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Should We Want Monta?

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Court_visioN on Nov 18 at 3:14
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I wouldn't be thrilled with the trade, but it seems a much better alternative and it seems like a much more legitimate squad than a team trying to fit Thad Young in as an undersized 4. With this lineup you can count on Monta playing the point at times (probably more than we'd expect given Eddie Jordan's track record) with probably Carney and Kapono coming off the bench for the wings. And I can live with that - on the plus side there really isn't any way the Sixers play small ball with this roster, right? Unless EJ is delirious enough to think Kapono can handle guarding PFs in the post?

"Ellis is two-and-a-half years older than Thad, he doesn't help solve the Sixers perimeter shooting or defensive woes all that much, but he does represent the best case scenario of what we can hope for from Thad at the four. A guy who will score efficiently and can carry the team on the offensive end for spurts. I'd much rather have that type of player in his natural position, with good rebounding numbers from the position to boot, than have an under-sized PF who you need to have on the floor, no matter what damage he's doing on the glass or the defensive end. You can hide Ellis' shortcomings to keep him on the floor, you can't hide Thad's deficiencies at the four, not for an entire game, and not during crunch time against good teams (see games 2-6 of last year's first round for numerous examples)."

Well, the simple solution to that is to play Thad at his natural position.

This Thad at the 4 thing is absurd. 10 games is not a valid sample size to figure out if Iggy and Thad can play together. Iggy was having a good start to the season, and Thad was coming out of it offensively. Most of Thad's defensive problems were correctable IMO with experience. So putting Thad at the 4 makes absolutely no sense, not in the short term (replacing Brand in the starting lineup for Carney makes us a worse team, IMO) and definitely not in the long term.

"But did you see how well those five were hitting their jumpers at the end of the Bull's game. They were really getting after it. It reminded me of Willie in the Nets game. Man, that guy can really shoot the ball at times." - Eddie Jordan

"Well, the simple solution to that is to play Thad at his natural position."

Absolutely, but do you have any confidence that will happen? We're 10 games in and Jordan is already talking about moving him to the 4. Say he plays the 4 this entire season, then do they start over with him at the 3 next year?

I mean, I agree wholeheartedly that the best direction for the team is TY/AI at the 3/2, but even if that was clearly the direction the team was headed, this would still be a tough decision. With zero faith that Jordan sees Thad as a three, and/or is willing to play him there, I think you'd have to pull the trigger, because I believe for better or worse, Jordan is the coach for 2 years, minimum.

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deepsixersuede on Nov 18 at 8:11
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L.Will.,Jason,Willie[exp. in 2 years] and 2-#1picks for Montae.We keep Thad and he becomes our Ginobli off the bench.I have to stop putting whiskey in my coffee!!

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JohnMagee reply to deepsixersuede on Nov 18 at 9:41
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And the warriors hang up the phone the moment you finish getting that out of your math.

Not sure how the kicker works but sam/thad ellis/george works on the espn trade machine.

You won't get ellis for scraps, it will cost you thad to get him.

Agree that Thad must have time at the 3 spot to grow into that role. Can't argue against the Iggy(3)/Ellis(2) combo over the Iggy(3)/Thad(4). Remeber the discussions against bringing R Sessions to come here due to his lack of a 3pt shot? Same argument against Ellis. I'd stand pat on this because I suspect Thad will have more value in the very near future due to his continued growth and reasonable contract. Also, even though he may be defending 4's, In this offense he should be playing on the perimeter. So, it may not completely hamper his growth towards playing the 3 spot.

Don't we, at some point, have to consider life without EJ as coach. I know it's extremely early but it appears he doesn't have a firm direction/grasp on what he's doing...the latest beiung the Carney for Brand experiment lol! Or will EJ hang on just long enough for us to see future stars (Thad), who have yet to reach their prime, gotten rid of for "servicable" pieces who fit his "vision"?

That's the huge stumbling block to any evaluation of a possible trade. I'd love to be able to look at defense and you know, the standard common sense aspects of building a roster, but Jordan is a complete wild card to me. No idea what he'd do with certain players, and I think he's going to be here for a while. So do we ignore how a coach is utilizing the guys currently on the roster, and how he would utilize a guy they may trade for? I don't think we can.

Does anyone know if an NBA player dies do they still count against the salary cap?
I know a guy…

I was thinking the same thing as khouse. Fire Jordan. Forget his ridiculous lineups for just a moment. With whatever substitutions he has out there, one thing is crystal clear - he has no interest in defense. It's not that the players haven't figured out the system; there is no genuine defensive philosophy for this team whatsoever.

In the last several decades, what team has won the championship playing this style of game? Rebuilding the team in EJ's vision will doom the Sixers to many years of misery.

One time, I was of the belief that Ed Stefanski could do no wrong. Clearly, I was disillusioned. To that end, I didn't pick up any games this year, and it'll stay that way if the Sixers continue down this path.

I think Carney would upgrade the defense.
That's about all he'll do.
You can't fire him yet Stefanski had budgetary constraints that's why he hired Jordan.

I don't think Carney at the three and Thad at the four is an upgrade over Thad at the three and Brand at the four. I think it's a decided downgrade, actually.

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Statman reply to Brian on Nov 18 at 15:49
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I don't think Carney at the three and Thad at the four is an upgrade over Thad at the three and Brand at the four. I think it's a decided downgrade, actually. This is an interesting point to consider. Carney and Thad would be able to stay in front of their men better and rotate faster than Thad and Brand. Thad might get overpowered in the post more than Brand, but Carney is a slightly better defender than Thad at SF. Where Carney and Thad will kill the team defensively is on the defensive glass. Thad has been horrible at 2.9 dreb/36 mins. this year -- but Carney is even worse, as 2.9 dreb/36 mins. is his career average. (By way of comparison, Lou is at 3.4 dreb/36 mins. this year.)

That's the key point, because a stop is useless if you don't secure the defensive rebound.

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bebopdeluxe on Nov 18 at 10:51
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If the alternative is Thad at the 4, then I make the deal for Ellis...does Thad/Sam for Ellis/Azubuike work under the cap?

I would fire Jordan YESTERDAY, but Comcast won't - not with 10,000 people in the stands. We're stuck with him at least until the Wizards' subsidy is gone...and probably through 2010-11 as well.

Damn.

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Crick reply to bebopdeluxe on Nov 18 at 13:43
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That's a trade I'd do in a heartbeat... don't know if it works salary-wise, though.

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JohnMagee on Nov 18 at 11:09
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Jordans only been running the team for one training camp and 10 games, and while I want his ass fired (and even have a logo for it) I don't see Comcast doing it any time soon...how many years did they give him? How many years does Mo have left? If they fire Jordan this year it's back to DiLeo as coach.

The sixers have no patience....10 games in isn't really enough to decide anything, eddie jordan has made decisions about elton brands fitness to play that brand disagrees with, this isn't going well

Ok so heres my analysis. The defense looks putrid. I don’t know how the sixers went from one of the scrappiest defending teams in the nba to having every single player collapse on the ballhandler (unnecessarily) and giving up wide open looks from three, but it sucks. People talk about how exciting the suns are to watch, but if I were a phoenix fan I would be pulling my hair out.. theres nothing more satisfying that knowing that your team can shut down the opposing scheme, and if you add fast break prowess to the equation it can be a deadly combination. It’s unfortunate that with this sieve-like defense our best offensive player went down, but to be honest, this might be a mixed blessing. Not having Speights pouring in points might either make the rest of the squad realize that they need to d up in the most intense way possible, or they need to be efficient on the offensive end (e.g. not shooting thoughtless jumpers). I love the sixers, and I only wish them success. I really hope they find a way to turn it around.

I think the sixers should try to get morrow, not ellis. He can shoot and that would let our 3 guys slash. What you think?

I'd love to have Morrow, but the reason this whole thing started is because Ellis wants out of GSW, and the team seems willing to oblige.

Ellis is making big money, the team is going nowhere, he's not happy there. It's the perfect recipe for him to be moved. Morrow's making less than a million/year, I don't think they're going to part with him.

Can someone clarify this for me? Doesn't Willie Green have an ETO next season meaning that the Sixers can terminate his contract? Also since Kapono is an RFA next season doesn't that mean the Sixers can choose not to bring him back next year?

I would give up Speights, Williams, and Green for Ellis. Only on the basis that the trade between SAC will be completed. In the end YOUR 2010/2011 lineup could look something like this:

PG: Holliday
SG: Ellis
F: Igoudala
F: Brand
C: Smith

What happens to Thad? I either package him in a trade with Brand, trade him upfront for a center or a first round pick. I know that this comepletely ruins our depth but how much lower can this team possibly go ?

Willie and Kapono both have player options for next season. Options they'd be crazy not to pick up. They'll both be here.

I don't think I'd move Speights for Monta, he's showing signs of being a dominant offensive big, and he might just turn out to be an average defensive big. That's a rare combo and much more valuable than a guy like Ellis, IMO.

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The Greek on Nov 18 at 12:17
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Trade Thad for Ellis so that the Sixers can satisfy there fetish for another undersized 2 guard who can't hit treys is just a horrible idea. There the ones that are desperate, why do we need to offer Thad? Offer Lou Williams and a box of scraps and if that isn't enough then so be it.

Is 6'3" really undersized at the two? The three-point shooting is definitely a valid concern.

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Crick reply to The Greek on Nov 18 at 13:51
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Yeah, I'd definitely make Lou part of the deal. What possible need would we have for him if we got Ellis, an upgrade in almost every conceivable way? Going with Greek's plan, Ed's first offer would be Lou, Willie, and Jason Smith... it works in the trade machine. See what GS has to say about that.

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bebopdeluxe on Nov 18 at 14:39
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There is NO WAY that GSW trades Ellis for Lou/Willie/Smith. That is fantasy-land, IMO.

If we want Ellis - we will have to trade Thad.

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Crick reply to bebopdeluxe on Nov 19 at 9:03
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Nobody thought fantasyland could exist and then Walt Disney built it in the 1950s. Why wouldn't you start with the Lou/Willie/Smith offer? There's absolutely no sensible reason to start high. You can't retract a high offer, but you can certainly add stuff to a low one!

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JohnMagee reply to Crick on Nov 19 at 9:33
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You're right, that's an extremely useful metaphor comparing the building of an amusement park by a racist misogynistic anti-semite to the world of professional basketball and comparing talent in a trade

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Crick reply to JohnMagee on Nov 19 at 11:57
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Ummmmm... what? I think you're going out of your way to sound smart on this one, bucko... but, of course, we've all seen that from you before.

It's verrrrry simple. You don't offer Thad if you have any reason to believe it might... just might... take less than him to get what you're after! It ain't rocket science, captain stupid. LOL

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bebopdeluxe reply to Crick on Nov 19 at 12:21
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You also what the guy on the other side of the phone to stay on the line...as opposed to laughing uncontrollably and hanging up on your azz.

I think The Greek is onto something here! With Jrue likely to take over at some point anyway, package Williams et al for a player this team really needs! Which, as others have said, I'm not certain is Ellis! And as you Brian & Terry (great post btw) pointed out, defense wins championships & even though EJ proclaimed they'd defend, it's been nothing but coach-speak up to this point, which, again, is early I know. But man...after watching this team degrade even from the advances made under an overmatched coach (Cheeks)& a "filler" (DiLeo) I'm finding it extremely tough to be optimistic regarding the "bill of goods" ES was sold!

I just don't see the team getting any better with this one. We need to get better defensively, plain and simple. I know this is not possible with our coach, but for some reason, I don't feel that Ellis would thrive in this offense enough to offset the defense. He's a bullet running the floor and a superb finisher, but I'd rather have Andre Miller with him at the point than Lou. That's two fairly young shoot-first players in the backcourt and it worked with Baron Davis, but he was unbelievable that year. Eddie Jordan wouldn't give Lou and Monta the keys like Nellie would, but defensively he is just as clueless, so that's a similarity.

I am not ready to move Thad. He is just a few months legal, still developing while dealing with his 4th coach since high school. Andre/Thad at the wings is the future, end of story. Ellis is not worth changing that.

At this point, I am simply running out the string, waiting for EJ to be fired after next season. I am hoping that this exposure to the Princeton Offense might help our young core become more aware offensively for the next coach(who will hopefully stress defense and the running game). That's the only thing I can ask for right now. Well, that and acquiring a true defensive anchor either in the draft(like Alabi) or Free Agency.

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JohnMagee reply to Sean on Nov 18 at 16:02
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I am not ready to move Thad. He is just a few months legal, still developing while dealing with his 4th coach since high school. Andre/Thad at the wings is the future, end of story

Unless of course they decide, yet again, that Thad is better at the 4...you want it to be end of story - but Thad has probably spent more minutes as a PF in Philadelphia than a SF

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bebopdeluxe reply to Sean on Nov 18 at 16:42
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I am SO tired of waiting for the "future" of Iggy at the 2 and Thad at the 3...it was supposed to happen LAST season...then it was supposed to happen THIS season...now you say you are willing to wait until NEXT season...

Erk.

I guess Monte could be EJ's new Hibachi... Is that a good thing?

Raises some P.O. questions. Doe you need to be a 3 pt shooter to be an effective player in the P.O., or would Monte's midrange jumper be a good fit?

Will the P.O. ever fit with players like Iguodala and Brand. if no, should they be moved, and why the Hell did you bring in a P.O. coach if the team is paying 180M for 2 guys who won't fit with the new coach?

If you like watching train wrecks, this current Sixers squad, as constituted is must see TV.

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Rich reply to tk76 on Nov 18 at 17:09
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Arenas, Jamison, and Butler, the three most successful players (along with Stevenson) shot a lot of threes. So far, it looks like the mid-range game has only worked with a big guy who can stretch the floor.


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