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Finding Balance

Although they are both good player, I don't feel like Igudoala and Brand fit well together on the floor. probably for similar reasons that Miller/Brand did not work well.

EB works best with a guys who get him the ball quickly with pick and rolls or post up. Jrue works well with Brand. And the gold standard is Sam Caseel, who could spot up and draw his man from doubling down.

Iguodala works best with an athletic big like Sam or Speights. Someone who can flash to the rim. He gets bigs good interior looks, but that is not Brand's bread and butter.

I'm sure the right coach or a better PG could maximizer Brand and Iguodala on the floor together. I'm not saying they are completely incompatible. i just don't think they are a natural fit.

Great typo. We need Jrue to be "the maximizer."

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Statman reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 14:27
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Although they are both good players, I don't feel like Iguodala and Brand fit well together on the floor. probably for similar reasons that Miller/Brand did not work well.

Iguodala works best with an athletic big like Sam or Speights. Someone who can flash to the rim. He gets bigs good interior looks, but that is not Brand's bread and butter.

Very perceptive, tk76, and one could argue that Iguodala has never flourished with Brand in the starting lineup (Iguodala had the worst month of his career, for example, in November 2008). Post isolations require that everyone else move to the weak side and, for the most part, stay there. If a weak-side player cuts to the basket, the post player has to find him immediately (which Brand is very poor at doing), else the second defender can easily double team the post player. Iguodala has never been good at playing off-the-ball in the halfcourt (by comparison, Thad is much better [and may be the best on the team] at getting open off others' penetrations). Iguodala needs the ball to be effective, and as I mentioned the other day, there are too few basketballs to go around among the three of them.

On the other hand, I do think Brand could be moderately successful if Iguodala were the focal point of the halfcourt offense, but Brand would generally be receiving the ball off Iguodala penetrations further from the basket than he gets it now (this would allow open jumpers or dives to the hoop, but not post isolations). If Brand were successful 70% of the time in post isolations, the question would be moot. But I think the percentage is more like 50-55%, so it's a legitimate question.

One thing I wish they had kept from the Princeton Offense is the off-the-ball movement. It wasn't always effective movement, but at least they weren't standing around watching.

p.s. Minor note: Iguodala's line from the NJ game was 14 points on 12 shots, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 steals, one turnover. He also made 2 of the team's 3 baskets in the 4th quarter, including the most important one with 1:31 left. So while his game may have been subpar, it was not "as subpar" as the previous few.

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The Greek on Feb 2 at 13:49
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Not to get off the topic bu Xavier Henry's stock is falling fast and furiously.

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The Greek on Feb 2 at 13:50
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Getting a sweet shooting 2 guard to play next to Jrue would be a hell of an idea.

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JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Feb 2 at 13:55
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Or getting Evan Turner and keeping Iguodala would work too

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The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 14:00
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Magee have you seen Turner play yet? Having him and Iggy on the court at the same time would be a disaster, they both need the rock in there hands to be effective. Do you disagree?

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JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Feb 2 at 14:07
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Yes I disagree

Iguodala doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, Fans WANT him to have the ball in his hands because of his salary - he's better when he's not a primary option in general in my opinion...Turner takes the pressure off Iguodala to score.

I've only seen snippets of turner because i'm on the west coast and Ohio State hasn't been on a lot when i've been home but I'm impressed with what I've seen.

I prefer him right now to Xavier Henry...big 10 is a more physical conference usually than the big 12 and as they get deeper into conference play, turner is more impressive and Henry is less.

There's a long way to the draft, and right now the sixers are a top 4 pick...I trust Tony Dileo to make the best pick, but I don't think turner an diguodala 'clash' and I think your assessment of Iguodala needing the ball is way off base

I agree that Turner dominates the ball (because right now he plays PG.) But Iguodala fitting with Turner vs Henry almost does not matter. You cannot select for need when the team is so far from contending.

From what I've seen Henry has potential, but could be anything from a role player to a good starter.

Turner is older and more of a finished product. But he looks like he would be a very good NBA starter right now, and could be a perennial all star. He looks like Brandon Roy with a better midrange and inside game but a worse jumper. I think Turner has a good chance of being a better pro than Roy or Iguodala.

So I do not think Henry is in Turner's league. Its not like comparing Thad to Thorton.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 14:23
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Well I was just trying to dispute that Turner/Iguodala don't work together more than anything else :)

Besides, if they draft henry, his nickname becomes x-man - and he died in like issue 50

I haven't seen him play, a couple of things concern me though. 28% from college three. Would we just be collecting perimeter players who can't shoot? The turnovers also seem high to me, but it's understandable if he's playing out of position at the point.

I saw him last Sunday. He is a man amongst boys out there. He did not look out of position at PG, just tall. He can get anywhere on the floor with his handle. He shoots overall at an incredibly high percentage (for example other than missing two open 3's he hit his first 9 shots last Sunday.) He leads the Big ten in rebounds and assists, scores 18+/game shooting 55% mostly on short and intermediate jumpers.

Look at his detailed stats:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Evan-Turner-1115/stats/

IMO his long range jumper has decent form, but he floats. This is why he is a great shooter only out to about 17 feet. But I'd expect his range should continue to improve.

Turner is projected as the #2 pick by draft express. The Sixers are unlikely to get a shot at drafting him. But they would be crazy to pass on him unless they can get Wall. In fact, Turner looks more NBA ready right now, but Wall has All-NBA upside.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 14:38
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Keep in mind what i'm going to now call 'dajuan blair' fear - turners fractured back - or whatever - might scare off a few teams (DX i don't think takes that into account) - so turner slipping a few spots wouldn't be surprising. I think he's gettable.

PS - rumor on the interwebs today published in a newspaper - if the nets do not get the #1 - they'll look to trade it

That would come back to haunt them.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 14:51
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I thinnk it would be pretty stupid too - assuming worst case - #4 - you'd still get some talent

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 14:38
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That's my problem with Turner, is his turnovers. He remimds me too much of Iguodala with the propensity with turnovers and the lack of a consistent jumper. He would just be an almost clone of Iguodala, or a rich man's Thad with some defense. Kind of redundant on the guys who can't shoot a lick though. We have a stable of those already.

Outside of a big player with the ability to rebound, defend, and pass, he's really not anything like Iguodala. Their offensive games are fairly different, IMO.

I don't consider either turnovers or shooting a problem with Turner. His midrange game is fairly advanced, as is his pull-up game. Turnovers I think are largely a product of his situation.

I don't think you pass on Evan Turner because of Andre Iguodala.

I'm not saying you don't take him because you have Iguodala, I'm just wondering if we're going to continue stockpiling perimeter players who can't stretch the floor. Does he project to be at least a decent three-point shooter in the NBA?

He projects to score a lot, and efficiently. He also projects to create a lot of open (three point) shots for teammates.

That does not answer your question, but I don't think people would want him "settling" for three's with his great handle, vision and midrange and in game.

Derek is a much better judge, but Turner's mechanics are not broken (beyond his drifting the release and arc are fine.) He will improve his range with time. But he is not a bad jump shooter right now.

BTW, combine Turner's smoothness and in between game with Iguodala's power and explosiveness and you would have Clyde Drexler in his prime- with a better tear drop but worse range.

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Feb 2 at 14:59
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If they both can defend, rebound, and pass and both have average midrange and pull-up games but can't really shoot the deep perimeter shot with any consistency isn't that an 'almost clone' which is how I referred them?

I understand that Turner's turnovers are spiked by how Matta uses him. IMO, I just see him as a guy that needs the ball in his hands and won't be as successful playing off the ball on the next level. Because if he is used with the ball in his hands his turnovers are likely to be the same or go up in the NBA. Which is similar to Iguodala too.

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 15:05
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Turner is better at the basket and at creating his own shot already than igudoala is now?

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eddies' heady's reply to JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 15:12
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Won't say he's better at the basket, but at creating his own shot yes. But I'm taking into account he's doing it against college players too. He won't get those same creations on the next level.

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 15:15
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Andre was never real goo around the basket (i'm not talking open dunks, i''m talking about in crowds) as far as I can remember...it's not a skill he has (or has developed that well) - I believe Turner is naturally better at it and would evolve as such.

Andre was a horrible finisher in college. Granted, Iguodala only played his sophomore season, but Turner last year displayed much better ability to finish at the rim (and get to the rim, for that matter) than Iguodala did at that stage of their careers.

"If they both can defend, rebound, and pass and both have average midrange and pull-up games but can't really shoot the deep perimeter shot with any consistency isn't that an 'almost clone' which is how I referred them?"

Iguodala's a better defender.

Turner's a better drive and kick player.

Turner's got a much better first step, much better handles, better midrange game, better pull-up game, better finisher.

Iguodala's better in transition, both running and finishing.

I really don't think they're all that similar, particularly offensively. They're similar in that they're well-rounded, and that neither are drop dead spot-up shooters, but outside of that, I don't find their games all that similar.

I do agree that Turner needs the ball in his hands, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't view Igudoala as a ball-dominant half-court player, and trying to force him into that role because of his salary I think would be a mistake.

If Turner's the best player on the board when I'm up to pick, I take him and be thankful that we got that much talent in the draft.

I disagree, Iguodala has developed into a rather ball dominant player. Not that he shoots so much, but he does need the ball in his hands a lot to be productive. That is the case with most non-shooters.

I should have clarified that i meant going forward.

that being said, I do agree that they (Iguodala and Turner) don't complement each other in the "they bring out each others best attributes" way, I just don't think they're clones, either.

This is one of the questions I've been asking myself quite a bit over the past month, as it became clear to me that Turner was the second best prospect in the draft.

Would I like more shooting between the 2 (and, when taken into account, Jrue)? Yes. After looking at Turner's shot, I do see solid mechanics as tk has pointed out, and I do see effectiveness from 17' in, so that gives me hope going forward in the future. I do believe court spacing would be a problem initially, but I have (somewhat guarded) confidence in continued improvement from Jrue and Turner that it wouldn't be a problem.

Now, if floor spacing ISN'T a problem, are you going to maximize Iguodala's half-court game with Turner there? Probably not. But I don't want to build my team around Iguodala being the best half-court offensive player, and I think Turner is the kind of player you can potentially build around. Is limiting Iguodala to being a great defender, good passer, great transition player and opportunistic half-court scorer a terrible thing? If the floor spacing issue resolves itself, I don't think so.

Have you seen Turner play? He is a silky smooth player and very crafty.

Having similar statistics does not make you a clone. Roy has similar rebounds and assists as Iguodala and they have very different styles (beyond just jump shooting.) In fact Turner's style is closer to Roy, but a better in between game than Roy or iguodala. he is just craftier and less reliant on his athleticism than either player.

This projects really well in the NBA, where he can use his length, handle and craftiness and not be to dependent on athleticism.

Here are Derek's recent tweets:

@derekbodner Iguodala isn't great 1 on 1, so having a shot-creator like Evan Turner next to him works.Takes BH pressure off Lou Williams too

2010-01-23 17:40:34
Evan Turner can play w/anyone NP RT @derekbodner: fit w/Iguodala? Doesn't seem like they complement each other, but hard not going BPA there

2010-01-23 17:37:02
Most impressive thing about Evan Turner isn't how incredibly skilled & creative he is, but rather how hard he competes on every possession

2010-01-23 17:00:05
Evan Turner is so good its a joke. Seriously need to start thinking about bumping him up to #2 on our mock. Glad we were on him so early

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 15:35
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I've seen him play for a couple years now and trust me, my observations aren't based on statictics.

I just see a near-Iguodala that struggles with a deep perimeter shot. But my main hang-up with him is I feel he is the type of player that has to have the ball in hands to be successful and I'm not sure he will excel at that (or the team he is on will). Which bring into question his capabilities to play off the ball when getting to the league.

I love comments like that. Trust me when I say I have seen quite an abundance of Turner as well.

You've both seen him play more than I have.

I guess I mostly agree with Eddie's clarified statement of " just see a near-Iguodala that struggles with a deep perimeter shot. But my main hang-up with him is I feel he is the type of player that has to have the ball in hands to be successful "

But that is a far cry from being a clone.

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 16:01
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Hey, I said an almost clone.:) Don't know if almost is a far cry though. Could be I guess.

Yes. falls somewhere between almost----and far cry :)

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Feb 2 at 15:56
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Don't know what you love about it? You get paid for it and I don't?

Look, I'm not saying the kid won't be a good or special player. As usual, I'm just hung up on 'fit' which you went into good detail on above. If our personnel stays the same (who knows?), I just don't know if he will work out here being what I call an 'almost-clone' or noncomplementary player to Iguodala.

Most say BPA, but at some point when building a team that is either capped or near-capped out, it wouldn't be a bad idea to take the BPA at the most glaring position of need or the BPA that will mesh or fit with currnet personnel, to me.

First of all, I don't do this as a job. It's just a time consuming hobby. My payment's in synergy sports tech and getting access to some things/events I didn't have access to before (which I'm eternally grateful of).

What I love is how it seems you can't just disagree, that it has to be a not-so-thinly veiled shot. I'm not sure if it's just directed at me or if it's your MO. I guess whatever makes you happy.

Finally, I don't even necessarily disagree with (one of your points) that Turner and Igudoala would be perfect complements. I just disagree that they're clones, and whether Turner's talent level is good enough that you take him regardless.

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Feb 2 at 16:31
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Heh,.. the man said having similar statistics does not make you a clone. I then respond, trust me...my observations are not based on statistics. Really don't see how that is 'I just can't disagree'.

I'm defending my opinion of said player, you're defending your opinion of said player - how do you come to 'can't disagree' from that? There's no right or wrong here - just opinion.

If you are going to accuse me of a 'not-so-thinly veiled shot', then I sure would like to know where you think I did that. Could it be you are looking to turn something into a 'veiled shot'?

Get over the supposed affront to your ego. Nothing's directed at you, I'm just here having civil basketball discussion.

And go back to the original statement and untwist it - I never said they were clones, almost was carefully placed there for a reason.

You're right. I didn't see the original quote by tk. my apologies.

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Feb 2 at 18:06
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Accepted. I know I'm accused of alot around here. But I never directed anything towards you. I was really lost as to where you drew that inference.

Turnovers are directly a result of his role with the team. It's not even playing out of position, it's the fact that Ohio State has NOTHING in the form of creation from anywhere else on the team. He's got a huge burden on that team.

Also off tpoic:

Who o this team is "fungible." Meaning who could be easily replaced by a signing or pick?

Candidates:

Lou: yeas, maybe for cheaper but the replacement might be more of a jump shooter and less of a driver or set up guy (even compared to Lou.)

Iguodala: No, unless you draft Evan Turner, then yes :) But a top 4 pick would be a hefty price to replace someone, so that's more of a compliment than anything.

Jrue: TBD. Really depends on how he develops.

Thad: Yes, unless he really improves his floor game and handle.

Speights: Maybe, again depends on how you project him. His individual offensive skillset is pretty rare, but who knows how much he'll maximize his talent or play defense.

Sam: Yes, but harder and more expensive to replace than you might think. If only they could have gotten that 2nd round pick to get DeAndre Jordan they would be set. They should have just bought a late first and used it to draft him. opportunity missed.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 13:59
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Stealing my word :)

(PS Kyle Korver is a FA this off season isn't he? He replaces Kapono pretty well)

Lou's always been fungible, like Willie, I'm not ready to say Thad is just yet - though next season is the make or break season for him.

Speights - He only has half a game right now

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eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 13:58
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I agree to a certain extent that he isn't getting his customary looks in the half court, but it appears to me he is just as much at fault too. He seems to be giving the ball up either early or willfully. He's almost deferring to a fault these last few games or something.

He hasn't been taking defensive boards and relentlessly pushing the ball up the floor as is customary with him. I've noticed several times that when he gets the board or outlet pass, he quickly passes it to someone else sort of like a hot potato. He has done this quick relinquishing of the ball at times too in the half court sets.

As someone else mentioned after the game the other night, I kind of expected him to take his frustrations (with EJ, ES or whomever) out in an amped up kind of way on the court. And he's been far from that.

I'm not sure where the fault lies, or if it even matters. If they're going to be an efficient offense, they all need to get over their egos and the coach needs to dictate how the offense is going to be run. I heard Jordan calling out Iverson isos over and over again in the Nets game. I also noticed at least once where Iguodala grabbed a defensive rebound and pushed it up the floor only to pull up after he crossed mid-court and give the ball to Lou.

Whatever the issue is, they need to resolve it because the team is much, much better when Iguodala is contributing on the offensive end. I will say none of this has effected him on defense, he was very good against the Nets.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 14:32
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Yeah, I wasn't saying he was at fault solely, just that it has been hard for me to decipher if he has been frozen out or not. And I remember that exact play where he pulled up instead of continuing to attack and gave it to Lou.

Just curious, when EJ called out those Iverson isos were they just isos with Iverson on the strong side or did they turn into Iverson isos off a high ball screen/P and R type play?

Agree on the egos thing. That is bugging the hell out of me. There is just no place for it, no matter the chaos team- or organization-wide.

We are way more efficient when Iguodala is contributing on that end, if he would just not be so in love with his perimeter jumper. I realize he can get his shot off with ease due to his lift and his height, but I would love to see him back guys down more, kind of like Joe Johnson does frequently.

It was Iverson on the wing, and every time it wound up being Iverson dribbling the air out of the ball and then taking a jumper.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 14:42
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Oh, I meant on the weak side. B/c i remember him being on the wing a ton just dribbling around trying to probe the lane then the baseline but to no avail and then he would have to force one up with the SC running down.

Yeah, those were called plays at least a couple times in the second half. Jordan clearly said Iverson Iso, or AI Iso. Something like that. I think he heard me call him an idiot when he drew up a play to get Willie a corner three and Willie bricked it off the side of the backboard :)

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 14:48
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AI Iso

Wasn't that the extent of the offense in Iversons first trip through philly?

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JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 14:47
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And the second pick is not entirely out of reach - if the sixers make a reallly bad deadline deal trade and play youth - i think the wolves can catch em :)

Here's a question for you guys, assuming they make no trades, is Holiday, Turner, Iguodala, Brand, Dalembert under a coach who gives a shit about defense a playoff team next year? Are they a top-ten defensive team next year?

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The Greek reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 14:54
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It sure does sound like one hell of a good defensive team but I expect us to be picking in the 7-11 range. We have a fools gold run in us for the 2nd half.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 14:55
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That all depends as to who is on the bench and the progression of guys like young and speights in my opinion in terms of playoffs.

It's a pretty good defensive team though

Top 10 defense, absolutely. top 10 team... no.

Holiday/Turner/Iguodala with some seasoning would absolutely lock people down. the best perimeter defense in the NBA. But I'd expect some growing pains if you started a 20 year old and a rookie, even ones with naturally high BB IQ's like Jrue and Turner. the NBA is an adjustment.

6'4", 6'6", 6'7" and all of them quick/strong enough to guard PG, SG and SF on most teams. That would be something.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 15:07
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Playoff team - yes, but they are in the Eastern Conference. Not exactly an achievement to make it.

Top-ten defensive team - no, learning team defense and proper rotations is a tall task. And Brand isn't a lockdown type and Jrue/Turner's youth will show once a breakdown occurs.

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 15:09
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Jrue's already the best of the 'small guards' this team has defensively, the more minutes he gets this year the quicker he learns the NBA defensive game (yet another reason for him to get with it). His defense is the most mature aspect of his game right now in my opinion. If he worked hard on it and got 25-30 mpg this year - I think he'd be a very good to great defender against most point guards in the NBA by next season.

Must admit, watching Jrue, Turner, Iguodala would be more fun than watching lou and AI and willie defend no one.

I still think that finding a 3 point shooter (korver?) and thad getting his head together and speights evolving defensively would be just as important

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eddies' heady's reply to JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 15:18
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Being the best of our guards really isn't saying much, not taking anything away from him.

Yes, he can defend point guards well but his off the ball defense has been shaky several times this year. He drifts and loses his man. And when a breakdown occurs he seems unsure of the right rotation. And that's expected considering his youth, not a knock. Just why I said he and Turner would struggle as someone else said with the growing pains involved, so I can't see a top ten D team.

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 16:03
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Yes, he can defend point guards well but his off the ball defense has been shaky several times this year. He drifts and loses his man. And when a breakdown occurs he seems unsure of the right rotation

If he had better on the ball defenders on the floor with him (Turner/Iguodala) maybe he woudn't drift as mucH?

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eddies' heady's reply to JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 16:11
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I don't mean drifting because someone else's man got beat or the threat of it, I meant that he gets lost off the ball sometimes staying with his own man mostly on the weak side.

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 16:13
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Well he's young, he's being coached by an idiot and has limited minutes, I'm willing to thing he can get better at that with good coaching and a dedicated work ethic (which someone who worked with him directly at IMG says he has in spades).

Jrue tries to get sneaky and get steals. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes he gets burned.

Thad, on the other hand, just gets caught to much in no mans land. he drifts without it actually generating turnovers.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 16:18
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The bouncy ball hypnotizes him

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JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 15:17
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Rodney Carney cost the sixers a low first round pick this year?

Sigh

low firsts are useless, especially to a cash-strapped team like the Sixers. Much better to have early second round picks. The contracts aren't guaranteed and the it's a crap shoot talent-wise anywhere from the end of the lottery to the end of the draft, pretty much.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 15:20
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well low in 'top 17 protected' but better than not having a first round pick down there, and I don't expect the sixers to hve more than one second round pick this year - don't see them buying in because of that pesky luxury tax :)

It's just silly that getting rodney carney should have cost anything

Although low firsts are better than nothing, :).

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 15:22
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and rodney carney?:)

I thought the 1st rounder was sent in order to clear money to sign Brand?

Carney and Booth were taken off our hands. But actually it was mostly Booth.

That's what I thought as well. Are you talking about something else, John?

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 15:35
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Nope - confused them together because carney went to minnesota and then came back...sorry about that

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 15:34
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You're right - i just saw carney and assumed it was to sign him :)

Still - at this point - would you rather have the 23rd pick in the 2010 draft or Elton Brand

I'd give you the 23rd pick if you take on Brand at his cap number.

Or you can have Thad or Speights.

2. The 76ers are reportedly talking to teams about Andre Iguodala. Is he part of the problem or part of the potential solution in Philadelphia?

Thomsen: Yes and yes. He's a good player and he could be part of a winning program amid a better blend of talent. So, in that sense, Iguodala could be involved in the solution. The problem he creates is financial: His current salary of $12.2 million (with three additional years guaranteed) looks more and more onerous as the NBA economy recedes and payrolls tighten. Looking ahead to the new world of 2011-12 -- when budgets will shrink dramatically -- a player making that much money will be expected to be a franchise leader, but Iguodala has yet to prove himself as a difference-maker on the level of Joe Johnson. He doesn't have the worst contract in Philadelphia -- Elton Brand and Sam Dalembert are more of a drag on resources -- but Iguodala's high salary makes him central to the 76ers' core problem: They need to make changes, but they have too many overpaid players who are difficult to move in this market.

Hughes: I like Iguodala's game. I like the way he gets up and down the court and finishes. Clearly there are issues in Philly. And they need a makeover. But I'm not sure getting rid of one of their best players is going to solve the problem. Seems like a band-aid on a broken leg to me.

McCallum: AI -- no, not that A.I. -- is, as the saying goes, just good enough to get a coach fired. He's a versatile player with good numbers, but, at the end of the day, he doesn't do enough good things consistently. He'll make clutch shots ... sometimes. He'll get his own shot ... sometimes. He'll get his teammates involved ... sometimes. He'll become a defensive stopper ... sometimes. Iguodala is not good enough to be the Alpha Guy (they were expecting Elton Brand to play that role with Iguodala as Sundance) and that's partly why the Sixers are struggling. On the other hand, he is probably Philly's most tradable commodity, and the rumors that he could be traded to Cleveland (do we need to add that he won't be the best player there?) make a lot of sense.

Mannix: Iguodala's not the problem; his contract is. The Sixers' have been doing their best New York Knicks circa 2004 impression impression over the last few years, handing $80 million contracts to Iguodala and Elton Brand, and getting a fraction of the return on their investment. I don't blame Iguodala -- if someone handed me the winning lottery ticket, I'm going to take it. But his contract (along with Brand's) has hamstrung the Sixers with two players making superstar salaries. As a result, one (or both) has to go.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/basketball/nba/02/02/roundtable/index.html

Sounds about right. The franchise is broken, not the individual players.

Iguodala is an excellent player. Brand is rounding into form as a very good one.

They just can't account for 55% of your cap unless you have a superstar on the rookie scale.

Which they could have next season, if they stayed the course and got lucky.

I'm on the record saying no trade, new GM/coach and "develop your young players" into a bottom 4 record.

Then you make you decisions after the draft. There will be a lot of turnover this summer, and maybe a chance to shake things up. Otherwise you play out next season, because we would have 20M in expirings and with every year Brand has a shorter contract.

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OnthefencewithIGGY on Feb 2 at 16:27
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Tuesday, February 2, 2010
Igoudala, the point guard and Iverson
TNT had a conference call to talk about its All-Star coverage and members of their broadcast team were asked about several of the pressing issues facing the 76ers.

1. Andre Igoudala's future.

“They are going to have to come up with a solution for Andre Iguodala," Reggie Miller said. "Are they going to trade him or are they going to keep him? He’s reading his name in the paper every time he’s going into the sports complex. They bring back Allen Iverson the senior member of that team to try to bring back some stability. This is not the Philly team that we all expected; we expected them to be one of the top eight teams in the Eastern Conference so it’s been a little tough. Lou Williams was out with that broken jaw for a month or two months, so we haven’t seen the real Philadelphia 76ers.”

2. The lack of a point guard.

“People now are starting to figure out how important Andre Miller was to that team," Doug Collins said. "You take a point guard off that team, Andre Miller is one of the best to throw the ball ahead on the break and let guys attack. Sometimes you lose assists that way and usually a lot of point guards hold on to that ball until the last second to get assists. This guy advances the ball, he can get down to the post, play out of the post. When you look at Philadelphia, the year that they had the really good finish and they went to the playoffs, it was a team that was built on speed and quickness, they played a small line-up. When you get Elton Brand and you put Elton Brand with Samuel Dalembert, all of a sudden you have two guys (Thaddeus Young and Andre Iguodala) playing out of position with no point guard. Now all of a sudden your struggles start coming and you’ve got to teach an offense predicated on cutting and moving and reading. That’s an offense that takes a lot of time to learn and a lot of time to teach. Now you have some injuries and you bring Allen Iverson into the mix and they play a different style. They are twisting and turning in between, they are all over the board with what they are trying to get accomplished. That Philadelphia team is much better playing one big guy and four smalls and running and getting in the open court. I just don’t think the pieces fit well and they really, really miss a point guard.”

3. Iverson the All-Star?

“Sure (he should be starting), why not? The fans have spoken," Miller said. "It’s not Allen Iverson’s fault (that) the fans love him that much. I understand that playing in the All-Star Game shouldn’t be a lifetime achievement award. I go back to his press conference in Philadelphia the first time around when I remember him as a snotty-nosed brat talking about practice. The press conference he had when he came back to Philadelphia has the emotion, the tears, it showed how grateful (he was) to be back in the league with the team that gave him his start; that was a man in front of us. I’m happy that he’s going to be playing in the All-Star Game.”

Posted by Daily News staff @ 12:25 PM Permalink | 12 comments

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JohnEMagee reply to OnthefencewithIGGY on Feb 2 at 16:30
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So no comments about Jordan and they still think the sixers run the princeton offense.

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eddies' heady's reply to JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 16:43
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So, do you still consider it a 'straw' argument concerning Miller now that Collins says it?

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 16:49
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What I considered a straw argument was the argument that Miller provided the sixers with better defense...that's just nonsense and ridiculous...he's crap defensively.

Saying a team doesn't need a point guard (as Joran said) is just asinine...

Re-signing miller for a couple of years wasn't going to make the sixers title contenders...so why bother?

I don't care about this season - I care about building towards a title

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eddies' heady's reply to JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 17:23
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No, you said I made a straw argument about Miller after last Wed's game MIL game when I posed a theory as to why these players aren't performing as they did under Cheeks or DiLeo.

Now that Collins has said the same thing just wondered if you felt he was grasping at straws.

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 17:30
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That's not exactly what he said - if you read the whole thing - he said that the sixers are running a different kind of line up out there that doesn't play to their strengths.

I think Collins is vastly over rated in his analysis abilities, and honestly, since they're hardly ever on TNT - how many times do you think any of these guys have actually watched a sixers game this year?

I just wonder why you have this over riding desperate need not only to be right but to point out everyone is wrong...i found your discussion with derek fascinating (and keep in mind i like him slightly less than i like you) in that he called you out on your nonsense which you denied even though you've been doing it for months now, in game threads, in comments towards various posters here who disagree with you and don't respect the expertise you claim you have

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eddies' heady's reply to JohnEMagee on Feb 2 at 18:01
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Ha....Derek took a breakdown of 200 words to say "almost clone" while I took two words to say it. Because he felt the need to dissect or nitpick or twist my original statement, you'd have to ask him.

And the new commenting policy said to stay away from attacking people, instead attack opinions. So again, ask Derek why he strayed from that premise and took something personal (whatever it was) and became paranoid and thought something was 'directed' at him in a 'veiled' way.

I don't come here for respect or claim to have expertise (if it's taken that way, then that's on those that take it that way). I come here because I have an impassioned keen eye and love for the game of basketball. I could give a fuck about being right or wrong, but I will stand by my beliefs. If they happen to be seconded by a national writer or other public outlet, then whop-tee-do. That isn't confirmation, it's just someone else that shares the same opinions. It isn't validation, it's just amiableness.

If it bothers you that your dismissive gestures of my thoughts are backed up by other people who share the same outlook, whether it be D Berri or Doug Collins, then that is your issue, not mine.

alright, everyone get back on point. you and derek resolved this above, let's move on.

This is actually a really worthwhile topic, let's no ruin it.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Feb 2 at 18:12
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Exactly, it's like you can't talk just general basketball without folks going all personal and crap.

Maybe he'll find Derek's stand-up apology just as fascinating as he did the wrongful calling-out.

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JohnEMagee reply to eddies' heady's on Feb 2 at 18:32
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Actually what i was referring to in regards to derek and what he said, you missed the point (while taking shots) which is what you do...(and what dereks point was)

Gives you a sense of Collin's thoughts if he becomes coach.

Now, tk...don't tease me.

;-)

So you are on board with another "small ball" coach? I'm not sold on Collins. A smart guy, but not the greatest track record as a head coach.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/collido01c.html

I'm on board with Collins (as I have suggested in other posts) because 1) like LB, his teams in CHI and DET got materially better defensively (although admittedly some of that - like with LB-coached teams - had to do with the "pace" that his teams played at); 2) he has coached - and had success with - athletic swing guys (Andre Iguodala - Grant Hill redux?) on a team that will hopefully still have several of them; 3) he will - again, like LB - stress accountability and fundamentals...not give it lip-service like many of the recent guys who have been through here...

I would prefer Collins over Scott...and porbably JVG as well (although I would be fine with JVG). And while I know that I have little to base this on, I would be fine with Snow as well...bring him in now as an assistant to work with McKie now...and then let him interview for the job this summer.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/articles/2010/01/31/spirit_of_76ers_again_is_hitting_rock_bottom/?page=full

Spirit of 76ers again is hitting rock bottom
By Gary Washburn
January 31, 2010

Perhaps the only thing worse than losing to a rival is watching that rival dissolve into insignificance.

Such is the case with the Celtics and 76ers. Boston is a perennial title contender, while Philadelphia is on the verge of another rebuilding project - and a potential fire sale.

NBA life in Philadelphia is tough right now. Not only have the 76ers plummeted to a 15-31 record after Friday’s loss to the Los Angeles Lakers, they have watched Villanova and Temple steal the local basketball spotlight.

The 76ers tried rebuilding when they nabbed Thaddeus Young (2007) and Marreese Speights (2008) in back-to-back drafts. They tried surrounding Andre Iguodala with young talent, and when the cap space became available, the plan was to make the 76ers matter again by pursuing a premium free agent.

That seemed to be the fast track to rebuilding the franchise. The organization was finally going to get past the Allen Iverson Era by constructing a winning team through the draft and free agency.

However, the influx of youth has done little to improve the consistency or produce wins. The free agent the 76ers brought in, Elton Brand, spent most of his first season on the sidelines with a dislocated right shoulder and has spent his second season attempting to regain his All-Star form. The process has been laborious and unsuccessful.

Now, general manager Ed Stefanski has resigned himself to retooling a roster that has been an abject failure. The 76ers are a nonfactor and Stefanski was forced to bring Iverson back to make the team matter again.

The 76ers are 10-16 since Iverson’s return, and entering Friday’s game they were 27th in attendance, filling an NBA-low 65 percent of Wachovia Center on a nightly basis. So once again it’s time for change in Philadelphia, and no one is immune to banishment, not even Iguodala.

The 76ers’ most recognizable player - until Iverson returned - is immensely talented, but not enough to carry a franchise. He has four years left on his contract at a reasonable annual salary - $13 million - and could be a viable second option on a winning team. But as the best player on a losing team, Iguodala has regressed.

“This year it has [slipped], but I definitely think I have the talent [to be an All-Star],’’ he said after a recent practice. “It’s kind of a situation where you’re not winning and I really don’t think about it too much, especially when you’re not winning games. When you’re not winning, it’s a little bit different. I know the work that I put in, I will get there. It’s just not a good time or place right now.’’

A career 47 percent shooter, Iguodala is shooting barely over 42 percent this season. The losing is affecting his outlook. The 76ers have advanced to the playoffs just twice in his first five seasons - eliminated both times in the first round. And this season, with the lower tier of the Eastern Conference as below-average as it has been in years, the 76ers are still 8 1/2 games out of a playoff spot, a half-game ahead of Washington.

So Stefanski has decided to work the phones, hoping to make roster changes. Perhaps swap young players or dump Iguodala’s salary for a more consistent veteran or even trade Brand and the remaining $51 million on his contract (although there is a better chance of Gilbert Arenas being on the next NBA Cares promotion).

“The team we have here, we believe there’s talent here,’’ said Stefanski, the former Nets general manager. “Right now we’re at times underachieving. We have to get that together.

“But you are always looking [at trades]. Yes, every day I review with our personnel department, we review the league. We review all the personnel. We review ourselves - what do we have to do better and where we can go from there? - and that’s why you talk to teams actively every day, to find out what’s possibly available.’’

Stefanski refused to call anyone untouchable, meaning the 76ers don’t feel any of their players are worthy of being a cornerstone.

There is talent. Young is an improving player. Speights dominated in stretches last month against the Celtics. Louis Williams is a streak scorer.

But the pieces don’t fit together. The 76ers are a prime example of a team that was cobbled together by previous administrations, hoping talent (without chemistry) would be enough. The NBA is filled with players who can jump, shoot, rebound, and play defense, but if players lack leadership skills or don’t accept roles, they generally will fail.

The 76ers don’t have a bona fide leader. Iverson filled that role in his first stint, but he dominated the ball so much that he stunted the growth of teammates. Now the 76ers are at another crossroads. They are insignificant on the NBA landscape and have been for nearly 10 years.

The fan base has gone beyond impatience to ambivalence, and the players are wilting in the poisonous atmosphere.

“We’re all human, so we have a lot of different thoughts in our minds, but like I said, in order for myself to grow as a person, I have to deal with bad times as well as the good times,’’ said Iguodala, the ninth overall pick in 2004. “So what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, and this is a tough road we have been through but you’ve got to fight through it and that’s what I am trying to do. Until that next move comes, if it happens, or if I am here, I am going to continue to fight through it.’’

Iguodala talked with Arenas last summer after Eddie Jordan was named Sixers coach, and the Wizards guard told him it would take two years to learn Jordan’s Princeton offense. The 76ers don’t have that much time to wait with their current roster.

While Stefanski and Jordan are not responsible for the organization’s past mistakes, they are shouldering the blame for a failed season and continued degeneration.

“I think we’re all accountable, myself included,’’ said Stefanski. “The coaching staff, the players, myself are all accountable, and no one in this organization - no one - is happy with the record.

“We still like our young players. We think they’re good players, but we will listen to anything. With the record that we have right now, obviously you have to listen.’’

Yeah, I read that yesterday. The team is getting more in-depth analysis from Boston than some of our beat writers.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Feb 2 at 16:41
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Boston writers love to trump their superiority while beating on a 'former rival'.

The pending celticspocalypse is going to be fun

I'm not so sure.

Since they are willing to spend money, they may be able to leverage big expiring contracts into younger talent. Say they get someone like Butler for Allan- that could help them for a while.

Maybe they'ed want Brand :)

I disagree. Butler for Allen would maybe keep them on the level of the Hawks while Garnett and Pierce gimp their way through a couple more seasons, but their championship window slammed shut last season. Too many miles on the big three, and their young pieces (Rondo and Perkins) are good compliments, but won't carry a team anymore than Iguodala will carry a team offensively.

A smart trade could keep them relevant, meaning not first-round exits in the playoffs, but unless Garnett/Pierce start using HGH, I don't see this core winning another title.

I agree, I don't expect another ring. But I also don't expect "an apocalyptic demise."

Brain, a suggestion for a poll/post:

One of the few exciting things about the Sixers is guessing what kind of drastic change is coming. Sort of like tracking an impending hurricane.

Which outcome do you feel is most likely in the coming weeks, months:

1. A major trade involving Iguodala that essentially is a salary dump. bringing back small name talent and expirings.

2. A major trade bringing back a big name player.

3. A coaching or GM change.

4. No major move.

Going up right now.

Feel free to improve on the basic premise.


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