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Andre Iguodala Is NOT Overpaid

Agree to your very limited point... that Iguodala is not being overpaid this year. Next year's 12.3M is fair too.

The problem is that he will then be paid 13.5/14.7/15.9 in his last 3 seasons of his deal. Those seasons should be when the current young core are all in their prime. Those should be the core window of opportunity.

But coupled with Brand's 17M/18M for 2 of those 3 years, and the Sixers will be locked out of adding anything to the roster. You have to group those 2 contracts together, since they were decided on at the same time.

I guess they thought the cap would be through the roof by then... ooops. probably something ES learned as a mortgage broker... one of his 3 year variable exploding ARMs.

If you take Brand out of the equation, Iguodala will be somewhat overpaid those last 3 years- unless he really ups his game. I'm sure he'd still be worth it for a good team, and probably will be very tradable.

Do you think Iguodala will play out his contract in Philly?

Personally, as a broken fan, I'm beyond caring whether he plays here or elsewhere. Trading Iguodala would be a huge step back, but they not exactly going anywhere with him, and Brand may be here for the duration.

The bit about not being overpaid this year is short-sighted. Every guy on that list has escalating deals, in two years, their contracts will rise in line with Iguodala's, if not rise much, much more because they'll be signing new deals, mostly for the max.

johnrosz on Dec 23 at 20:01

Any chance his stats are inflated because he's on a bad team? For a winning team I would agree that his contract is well worth it, but not for this team. They ask too much of him, he isn't a go to guy, he isn't ever going to be a great 3 pt shooter or a guy that's an automatic jump shooter. He just isn't a natural scorer. Brian, do you feel that the Sixers can realistically build a contender around Iguodala?

Around Iguodala and Brand making 30M and 34M from 20011-13 is the even bigger question. If that is 1/2 then cap your only shot would be to have a superstar on the rookie salary scale (like a John Wall.)

So if your answer is an emphatic no... what do you do? You can't just punt the next 3 seasons. You have to take extreme measures to put this team back onto a route that can result in a contender- even if that means absolute crap on the floor.

They should have blown things up at the AI trade instead of bringing in Miller and Smith. Someone will have to do it eventually. So better to bring in the wrecking ball while most of your core is still 19-23 and 2 years from a pay day.

I completely disagree with getting rid of Iguodala. He's going to be 30 when this contract is up, 18 months younger than Kobe is right now. I sort of get what you're saying about the cap space, but my question to you would be what exactly are you going to do with the cap space? Three years down the road, when the rest of the team is hopefully ready to compete, you're going to be looking for a guy exactly like Iguodala, if he's willing to come play in Philadelphia, he's probably not going to be as good as Iguodala and you're going to have to pay him more money than you would've been paying AI9 in the first place.

Brand is 30 and I've already said they should be looking to move him because Eddie Jordan has officially set this franchise back at least a year, probably more, and the odds of them becoming contenders in the span of his contract shrink by the day, but trading Iguodala is just a flat out stupid move no matter which way you slice. Unless you think they're so far away it isn't going to happen in the next five years.

johnrosz reply to tk76 on Dec 23 at 20:08

Yeah, sometimes I think this roster would be awesome if they just had that potential franchise guy(like John Wall). However, as a fellow broken fan, I'm growing tired of Iguodala's act. He got DiLeo fired, he complains all the time, he gets on teammates when they make mistakes yet he commits some awful turnovers himself. He has the Kobe ego without the Kobe game to back it up...It's not right for me to place all my frustrations with this team on Iguodala, but he has been a symbol if its mediocrity since the end of the 1st Iverson era.

Now you're just making stuff up. How did he get DiLeo fired?

Does he critique his teammates? Sure. Does he take criticism as well? Yes(Miller did direct/correct him when needed on the floor).

Does he argue with the refs too much. Yeah. But other than that, he doesn't complain, plays both ends, plays hurt, works hard.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:19

“We could have been a 50-win team,’ Iguodala said last night after the Sixers lost Game 6, 114-89, and their Eastern Conference quarterfinal to the Magic, their second six-game, first-round playoff loss in as many seasons. His solution? ‘Moves. It’s going to be a busy summer,’ Iguodala said. ‘I’m going to sit down with Ed and discuss what I think will get us over the [hump].’ As for coach Tony DiLeo, the team’s assistant GM who replaced Maurice Cheeks in December and led the club to the playoffs, well, Iguodala didn’t exactly endorse his soft-spoken boss. ‘We’ll see about that,’ he said, when asked whether DiLeo should return. ‘We’ll talk. We’ll try to get the best-case scenario.’”

No, I am not making it up. These comments still make me want to vomit.


He was talking more about personnel issues, which he can offer his opinion. An opinion that Ed took, btw.

How does that translate into getting him fired, btw? Luke-warm response that was honest, considering that DiLeo wasn't exactly Auerbach out there(granted he's better than Jordan, which isn't saying much).

Of all the rumors out there, I have heard Iguodala as coach-killer till now.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:34

I guess you just don't see it the way that I do. This happened around the time that Theo shit all over Dileo, Iggy had a chance to at least deflect some of that criticism, or put out the fire somewhat, but he didn't make any attempt to do so.

Jeff reply to johnrosz on Dec 23 at 20:45

It's kind of hard to endorse a coach just after getting torched by a Howard-less Magic team at home.
What people forget to realize is most players get interviewed soon after the game when emotions are still running high.

He gave a non-answer. Your statement implies you believe that Iguodala didn't actually agree with Theo's statement. I think he did, given that Theo's criticism was not off-base. Similar to Brand's critiques of Jordan this year.

All that said, he didn't commit one way or the other

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:54

oook....so if he agreed with Theo, he aided in getting the guy fired. Am i missing something? I believe that Dileo would have been a good choice for this year if the organization is that strapped for cash.(I am assuming the subsidy from Washington had a lot to do with EJs hiring

Jeff reply to johnrosz on Dec 23 at 20:58

No, Jordan being friends with Stefanski had more to do with it.

So, by having an opinion, he's a coach-killer? He didn't kill the guy, but he didn't endorse him either. You've never had an opinion about your boss? As long as there is no evidence of him pulling a tantrum and demanding DiLeo's dismissal(like Webber did to O'Brien), there's no fire here

Jesse reply to rswknight on Dec 24 at 1:03

Do you honestly think that when Iguodala talked to Ed he didn't ask for a new coach? Please. No, he did not say that explicitly to the media (um what player ever has besides Ratliff and he had one foot out the door), but it's pretty clear he didn't want Dileo back. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. If we had gotten a decent coach this year then that would have been a positive, but you cannot read that comment and ignore the underlying meaning.

If Ed asked him a direct question and he answered it, that's not getting your coach fired. Getting your coach fired is specifically pushing for it, aggressively, like what Kidd did to Scott in NJ or Skiles in Phoenix. Jordan did it to Collins and Magic did it to Westhead. That's getting a coach fired.

As the best scorer? no As the best player? Yes. Ideally, he will be a multidimensional playmaker who is the engine of a team whose leading scorers will be matured versions of Thad & M16. He is Pippen Redux.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:11

Iguodala would be offended that you consider him as a Pippen, as he has often told us, he is THE GUY, he's Jordan, and don't you forget it.

Um, no.

His favorite player is Scottie, as he's said repeatedly. He admits himself that he is not always as assertive as he should be and as his coaches WANT him to be. Jordan has criticized him publicly for not shooting ENOUGH.

You're extrapolating.

Does he realize that he's the best player on the team? Yes. Have the coaches specifically demanded that he be the #1 option since AI left? Yes.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:28

Look I agree with you, I am not blaming him, he is the go to guy out of necessity. But he is NOT a go to guy, to me he's a 2nd option on a good team, a 3rd option on a great team. I'm not sure he puts up 20/5/5 on a better team, but we really have no way of knowing. I hope I am wrong about the guy, maybe Ed brings in the right guys so that he can be the engine that you speak of...but right now I don't see him fitting here.

Jeff reply to johnrosz on Dec 23 at 20:56

Counting stats a player puts up are irrelevent. There is not a single player out there that can create a winning team.
Every good player needs the proper pieces put around him. Iguodala is surrounded by a bunch of young, not-fully-developed players and a terrible coach/system. That's not his fault. There are a bunch of really good players out there that are not blessed with the right coach and system for their skills.

My only fear is that Stefanski will be allowed to trade players to fit around Jordan rather than Iguodala. I honestly believe they could go 0-5 on this road trip and Jordan will still keep his job and the media will still write pathetic stories about pre-game shoot-arounds instead of tackling real issues.


I've been saying for years, surround Iguodala with premium finishers and he will flourish. Hell, Both Kobe & DWade finished in the vicinity of .500 before, does that make their numbers empty?

His stats are not inflated. I'd disagree with that, because by a variety of measurements, the Sixers have been much better when he's on the floor, and drop off without him.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:22

Is he asked to score 20 a night on a better team? I don't believe so. What is the value of averaging 5 assists when you routinely turn the ball over 5 or 6 times as well. He dribbles himself into a lot of trouble and he often finds himself forcing dreadful shots. I like the guy a lot because of his defensive mindedness and all around game, but he shouldn't be the best player on your team if you plan to be a contender

Um, he averages 3 TOs a game.

He could average an easier 18+ on a better team because he would not draw as much attention, letting him be able to make plays.

As an example, the Denver game when Denver loaded up on AI. That was the 1st time in years that Iguodala was the primary focus of the defense and it showed. Of course, Denver realized that AI was not AI, and went back to focusing on Dre, which is one reason why they lost.

Again, he should not be the best SCORER, doesn't mean that he cannot be the best player.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:41

The first half where he was taking bad shots and hitting them? Hey if he can do that every night, great, we've got a true superstar on our hands. I didn't say he averages 5 turnovers, I said he ROUTINELY turns the ball over that often. And yeah youre right, that number is high, my apologies. He has turned the ball over 4+ times in about 1/3rd of the games. I really like Iggy's game, but like tk76 I don't think see this team succeeding with Iggy in the plans.

The key here is that he dropped numbers fairly easily. Now, he plays with every defense in his lap. That game, he got forgotten a bit, and it showed. He got easier shots. He also hit some bad ones, but he did get into the lane quite often and quite easily

Jeff reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 21:03

I think you could go so far as to saying that Iguodala is talented enough to hit bad shots when given the chance to warm up with a few easy ones.
In every game except that one, Iguodala tries to facilitate first, then get his shots.
Imagine what he could do when Jrue develops into a great PG.

Agreed. Jrue can get him those easy buckets that can help him find a rhythm. Jrue hit him on an alley-oop, which was the 1st time since Miller left. He used to score 4-6 points a game by moving without the ball and letting Miller set him up. If Jrue becomes that plus D, Iguodala will be fine

Mike reply to johnrosz on Dec 23 at 20:33

c'mon man you've been making up numbers all night, in every post. i do agree that he is turning the ball over too much right now, but he averages 5.5 assists & 3.1 turnovers for the season.

Statman reply to johnrosz on Dec 23 at 20:39

Any chance his stats are inflated because he's on a bad team? For a winning team I would agree that his contract is well worth it, but not for this team. They ask too much of him, he isn't a go to guy, he isn't ever going to be a great 3 pt shooter or a guy that's an automatic jump shooter. He just isn't a natural scorer. Brian, do you feel that the Sixers can realistically build a contender around Iguodala?

I offer several points for rebuttal:
- Iguodala compiled pretty much the same stats the last two years as the best player for playoff teams. They weren't an elite team but also were not a bad or losing team (not by my definition at least).
- Iguodala hasn't been good this year in end-of-game situations, but he was sensational as a go-to guy for most of last year. The haters tend to ignore his performance in the clutch last year.
- Iguodala may not be a "natural scorer" (a subjective measure to be sure), but he is certainly an efficient scorer. Using True Shooting percentage, Derek Bodnar's favorite stat that accounts for free throws taken and made, Iguodala has a higher career TS% than anyone else on the Sixers, including Thad, Speights, Brand, Kapono, etc. Even this year, when Iguodala has shot by far the lowest FG% of his career, his TS% is the same as Thad's, 52.5%. I will agree that Iguodala's efficiency has taken a hit this year because he's playing in an offense that doesn't favor his strengths.

In short, I think the Sixers would be making a mistake to dump Iguodala just to get rid of his salary. On the other hand, I'd be happy for him if he went to a contender where he'd be more appreciated than he is in Philly (where is probably the most disliked hometown athlete this side of McNabb). For example, how much do you think LeBron would like to have him on the Cavs?

Great response.

johnrosz reply to Statman on Dec 23 at 21:37

It is a great response, I'm having trouble coming up with a counter point haha.... A few quick comments though. I still believe the team the last 2 years was pretty bad, being a 6-8 team in the East is nothing to write home about so I don't believe that's an accurate way to refute possible inflation. Also, I'd like to note that Iguodala has a really difficult time operating out of the double team(as we saw in the Denver game). Not something I look for from my number one option. Melo and Kobe get doubled all the time but they don't dribble the ball off their foot or travel(I'm aware they have better weapons, im strictly talking about dribbling/passing out of the double team)

No one is saying he's a number one, they are saying that he can be the best player on the team. Big difference.

As an example, Nash is the best player on the Suns, not the best scorer. Howard is the best player on the Magic, not the best scorer. Garnett was the best player on the 08 Celtics, not the best scorer.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 22:24

Both of those guys are better scorers(in their primes) than Iguodala can ever imagine being. KG was a dominant scorer in his years in Minnesota, he only deferred and became the anchor when paired with 2 hall of famers in Boston. Nash possesses ball handling abilities and court vision that Iggy does not, his ability to create is 10 times that of Iggy. You are using these guys as examples of secondary scoring options that are the top players on their teams, however they both were explosive offensive weapons that possessed skills superior to those of Iggy. I think I'd need some different examples before i could agree with your argument

Garnett, especially, was never a dominant scorer. His career average is 20 ppg, a tick above Iguodala's production since AI left. Most of the time, Garnett was between 20-22 ppg as the primary option.

Pippen is another example, he was the best player on a team that won 55 games and should've went back to the Finals(bad officiating).

We have different definitions of dominance then.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 24 at 1:36

Starting in 99-00 when he started to really hit his prime, he averaged 22.5 points for the rest of his duration in Minnesota. His career high in points is 47, you may think very highly of Iguodala but he will never be capable of getting anywhere near that number. Garnett averaged 24 a year more than once. You may think highly of Iguodala, but my point is that these 2nd option guys you speak of are all greater offensive threats than Iguodala.

So, from age 23-30, Garnett averaged 22+
Scottie did not crack the 20 ppg barrier until he was 26, floating around 17 per game before that.

Iguodala has been in the 18-19 range since he turned 23.

Do I think Iguodala can crack 40 in a game? Maybe, depends on how hot he gets(especially from 3) and if he will keep attacking through the doubles. He has had hot games where he used the extra defensive attention to start making plays for others(in Mo's offense, not this crap their running now).

But you're missing the point. Their scoring ability is not what makes them the best player on the team. Garnett was the best player on the C's while still averaging just 20. It would Iguodala's versatility that sets him apart, not the idea that he might drop 50 on you.

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 24 at 2:07

I understand your point, I guess my point is that you're using examples of guys that have all around games that facilitate the offense as a whole.And while I agree that Iggy has an excellent all around game, the games of the guys you used as examples are all better than Iguodala in the scoring department. If you look at Iggy's career numbers, he is very comparable to what Richard Jefferson was during the NJ years. If i had to compare him to a player on a contending roster, I'd probably go with RJ. Agree or disagree?

Actually I'd go with Pippen.
Though RJ is a lesser comp.
Unless you are referring to present day RJ w/ Spurs.
Lamar Odom mixed with Artest's role is a very good example too

I value Iguodala. I just think this team is headed nowhere for a long time. Especially if Brand and Iguodala stay on the team eating up progressively more of the cap. They are this team's equivalent of the looming national debt...

Unless you can tell me how they get rid of Brand's contract or find some magically way to add more players, I'm ready to just fully blow this up. I'll be a fan of Iguodala on his next team- but despite his bright future, I think he has to go.

Rebuild around the cheap parts. Everyone else is under the rookie scale for at l;east 2 more seasons. I honestly think they have a better foundation with the 19-23 year olds all under rookie scale deals than that core plus Iguodala and Brand eating up all of the cap.

Here is my conclusion: http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=970468

I'd agree with you if Dre were 28, like Joe Johnson. Then I could see moving him on to clear room for "the next gen." But he's just 25.

For perspective, Roy is 25 and just signed an even bigger deal that hasn't kicked in yet. Carmelo is 25. Granger is 26, Bosh is 25, Devin Harris is 26, Gordon is 26, Deron Williams is 25.

I'd agree with moving Brand and going forward with a youth movement spearheaded by Iguodala.

And I do agree that the big mistake was keeping Miller and Smith. King was trying to keep his job and he screwed up

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 20:49

We are in agreement that 1 of Iguodala or Brand should be moved then? I think you have to be realistic about the situation though, does anyone really want Elton Brand(EJ hasn't helped his stock) but I just don't see anyone giving us some relief from that contract. Iguodala is the more movable piece.


If Brand keeps dropping double-doubles in limited minutes, a team like CLE might take a swing, especially if they don't get Jamison. They have to win NOW.

Then again, if he's back to dropping double-doubles routinely while playing limited mins, do you still want to move him?

johnrosz reply to rswknight on Dec 23 at 21:26

Personally, I do because by the time this team might be ready to contend, or even close to contending, he will be what 34? The injury concerns should still be there for all of us, although he is indeed coming around. Elton might actually be a good fit in Cleveland, they rely on Varajo a lot in that offense, way more than they should at least. Swap out Varajo and insert Elton into that half court set,could be interesting...
I guess we'd get Shaq? Ai and Shaq on the same squad,all we'd need is a time machine and we'd be good to go

If I thought they could simply move Brand I'd be fine with keeping Iguodala.

But imagine summer of 2001... right now the future would have much more hope if they had Jrue(21)/Lou(25)/Speights(24)/Young(23)/Smith(24)/Carney(25) and 2 top 6 picks along with gobs of cap space. Iguodala is a great player, but taking him out of the equation (at 13.5M/14.7/16M going forward) makes more sense.

Here's the thing:

What premier free agent might be available? And you are assuming that you didn't extend Thad already. What would their cap look like that year sans Brand anyway?

I agree, getting rid of just Brand would be great. they would be 20M+ under the cap without Brand.

As for the cap space- its not just for signing a FA. You can use that space to make moves. For example- as things stand now, the Sixers will let those 20M (Sam/WG/Kapono) expire to stay under the cap. But if they know they have space they could trtade those expirings plus a young player for a superstar- like the Gasol/AI/KG trades. Without the capspace your hands are tied.


Trades are an iffy thing though. We have to be willing to take out the teams 2 best players on the off-chance a star forces a change of scenary right during our window of opportunity. Very risky

Gasol, AI and KG weren't traded to teams with cap space. They were traded to teams completely up against the cap with expiring contract(s) and a young piece or two to throw in (in Boston's case). Exactly what the Sixers will be next season.

I can't think of one legit superstar who was traded to a bad team with a bunch of cap space. Not a single one. I can't think of one who willingly signed with a bad team as a free agent either. Maybe Grant Hill when he went to Orlando?

I just think when you say blowing this thing up, you aren't really talking about enticing a game-changing talent to come here either via trade or free agency. You're talking about rolling the dice that you'll get a guy like that in the draft and then maybe using the cap space you generate to get a guy on Iguodala's level to complete your roster. I just can't get behind that.

eddies' heady's on Dec 23 at 20:32

I must say that I am elated that some intelligent discussion and opinions are occurring about these players and contracts and management instead of the same 'ol in-the-box head coach crap. I've argued for weeks that there is so much more going on here than just the coach and it finally is surfacing.

I just don't get how when I broached the subject that we should ship Dre out of here a week or so ago that I was accused of implying that Dre was at fault for us losing and not the coach.

But others around here and Simmons suggest it and it isn't up for ridicule but open debate? I guess I get it - hated for one contrarian opinion (draft), hated forever. That's cool, because it still doesn't lessen or waver my never-ending love for the Sixers.

I think for the most part people simply ignore you.

JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Dec 24 at 12:53

Most compelling accurate analysis of the situation I've seen :)

it's because you're the only one here who consistently argues that eddie jordan is a good coach, and you can never offer 1 valid reason for your opinion. so we just dismiss everything else you say.

eddies' heady's reply to Mike on Dec 23 at 20:53

That's bull. I have never argued that he is a good coach. I've just merely taken the approach that the guy needs a large enough sample size along with a chance. I've argued since the beginning of the season that it was the players refusal to accept and buy-in to the systems and mostly their fault for our record due to lack of effort and intensity and IQ.

Brian said on the first radio show that EJ should be given the whole season as a long enough rope but then changed his mind the next week later. I'm still extending that rope because it's still early and the players still don't display consistent effort (not to mention that I predicted they would be around .333 after the first month or so of the season before I knew of any injuries or EJ's shortcomings - check the post when the schedule came out, it's there).

Look, I don't agree with everything that Brian and others say but that doesn't cause me to dismiss everything else they have to say. That's just petty and silly. Almost childlike.

It really is funny that if you don't follow in lock-and-step with the company line, then you are just prematurely brushed off. I'm probably the oldest one here, and you would know it if you go by the logic of dismissing everything someone says just because of disagreeing with a fan still extending some rope to the coach. Seriously, it makes me laugh.

johnrosz reply to eddies' heady's on Dec 23 at 20:57

Yeah but if you're older than everyone here, you've seen some GREAT basketball in your lifetime, fundamentally sound defensive minded ball, and efficient offensive ball. SO how can you sit there and tell us that EJ is a fundamentally sound coach? The jury shouldn't still be out on that one, we've got a large enough sample size to make an appropriate evaluation on that

eddies' heady's reply to johnrosz on Dec 23 at 21:30

Your sample size can't define mine. And I can't tell you whether he is a fundamentally sound coach because of numerous reasons.

1) The players never gave the systems a chance and never delved into studying the infinite reads and reactions of the playbook. They all lack IQ. They went sour on the systems very early. Spoiled brats is my best description here.

2) He got such inconsistent and lackluster effort from night to night that he couldn't set his rotations. Young, fat-pocketed kids. Who needs to give effort when you are getting $25,000 on Friday?

3) As he started to tighten up the rotations, Speights went out with Lou quickly to follow. Injuries set in.

4) He's not even the defensive coach who implemented these systems supposedly. That falls on Randy Ayers lap. (according to reports)

5) He was feeling his roster out early to see what he did/didn't have whereas I'm not sure the players extended the opportunity to feel him out. (they were sure singing his praises in the offseason and in camp)

These are just some of the valid reasons of why I haven't passed final judgment on the guy. Plus as stated earlier today on another thread, after this start I'm in the camp that I want the possiblilty of a high draft pick, franchise altering player. And at this rate with the blame heaped upon his plate by most around here, he may just be the ideal guy to get us there.

I'm exhausted of the mediocre and not-worth-mentioning seasons. I want that '80 thru '83 feeling again and this roster, in however many years, won't come close to getting us there - coach or, in particular, players.

johnrosz reply to eddies' heady's on Dec 23 at 21:48

I find it hard to believe that Thad Iggy Jrue and Elton, along with Smith and Green did not study the Princeton. We don't have the personnel to run it, that's why it doesn't work to this point. You are assuming that the guys on this team are lazy because they're rich. I think you're wrong there, the guys on this team do work hard, Ill give them that. They just simply don't have the skill sets to run the Princeton.

You also shouldn't discount Thad as having a low b-ball IQ, hes an incredibly intelligent guy, 4.0 in high school and I believe similar in his year at GT. Ayers is not a good coach, i hope we can at least agree on that. His tenure as Sixers coach was a disaster, and if it is his defense they're running out there, it is dreadful.

eddies' heady's reply to johnrosz on Dec 23 at 22:06

Book-smart IQ and basketball IQ are entirely different.

Hell, Thad even admitted as much himself around Week 4 of the season before we played Memphis. He was smart enough to be the teacher's pet and pass all of the training camp 'quizzes' (hence his book-smart IQ) but the guy couldn't apply the same knowledge during a live game (hence his lack of bball IQ). And when one or more guys don't know which way to cut or make a particular read within a set, it disrupts the whole flow or desired look. Exactly what we were all seeing most of the season when they were attempting to run it - a bunch of chaos and disorganization.

And the players may not be lazy, but they sure have a hard time finding some inner-pride and beating-heart. Effort is the one thing that doesn't have to be coached.

What you just made an example of isn't a lack of basketball IQ, it's a lack of repetition. Knowing the right move is basketball IQ. Having to think about it and hence not reacting in time or making the wrong decision when you know the right one is simple repetition. It's why veterans are inherently better than 19-21 year old kids.

eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Dec 24 at 1:09

When you can't process information while reading and reacting during live action, that is low IQ. Example, if you know the first and second screens and cuts and the defense has reacted to those, but you can't process what your reaction or next read should be based off of what the defense has done, you have low IQ.

Repetition does not come into play here because it is a read and react system. Your reads and subsequent reactions will not be the same on any given possession. They will always vary based on what the defense is doing. Repetition is more fundamental-based whereas IQ is processing information while still reacting at the same time, kind of on-the-fly decision making.

Off-topic - Just curious, did you ever play the game on a high school level or higher? Don't fudge now, but I'm just wondering do you have a hands-on background with it or do you just do evaluation of prospects? It doesn't matter whether you did or didn't, I have just gleaned some assumptions from your responses and am just curious.

I played hoops in high school. Gave it up in college to focus on baseball.

(I also love the general tone of people who ask that question. You can deny it, but that's an attack).

And I'll just say I disagree. A very large part in all sports is muscle memory, instincts and reaction. You can definitely make the wrong decision not because you don't understand the basketball logic behind it, but because it's not second nature to you yet. Which can be corrected with experience.

I also disagree that Thad is a low basketball IQ player.

And I'll even disagree without namecalling or belittling, or questioning your qualifications to be a basketball fan.

eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Dec 24 at 12:05

How did I already know that you would take on a personal angle with your response? I ask a simple question but am somehow grouped with 'people' and 'general tones'. Go figure.

First, I didn't know it took any "qualifications" to be a "basketball fan". But it does help to have some kind of involvement with playing the game at higher levels (more than middle school or pop warner) than just being an observer from afar when making judgments or analysis of concepts and principles of the game.

In your response before this last one you clearly stated: "Knowing the right move is basketball IQ." Then in the very next line you state: "..making the wrong decision when you know the right one is simple repetition." So......which one is it?

If you KNOW the right decison but, in turn, make the WRONG one, how can that not be low basketball IQ? Remember, the player KNEW the right decision but didn't react instinctively within the game. That is simply low basketball IQ. When you can't instinctively react while readily knowing something, repetition has no bearing here because it is something the player already KNEW. If you knew it - that is your book-smarts, but if you don't apply it - that is your lack of basketball smarts.

You then say: "You can definitely make the wrong decision not because you don't understand the basketball logic behind it, but because it's not second nature to you yet."

If you understand the logic behind a decision but don't apply it and make the wrong one, experience is just a convenient excuse for lacking IQ. Look at Lou and Sam as examples. They are both experienced. But Sam won't kick out an o-board to get a good look (when after all these years he has to know that is the right decision) instead going back up with it. Lou will fall in love with his jumper when his best asset is attacking the hoop. Lou knows he can get by most defenders but his low basketball IQ comes into play because he wants to take the easy way out and fire up a jumper. He knows the right decision is to attack but his lack of basketball smarts takes over. When Lou knows a guy he is guarding is right-handed but doesn't position himself to force the guy left to his weak hand, again being experienced, that is low basketball IQ. So no, wrong decision making is not automatically corrected with experience.

Because he is articulating the difference between logic and instinct. Basketball can move too fast for you to have time to think it through. That's why you have repeated drilling, so that players can perform such actions on auto-pilot. It is the same in every sport, especially a sport that relies on quick reactions.

Drilling helps, but you also can't fully teach a good feel for the game. Some players (like Sam) will make the wrong decsion on the fly. Some just can't quickly see the entire floor or process what defender has left his man.

Other players, like Jrue, have a natural feel for the game. It is made better through repetition and coaching, but its also something unique to the player.

Its much like a running back in football. Some can just flow tio the hole while others can't find it. Repetition and muscle memory can only get you so far.

Oh certainly. Feel for the game also comes under instinct. Let's take your Thad vs Sam model as a good comparison. Thad has a good hoops IQ, so even when he might not do what the play dictates, he will likely make the smart play by default. Sam, on the other hand...

Practically every complaint about EJ with the Sixers can(and was) made about his tenure with the Wiz. That's why the sample size is large enough.

The defensive issues are his problem because, by many accounts, they spend most of their time working on offense, which is a major reason why their defense sucks.

He is a bad coach, period

Let's take a hard look at this for a second. These are the pieces the Sixers have, long term. The "young core" if you will.

1. Jrue Holiday - PG who can defend and create off the dribble. hopefully will evolve into a scorer, but that's not guaranteed, and really not essential.
2. Thad Young - SF/PF hybrid who has shown a tremendous knack for scoring efficiently and has increased his three-point accuracy tremendously. Has not shown the ability or willingness to defend at a high level. Extremely questionable rebounding numbers (until very recently).
3. Marreese Speights - Tremendous offensive potential at the four or the five. Range may even extend out to three eventually. Serious potential to be a 20-25ppg scorer with sick efficiency. Defense and defensive rebounding liability.
4. Lou Williams - Explosive scorer off the bench who is either unwilling or incapable of defending.

That's your core. Three guys how could really turn into top-notch scoring threats, and a PG who can defend. Say they all develop exactly that way, what role will Iguodala play on this roster if he's still around? Facilitator/Defender/Finisher, exactly what he was born to do. He would literally be the guy that held the whole thing together. Why would you want to trade him?

johnrosz reply to Brian on Dec 23 at 21:04

Well, I am speaking under the assertion that what Bill Simmons says is correct. The Sixers are making less than 500k per game, that is fact. They will be up against the cap next year from the numbers I have seen(I could be wrong, if i am please correct me) At some point they're going to have to pay these young guys, and their current cap situation may hurt their chances of doing that (Randolphs situation in Golden State)So, if I can't move Brand because his contract makes him an albatross, do i have any other choice but to move Iggy?

JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Dec 24 at 12:59

There's your flaw

Bill Simmons is hardly ever correct, about anything, if it doesn't involve New England sports, it's a lot less likely he's correct.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Dec 23 at 21:10

Check out my similar post on the Have we hit Rock Bottom article about the core.

Jeff reply to Brian on Dec 23 at 21:13

So then what they really do need is a center with the speed and shot-blocking ability of Dalembert, but one who is more competent with a developed go-to move.

I see Lou back on the bench once Jrue develops. Speights might become the starting PF down the road.

What this team needs is a coach who can teach defense and rebounding to Thad and Speights.

johnrosz reply to Jeff on Dec 23 at 21:19

"What this team needs is a coach who can teach defense and rebounding to Thad and Speights."

Agree 100 percent. I don't mind the losing as much as I mind our coaching staffs complete neglect of teaching our young guys proper defensive fundamentals. The idea of Iverson and Jordan being near our young guys when they so desperately need to learn to D up makes me cringe.

Exactly. I've been clamoring for the Defensive Anchor for a while now(Aldrich? Favors? Alabi?).

In this Pistons/Suns hybrid model Stefanski wants to build, we are missing our Ben Wallace.

JohnEMagee reply to Jeff on Dec 24 at 13:01

What this team needs is a coach who can teach defense and rebounding to Thad and Speights.

That's a separate issue (to me) than the head coach, that's an assistant coach, open up the comcast coffers, bring back Moses Malone, offer ewing a big fat check, find out if karl malone wants to do some coaching - but that problem isn't one for the head coach

This is how I answered rswknight at realgm (sorry to be having the same conversation on multiple sites):

Assume we can't move Brand. Here are your 2 options come Summer 2011 IMO:

1. Jrue(21)/Lou(25)/Speights(24)/Young(23)/Smith(24)/Carney(25) and two top 6 picks along with gobs of cap space (30M+!)

2. That same core above plus Iguodala and Brand and 5-8M of cap space. Iguodala at 13.5M/14.7M/16M going forward. And Brand at 17M/18M(at least a big expiring...) Those contracts and Young's 8M cap hold get me to that meager amount under the cap.

Which option do you prefer? Which gives you the best chance to make additional moves to land a superstar?

Of course if you can just move Brand you can keep Iguodala.

In reality you likely will have to give away a good young player to get someone to take Brand. Its all a money thing.

So your whole point is that the only way they get rid of Brand is if they package him with Iguodala? That's a different conversation than the one I was having and it's something I'd have to give serious thought to.

Option three is something you should probably take a look at as well:

3. Jrue(21)/Lou(25)/Speights(24)/Young(23)/Smith(24)/Carney(25)/Iguodala(27) and about $20M in cap space. Probably 1 top six pick, if they don't get rid of Jordan yesterday.

That would be great. But how would you ever get rid of Brand while keeping all of the young core and not taking back at least 3 years of equally bad contracts.

My point is more that I'm ready to do whatever is necessary to blow it all up. get out of Brand and Iguodala's contracts even if you have to give up a bunch of other promising young players. As long as they get a clean slate- because they are going nowhere.

Of course being able to simply dump Brand's contract would be ideal... I just doubt its an option. Maybe The cavs will take him off our hands?

You keep saying get out from under Iguodala's contract, but I just find that completely inaccurate. Get out from under means you aren't getting value for the contract, and that's simply not true. I'd feel better about giving up one of the young core to move Brand's deal than I would giving up Iguodala. Honestly, it's a long shot that any one of Speights, Thad, Lou and Jrue will ever be as productive as Iguodala is right now.

I'm talking about the back end of his contract. And again, even this is only a killer in the context of Brand's deal. And they were both signed at the same time, so its natural to talk about them as a duo.

I don't see Brand and Iguodala being tied together in any way. And honestly, this comes back to the coach. Brand's value would be way, way up from where it is right now if he didn't have a coach with a vendetta against him. Give this team a real coach, give Brand the starting spot, starters minutes and even the occasional touch in a good spot for him and he's going to be putting up numbers that tell the league he's not a shell of his former self. The long this Jordan madness goes on, the harder it will be to move Brand, the more the Sixers are going to have to throw in to sweeten the deal to get him moved.

I am not as down on this talent as everybody seems to be. I would rather make the investment in a big name coach and see what happens. We were close to beating Orlando, how close I am not sure, but if Elton, Jrue and Kapono were there last year I can!t help but think it makes a difference.We have a B.Wallace of sorts in the Elton/Sam combo , don!t we ?

johnrosz reply to Brian on Dec 23 at 21:55

What team is going to be able to take back that much salary for the next 5 years? I am no capologist, but thats quite a load to take on, even assuming we are taking contracts back that are 2 or 3 years shorter....

As far as the cap is concerned, they only need to be able to fit this season's number under, which is $14.8M for Brand.

If Cleveland was interested, which they probably should be at this point, they could make the trade painlessly. Ilgauskus and Jawad Williams for Brand.

If Miami decided they need a low-post presence, they could also make the deal without impacting their rotation greatly. Udonis Haslem, James Jones and Dorrell Wright for Brand.

The Cleveland scenario is much more likely. They need to put a team around James immediately or he walks and they're left with absolute garbage.

OK- for Brian and Statman... My Dream trade:

Brand/Iguodala/Green= 30.5M


Shaq/Ilgauskas= 30.5M


You then buy out both Shaq and Z and let them resign with the Cavs.

Would either team do such madness?

Beyond the fact that a trade like that would (a) insure LeBron stays in Cleveland and (b) turn the Cavs into the Bulls of the 90s and make a legitimate title run impossible for the Sixers until maybe 2020, I'd think about it, I guess. Not sure what good all that cap space would do this summer, though. No FA in his right mind would come to Philly after seeing what happened to Brand and what a joke the front office/coaching staff is. At least in New York a premier free agent will get more national attention.

That Cavs team against the Lakers would be epic.

The Sixers would be left in as good situation. They would be 20-30M under the cap for the next 4 years. they would still have Jrue/Lou/Thad/Speights/Carney/Smith all for

You get in a new GM/Coach and in 2-3 years you would easily be the next Blazers/OKC type young star filled team ion the rise. Imagine all of the extra picks and young talent you could cherry pick with all that cap space. Look at OKC- tehy basically got Maynor for nothing, and got #1's from the Suns for nothing.

Should read Jrue/Lou/Thad/Speights/Carney/Smith all for less than 15M for 2.5 years.

And really, we can leave Carney and Smith off the list when we're talking about a young core. Neither of those guys is more than end-of-the-bench fodder. It's Speights, Thad and Jrue as starters and Lou as a points off the bench guy.

When one of these "smart" teams like OKC, POR and HOU does anything of note in the playoffs I'll start looking at them with envy. Right now, Portland has tied everything up in Roy and Aldridge, and I don't think that's a championship combo. OKC has Durant and some questionable parts around him. HOU has nothing, they're banking on cap space in two years, but I have a feeling they'll outsmart themselves when the space actually opens up.

The Sixers get ripped for making the playoffs the past two seasons, but I'd much prefer that to spinning your wheels while everyone pats you on the back for being so great at what really amounts to minor wheeling and dealing.

Miami would seem to be the best partner for us to clean house with; P.Riley may want another title before he quits, how is this five; Sam,Elton,Iggy,Wade, Chalmers and Beasley off the bench.We get Oneill,Haslem and Richardson, and maybe D.Cook or a future #1.

And then Wad Bolts and they are stuck with our two headed cap monster :)

JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Dec 24 at 13:05

At least in New York a premier free agent will get more national attention.

I disagree on this, Lebron James gets probably the most national attention of anyone in the NBA aside from Kobe, and mostly because the lakers are the lakers and have won titles, and has since he was a senior in high school, maybe there's more 'local' money going to new york for a premiere free agent, but I don't think there's any more coverage in this 24/7 flat earth world.

I think signing in New York is actually a bad move for anyone, it's a bad roster, currently in disarray, and the media is actually a lot worse in NY than any other city...Lebron enjoys a sort of 'social anonymity' being in Cleveland he might not want to give up.

I think the only benefit in signing with the Knicks is that you get more 'local' sponsorship money

That and you don't have to live in fucking Cleveland.

JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Dec 24 at 13:14

At least we're not detroit :)

Seriously though, I just find the 'big market' argument weak these days, it's a flat global world...if Lebron wants a 'bigger market' maybe he should consider houston or new jersey (just ask T-Mac)

Statman reply to tk76 on Dec 23 at 22:49

Would either team do such madness?

Creative thinking on this trade! So you're saying the Sixers would buy out Shaq and Ilgauskas right away, meaning that they would return to the Cavs within 30 days? And the Sixers would replace them with D-league players? Here's what I think:

(a) Like I said, I'd be happy for Iguodala [and Brand]. Cleveland instantly matches up better with Boston, giving them another wing defender for Pierce and Allen [Iguodala has shut down both in separate games this year]. And LeBron won't get so worn down in the playoffs with someone else to create offense.

(b) I think this trade would leave 99% of "average" Sixer fans very happy but also strangely unfulfilled, since they would have nobody left to complain about [I guess Dalembert would still be around for one more year].

(c) A core of Jrue/Lou/Speights/Carney/Smith/Thad would get crushed on the defensive glass. It's already bad now with Iguodala leading the NBA in rebounding [and defensive rebounding] for shooting guards. I'd check back in with the Sixers in 2-3 years when they got to use their cap space, but they'd be even more unwatchable than they are now in the meantime.

There are two other important factors to consider in the strategy of clearing out contracts to create cap space (others have already alluded to both): (1) can you attract anyone to come? (2) will you make the right decisions? Think of the post-Jordan Bulls as a good example. They had tons of high draft picks and tons of cap room, but they've made tons of questionable decisions (Curry, Brand for Chandler, Ben Wallace). And it's netted them exactly one more playoff series win than the Sixers in that time.

Personally, I thought the Sixers were an exciting team to root for the last two years. I wasn't happy with the way either year ended, of course, but I'd much rather watch a team that can compete than a team that's been gutted for cap space and draft position.

Good points. I admit I'm basing my desperation on the premise that all hope is lost for the next 4 years. So I'm probably not being entirely rational and am stuck in a baby/bathwater kind of mode.

Maybe I'll start a Sixers blog... cal it Desperate/Dispirited Fan. Where your team always is ready to give you a beat-down.

No one could argue that being horrible risks continuing to be horrible. Especially with the wrong GM. But on the flip side, I actually have faith in DiLeo getting the right players given a clean slate and some top picks to fill in the roster.

That's exactly why I'd argue for keeping Dala. There is a chance DiLeo finds the Def Anchor of the Future in the next 2 drafts.

Once that piece is aboard, everybody else potentially falls into place.

Jrue/Dre/Thad/Speights(or Brand?)/'Diamond' with Lou/Carney/Smith off the bench, perhaps Brand if you cannot move him.

Other complementary pieces to be named later

I feel like absolutely best case that team's ceiling is 50 wins. And that is best case.

That depends.

Assuming a defensive minded coach that can get them to top 10 level, if not higher, in def rating.

The team would have at least 5 players that can get 20+ on a given night(Dala, Thad, Speights, Lou, Brand)

Thad & Speights avg 20+ ppg, Iguodala around 16-18 ppg. Complemented by Lou's explosive bursts of the bench.

That team would have enough scoring to win with a top-10 level defense.

zig reply to rswknight on Dec 24 at 0:53

that is a hell of a defensive team (assuming speights and that improve), but the lineup is not deep at all. after lou, our bench player is carney or smith? i agree that the ceiling for the team is about 50 wins. i think the future for this team is putting thad on the bench, pairing iggy with a superstar wing, and having a deeping second unit (with young, williams, et al.) coming off the bench.

That's where the cap space and trades using Sam/Green/Kapono's deals comes in

Brian, I think you're attacking a bit of a straw man. The Sixers handed Andre Iguodala an $80 million extension, despite the fact that the most their competitors could offer was a full $22 million dollars lower. AI2 may turn out to be worth every dime, but that doesn't mean the team had to give it to him.

Is he overpaid relative to his value? You obviously don't think so, and you have a strong point.

Did they overpay him? Yes.

Yes, the point about paying more than anyone else could is true, for that summer. The following summer, any team with cap space could have, and probably would have matched or topped the contract Iguodala signed with the Sixers. So the crime here is that Iguodala didn't give a hometown discount and that the team didn't call his bluff. Either way you want to look at it, the fact remains that he is not overpaid right now, and he wasn't overpaid when he signed the contract. He simply wasn't the bargain people would've liked him to be.

I agree. But if the cap does not go up, do you think he will be giving fair value during the last 3 years of his deal? Not saying its enough to say "dump him" just curious of your opinion.

My guess is yes. I don't see anyone on that list above taking a pay cut unless their production falls off to the point where they fall off the list (Ray Allen, Pierce, possibly Duncan). Yes, Iguodala's deal escalates, but so do the contracts each one of these guys is playing under/will sign as a free agent.

Agreed. Not to mention future deals that likely will eclipse that, like Gay's extension, for one

Iguodala at 14M/15M would still only put him at somewhere around #22 highest salary- nowhere near the 20M top salaries. But I still think it is too high by a few million. Not a huge deal in isolation though.

I guess it comes down to me viewing Iguodala as a complementary top 35-40 NBA player as opposed to top 15-18 as you see him. You can argue either way.

Yeah, I think that's the rub. I see Iguodala in that Pippen/Garnett vein. He might be a complementary type of player, but he is still a great cog for a championship team. He just needs premium scorers(Jordan, Pierce/Allen) around him to flourish

The only teams that used serious cap space last summer were the Pistons and the Raps. Neither spent more than $55 over 5 years. The year before Josh Smith (in the exact same position as Iguodala) got 5 years at 58 mil. How much more than that do you believe Iguodala could get? From who? (Seriously. I'm not just trying to be glib)

Look, there are two facts at play here. First: Iguodala is a hell of a player. Second: the 76ers paid him more than any other organization could or would have. I don't think either of those are controversial. Why does pointing out the second in any way discredit the first?

I think the Sixers reasoning was they thought they could make a deep playoff run with Miller/Iguodala/Brand/Young. That made them motivated to get a deal done, even if they had to add an extrta 5-10M on the back end in order to keep Iguodala happy. they figured that would be a moot point as the cap continued to rise.

Exactly. Iguodala had already shown the stubbornness to be willing to play it out once. They didn't want to risk it again, especially with the new star(Brand) just signed under the pretense of playing with the Andres to try and compete

If he was available, I believe OKC or Memphis would've used their ample cap space to make a run at him, instead of trading it for Zach Randolph/sitting on it, respectively. Portland also could've freed enough money to make him a big offer by declining team options on both Blake and Outlaw, and I believe they would have.

I completely get your point, and I'm not arguing that the Sixers didn't pay more than anyone else could have. I'm not even saying they necessarily did the right thing. If they had held their ground, maybe Iguodala signs a similar offer sheet to what Josh Smith signed with Memphis and they simply match it, saving a ton of money. My point is that they would've been extremely lucky if things had worked out that way. As things stand, they payed market value for him when they didn't necessarily have to. But that doesn't change what his fair market value is in the big picture.

It's fair to say the Sixers paid too much for him, it's not fair to say he's overpaid, and you can excuse the Sixers overpaying for him if you think there's a chance he walks this past summer. I believe there's a very good chance that he would've played this hand right into unrestricted free agency and he'd either (a) be playing somewhere else right now or (b) the Sixers would've wound up paying more when other teams could legitimately drive the price up. You can easily argue the point the other way, though.

Wanted to give credit to people tonight for being able to disagree without being disagreeable.

This blog is really great when people are vigorously defending their opinions without being assholes. That was the case tonight. Hope it continues.

Completely agree.

Here's a devil's advocate question for you. Say they absolutely cannot move Brand's contract under any circumstances. Would you entertain offers for Iguodala, not from a "have to move him" stance, but from a "moving him could set us up" perspective.

Something like this:

Sixers give Andre Iguodala and Willie Green. Sixers get Andrei Kirilenko and the NY Knicks #1 pick in this season's draft?

If you make a deal like that, you've got in all likelihood two top-ten picks this summer, and Dalembert ($12M+), Kirilenko ($17.8M) and Kapono ($6.6M) as sizable expiring contracts. That's a situation very similar to where the Celts were the season they landed Garnett and Allen, if you can't find a killer trade like that, you have the possibility of adding two very big pieces to the young core. I'd be much more inclined to make that kind of deal than simply using Iguodala as sweetener in a deal to unload Brand with nothing more than expiring contracts and cap space in return.

Now I have myself confused. Because I'd hate that deal. From a pure value perspective I seriously doubt that the top 10 pick you get for Iguodala will amount to a player as good (I believe its top 3 protected.)

But on the flip side, I'd consider this if it was part of a 3 way deal that also unloaded Brand for expiring.

So I guess I'm not making much sense. I don't want value from an individual perspective. I more want an organizational purge of all upper management except Dilieo and all Sixer contracts over 6M.

The Knicks' pick is 100% unprotected, if that changes your mind at all. Their recent winning ways are making the pick less valuable, though (7-3 in their last 10).

If they let all the contracts expire, in the Summer of 2011 they'd have a core of

High lottery pick from 2010 #1
High lottery pick from 2010 #2
Lottery pick from 2011

You could just let Jason Smith walk, rather than paying him his qualifying offer. That would give you about $37M in contracts depending on how high the picks are. Meaning, enough cap space to sign a max contract FA, depending on where the cap is.

Some of that cap space would be eaten up by Thad's cap hold, though, so a max contract would depend on where the cap is set at (all of this is contingent on the reworked CBA as well).

I'd certainly consider it.

Young has an 8M cap hold. But more importantly, having cap flexibility and all of that young talent can make you a real player in the trade market. Who knows, maybe Speights could be our Al Jefferson (becomes Bosh?) and one of those picks is flipped for our Ray Allen (lets say Joe Johnson.)

johnroszr reply to Brian on Dec 24 at 0:34

I don't think Utah would make that deal though. They can't wait to get out of Boozers contract, and they're just trying to shed salary at this point(Maynor trade helped them shed salary, correct?) I don't see them being too eager to jump into 4 more years of Iguodala's deal

They're getting out of Boozer's contract no matter what. Their main concern was getting under the lux tax this season, this deal wouldn't add any money to their cap situation this season or next, and they'd swap Kirilenko, who's in and out of Sloan's doghouse on a daily basis, and really hasn't lived up to potential for an awesome wing which they've really lacked forever.

If there was a concern on Utah's end, it would be pairing Brewer and Iguodala at the 2/3. Neither can really shoot the three.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Dec 24 at 1:06

Well in that case, Sixers would have to consider it. It's not a matter of the Sixers possibly screwing it up for me(I trust Dileo enough that he would make the right picks), but I haven't really gotten an overall gauge on the draft talent yet, all the things I've heard up to this point are that it is a weak draft, then again they say that every year...

Using Okl. City as a model is tough because they got their star [Durant] and their 2nd banana [Green] in one draft, a rarety. We would have to get REAL lucky and without the star first, it is tough to build, isn!t it. I agree with Brian about Portland, we would probably get the wrong guy.

I think there's two different statements here, both of which can be interpreted as being overpaid.

- Is Iguodala worth (in relation to the rest of the league) the amount he is being paid.
- Was the Iguodala contract a good deal at the time.

The answer to the first I think is that it is probably around what he is worth, league wide. If he's overpaid, it's slightly.

I do think Win Shares isn't an exact representation, and there are certainly instances of "good player, bad team" being overrated by Win Shares. You could look back when Steve Francis was posting 12 win share seasons, or when Marbury was consistently in the 9-11 win shares range, or when Shareef Abdur-Rahim was in the 9-10 win share range for about 5 straight years.

Furthermore, I don't think just because he's 20th in win shares and 18th in salary means he's not overpaid. I think, as a league standard, second tier stars tend to be overpaid, both because they show just enough that you think (hope?) they'll develop into the next tier, and also because they're good enough that they're extremely difficult to replace. Both of these are main causes GM's tend to overpay a player. If you look at the top of the league in Win Shares, the league leader last year was at 20, or 200% of Iguodala. Yet he's only making 127% of Iguodala's salary. I think a ratio of change in win shares respective to change in salary might paint a more accurate picture.

As for the second question, I do believe they overpaid. There wasn't anyone in the league who would have given Iguodala the contract they did (nobody in the league who COULD have offered Igudoala the contract they did, when you take into consideration more years and higher escalation). The fact that the Sixers likely would have matched would have deterred most teams. Iguodala's only real leverage was taking the qualifying offer, and I find it very unlikely he would have gone through and risked that. And if he did? You still enter next offseason with the chance to offer the highest starting salary, the most years, and the biggest raises. The Hawks took that approach, and they have Josh Smith on a smaller salary, and Smith is posting a 23.2 PER (vs Iguodala's 18) and a 3.5 Win Share (vs Iguodala's 2.1) so far this season.

It's not one of the most egregious overpaying we've seen in recent time, but I do think it's up for debate.

I get the Abdur-Rahim example, because he was playing for horrible teams. But Francis took Houston to the playoffs both of those seasons and I think Marbury took Phoenix to the playoffs at least one of those seasons. We aren't talking about a pitiful team in the Sixers, they were .500 last year, just missed the year before. This season is really their only clunker in the past four and his WS are actually off the pace he set in the previous three seasons.

And if you want to use a strict $/WS scale, Iguodaa is actually 8th (this isn't a great measurement because we're using this year's salary vs. total win shares for the past four seasons, but anyway, here's the list)

1 Chris Paul $278,773/WS
2 LeBron James $283,811
3 Jason Terry $312,931
4 Chauncey Billups $315,927
5 Dwight Howard $371,701
6 Manu Ginobili $376,426
7 Steve Nash $381,541
8 Andre Iguodala $426,573
9 Dirk Nowitzki $437,958
10 Brandon Roy $443,295
11 Deron Williams $452,191
12 Chris Bosh $465,484
13 Amare Stoudemire $477,502
14 Kevin Garnett $478,631
15 Pau Gasol $504,663
16 Kobe Bryant $518,792
17 Dwyane Wade $525,997
18 Tim Duncan $580,713
19 Paul Pierce $612,870
20 Ray Allen $621,750
21 Rashard Lewis $625,375

Wow! What a discussion! I wish we had management that cared as much as ya'll do about this team. I cannot help but think that if management cared, Jordan would have been fired by now.

Personally, I think all we need right now is a new coach. If we had an compentent coach, our team maybe fine.

A group of us want to go to Germany in 2012, I really enjoy reading about it, I am seeking more information about the people and places in Germany

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