He's more of a defensive guy. If he can hit the odd open shot (33% from 3, one of the best, unfortunately, on the team) and make good solid passes to keep the flowing going, you couldn't really demand more from your bench guard, nevermind 3rd stringer.

I think the difference between us here might be in the emphasis on turnovers. You don't seem to think much of them, which seems to be in keeping with the slam-wow crowd. TOs are the last things to be listed often enough (for example, try finding Jrue's high school TO rate. it's like it's not even a category.).

I think Jrue's going to prove himself eventually but if your priority is on getting smooth reps for your PO, you don't need a rook (or anybody) disrupting the flow with a risky pass. It's a trust thing, I suspect. It's going to come. We're seeing the flashes. Trust. But so far, in this offense, Ivey's maintaining his career 2:1 A/TO and being selective with his shots while guarding his man well without fouling. There is a reasonable case to be made that coach shouldn't be fired for playing Ivey more than Jrue at this point in the season.

But we can agree to disagree on that.

p.s. Ivey's the same height, if not taller, than Jrue.

I can't find a pre-draft measurement for Ivey on draftexpress. They list him at 6'3". Jrue measured 6'3" & 1/4 w/out shoes. I'd say it's a safe bet that Jrue's taller.

As for WS/40, I'm not even sure what that stat is. It can't be win shares per 40 minutes, because that would be a very small fraction. That's neither here nor there though. This illustrates my point. In the first game that Jrue saw a decent run in the NBA, he had a game score of 8.6, in 15 minutes of action.

Last season, Ivey played 71 games, never matched that number. Not once. I'd rather take a chance on a guy who can make things happen on both sides of the floor than play a guy who's going to be a zero on one end, if you're lucky.

And no, I don't ignore turnovers, nor assists. But I do realize that all assists are not created equal and the same goes for turnovers. Careless turnovers on the perimeter, on passes that have no impact on increasing the likelihood of a score are damning. Passes into the post, or out ahead on the break, or cross court to an open man drastically increase the odds of scoring on a play. Player who dare to make those type of plays are constantly pushing the envelope to create better scoring opportunities. Guys who simply stand on the outside and pass the ball to the next guy in line on the perimeter are always going to have lower turnover rates, that doesn't make them better players, I'd argue the opposite, especially on this team. I see Jrue as a playmaker who's going to take chances with the ball, and has to be given the freedom to do so. I agree with Jordan that you can't be lazy with the simple passes, and he should be punished for those kinds of mistakes, but the worst precedent you can set with a kid like him is that he'll be benched whenever he turns the ball over. That's like tying one arm behind his back.

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Real and Speightacular reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 23:15
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This does dip into the petty, but fwiw, nba.com, espn and yahoo have ivey listed at 6-4 and two of them have holiday at the same height (while one them had holiday at 6-3, i forget which). Whatever the fractions of an inch differences there may be, I think it's fair to say there's no appreciable size advantage for either.

"I'd rather take a chance on a guy who can make things happen on both sides of the floor than play a guy who's going to be a zero on one end, if you're lucky."

A zero is better than a negative, which is what we often saw from Jrue over the summer, nevermind what might've been going on in closed practices.

You can talk about how dull and safe Ivey's passes are compared against the exciting envelope-pushing passes that Jrue might try til the cows come home, until you remember that the PO is not a traditional offense that begs for a break-em-down, fancy passer. Just the opposite, it relies on steady, sure, crisp passes and simple ball movement. the opportunities come from the players running around til someone makes a mistake and --boom-- the backdoor pass (or whatever) is there.

In this offense, quick but steady wins the race.

It's time to install the offense. I want an emphasis on steady play from my guards. Lou's doing it. Willie, heavens, is doing it. This is what is going to help the reps for ingraining the PO. If it was crucial at this stage of the season to have Jrue doing more, I'd go that way but I think that's where we differ. My emphasis is on the PO, Jrue I can afford to baby along for the first while until I feel I can trust him out there.

Yank-for-mistake is the time-honoured way of getting rookies' (esp 19yro non-lottery mid first rounders) attention. It works. As long as coach isn't following it up with extended beration, I think Jrue'll come out better for it in the end. Same "tough love" S8s got last year.

You see, this is the disconnect for me. Yes, the simple mechanics of the offense are basic low-risk passes around the perimeter while players move, but you don't truly take advantage of the offense until you start throwing the difficult passes, backdoors for example, skip passes, bounce passes to take advantage of the roller on P&Rs, entry passes to the post, kickouts from the post. These aren't simple passes, these take playmaking skills, something Jrue has (I believe) and something Ivey and Green are sorely lacking.

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 15:29
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I would definitely do away with small lineups. Let's play two bigs at all times and if you have to play Thad at 4 for a couple of minutes, make it short, and put EB or Sammy with him. No more Thad and Speights for long stretches.

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DeanH reply to Brian on Nov 12 at 16:54
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Where is Bill Green????

i would like to see Speights, Sammy, Iggy, Jrue and Kapono get some burn together. We need to start re-thinking our starting line-up. this squad should be able to defend, board and shoot, atleast a little.

I am also up for a little more Jrue at the one and Lou at the 2.

What do you think about pairing Brand with Jason Smith and Speights with Sam? i think that might help with the P.O. spacing.

I think any combo of bigs other than Smith/Speights is worth giving a long look at. And I prefer Smith/Speights over any of this small garbage Jordan is so impressed by.


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