DFDepressed FanDepressed Fan

All  

Sixers

, all the time

Pick A Big

1) Favors
2) Aldrich

#1 I don't think is even a question, and hasn't been for quite some time.

#2 is definitely open to debate. Probably surprising since I've been leading the Udoh charge for the last month+, but I'd still be more comfortable taking Aldrich, and it really boils down to defense. I have a couple of fairly sizable concerns with Udoh, none of which has to do with his age.

First, he tends to give up post position against post scorers. He doesn't do a good job denying position before the entry pass, which can be corrected. But he also seems to lack lower body strength and can be pushed around down there, which often times isn't corrected.

Second, defensive rebounding. Again, he gets pushed around. he also doesn't do a great job of establishing position early. It's a common problem with shotblockers, but it's a problem when he's not attempting to go after a block as well.

One thing I do love about him is he can defend the perimeter, both pick and roll and face-up power forwards. In today's day and age, that's crucial.

Overall, I just feel Aldrich is the better overall defender right now.

He's also not the freak athlete you would expect from a guy with his shotblocking numbers. He's not a bad athlete, and his freakish wingspan and good timing for blocks should carry over, but he's not Whiteside athletically. A minor concern.

For these reasons I actually think Udoh would be a better fit NEXT to Sammy rather than in place of Sammy.

About his defensive rebounding, how much zone did they play this season? For me, d-boarding is about two things, 1) competing for the boards, 2) technique. The first is kind of an inherent thing, the second is somewhat coachable. To me, he looked like he was competing for them, but seemed to be out of position, or maybe swallowed up by multiple offensive rebounders. Could have something to do w/ the zone, could also have something to do with him not getting the right position, it was tough to tell that's why I was wondering about the zone. He was tenacious on the offensive glass, though.

I don't watch a ton of college basketball, so when I do I sort of look for skills/attributes that stand out to me. Skills that I think will translate to the next level (and are important on the next level). Johnson's jumper, Turner's drive/pull-up game, Wall's athleticism, Bradley's perimeter defense, and Udoh's shotblocking were the probably the things that stood out most to me in the tournament.

He probably won't be the rebounder Sam is, an maybe not the shotblocker either, but I do think he could be viable option at the five, and he'd be a pretty good finisher off the setups from Jrue and Iguodala. Seems to have his head screwed on straight, as well. I'd be happy with the pick.

As for Aldrich, well I'm not sure I see him as a big threat in the half-court offense. He may have a couple of moves in the post, but that's not necessarily what I envision as the most important skill for a center on a team built around guys probing the defense and finding guys for lobs.

Thanks for the thoughts. This is a good discussion to have.

They play quite a bit of zone. But I don't see that as his primary problem on the defensive glass. He's in position to work for position more often than he does, if that makes sense.

Not sure if the Aldrich comment was directed at me, but I certainly don't envision him being a big focus in half court offense.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 12:13
+/-

I must say I find the Aldrich love from some unsurprising as words like 'gritty' and 'right way' could be applied to him...plus of course, uncoordinated white guys get more play

I don't think I've ever called Aldrich "gritty", unless by that you mean fundamentally sound defensive game changer and rebounder.

btw, I don't "love" Aldrich. I just don't "love" anyone in this draft after the top 3 (although "really like" Wesley Johnson). I've said before I wouldn't be thrilled drafting Aldrich but I wouldn't be upset, either.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 12:22
+/-

Seriously dude - if i was referring to you i would have said so - hence my use of the term from some and not 'from you'

Hence why I said 'from some' - i'm just saying I think the love for Aldrich is grossly over rated because of his eckstein like qualities that are favored by some in the Philadlephia Fan community.

don't think it's a leap to jump to the conclusion you're talking about me when you're responding to my post which talked about Aldrich.

If you're not responding to my post, why are you responding to my post? Might help avoid confusion.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 12:26
+/-

Because it's the conversation about Aldrich and how good he might or might not be

It's really not all about you derek - check the ego boy

:D

Clearly, I'm the one with an ego.

This place needs an ignore feature for when you become like this.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 12:30
+/-

Or you could try to develop even the remotest sense of humor your pretentious know it all

LOL.

See who resorts to namecalling?

Happens every time. Yet you try to take the high and mighty road.

Pretentious? Lacking humor? You don't know the first thing about me.

But please, keep the name calling. It shows your true nature.

Stop. I don't have the patience today. Just stick to basketball, everyone. If you need to call anyone names, call me names. I thrive on that stuff. Or call Eddie Jordan names, he deserves it.

Alright, everyone needs to calm down.

My point about Aldrich vs. Udoh was that I think Udoh's skillset fits better on the offensive end than Aldrich's, if that makes sense. I don't know that either is ever going to draw doubles, so with the type of players we have (Jrue and Iguodala), I think Udoh is a better fit to be the guy receiving lobs, etc.

On the defensive end and the glass, I'm really not sure. I was impressed by Aldrich, he was more athletic than I thought. I think I was more impressed with Udoh's shotblocking and overall impact, though.

It's an interesting question, you're probably talking about trading some defensive rebounding for a better fit on the offensive end (IMO). Typically I'd choose the defensive rebounding, but something about Udoh intrigues me.

Chad Ford moved him up to #11 in his mock draft now, so trading down and getting him at a bargain may not be an option anymore.

Like I said, I'm not down on Udoh. At all. I've been pushing him as a potential guy for the past month. I'd just be slightly more comfortable with Aldrich at this point than Udoh, with how much I emphasize defensive rebounding. I don't think it's a clear cut case either way.

I hope we'll be able to get Cousins.It's a big risk,but he's worth it.

user-pic
AaronMcKie4MVP on Mar 29 at 9:26
+/-

1) i guess Favors by dafault. i really dont know much about Favors, havent watched him at all. Cousins i can tell you i dont like at all. ive never seen him use any sort of offensive moves, i see him as just a big, really strong guy. But his attitudes is terrible. yelling at refs, complaining about calls. When he walked out of the team huddle a few weeks ago, that sealed it for me.

2) Aldrich. i just really like this guy. everyone loves his defense and for some reason ignore his offense. this guy has plenty of offensive moves. great footwork underneath, up-and under moves, a mid range jump hook. if conditioning is his biggest issue, wait until he starts doing 2-adays for the NBA. that is the easiest thing to improve.

user-pic
The Greek reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Mar 29 at 11:01
+/-

Aldrich would be a very good pick but for some reason people see his upside as limited. I would love to have him defending, rebounding, and starting fast breaks with his outlet passing. Fuk favors and the busted horse he rode in on.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 11:21
+/-

Most people see his upside as limited because they've seen a lot more film on him than is available on a copule games on tv

user-pic
Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 9:34
+/-

Some NBA folks say they like Cousins on the court, but are concerned about him off it.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 10:35
+/-

And by some NBA folks you mean most of them, plus college media, plus anyone who has ever known cousins?

I'm not sure who id' draft from the bigs listed but I know I'd say no to ed davis and Cole Aldrich.

user-pic
The Greek reply to Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 10:36
+/-

We already have an all nba turd in Speights, don't need another one in cousins.

Favors, it's amazing that when you watch GT games he barely even shows up for half the games.

Also lets forget about pairing someone with Sam, and instead focus on replacing Sam.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 11:22
+/-

Even with 'work ethic' issues Cousins is better than Speights, pure and simple, on both end of the floor.

Anyone read this?

Really interesting if you ask me.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Joe on Mar 29 at 11:20
+/-

And there is no link between NBA production and Final Four appearances. So for those who believe decision-makers are perfectly rational, this would be a troubling result.

Not a big shocker...it's a small sample size given unusual importance.

Heck, it doesn't even really decide the best team in college, can't really do that without a 'series' of games between the teams - one game doesn't decide who is overall better anyway.

Oh yeah - who thought decision makers were perfectly rational?

Trade for Kevin Love 1 time? we need to start a K-love campaign imo.

Trade Iggy and pick and get Turner or trade Thad and pick and get Favors.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Mike P. on Mar 29 at 12:12
+/-

And why would any team do that?

Same reason some teams trade the #5 pick for Jamison. Overvaluing the known because these guys "haven't played an NBA game". Don't expect it to happen, but I get surprised every year.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 12:21
+/-

I think the value of Iguodala and Thad isn't as high as a guy like Jamison when he was traded for #5 or Ray Allen when the sonics made their deal - i'm not saying it's accurate - but seriously - after this season - Thad Young probably has less value than the unproven derrick favors and his magical young upside :)

Is Iguodala's value higher than Mike Miller and Randy Foye's was last year?

Those guys were traded for the #5 pick last summer.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 12:35
+/-

Is there a team in the top 5 missing it's star player who thinks when everyone is healthy they're going to contend and thus they don't need their top 5 pick?

It's circumstances brian, perception of player and perceptoin of roster...the washington gm (wrongly many felt) though when everyone was healthy he had a contending team if he added a few pieces.

Maybe if Utah gets lucky and jumps the line - but looking around the league - most of the team who will be in the top 5 aren't there because of injuries to their stars as much as they just plain stink.

I admit bad trades are done all the time, but bad trades that are situational...i don't see a team in the top 5 right now that says 'yeah we're good if we're all healthy' like the wiz gm (wrongly) thought last summer.

And I really don't see anyone valuing Thaddeus Young over Derrick Favors after this season cause Thad in his 'pivotal' third season took a rather substantive step backwards...for whatever reason (i'm not sure you can blame joran for his piss poor rebounding)

Just to play Devil's advocate, what are the odds one of the teams who winds up with a top-three pick is really a solid franchise that doesn't make bad decisions? The question is really whether the Sixers can actually take advantage of another team for once, and how poorly run the Sixers will be at that point.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 13:08
+/-

Well I think the Nets are better run usually than their record indicates - and now they has deep pockets.

The Wolves - I'd say the jury is out on khan and rambis because it's less than a year though right now if i had to choose i'd say kahn is fail more than succeed.

The warriors are a fracking mess and up for sale.

Detroit - well we know how you feel about joe dumars :)

Sacramento - Petrie seems to have a clue

And the bigger question is - can Stefanski take advantage of ab ad GM and where is comcast penny pinching (in regards to the luxury tax) fit in in the whole thing.

Does the penny pinching argument really hold much water at this point? If the lux tax was such a concern, wouldn't Iguodala and Dalembert be in Houston right now?

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 30 at 10:36
+/-

The luxury tax isn't a problem until the 2011 trade deadline (and you know this) the sixers aren't over the luxury tax this year - but thats why andre miller was only offered a one year deal

user-pic
Mike P. reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 14:09
+/-

*shrug* Why would a team give a 30 year old big man coming off a major surgery almost max money?

Weird stuff happens.

If we can get Turner/Wall for some combination of Iggy/Lou/Thad and/or our pick, we have to do that.

Favors/Johnson for Thad, Lou, Spieghts, and/or our pick is fine too.

If we can't get any of those 5 guys, then we have to take the guy who can fit in best with Iggy and Jrue.

Minnesota is supposed to be high on Iggy and if they get like the 3rd pick and don't want Favors/Johnson, why not give up some of our guys for that? Maybe would even just give up Iggy straight up for that pick and still keep ours.

There is plenty of opportunity, our GM just needs to look at our team as a mess. Not one that is a step away from contending.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Mike P. on Mar 29 at 14:15
+/-

Wall and Turner are not in the same category...any gm who would trade away the #1 pick for Andre Iguodala and the 7th pick probably should be fired....any gm in my opinion...doesn't matter if it's utah or the clippers or new orleans...it's a fireable offense

I don't think anyone sane should trade the chance for turner for iguodala either.

I support both of these (although Iggy and a pick for Turner is a bit steep, depends what contracts come back with turner).

Yeah, I talked about this yesterday. If we're talking GSW at #2, are you willing to trade Iguodala and #7 for #2 and Maggette? I'm not.

Maggette's contract has 3 years left, right?

Could we release Maggette and never have to play him? I might be willing to pay his contract but not have him play at all. I just don't want him to work his way back to 30 mpg and take time away from guys who might develop into something more than one-dimensional.

Essentially, we'd be taking on another $10M in dead weight for the same length of Brand's contract.

Maybe you'd be able to get them to throw in Morrow or Randolph as well.

I don't think they'd just buy him out or anything, he'd play. That would give us this core going forward, I suppose with an eye to 2012:

Jrue - 22 at the time
Turner - Turner 24
Morrow (27) or Randolph (23)
Lou - 26
Thad - 24
Speights - 25

The main question is, would they be bad enough with that roster to accrue any more high draft picks to the add to this core, or would the be good enough to reach a point where their cap space would allow them to add needed pieces via free agency to become a contender. Decisions would also need to be made on Thad and Morrow/Randolph by that summer, so the cap space may not be as much as you'd think.

user-pic
ryano reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 12:40
+/-

What about #2, Maggette, and Randolf?

user-pic
Rich reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 12:45
+/-

From a sheer value standpoint, the difference between number 2 and 6 is very steep. What about #2 and a package involving Morrow without any terrible contracts for Iggy and #7?

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 12:46
+/-

From a sheer value standpoint, the difference between number 2 and 6 is very steep. What about #2 and a package involving Morrow without any terrible contracts for Iggy and #7?

Can a team trade a guy who is going to be a free agent once the season ends? How's that work?

user-pic
Rich reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 12:52
+/-

Who, Morrow? He's got another year left I believe. Love the sarcasm too.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 12:55
+/-

WEll it wasn't sarcasm - it's a legitimate question - because according to storytellers - morrow doesn't have a contract through next season...

Click Here

user-pic
Rich reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 12:59
+/-

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/golden_state.htm

Hoops Hype says he has another year. I don't know then.

user-pic
Rich reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 13:02
+/-

OK, I looked it up, he's a restricted FA. The 10/11 salary is the qualifying offer they have to make to retain him, but I doubt he goes anywhere.

Yeah, you can't trade an RFA either, at least not until you sign him, which they can't do before the draft.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 13:06
+/-

So either way morrow can't be traded before the draft?

Nope, I don't believe he can.

I'm pretty sure players with options can't be traded until the options are picked up, either. So Willie couldn't be traded until he picks up his option.

On a related note, someone prank call Willie's agent and tell him that if Willie opts out someone is going to sign him to a full MLE offer. Maybe we can grease the wheels.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 13:12
+/-

I still think Lou Williams is the 'tax room' casualty - just has more trade value than willie green - even though willie expires :)

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 13:02
+/-

Story Tellers tends to be more accurate (in general) than hoopshype I've found, but they might be off on morrow it seems...rotoworld says there's a team option for next year...

I just thought he was a free agent this year and I know the timing of things in the NBA is kind of weird on certain things

Maybe this is absurd but from the second I turn on the TV and see Cousins on my screen, I see Derrick Coleman, comportment-wise. Or maybe Rasheed. Maybe a mix of those two guys and a young Kenyon Martin (who did eventually become a pretty good, non-headcase player). He just scares me, and I would not draft him. Udoh has skills, but where was he on the glass? How physical of a post player is he? There was one late possession where he tried to score on Scheyer, misses a bank shot. I'll give you that he's less finessey than Monroe. He's also about 4 years older. I guess of that group I'd take him but I wouldn't be that optimistic about what he'll amount to.

3 years older than Monroe, and I'm not sure if any amount of years is going to take the softness out of Monroe's game.

He's not on your list but I'd take Aminu. If we want to go back to being a defensive team that looks to run He'd be the best fit. He's a freak athlete and his rediculous wingspan (I think its sometihng like 7'4 or 7'5) helps him play bigger than he is. Since he's moved to the four full time his rebounding numbers have skyrocketed and hes averaging 16 and 11 on the season. If we dont get into the top 3 Aminu is the best fit for the sixers.

Do you see him as a four in the pros?

user-pic
Steve reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 13:48
+/-

Absolutely. He's got a nice midrange game and towards the end of the season really started to develop some low post moves. My favorite was a nice little jump hook he started relying on. He has his flaws and he has to be a little better off the dribble but his knack for getting boards on both ends, his long arms and developing post game he definitely can be a full-time four. He reminds me of Josh Smith with a little less strength but a higher motor and better head on his shoulders.

user-pic
Charles Shackleford's Top Hat on Mar 29 at 13:54
+/-

Brian,

I think i am with you, there is something about Udoh that i really liked. He seems cerebral. The kind of guy the D. Morey would scoop up and he would turn into a nice player. Now i don't think he is a franchise changer, but at 8-9 you are really only hoping for a solid rotation guy. I like him. I like his handle, the way he passes andhis demeanor. Kind of seems like Dikembe without the "who wants to sex Mutombo" part.

Don't trade Iggy. If we are learning one thing down the stretch here is that Iggy can play 2 if you have a shooter at 3. You might even have Speights at 4 alot in the next couple of years and in that situation his range doesn't hurt. Speights at 4 and Udoh at 5 is not so bad. Package, Thad, Speights, Lou, and whatver else you can find and just get a 3 with a pure stroke. With the right coach, Iggy will jack less bombs and be the legit triple double threat and him and Jrue for a lock down back court.

One final thought, i wonder what Kate Fagan would say about this? I would be interested to get her take on a pure stroke 3 and iggy at the 2. I saw Kate in nyc one night, she is alot cuter in person that she is in that picture, btw.

CSTH

user-pic
Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 14:16
+/-

Williams practiced Monday after missing the last two games with low back pain. He's expected to play Tuesday vs. the Thunder, barring a setback.

Young is out again with a fractured right thumb.

user-pic
Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 14:18
+/-

I know if it's a long shot, but do the Sixers take Wall or Turner if they luck out and get the No. 1 overall pick at the May 18 draft lottery? Assume they rate Wall a little higher than Turner, who would fill more of a need.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 14:22
+/-

Ugh - why is this even a debate

You take John Wall - every team in the nba takes john wall - and figures it out - EVERY team

Evan Turner is number two - evan turner is the college player of the year - john wall wasn't even freshman of the year in his conference (or on his team) but John Wall is the #1 pick...throwing turner into it as an option just is to generate story i guess.

If the sixers only rate wall ' a little higher' than turner - than the sixers evaluating staff probably needs some time off

user-pic
Tom Moore reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 14:37
+/-

I agree. But you have Holiday, who may turn out (while good) to be a poor man's Wall.

The Sixers aren't close enough to pass on Wall. I'm pretty sure the only team with a shot at getting him who maybe wouldn't take him is Utah, and even that's debatable.

I could see the Warriors passing on him. Not because of any logical sense, but because they're that dysfunctional.

can you imagine Wall and Curry on the perimeter together? Unguardable. Then you can get rid of that turnover machine for a decent defensive big and you're set.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 14:40
+/-

And some team passed on michael jordan cause 'they already had the guy' that played his position...You draft the best player in the draft when you have the fiirst pick and you work it out - either holiday becomes strong trade bait or wall and holiday work together in the back court.

Unless the franchise is delusional enough to think that they can contend any time soon and Turner makes them instant contenders which is a whole other problem of wax.

There are a few teams who MIGHT consider passing on wall if they had the #1 pick i guess (Utah, New Orleans) but the sixers shouldn't consider it if they get that freaking lucky

Until Cousins' name is called by someone else, I'm just dreaming about him.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Joe on Mar 29 at 15:18
+/-

So many red flags on him a thorough long (3 hours) type face to face interview is required by the sixers before I would be comfortable with them picking him.

If they can't get speights to work - how will they deal with cousins issues?

user-pic
AaronMcKie4MVP reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 16:20
+/-

an interview ? so if cousins promises to have a better attitude and be a man, then its safe to pick him? we are talking millions of dollars difference here, i think i can put on a 3 hour game face to ensure an extra few million.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Mar 29 at 16:24
+/-

Well I doubt you could...

My guess is that Cousins was allowed to live the typical life of entitled high school athlete (which isn't his fault) and no one asked much of him until he got to kentucky...if you don't think yo ucan take the true measure of a man in a 3 hour interview (hell if you're good you can do it in half the time) there's more to an interview than just what they say...it would have to be without the agent cause the agent gets in the way.

I don't remember who it was - but some prospect (marbury?) interviewed with croce and immediately turned him off by referring to 'my team' - when talking about the sixers.

For a guy like cousins the interview is the most important part - obviously - you were a finished product at 19 and never had any more maturing to do.

Most people aren't

user-pic
The Greek on Mar 29 at 16:21
+/-

Having Speights and Cousins share the same locker room would be a disaster. Those guys would be skipping practice to play video games on a daily basis.

It would probably be more beneficial if Speights was addicted to video games. It's hard to eat while you're playing.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 16:28
+/-

I haven't heard any 'work ethic' question with cousins as much as coachability questions - and does anyone think he's ever really been coached before his first year at Kentucky? I mean come on...guys like that dominate their AAU and high school teams and are treated as royalty.

They both have issues - but I feel that their issues are 'different' issues - they still would have to be worked out - and i'm not fully giving up on speights (he gets one more off season) - but that's why you take the time to figure out who the kid really is and an interview is how it's done - sans agent

user-pic
Tray reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 16:37
+/-

"I haven't heard any 'work ethic' question with cousins as much as coachability questions - and does anyone think he's ever really been coached before his first year at Kentucky? I mean come on...guys like that dominate their AAU and high school teams and are treated as royalty."

Yeah, well why aren't we hearing any of this stuff about Wall or Turner then?

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Tray on Mar 29 at 16:38
+/-

Like I said - not everyone is a finished product at 19 - but yeah - write off the most talented big man in the draft without even talking to him - that's just the kind of thing a guy should get fired for

I think most talented is debatable.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 16:41
+/-

Fine - one of the two most talented.


user-pic
Jesse reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 19:23
+/-

Cousins is an absolute monster on both ends of the floor (although a few analysts question his consistent interest in playing defense), and the only problem I see with him is his off-court antics. Granted, that can become a major issue, but I would still be excited if the Sixers are able to nab him this summer. A lot of it comes down to who will be coaching this team next year. If you get a guy who has a track record of being able to handle difficult personalities I say you go for Cousins over Favors. Otherwise, it might be smarter to avoid the risk.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Jesse on Mar 29 at 19:25
+/-

I find this whole 'get the right coach' thing over rated if basketball is your chosen profession you either dedicate to working at it or you don't - it's an off season thing...sam never worked on fixing his flaws - speights seems to have questionable work ethic - thad works but he got worse (but that may be because thad worked with the wrong guy) and while jrue got better working with the right guy i expect he'll keep working in the off season.

I thik the concerns people have about cousins are valid - but i think there are ways to determine before drafting him whether they're fixable or not - and if they aren't - well you don't draft him cause you already have one big man with potential who isn't interested in getting better don't add the guy who is never going to listen OR work if that's the diagnosis

user-pic
Jesse reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 19:51
+/-

You just said you didn't think work ethic was a problem with Cousins. Thought the challenge was more controlling his behavior and personal issues.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Jesse on Mar 29 at 19:55
+/-

Well what i said wasn't i hadn't heard any work ethic issues with Cousins - as there were about Speights before the draft but had heard behavior/coachability issues - which are just as big a problem as work ethic issues if a player doesn't fix them.

I just don't like throwing cousins and speights in the same boat - cousins accomplished more in college than speights - i think he's a better over all player than speights even though speights is 3 years older than him - and the reported issues are different ones - i don't know that they're any more fixable but Cousins reported issues are different than speights.

In the end they're both 'mental/attitude' issues that make the talent not as appeallng if they aren't fixable - can we acgree on that?

user-pic
Jesse reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 20:05
+/-

We can absolutely agree that Cousins has the potential to be better than Speights (and may be better than him now). I agree with you that if there's a work ethic problem, that cannot always be fixed by a coach. However, because that doesn't seem to be the case with Cousins, I think a coach that can handle difficult personalities has a chance to negate Cousins' behavior problems. For example, once Latrell Spreewell got to the Knicks, you didn't hear of major off-court issues with him anymore. He got away from P.J. Carlesimo and never had a problem with Jeff Van Gundy.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Jesse on Mar 29 at 20:10
+/-

Do you think Rick Pitino is a hard coach to play for? That players hate him and can't wait to get away from him? Cousins was playing for one of the best (current) College coaches, and he had issues of coachability. That's an issue of the PLAYER not the coach, not as I see it, a player has to know he needs to be coached and respect his coach, regardless of if it's PJ Carlessimo or the idiot van gundy.

Besides, Latrell had a lot of mouths to feed

user-pic
Jesse reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 20:41
+/-

When did Cousins ever play for Pitino? Do you even know who we're talking about

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Jesse on Mar 29 at 21:03
+/-

Yeah I do, i just get pitino and calipari mixed up in my head a lot - both greasy slicked dudes who coached at kentucky :)

Meant to say calipari...same basic principles in what i said - I mean Cailpari is seen as more of a tool by many than Pitino but they're both carpetbaggers

user-pic
The Greek reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 16:40
+/-

Technically correct, but many video games are followed by the extreme case of munchies if you know what i mean.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 16:41
+/-

Yes, cause all those gamers are notorious pot heads?

Unfortunately, they're holding the same BS workouts this summer. No five-on-five.

This belonged somewhere below. I'm not getting into a pot head/gamer stereotype debate.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 17:04
+/-

I figured as much :)

But then again i've never heard the pot head gamer stereotype before - how can you be a good gamer high - it messes with all your reflexes

user-pic
JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 16:30
+/-

At 76ers: Iguodala didn't practice (plantar), he'll play tomorrow. Thad (thumb) out today and tom. Lou (back) practiced, game-time tomorrow.

Just sit him, for fuck's sake.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 16:36
+/-

But he wants to play in all the games, and it means a lot to his teammates that he play through the pain - it's very important in the last 9 games that he play or who knows what might happen

Again, blaming a player for wanting to play seems ridiculous to me. Right now, the team should say if you aren't well enough to practice, we're going to sit you just to be safe.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 16:40
+/-

Here we are discounting Cousins because of questions of behavior but praising Iguodala for endangering his health and his long term committment to the team and making it a team decision.

Dear Team I feel good enough to play

Dear Andre - no

Dear Team - well fuck you then

If a player feels he's healthy enough to play - regardless of what 'staff' say (and we still don't know what the trainers are saying which is just ridiculous) - and he's the 'center' of the team and the team tells him no - you run a bigger risk of alienating an already fragile relationship.

Who knows maybe they want him to get hurt so insurance can pay his salary

I'm sorry, but this is a cut and dried situation IMO. Any player who physically can play, whose training staff says he can play, but opts not to is by definition a selfish malingerer. Period, end of story. It's not Andre Iguodala's job to sit himself down if he can play through the pain. He gets paid to play 82 games a season. Apparently he's one of the few who actually cares about things like earning your paycheck in the league.

The risk/reward analysis isn't his responsibility, especially not if the training staff is telling him he can play. His responsibility is to be on the floor. It's the franchise's responsibility to shut players down if they have marginal injuries, when it's not worth the risk to have them on the floor, which I believe is currently the case.

And you can knock the guy the for wanting to be on the floor, but this is leadership. Yes, this season is lost, but at least one or two of these young guys is going to be on the team in the future when, hopefully, games in April will matter. Setting the tone of "If you can play, you do play," is important. Especially when you have guys like Lou sitting for a week plus with "back spasms" while he's jumping around on the bench in a suit.

I'd much rather have Iguodala giving quotes right now saying "I feel like I could be out there, but the trainers and doctors are playing it safe," than see him out on the floor. That's without a doubt. At the same time, I don't want him begging out of games. I don't want any player on any team I'm following to ever do that, no matter what the circumstance.

There's seriously nothing Iguodala can do to make Sixers fans happy, is there? You aren't even an Iguodala hater and you get caught up in it.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 16:54
+/-

Never knew you bought into the rah rah bull shit espoused by many of the old schoolers out there...interesting.

I understand you see it as a cut and dried situation - but unless you read something that the trainers / doctors with the team said that no one else has (and tom moore can't seem to get access to) how do we know what the team doctors said?

So you're presuming the doctors and trainers have said he can't play, and he's just so pig-headed that he's ignoring them and the team has no say in the matter?

I'm not sure why the player doesn't get the benefit of the doubt in this situation. Ultimately, the team can tell him he isn't suiting up. They've never been worried about Iguodala's feelings in the past, why would they start now?

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 17:03
+/-

So you're allowed to guess about what's really going on and no one else is?

I think it's selfish much like I thought Cal Ripken pursuing his streak was selfish

Whether or not you think you can play - before the last game - all Iguodala was doing was shooting like shoot and helping the team lose - i've usually found that atheltes are the worst judges of whether or not they're healthy enough to play because of the 'manly' bullshit

That's why the NFL had to institute all their neat new concussion rules because players would never admit being woozy or foggy cause it's not 'manly'

Unless one has a history of sitting every time they have the slightlest injury it's highly unlikely they'll say that they can't go without al ittle help.

You see it as 'leadership' (which I see as nonsensical) i see it as stupidity.

Yeah, but we aren't talking about a 40-year-old Cal Ripken here. We aren't even really talking about a meaningful streak. We're talking about a 26-year-old who obviously can play with the injury. I mean, if he wasn't playing would anyone else on the roster be doing as well as he is right now, even when he was jacking too many jumpers?

The question of whether he should be playing isn't his to answer. He's not a doctor. He can deal with the pain, he's the team's best option on the floor, even hobbled, so again, why would you want a guy in that situation to beg out?

And you're talking about a slippery slope with players, especially during a season like this. Back spasms turns into a pretty good reason to take a week or two off mighty easily when the games aren't so much fun to play.


user-pic
The Greek on Mar 29 at 16:44
+/-

Cousins offensive game is nice but what does he offer on defense besides an occasional forearm to someones face besides defensive rebounding?

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 16:47
+/-

he averages 1 steal and close to 2 blocks per game - he's the size and bulk of a center

Speights offers half an offensive game cause he shoots - and does nothing else...he's already a vast improvement over speights and 2 or 3 years younger than him.

All this bitching about how 'soft' the sixers players are and now discounting cousins cause he likes to foul hard...

user-pic
The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 16:57
+/-
user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 16:58
+/-

Yippee

After workouts i predict he slides to 11-20

user-pic
The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 17:01
+/-

lol don't be rude to our future 1st round pick.

If history has taught us anything, Aldrich won't be the pick. If I had to guess, DiLeo goes with Whiteside over Aldrich, if those are the two he's got to choose from.

user-pic
The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 17:00
+/-

Positional defense is the most important aspect of defense for me. Speights can get 2 blocks a game. Does anyone know if Cousins is a strong positional defender?

He averages 1.8 blocks per game. Speights averaged 1.4 blocks per game. I don't think either blocks or steals is all that great of an indication. I worry about his lateral mobility big time (as well as his technique), and don't see his blocks translating at all.

Shot blocking

For me, there's a threshold for Cousins. The red flags have meaning, but so does his obvious talent. Wall, Evans, Favors and Wesley Johnson are above Cousins, depending on measurements, etc. Cousins doesn't drop below number five for me.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 17:05
+/-

I'm just talking on pure talent alone pure talent he's either 3 or 4 depending on how you judge favors - in my opinion

user-pic
JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 17:06
+/-
user-pic
The Greek on Mar 29 at 17:11
+/-

What has Favors done to deserve such respect? On the court Favors is a stiff compared to Cousins.

Brian I agree that the Sixers would probably take Whiteside over Aldrich because of his athleticism. I can't offer an opinion either way about Whiteside because I have never seen him play.

that other end of the court. favoris is dominant, cousins not so much.

Favors put up pretty good numbers (61% from the floor) with poor guard play (he didn't have maybe 2 of the top 3 points in the tourney passing the ball to him), he's almost a full year younger than Cousins. Better defender, better athlete and none of the red flags that come w/ Cousins.

Here are the red flags Draft Express lists for Cousins:

- Better suited for half-court offense
- Out of control at times
- Settles for bad shots
- Activity level
- Commitment to playing defense
- Defensive fundamentals
- Gambles defensively
- Lateral quickness
- Body language
- Doesn't always know limitations
- Doesn't always play hard
- Focus
- High bust potential?
- Intelligence
- Maturity
- Mental toughness
- Off-court red flags?
- Questionable intangibles
- Passing out of post
- Average athleticism
- Lacks explosiveness

user-pic
The Greek reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 17:32
+/-

Is that all? lol, Cousins might turn out to be a good pro but It wouldn't be with us.

Favors sounds like a young Tyrone Hill, great point about Cousins playing with 2 of the best pg's in the nation btw.

Problem is that Favors is listed at 6'9, who if he pans out will become a solid rebounder and defender. Isn't that what you get out of Alrdich?

DX has him at 6'10", interested to see where he measures at the pre-draft workout.

Here's his DX profile, the wingspan is really meaningful, just ask Jason Smith.

The Tyrone Hill comparisons don't seem accurate to me, Hill didn't block shots, could score efficiently at all. Favors is pretty well developed defensively now, and he's got room to grow on the offensive end. Whether he's every a real threat on the offensive end on his own is questionable, but I do think he could put up excellent numbers simply by being an athletic big who can catch and finish with Jrue and Iguodala on the perimeter. He's also a guy who can (a) ignite the break on the defensive end and (b) run the floor well enough to be part of the break. I'm not sure you regularly get either of those things from Cousins, though he'll probably give you much more in the half-court on the offensive end.

"Problem is that Favors is listed at 6'9"

Only by nbadraft.net. The Georgia Tech website has him at 6'10". ESPN.com has him at 6'10". DraftExpress has him at 6'10".

Pointless to say he's "only" 6'9" when he's listed at 6'10" officially and in a month we'll have him measured definitively. He definitely looks long enough when I watch him.

"Favors sounds like a young Tyrone Hill" ... "who if he pans out will become a solid rebounder and defender. Isn't that what you get out of Alrdich?"

How much Georgia Tech have you seen this year? Those descriptions aren't near close to his level offensively, IMO.

user-pic
The Greek reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 17:53
+/-

Derek I have seen about 5 gt games this season, 4 of those times Favors didn't do anything to make me think that he was this top 5 lottery lock that he is being made out to be. The other guy outplayed him every single game.

Derek are you predicting stardom for Favors?

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 17:56
+/-

5 games huh?

How many games has georgia tech played this year?

Derek has advanced powers of access that very few if any have here and can see hella more favors than anyone here can access via espn / cbs

user-pic
The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 18:01
+/-

Yes only 5 games, I didn't claim to be an expert on him.

I think Favors steps into the NBA as an impact player on the defensive end/glass, and has a heckuva lot of offensive potential. He's still only 18 years old (and will be at draft time), went to a terrible guard rotation, and was behind a very good junior post player in Lawal in terms of seniority and touches.

He's the most well-rounded big in terms of being an impact player on both ends of the court since Dwight in my opinion.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 17:57
+/-

and was behind a very good junior post player in Lawal in terms of seniority and touches.

That was my problem every time i watched Georgia Tech - Lawal seemed to be a much bigger focus on the offensive end (on purpose)

He was.

And the guards were wretched.

And there was no floor spacing.

And Lawal and he were redundant.

It was a terrible situation for him. Once he gets into the NBA with a real point guard and some floor spacing he'll realize the game wasn't meant to be as difficult as it was last year. The kid's going to be a beast. I hope people only look at his year stats and underrate him and the Sixers find a way to get him.

I'd also be curious when in the season those 5 games came. His progression towards the end of the year was quite steep. He averaged nearly 16 ppg over his final 11 games of the season.

user-pic
The Greek reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 17:58
+/-

Will he have a better career then Tyrone Hill?

Will John Wall be better than Andre Miller ?

user-pic
The Greek reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 18:12
+/-

Yes I believe so, but Andre Miller has had a good nba career.

user-pic
Rich reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 17:44
+/-

Hmmm, better suited for half court offense, is that a negative? Isn't that how you win in the playoffs? It kind of seems why we wanted Elton Brand. I see why Favors would be more valuable, defense and maturity being main reasons. I do think Cousins is a superior offensive player. He knows how to score in the block. A guy shooting close to 56 percent shooting bad shots too? That's a pretty good problem to have.

user-pic
Rich reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 17:48
+/-

Kind of just playing devil's advocate, because I would easily take Favors, but I think his offense is ahead of Favors, even if he isn't as athletic.

Hmmm, better suited for half court offense, is that a negative?

Depends, if that's a polite way of saying he's slow and/or lazy, then yeah, it's a negative.

He's clearly the best offensive big in the draft, right now and probably projecting into the future as well.

It's probably not that difficult of a discussion to have.

Offense - Cousins
Defense - Favors
Mobility - Favors
Strength - Cousins
Maturity - Favors
Age - Favors
Ceiling - (I'd probably say Favors here, but you could go either way I suppose)


Of the two, though, I could see Cousins really carrying an offense if he puts it all together. Not sure about Favors, but probably not.

It's probably priorities/personal preference.

user-pic
Rich reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 18:00
+/-

I guess that's my problem with Favors. The Greek makes a good point above about Favors, he didn't produce well in college. This has been explained by the counter that his guards suck, which is true, and that other prospect Gani Lawal was taking too many shots from him. I didn't see that in conference time really.

It does seem kind of shaky that the safe pick was a little underwhelming in college, production wise. Jrue Holiday was the same way, so that's not the final word at all, but it is interesting. I feel that Cousins outplayed Favors on a much better team (way more consistent), so it's interesting why Favors is the obvious pick here. We're talking about a proven low-post guy versus a guy who's not all there yet. I guess his attitude is that bad if it's holding him back.

Jrue underperformed in college, I'd say Favors was clearly under-utilized. I mean, he did shoot 61% from the floor, grab 8+ boards and block 2+ shots/game. It's not like his production was pitiful.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 18:05
+/-

Jrue's an excellent example - which worked to the sixers advantage

Bad team - played out of position - wasn't allowed to be 'himself'.

History indicates that of the two combatants, I know which side i have to choose

user-pic
The Greek reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 18:10
+/-

If you saw a guy play 5 games and that player shit the bed 5 times wouldn't be entitled to an opinion?

user-pic
The Greek reply to The Greek on Mar 29 at 18:14
+/-

Sorry meant to post this in response to mgee.

user-pic
Rich reply to Brian on Mar 29 at 18:13
+/-

OK, Jrue underperformed, but he was also badly out of position. Collison (who is a good player) took him out of his position and he could never get comfortable with someone as ball-dominant as Collison (He was a senior, it was his team).

Favors was under-utilized though? Isn't that a nice way of saying he didn't want to dominate and shied away? His team was crazy how up and down they were as well, while Cousins had a more consistent team. Obviously, Cousins had a better team, but he carved his niche with Pat Patterson, who is also a draft prospect. What is your hope for him, to become a dominant low-post scorer? Didn't you want him to become the guy who cleans up on assists and blocks shots? Pretty much that's what he was doing this year, right? IMO it's not a huge difference between Favors and Lawal from where Jrue and Collison played.

Just pushing you a little bit to make sure you want Favors more than you are scared of Cousins.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 18:16
+/-

Isn't that a nice way of saying he didn't want to dominate and shied away?

Only if you want it to be.

Coaches still rule in college folks - and if paul hewitt runs a crappy system that he wanted Lawal fed more than favors - that's how it works - he doesn't care about getting favors ready for the NBA - that doesn't keep him employed - WINS keep college coaches employed - not how well they prep guys for the NBA

There's money to be made in opening a 'school' that helps these one and dones prep for the next level...cause sending them to college is wasting everyones time

To me it's very simple.

A dominant post scorer without the passing ability to utilize the double teams and without dominant defense doesn't make a franchise player. I see offensive potential in Favors, and I see the work ethic to reach it, and I see a teammate to make the most of it. I don't see Cousins ever being a dominant (or even above average) defender in the NBA.

In College, nobody was big enough to challenge Cousins. As a defender, he could man the 5 and sit back in the zone, and not have to worry about the perimeter, neither the pick and roll or faceup bigs. The NBA is all about face-up bigs and the pick and roll, and I think Cousins struggles with both, and I don't think he has the lift to carry over his shotblocking ability to the next level. If all of that holds true, and he doesn't develop into a great passer, what good does his post scoring do?

Favors is the opposite. All of his strong points carry over. His shortcomings are correctable. His offense was already coming along and that was in a bad environment.

The NBA's a different game. Different rules, different systems, different teammates. It's not like Favors did nothing in college.

Let's play a quick game comparing two Georgia Tech freshman. Tell me which one is Favors and which one is a top 10 scorer in the NBA (adjusted to 30 mpg):
13.5 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.3 bpg, 1.1 apg, 61.1% fg%
15.3 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.1 bpg, 1.1 apg, 56% fg%

Not saying that Favors game is in any way similar to Bosh's (it's not), but looking solely at ppg production for an 18 year old freshman in a bad system really isn't indicative of his offensive ceiling.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 18:11
+/-

The NBA's a different game. Different rules, different systems, different teammates. It's not like Favors did nothing in college.

Yeah, the NCAA has to get its act together to make it easier to scout NBA prospects...they're doing a disservice and come on - 'scholar athletes' i football and basketball is just silly :)

user-pic
JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 18:04
+/-

John Wall didn't win freshman of the year from his own conference

He won't be the college player of the year

He wasn't 'impressive' enough to win those awards in one year of college.

I suppose that means evan turner should be #1 over him.

The draft history is littered with guys who 'produced' in college and had nothing in the NBA or guys who went for one year (because they had no choice) but were great in the NBA...

Judging a guy cause you saw him play 5 times and saying he'll be a bust is ridiculous

Michael Jordan was the 3rd best player on his team his freshman year.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 18:19
+/-

Yeah, I don't remember that far back :)

when yo get old the memory is the first thing to go - especially if you don't have your looks to start with :)

Seriously though - history is littered with guys who were 'bad' for a year in college or just played on a good team...

Judging a guy on 5 games is a lot like judging a guy based on the NCAA tournament - it's way too small a sample size to make any sort of conclusions.

You have more access than the rest of us

Well, I was 2 when he was a fresman, so I can't say I remember it either. I was going based off stats (which kinda makes my point on how you don't evaluate a prospect for the nba).

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 18:22
+/-

Colin Cowherd actually had a good point once when he talked about how college football is moving towards being like the NFL - and thus it makes it easier to judge 'prospects' by watching the games...whereas the NCAA hasn't moved closer to the NBA - and I think it should - yes it helps the NBA prospect mine - but it helps the underclassmen get a better idea from the 'committess' if they're ready if they play with a 'regulation' 3 point line - defensive 3 seconds - limited zones - etc....it helps everyone...especially that stupid 3 point line...

user-pic
The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 18:22
+/-

Who gives a fuk about those awards, you watch a guy like Wall play and you can't help but be impressed. Same with Turner too. Like I said I didn't claim to be an expert on the guy, and was wondering what I was missing. Thanks to Derrick and Brian for filling me in.

It's probably all for naught because I would be surprised if we have a top 5 pick.

It's all opinions anywho. We've all been wrong, many times over. You could look back on draft history and find really embarrassing projections made by Ford, Givony, and everyone else who's ever ventured out on a limb and made a prediction. I for one went on record saying I never would have taken Russell Westbrook #4 in the draft. Oops.

Actually, Westbrook's not a bad comparison to Favors. He was behind upper classmen, and provided virtually no offense in the half-court that year, playing off the ball at the 2 guard. He played 9 mpg his freshman year and averaged 12.7 ppg his sophomore year, almost all of which came in transition.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 18:30
+/-

True - all opinions - but some are more valuable than others

user-pic
The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 18:38
+/-

Your right about that.

I agree, I'm pretty satisfied why people would want Favors now. I just wanted to see people's reasoning. I do think people if not overvaluing Favors' production (it's pretty darn good), may be a undervaluing Cousins a little bit. Things like the certain fact from some he can't learn to pass the ball, while Favors can grow offensively. Why can't he learn to pass it is my thing, he certainly could. I just think Cousins could certainly grow a little bit too (He has more room to grow). But I like Favors a lot.

Interesting read here, Favors had a monster game against Cousins last year-
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Battle-In-Birmingham--DeMarcus-Cousins-vs-Derrick-Favors-3083/

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 18:33
+/-

I mean DraftExpress lists cousins as the #3 prospect on their board - so i don't think he's under rated by talent (and i ignore nbadraft.net until about a week before the draft since they constantly change purely to generate traffic in my opinion) - derek has some legitimate issues with his game but most of the issues with cousins are ones of attitude / coachability - not because of his on the court game

user-pic
The Greek on Mar 29 at 18:41
+/-

Derek what are your thoughts on Whiteside and Donatas Motiejunas ??

Whiteside's incredibly intriguing, which makes him incredibly frustrating. Shows some talent offensively. Surprisingly reliable jumper, great on offensive boards, and decent touch down low, although he struggles creating shots for himself still and is very turnover prone when doing so. Defensively he's great laterally and on the pick and roll, and obviously incredible as a weakside shotblocker. Struggles a bit denying and holding position against post scorers.

Has huge character questions as well. Apparently has an ego. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, either. His freshman year was delayed a year due to academic ineligibility, and he's been a lock to declare for quite a while because most don't expect him to be academically eligible next year.

I don't have a problem gambling on him in late lottery. Not sure I'd be interested in 7-9 as I expect better options to be available, and I do have Udoh rated higher on my board.

Moti I have no interest in. Unless he makes himself into a face-up 7 foot small forward (and I'm not sure he has the footspeed or ballhandling to do so), I think he's going to be a liability defensively and on the glass at either PF or C.

user-pic
The Greek reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:09
+/-

I appreciate your response Derek. I take it that you would take Aldrich over Whiteside then?

Aside from the top 5, and as far as bigs you have

1 udoh
2 aldrich
3 whiteside

is that correct?

*shrugs*

It's a little fluid. They all have such pluses and minuses. If you held a gun to my head to make a decision now, I would probably go:
- Aldrich
- Udoh
- Monroe
- Whiteside

But I'm not 100% sold on that. I have a lot more games from all of them (particularly Whiteside and Udoh) I want to watch, and I want to get some kind of a gauge on Whiteside and his character issues.

Like I said, hold a gun to my head that's how I go, but I'm not 100% firm in my belief yet. I need this tournament over (and the Sixers season) so I can get caught up on watching all the tape on my DVR/Synergy I have to clear off.

Aldrich is up top as much because of my comfortability with his game than a great reflection of his overall talent (although I am a fan of his defense). I'm just fairly unsure of the other 3, for varying reasons. If I can become comfortable with some aspects of the other guys that could change.

Stuff changes fast when people jump a level LOL-

"Even more impressive though was Cousins’ ability to pass the ball."

"The Alabama native's offensive game is largely based around his ability to face the basket, which can be frustrating at times. He showed off a very smooth, effortless jumper from the perimeter against South Atlanta's 2-3 zone, drilling one 3-pointer and a number of 17-19 foot jumpers."

Those are two of his major knocks (bad passer, not great face-up game) as far as I'm concerned. I guess in high school these guys just do whatever they want.

user-pic
The Greek reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 18:46
+/-

Yeah true that, case in point Lou Williams.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 18:48
+/-

Those are offensive knocks - games like that don't concern themselves much with defense :)

user-pic
The Greek on Mar 29 at 18:45
+/-
user-pic
The Greek on Mar 29 at 18:53
+/-

Jrue Holliday, fantasy bball espn post

Jrue Holiday, PG, Philadelphia 76ers: This is probably the easiest call I've made all season, as Holiday has had considerable fantasy value for about a month now. In fact, during the past 30 days, Holiday ranks 19th on our Player Rater! Holiday is averaging 13.6 points, 4.3 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.0 steals and 1.6 3-pointers since the start of March, and clearly has the look of a future do-it-all point guard. What's even more encouraging is that the biggest knock on Holiday coming into the season was his somewhat questionable shooting touch, but the kid is shooting 49 percent from the floor and 48 percent from 3-point land this month. Seems to me that he's a better shooter than we originally expected, and it looks like the Sixers found themselves a steal in last year's draft. I should also note that Holiday is the youngest player in the league, so there is plenty of room to grow from here.

user-pic
deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 18:56
+/-

Greek, we shouldn!t of drafted Jrue if you feel we shouldn!t pick Favors. Same situation, Lawal got most of the low post looks, like Collison got more times to create and as Derek stated, his guard play was not good. I would take Favors at #2, over Turner, because once Sam leaves we need a defensive big.

I think worse case he is Horford and with Iggy here I take him and get a shooter. I worry Iggy, Jrue and Turner won!t work, though I am in the minority there but defensive bigs that run like a deer are hard to come by.

My other big would be Alrich or Monroe. Udoh disappeared more than once this year and Monroe improved bigtime in consistancy and rebounded better than Udoh I believe. The thought of our 5 creating and driving from the foul line intrigues the hell out of me and in 3 years when he is 22 he may be a beast.This team needs high I.Q. players. Alrich is a safe pick who neede his post play worked on bigtime. If we draft him, get Sikma here to work with him.Somewhere between Przbilla and Reeves would be my guess.

user-pic
The Greek reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 19:06
+/-

I hear you Suede, just wish that I saw more from Favors when I was watching. If Derrick says he is a great defender and rebounder then obviously I am all ears because thats what we need.

He definitely disappeared at times.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:13
+/-

Steves! point about Aminu is intriguing. What kind of upside do you see with him and if him and Iggy are our 4/3 can the rest of the team score enough. He and Favors [possibly at the 5 like Horford] fit was this team was, running, but could Aminu be Josh Smith like?

user-pic
AaronMcKie4MVP reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 19:12
+/-

the point ive been trying to make on aldrich is he has tremendous post moves. i dont give a damn what draft express says or any other site. the guy has a cant miss jump hook, a tremendous up and under, and moves well WITH the ball under and behind the basket. he scores everytime he is fortunate to have one of those AAU jerkoffs throw him the ball in the post. no, i have not seen him play 30 games, but i dont need that many to see if a guy has skills, and im telling you he has offensive skills.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Mar 29 at 19:15
+/-

And that's your opinion.

Others (many of them) have opinions that differs from yours, I see a guy who gets winded when he plays more than 5 or so minutes in a row...who is unathletic and lumbering...and he is more likely to be a bust at #7 than any of the other names mentioned

user-pic
AaronMcKie4MVP reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 19:28
+/-

it is my opinion, but when people classify him as a 1 dimensional defender it annoys me becuase it just isnt tru. if you want to talk about conditioning, i dont agree with you, but its prbably the easiest thing to improve on. wait until he is doing 2-adays to prep for the season. as for lumbering and unathletic, im sorry you feel that way because he is white

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Mar 30 at 10:38
+/-

"It just isn't true"

Again - that's your opinion

AAU jerkoffs? Kansas had great guard play this year. His touches might have dropped because of the overall talent level on Kansas, but not because of their basketball IQ or ballhogging.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:18
+/-

For what reason does DX have Ed Davis ahead of Wes JOhnson on their board? Is that a height/tweener thing?

Don't ask me. That wouldn't be from my input. I'm not an Ed Davis fan at this point :)

Judging by how high I know Jonathan is on Johnson, I would expect that's more a reflection of what he's hearing around the league than his own prediction. I'll try to hit him up. I know he's at McDonalds AA so he might be tied up right now.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:23
+/-

Just hate seeing ed davis listed to the sixers and wes johnson underneath gives me the creeps

I would be very upset if it unfolded that way. I don't expect it will. I have a feeling when Johnson gets to individual workouts he's going top 5-6.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:27
+/-

And I think davis drops (though his injury might have been a benfit to him since now he has an excuse for no or weak work outs) i also think aldrich drops as well

user-pic
Mike P. reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 20:05
+/-

If the Sixers skipped Johnson for Davis I would throw whatever bowl of snacks angrily at the television during the draft.

Jrue is looking like a huge steal, we have to build around him. It's all down for our luck in the lottery. Oh lottery luck be with us.

user-pic
AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:30
+/-

yeah, aau jerkoffs. sheronne collins the biggest loser ive ever seen . cost them the northern iowa game.

Hey, if Kansas wins that game I sweep all the NCAA pools I'm in (I use the same bracket for every pool I join), including the DX pool with Gary Parrish. I'm upset over that game too. I don't think it quite warrants that overreaction, though.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:37
+/-

Unless maybe one had money on the game...

user-pic
AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:40
+/-

i was really angry. 15 mins left down by 10 and collins played like a loser. im sorry. firing terrible 3's 5 secs into the shot clock. chaotic driving shots into double teams... just terrible. i was really surprised he didnt get pulled. its not the misses, i can deal with missing shots. jsut terrible judgment and shot selection when they really didnt have to forcing things.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Mar 29 at 19:17
+/-

His slingshot delivery will be grabbed by guards from behind on his jumper and he only turns one way in the post, favoring his one shoulder. I like his defense, attitude and smarts but his post play, to me,is what he needs work on, just an opinion.

user-pic
AaronMcKie4MVP reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 19:34
+/-

lol, i dont particularly like that slingshot either, but a post move is a lot more than a turnaround jumper. i actually dont think i have ever seen him do a turnaround jumper. but the hook and 'patrick ewing' into the lane are both money

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Mar 29 at 19:38
+/-

I have never seen him turn to his left over his right shoulder, but don!t get me wrong, I like him and feel whatever he needs to work on he will and I believe when all is said and done he will be better than Cousins. But I love Favors.

He's actually fairly diversified.

When posting on the left block:
- Turns over left shoulder 41% of the time, shoots 46.7%
- Turns over right shoulder 42% of the time, shoots 42.3%

When posting right block:
- Turns over left shoulder 39% of the time, shoots 38.1%
- Turns over right shoulder 34% of the time, shoots 47.1%

(the rest made up of face-ups, up and unders, etc).

Now, his left hand? that's a little different. He tends to finish with his right hand often times even when going over his right shoulder, trying to force it rather than go to his weak hand. That works in college but probably isn't going to translate all that well to the NBA.

If you don't like bigs who only turn over one shoulder, don't watch Greg Monroe. Dude's got no right hand right now.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:41
+/-

Good point Derek; it seems them lefties get away with it more.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 19:42
+/-

Could it be because there are a lot less lefties so people aren't as used to seeing it?

Just saying - i'm a lefty :)

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 19:46
+/-

When coaching kids, the better defenders always were on the right side of the court for me; we never had practice time so zone defense was the way to go.Ask J.Wall, he still doesn!t know Mazzula is a lefty.

user-pic
Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 19:02
+/-

Samuel Dalembert, explaining the Sixers' two wins over playoff teams: "I know it’s going to sound silly, but the last two games, for the first time in a long time, I’ve seen us so loose. We’ve really gone out there and had confidence. People looking from the outside might think we have nothing to work for, but I definitely think we have something to work for. We want to finish the season strong and with some confidence and some pride. That’s what’s happening right now. … I wish it would’ve started earlier."

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Mar 29 at 19:05
+/-

Jason

Kapono

user-pic
JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 19:28
+/-

Derek

Does DX track their 'accuracy'

Not just in projecting who goes where based on what they hear about teams but who turns out in terms of pre draft rankings? I know it's only been a few years but just curios?

The historical rankings are kept. You can go to any page and see where he was ranked on every mock change. I don't think there's any kind of formula to signify success or anything of the sort.

I used to do that in years past, but I don't even remember the last year it was run for. The previous 2 drafts I've been busier with DX stuff than being able to record the last mock drafts the sites have put up and score them.

user-pic
JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Mar 29 at 19:34
+/-

You still got a list of those links?

I probably have a few years worth in the database, but it's not displayed. I'll try to remember when I get home from work (which would be much faster if I could stop myself from talking about basketball :) )

On Aldrich, I gotta say I think he got plenty of good touches in the post. They entered the ball inside very well:
1. From the guard spot.
2. From the high post running a high/low with the other big in the game (This was always excellent). They kind of run it like the Lakers do in the NBA, except way more dominant on that level.

I thought he did his job very well, but their A game did not coincide with him shooting a ton. They ran equal opportunity offense. Factor that in with the fact he only played 26 minutes with the Morris twins (especially Marcus, who I had the unfortunate task of playing against in high school) and Thomas Robinson getting time, he didn't have it force fed to him at all. Sort of like the way he'll be in the pros. His solid defense to me is more important than his offense.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to Rich on Mar 29 at 20:32
+/-

Don!t the names Dw. Howard and, to a lesser extent B.Lopez have to be brought up in the war room if they decide to draft big. Whenever I think of moving Iggy the first thing I think of is who guard!s Lebron and we seem to have D.Rose and J.Wall covered [Jrue]. Gortat was very robotic and stiff when drafted and look at him now, that is why Aldrich intrigues me. He seems very agile block to block but can!t step out to far but agility drills could make him a defensive beast.

user-pic
JohnEMagee on Mar 29 at 22:30
+/-

So does fred carter pop a bottle of cristal tonight or a can of really great beer - like keystone?

I've always said you have to forget team "fit" when drafting to add talent to a bad team... so now I'll ask about fit :)

I doubt the team can get a probable star at #7-#10, so we have to look at how the candidates will fit with the current players- at least the ones that we plan on keeping. So which current players on the roster complement each other, and how does that effect our choice?

The best combo we have right now IMO is:

Jrue/Iguodala/Sam

They all are disruptive defenders. And the ability of Jrue/Dala to slash and dish maximizes Sam's offensive positives and hides his weaknesses.

But do they plan on having Sam and/or Iguodala on the roster beyond next year? If not, do we now need to replace them through the draft?

This is key... because I can see them finding a PF and SG to coplemet those 3 a whole lot easier than replaceing them... and adding a SG and PF.

I guess you could build around Jrue/Thad/Speights... but IMO that wastes Jrue's defense, and puts you in a big hole when it comes to defense and rebounding.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Mar 29 at 22:48
+/-

Jrue, Iggy and defense and running the floor, although the last one is optional. A traditional walk the ball up the floor defensive team works for me if shooters are out there, tk. If Speights is thought of as our future 4 a defensive center [Aldrich] is a nice FIT.

Are you sure you want Iguodala and Jrue driving to draw defenders, and then dishing to Aldrich? Is he going to be able to finish in traffic like when they lob it to Sam? or is Aldrich going to have the same issue Brand has- in that he can't take the ball strong to the rim, and he can't make himself a good mobile target when a driver draws his defender.

I'm not saying Aldrich can't do this, more that I want someone to tell me if he can.

Maybe Derek or you can answer this, because I have not seen Aldrich enough to know how valuable can be as an offensive player when his teammate draws his defender. Is he more like Brand, in that he needs to be completely set to make a good offensive move, or is his height/size enough that he is a big target, and can cash in on those types of opportunities that playing with Iguodala/Jrue create for him.

Because IMO it is a waste to have 2 backcourt players that can get into the lane, draw a big and make the pass to create a good look for a big... and then have your starting PF and C be unable to consistently cash in. Brand already struggles in this regard. Sometimes he gets the basket, and sometimes he gets stopped. But these chances have to be bskets 100% of the time.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Mar 29 at 23:13
+/-

I could see the pick and role working where he ends up with a short jumper after setting a wide screen. He seems like a bright kid, tk., somebody you can do a lot with but he and Elton aren!t a good fit.

So moving forward, who would he fit well next to? Speights? or would we have to add a new PF?

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Mar 29 at 23:08
+/-

I think he is a good passer, above average and can be like "Big Country" in the post with work. He would throw crosscourt passes out of the post for threes at Kansas. He and Brand may not work but he and Spieghts with Elton off the bench works for me.

user-pic
eddies' heady's reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 23:19
+/-

What? Him and Speights as our main-minute guys at the 5 and 4 spots? You have to believe we would suck on levels like this year if so, no?

I just see Aldrich as a bit player on the next level. I think he will get abused and taken advantage of by the speed of the game and better competition.

I don't agree or disagree. Just have not seen nearly enough college ball this year.

But for the reasons I stated above, I'm starting to think about the benefit of extending Sam (if he takes a pay cut.) I know Sam has huge fualts, but I just think Jrue and Iguodala really bring the best out of his strengths.

Plus, Sam is such a good rebounder and on the ball defender of athletic bigs that he allows you to add a wide range of PF's next to him.

If you have:
Jrue
Iguodala
big time perimeter scorer
stretch 4 (Speights if he figures it out)
Sam

Could be a strong team. Not a coontender, but a solid foundation. Then maybe in 1-2 years you make a trade for a vet superstar (someone like an "old" Kobe) and maybe make your run?

Since we don't seem in line to add a superstar through the draft its either "tank" another year, or try and find another way- that would really depend on Jrue developing into a stud.

user-pic
eddies' heady's on Mar 29 at 22:43
+/-

Question #1 - Favors. But maybe even Udoh over him here too. I've never been a fan of where guys are 'projected' to go. If you like a guy enough and think he helps your team then you take him. In a draft with no clear cut superstar (I'm still not sold on Wall being a 'star'), you take who you feel the strongest about and don't look back.

Question #2 - Obviously Udoh, then Monroe. Davis and Patterson do nothing for me. Don't really like Aldrich and haven't seen Whiteside.

As bad as I want a shooter, I think we need to transition away from Sam's ineptness on one end and lock down his replacement picking this high this year. And get a guy who can offer up on both ends. In that regard, I think Udoh should be taken ahead of Favors. Ekpe looks as if he will command a double team regularly on the next level whereas I'm not sure Favors will.

I like Favors to a degree, but Udoh seems like a game changer on both ends - immediately and long term.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to eddies' heady's on Mar 29 at 22:55
+/-

You realize Favors is 4 years younger than Udoh? And he put up similar numbers? Think about the Ty and Jrue debate, in a few weeks of getting minutes it has become a lot closer already.

user-pic
eddies' heady's reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 23:12
+/-

I don't base my observations in any way off numbers, particularly when deciphering translation to the next level.

I've never been big on the 'age' and this 'younger' prospect thing. When taking that approach it seems like you're always 2-3 years away from being 2-3 years away (the Sixers mantra isn't it?). If a guy is good at 23, he hasn't suddenly capped out on improving his game. On the flip side, a guy at 19 that shows 'potential' may never reach that hoped for potential. That's why I've always favored taking the guy who can help you out right now regardless of age or abstract upside.

This mindset that GM's took on some years ago of taking these really young kids is what has watered down the league to me. Always taking fliers on these young athletes instead of taking readily-skilled players just a few years older.

It's just a foolhardy method to build a winner and 'true team' in a sense. These kids have never known 'team' and have no desire to learn what a 'team' is after getting paid. They feel accomplished after getting that money.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to eddies' heady's on Mar 29 at 23:24
+/-

But a 22 year old is a lot closer to a finished product than an 18 year old is and you can!t discount situations either. Udoh had better guards and had the offense ran through him a lot. Favors got his off of offensive rebounds because he played with a veteren post guy.Henry gets ripped for not putting up numbers yet J.Anderson was the focal point for his team and is still not rated as high. I like Udoh but not more than Favors.

user-pic
deepsixersuede reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 23:33
+/-

I agree with kids being to young coming into the league, but my best argument is this; Koby, Garnett, Howard, Nowitki and maybe Wall and Favors.

user-pic
eddies' heady's reply to deepsixersuede on Mar 29 at 23:50
+/-

But how can a 22 year old that's proven be closer to a finished product when an 18 year old unproven may never even pan out? Not these two but just in general.

As said above, I don't buy these 'ratings' of this guy over that guy based strictly on age. Just like the Henry/Anderson scenario you mentioned. I firmly believe it's why the league has such terrible basketball being played with way too many bad teams now. Like GM's passing over a four-year Josh Howard for a Ndudi Ebi as an example.

I like Favors as stated above but I saw all but maybe 10 of their games this year and, I know youth is a big factor here, but he was almost invisible at times. Moreso in the motor sense. And the situations do come into play with both of them but Udoh just fits the game-changer mold to me - now and for 10 more years.

Eddie... Dwight Howard at 18 was a much worse Player than Okafor at age 22.

Would you have picked Okafor that year?

Dwights as a 19 year old rookie playing starters minutes: 12pts/10reb/1.7blk/2.0TO

Okafor s a 22 year old rookie playing similar minutes: 15pts/11reb/1.7blk/1.7TO

Okafor had a great/dominant college career- 1st team All American, Final 4 MOP- was the better player and 3 years older. Okafor won Rookie of the Year in the NBA. Dwight had the "upside."

user-pic
eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Mar 30 at 0:01
+/-

Eh, I wavered that year on who I though ORL should have picked first. But truthfully, yes I would have picked Okafor.

I ask you this - would Okafor have looked/been better in a system like ORL's with multiple potent shooters around him? Just as, would Dwight have been that good if it was reversed and he was on CHA with those same squads Okafor played with?

Dwight is a dominant big. His defensive impact would be huge for any team- even more so on a Larry Brown coached squad.

offensively Dwight is just starting to learn to use his immense physical gifts.

Dwight is a poor man's Shaq much in the same way Drexler was a poor man's MJ. In that its no so bad to have the poor man's version :)

user-pic
eddies' heady's on Mar 29 at 22:52
+/-

Pick a big? OK, I'll pick a big....Big Ed...E to the S....that's my big - to get the hell out of here!

Does this guy look at others in not so bright places to take a chance on? Why does GS see a Reggie Williams and we have multiple roster spots available and swap Ivey's for Meeks'? And give up a pick while doing it...

Has the FedEx driver arrived yet for this pick-up? Or does it weigh too much for shipment?

i've been wondering for a while..what if by some miracle the sixers get the 1st overall pick. everyone is all for john wall even though we have jrue and i just don't understand why. i'm not saying wall won't be an awesome player in the nba, i'm not saying he will, but if everyone thinks evan turner is amazing too why not take turner over wall? we obviously need a sg over a pg. is it because you can see jrue and wall playing together in the back court or that you just can't pass up on a player like wall and trade jrue. with jrue, turner, and iguodala that would be an incredible defensive trio and not too bad on the offensive side either. i just don't really get why we would take wall when we have an extremely young, talented and potentially outstanding pg already.

none of this probably matters though because i highly doubt the sixers will get the first overall pick, but i'm just curios.

I'd maybe consider it if you trade down to #2 in exchange for a future unrestricted #1. But overall, Wall has a better chance of being a franchise saving player, while Turner is more likely to be "just" a great building block.

Turner is a good consolation prize, and Jrue looks to be headed to a very good NBA career. But you can't let "fit" prevent you from passing on the guy with the best chance of being a superstar... and Jrue/Wall would be a very interesting backcourt. Certainly better than AI/Stackhouse in terms of being able to complement each other. Especially as Jrue and Wall develop better jumpers.

Yeah, I mean long term I think Wall and Jrue would both need their own teams to run, but in the short term, watching Wall/Jrue/Iguodala play would be something special. Jrue's shooting would really, really have to be legit for it to work, but those three could just dominate teams no matter who you have up front. They'd be really, really fun to watch, and Jrue would probably immediately become an awesome trade chip, if it came to that.

Wall/Jrue/Iguodala/Sam would allow for some serious trapping defense. And although the backcourt is undersized and young, they all are plus rebounders and ball-hawks. Maybe even throw Thad out there as a stretch 4 and watch them get out and run.

Add Carney, Lou and a healthy/trim Speights off the bench and you have some serious thoroughbreds. maybe not big time winners, but certainly worth the price of admission and with some good trading pieces for the future.

1) Favors by a mile - I am really high on that kid and i think he would fit perfectly with Jrue and Iggy

2) Whiteside/Monroe/Motiejunas/Vesely - Every single one of these guys offers a different game and plenty of upside.

I like W. Johnson but he'll probably be gone by the time we draft...


Expand/Contract all comments

Leave a comment


back-to-story.gif