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Starters Set the Tone

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deepsixersuede on Jan 24 at 7:18
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Brian, one bad thing about this starting 5 is Iggy is forced to settle for jumpers to give Elton room to operate; if the "start A.I." promise wasn!t in effect think what Kapono or Carney could do in that unit.It is nice that having two guys score 20 pts. allowed Iggy to concentrate on other things.

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deepsixersuede on Jan 24 at 8:13
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Brian, I really don!t want to give Iggy up in a deal but what if a smaller salary dump was done, for example; Dallas could use some backcourt scoring and Kidd has become more of a spot up shooter so [ L.Will. for (2.9 trade ex.}, R.Beaubois, and Q.Ross (1 mill. exp.)]. Would that get us under the luxury tax next year and would Dallas do it?

You are dreaming if you think the Mavs are giving up Beaubois for Lou Will...

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The Greek reply to Vaughn on Jan 24 at 10:32
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As much as I don't like Lou Williams, Cuban would deal Beaubois for him is a second.

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JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Jan 24 at 11:54
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One can run the point one can't and marc cuban isn't billy king

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The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Jan 24 at 18:33
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My bad I didn't know that you scouted this guy in France. Tell us more about him then John

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sehbh reply to The Greek on Jan 24 at 12:47
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The already have jason terry they dont want/need williams

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deepsixersuede reply to sehbh on Jan 24 at 12:56
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Because of Howard!s disappointing play Terry has been starting and they have no 2 guard off the bench, and they are in a win now situation. John, did you see the real g.m. article on the cap possibly not going down as much as was expected ?

Two quotes from EJ. I guess he does not see a team wherte youth is the future... and its almost a swipe at Iguodala:

"After the game, Jordan also raved about Allen Iverson, saying he's the heart and soul and the spirit of this team."

and:

"[Brand]’s the guy that Ed Stefanski thought he would be – knew he would be."

The second quote is just hyperbole, the first quote is somewhat disturbing. This is not 2003.

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deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Jan 24 at 11:18
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A sure shot at Iggy, he has a weird way of motivating people. Did you read the scouts take on Thad?

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Jeff reply to tk76 on Jan 24 at 20:03
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Interesting quote. It's funny, during the preseason, when Iverson was still a free agent, Jordan was asked if the team would consider giving him a contract and I believe Jordan immediately replied, "no."

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Muddy Speightacular on Jan 24 at 11:22
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Charity, it is said, begins at home. The tone of this post reminds me of those proverbial ass parents who look at the overall performance of their kid at some game and normalize the good stuff (that is, it doesn't deserve props because good play should be the norm) while harping on the mistakes. Overall this was a damned fine game. It's exceedingly rare that a team is going to get near perfect performances from everybody, including the coach. There'll always be something to criticize. That's the easy, takes-no-talent part.

(long aside: if you spend some time at some other team blogs, you'll very quickly learn that every single coach in the NBA gets grief from their fans--even, amazingly, the ones with long winning track records. fans always feel like they know more than the coaches do, always have the inside scoop on the dynamics between players and upper management. and sometimes they do, which only gives them reinforcement to believe that they ALWAYS know the score, always know the right moves. the truth is that every coach makes mistakes each and every game. just like players will occasionally miss a shot, coaches will seem to us sometimes slow to call a time out, or change the roster or call the right play out of a time out. or whatever. the other truth is that some coaches really are better than others (they can't all be the same), some coaches make more good calls and/or fewer mistakes than others. but are coaches, on balance, really more critical in the outcomes than the players? are the players as predictable as chess pieces and it's only a matter of moving the right pieces at the right time? statistics, which your gang of and on revere, bear out that the coaches do not, on balance, affect games more than player play.)

Was Jrue having such an awesome game that he deserved a lot more run despite taking 12 stiches to the face, nevermind in a game that they were largely in control of most of the way? Dude had 3 fouls in less than 11 minutes. He wasn't having a great time of it out there. You have at least one other player who's still stinging over a demotion (sour lou), so if he can't get burn in a situation like this, wtf? how many issues/angle is a fan capable of seeing anyway? Rotation by stats? That's it? You're in for a world of pain when you have a coach who (and this is hardly unique to him) coaches a lot by feel. But maybe that's just the fix a nest of negaholics really needs.

Then on the other hand Speights is playing well enough on both ends, but jordan still gets lambasted for giving him playing time over dalembert (who, while clearly dominant defensively, was a dud on the other), again in a game that was going pretty well for the good guys. So on one end jordan gets pilloried for not giving more burn to a kid not having a particularly good game ("he needs time to develop!"), and whipped again for giving another kid burn when he's doing alright (the develop-the-youth argument suddenly goes poof!). When a specific narrative has been established, it's IMPOSSIBLE for the designated bad guy to win, no matter what he does. It's a no-win situation, which is probably why there isn't a pro team coach on the planet who pays any attention to blogs. GMs, however, may be made of weaker sauce.

Give credit where credit's due. These players are of late playing pretty well under jordan. As is by now routine for the Sixers, they're starting to put a few things together after the halfway mark. Let's just keep hoping for more of the same, more consistent high-level play, no matter who's out on the court.

I don't understand all the griping about Jordan myself because, after all, all he's done, if you take the most negative view, is keep us from the eighth seed and propel us to the top of the draft, but come on. He is a terrible coach. We didn't suddenly become a terrible defensive team by accident. And it's the opinion of most people who know anything about coaching offense that Princeton never made a whole lot of sense given our personnel. And you can't deny that his rotations are absurd. Unless you too like Willie Green's game and don't think that Brand is one of our five (really, probably three) best players.

You make a number of astute observations. There are buckets of unremmiting bias on this blog that are hardly disguised by the presence of rotation statistics.

As for the coach, well, he was either a bit of a slow learner or maybe more fairly a compulsive experimenter. But, he seems to have arrived at a general rotation that looks good for now (I understand the gripes about Kapono getting time but I also can see reasons why management would like to give him additional chances).

People should remember that Cheeks also had difficulty assembling the parts of this team and he had the advantage of having an established point guard like Andre Miller. One can hardly fault Jordan for his initial reluctance to start a rookie point guard who lacked confidence and experience on the offensive end. Yes, I know, he likes to play defense and is pretty good at it for his young age but he hasn't established a T.R. Dunn or Michael Cooper reputation just yet.

Now for some final heresy against this blog's dogma. I think the acquisition of AI has been great for this team and I hope management works out a deal to retain him next year. And, the Sixers have finally found the right role for Willie Green and he has responded with perhaps his best all around year. There are many veterans around the league making similar or far greater compensation who are contributing much less to their teams.

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JohnEMagee reply to paul on Jan 24 at 15:57
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You make a number of astute observations. There are buckets of unremmiting bias on this blog that are hardly disguised by the presence of rotation statistics.

Everyone in the universe has biases, people accusing of bias are awesome cause they ignore their own biases...it's fascinating.

No one forces anyone to read what is written here, so when people whine about it, I marvel.

Much like I marvel at those who have a lot to say only when the sixers win a couple games but when the sixers are playing poorly they are quieter than a deaf corpse

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Jeff reply to JohnEMagee on Jan 24 at 20:01
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Good point. I also noticed a few of the dead have woken up recently.

Perhaps those who are opposed to the opinions on this blog could make a better case for their points if they had their own blog, took the time to do their own research, and didn't write with a pompous, condescending tone.

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JohnEMagee reply to Jeff on Jan 24 at 20:02
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I don't write like that purposely - just my nature

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Jeff reply to JohnEMagee on Jan 24 at 20:07
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That wasn't directed toward you. I was agreeing with your statements while directed the other comments toward the posts that you replied to.

In order to have a bias, it has to be irrational. If you have a rational predisposition to something, I don't consider that a bias. Having a natural predisposition to players who play defense isn't a bias, it's an opinion.

I think the term bias gets thrown around a little too much.

Would Cleveland want Elton Brand?
EB for Ilgauskas and Green, and the sixers would give Ilgauskas a buy out so that he can return to the Cavs.

C: Shaq
PF: Brand
SF: James
SG: Parker
PG: Williams

Bench

Ilgauskas
Hickson
Verajoao
Moon
Gibson
West

If the

depressedfan landscape:

-If you think Iggy should be traded, you're a moron like Jordan
-If you can find 90% negatives and the 10% positive is Jrue "gettin" minutes
-If you believe statistics quantify every single thing with the team, players or coach
-If you think +/- is the absolute gospel
-If you think the players are the next coming (in 2-3 years) and have dearths of "talent"
-If you think the players are as much to blame for the season and not the coach, your a basketball novice
-If you are a free thinker and anecdotalist and don't follow the many beat-the-dead-horse recitals, your a dolt

GO SIXERS!

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Real Muddy reply to Manute on Jan 24 at 13:35
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Alllmost bang on.

"-If you think +/- is the absolute gospel"

you forgot to add: but only when your favourite guy happens to have a good +/- that game, or if your hated guy has a bad +/- that game. otherwise, silence.

can't say our host doesn't know his audience. what'll really bake your noodle is: did he create the audience? meh, it's a blog, one that's a cut above because it doesn't pretend to lack bias.

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eddies' heady's reply to Real Muddy on Jan 24 at 16:31
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"what'll really bake your noodle is: did he create the audience?"

lol...I don't think anyone is that 'slow' around here, at least I hope not...

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jkay reply to Manute on Jan 24 at 13:39
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I have been around here frequently enough to know that a lot of people carry their biases over their favorite players or their view of the coach and oragnization. rightfully so, everyone has got 'em. i dont see anyone here being derisive or insulting. So dude - IF YOU GOT SOMETHING TO SAY, JUST SAY IT! NO NEED TO BE PASSIVE AGRESSIVE.

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Duracorr reply to Manute on Jan 24 at 13:59
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While I won't defend all of the "positions" taken here on this blog you have to admit
1. Any coach who
Would start AI3 next to LW
Would leave Jason Kapono or Allen Iverson in the game for for the final defensive possession of the game
Would allow the team to take this many 18-22 foot jump shots early in the clock
Would put combinations on the court that might be able to score, but are too small at three positions to rebound or defend
Then the coach deserves serious criticism.

2. You can't blame the players when the coach has not put them into a position to succeed.

3. Of course statistics can be misleading, but over the long haul, statistics do tell the tale. However, you also have to take into account common sense.

4. Some of us do advocate more minutes for Jrue and not for Speights because Jrue plays NBA level on-the-ball defense - an obvious team need. MS can score well and has an NBA offensive game, but either has not been taught how to defend or does not have the desire to defend. Defense has been the team need.

At the beginning of the year many of us pictured a team playing lock-down defense because of the level of athleticism of the players while they learned the Princeton offense to make up for their being "offensively challenged" when not running. A good coach bends his style to fit the players he's got. EJ only began doing that after the season was 40% over.

By the way, you should look up the meaning of dearth.

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Manute reply to Duracorr on Jan 24 at 18:00
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yikes--should have read "yet" instead of "and"

the meaning of dearth is proper here.

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Jeff reply to Manute on Jan 24 at 20:10
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You forgot to add - if you know the difference between, "your" and "you're."

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JohnEMagee on Jan 24 at 13:50
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I was banned long ago from real gm forums - can't even read them - wso i don't go there much - i think you'd need access to the BRI numbers to make that calculation - do they have it?

The underrated part about sending Thad and Lou to the bench is that the players they're defending aren't as capable offensively, so the deficiencies of Thad/Lou on defense aren't as devastating. Or, if they are playing against starters at the end of a long run, they're fresh and those starters are tired. The high-octane, low-defense lineup (Thad/Lou/Speights/Green) makes sense as a second unit, though I'm hoping it's Carney and not Kapono that gets minutes with them the next time.

The only aspect I didn't like about last night's game was that, because of the focus on Brand, Iguodala was relegated to standing on the perimeter and shooting jumpers when the ball came to him. I don't know how much of it was not getting plays called for him and how much was his own lack of aggressiveness, but to have him stand on the perimeter like it's 05-06 again is a waste of an important asset (good things happen when he penetrates). It's a shame, too, because Iguodala has gotten progressively better with his passing this year, to the point that he's almost 3-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio this month. (By the way, pretty good job by the team as a whole last night, 12 steals and 10 turnovers.)

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deepsixersuede reply to Statman on Jan 24 at 15:12
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Iggy seemed to play Thad!s old role while A.I. probed the defense off the dribble, like Iggy would do. A.I. being replaced by Carney [in Thad!s old role] would probably benefit Jrue and Iggy [ more control ?].John, it said that attendence is not as bad as expected and the cap may stay close to what it is.Guys, could E.S. be telling our coach to not play Kapono so he opts out next year?

Wouldn't Kapono be more likely to opt out if he thought he could cash in on a big log term deal? If their is no market for him then he likely will make more next year then he will make total for his next contract. Why opt out of 6M to take a 2M contract elsewhere?

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Jeff reply to tk76 on Jan 24 at 20:22
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I think even if Kapono got normal playing time, it would be like shooting himself in the foot. He's known as a great three point shooter, yet time and time again he doesn't set himself up to get those shots. Sometimes, just from observation, he even hovers around the paint. He also passes up shots when he doesn't have a wide open look. With his skill set, this these actions don't look good on scouting reports.
I doubt he would get anywhere near 6 million a year once his current contract runs out.

Its great that everybody has different opinions. It keeps things interesting, and its good to hear other peoples perspectives. No reason to be a dick about it.

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deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Jan 24 at 20:04
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Tk, if he loves to play maybe he thinks about it, but your right, the money is awfull good.

A quick note to the comments criticizing me and the way I write this blog. If you don't like it, feel free to leave and never come back. If you disagree with my opinions, that's fine, present your argument in a somewhat intelligent manner, and we'll have a back-and-forth about it.

To clear things up for everyone out there, Manute is actually Eddies' Heady's, I guess he's trying to bolster the numbers for his argument. He's also left comments as Kevin and Frank recently.

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Jeff reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 20:27
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All I have to say is, I'm not shocked that people really are that pathetic.

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Jesse reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 22:23
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I think Real Muddy and Muddy Speightacular or whatever is Eddy's too. He has a very unique writing style that I guess he doesn't realize. Maybe he's using different names to try to not get banned.

R&S is a different guy. He also keeps changing his name.

And since I've been accused of using +/- as gospel, I decided to do a search through the archives from this season. I've mentioned +/-, in any form, in exactly 7 posts since the season began. 7 out of 210 total posts in that time is 3%.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Jan 24 at 20:40
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That's the way it goes though :)

Latch on to something - relevant or not - to show bias :)

There's some interesting '+/-' work out there, with adjusted average +/- etc...some interesting defensive analysis work out there like this that I can't understand myself - but it has Andre Iguodala in the top 30 - so it must be bad

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Jeff reply to JohnEMagee on Jan 24 at 20:50
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I laughed when I looked at the bottom five on the list...

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Tray reply to JohnEMagee on Jan 24 at 22:47
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I don't know anyone who's ever said that Iguodala wasn't a good defender. #29 is probably too low.

Maybe we should have an Andre Iguodala debate above the 'I

The Depressed Fan landscape post was incorrect and a little insulting as well. As an AI9 defender, Iguodala for a simple salary dump is what I don't think we should do. If we could get Brand off the books as well, then we can think about it.

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Statman on Jan 25 at 0:43
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In order to have a bias, it has to be irrational. If you have a rational predisposition to something, I don't consider that a bias. Having a natural predisposition to players who play defense isn't a bias, it's an opinion.

I think the term bias gets thrown around a little too much.

While I have the same predisposition toward players who play defense, I think someone who doesn't might fairly ask, "Who gets to define what is rational and/or natural?" Unfortunately, most people define grade rationality according to "agreement with their own opinions." The most one can do in many sports arguments is to cite numbers in support of one's position, and Brian does it as well as any other blogger I've ever read.

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jkay reply to Statman on Jan 25 at 1:13
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with most of the community here it is a tendency to look at a situation from a perspective which favors a certain type of player. with fans generally, we tend to like certain players more than others, not necessarily because of a consistency that we notice in them (say defense). its not linear at all. hence the term bias. perhaps some other better fitted synonym or an ameliorated form should have been used.
not calling attention to Brian, just talking generally. though it was just obvious from the subject who was being addressed.

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eddies' heady's on Jan 25 at 8:20
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Since this post was before the commenting policy post, I figured it was best to put it here.

The infamous Manute post was not a personal slanted post and it appears it was misconstrued as such. Nowhere did it say Brian. It contained the words depressedfan landscape - with landscape being the scenery and scenery being the community.

Being it was taken personal as such, it appears to be a one way street around here when it comes to humor. There doesn't seem to be a problem being critically humorous of say the coach's appearance or intellect or Tyrone Hill's face, but when a veiled attempt at Foxworthy-type humor is presented the flood gates open. The comment was written with a grin and carried no specific indictments of any one person, just indictment of the often fall-in-with-the-company-lines tone. With often being emphasized, not always.

The one way street also seems to apply to the gavel being sounded only on the heady's. Must I list the continuous ad hominem attacks, the "Eddie Jordan's cock and your mouth" reference within a game thread, the "shut the fuck up already" within a game thread, the "talking out of your ass" references, the comparison of the heady's to a "delusional 60-something mother". And that's just a few.

So out the pseudonymity of the heady's, but protect the pseudonymity of the select few? That seems to fall in line with the one way street theory too. But really, nothing personal at all, I'm used to it by now. It just comes with the territory of having a place to talk intelligently about my impassioned fanaticism of the Sixers. I see past all that hoo-doing and weed through it, all for the opportunity to share passioned discussions with other diehard fanatics, however isolated my views and opinions may be.

The heady's has never had a personal-attack method with his comments unless personally attacked first. The host has stated that he is challenged and thought-provoked by our comments and opinions, and that is as far as my commenting history can be taken - challenging. (minus the post today) Whether it was construed as personal or not, today or previously, that was never the intent and never will be.

The last thing I would want to do is belittle or demean fellow Sixer fans. Hell, I'm not the type to even take that approach with Celtics fans. It has ended up being a poor attempt at humor, even though it appeared humor had no limits or boundaries in these parts. I guess I've learned, as well as others, that it does - so maybe that will turn out to be a lesson for all.


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