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Where Was This Against Atlanta?

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eddies' heady's on Apr 1 at 8:47
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"After this pathetic showing tonight, tell me again why they busted ass and beat MIL and ATL? Why, guys, why?"

Thought I would repost this comment I made during the OKC game thread. Because it applies here too.

Screw these guys man. I've been on their ass all year and they never cease to let me down with their phanton excuse for an actual basketball team.

I know I was derided earlier in the year for supposedly defending Eddie Jordan but this last month and a half just speaks volumes that I was on some sort of right path. I really do have sympathy for the guy now. He's never had a fighting chance with this goof troop, because they sure as hell haven't resembled a team at any point in this season.

Fractured, disjointed, selfish, misfits, low IQ's - you name it, they all fit. As much as they have quit on this staff I hope they bring them back for next year just to punish these excuses of professionals. Make them understand what it means to do something that you don't want to do or like doing, just like raising a kid. Might as well, because they've acted like a bunch of toddlers the whole freaking year.

Shop everyone except Jrue. He doesn't seem to have caught the plague yet. He just fucks up naturally because he's young. The rest? Well, they are just a bunch of fuck-ups.

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JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 10:36
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Iguodala's foot is a bigger issue than the team seems willing to admit.

But if the player feels he can go, he should go right?

It's the player's job to gauge whether he can handle the pain and play through it. It's the team's job to decide if allowing the player to suit up is worth the risk.

In this case, if they need to monitor his minutes, he's unable to practice, he can't go through his normal routines, etc. The team should shut him down. They should've probably done it two weeks ago.

From the player, though, I'd much prefer Iguodala being willing to play through it over a gutless wonder like Lou.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 11:03
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Yes Lou is a gutless wonder - you know the extend of his injury and what he is and isn't capable of - even better than he does.

It's disappointing that you're still stuck in the 'dark ages' of thinking on certain issues...next you'll be agreeing with certain and their inane 'caring' comments and 'wanting to win'

Can you explain why when I make an assumption about a player's injury I'm in the dark ages, but somehow you're enlightened when you make the exact same assumptions about a different player?

The bigger issue is that the GM and Coach are in a position where they feel winning is the only way to save their job.

If their motivations were aligned with the long term interests of the team there is no way Iguodala plays through and injury when they can instead give a player like Carney "a chance to show what he can do."

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Tom Moore on Apr 1 at 11:03
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Not to be negative, but Speights didn't score until the final minute of the third quarter with the Sixers down by 18. Everything came in garbage time. Even Jordan mentioned it when asked about Speights after the game.

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JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on Apr 1 at 11:04
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But speights showed fire, he got a technical - woo hoo

did he play defense?

Honestly, about 50% of the team's minutes this season have been garbage time. I was just glad Speights actually hit a couple jumpers. That was really the only reliable part of his game and it had abandoned him prior to last night's game.

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Tom Moore on Apr 1 at 11:11
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The only on-court positive this season is Holiday. Period.

Yep. Nothing to argue with there.

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AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 11:35
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we get what we deserve. the sixer community, as a whole, supports mediocrity. yeah, jordan stinks, but we also have a seriously broken model for building a team. trying to build a team around an awkward piece like iguodala will haunt us forever. we will spend years in the lab (fortunately we are already a few years in at this point) trying to figure out what works with a SG that cant shoot. the end result will be countless, pointless arguments over the years and absolutely no worthwhile results. yeah, lets pair a middle aged, injury prone PF (with a history of 20/10 on perennial loser) with a SG who cant shoot (but loves to try!) and call it the core of our franchise! Management caps our upside at the #4 seed in the East and we love them for it! what do we do, complain about letting andre miller walk and pray to resign sammy dalembert! LOLOLOL. yeah, these are the real issues with the team.

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JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 11:41
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How does the community support mediocrity? Is it the declining attendance year after year after the 2001 championship run - or the extra season tickets sold the past 2 seasons because a 500 team was truly exciting to fans.

It's not the 'coummunity's' fault of poor ownership - the 'community' does not have much say aside from their wallets and the sixers have one of the worst attendances in the league

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 11:53
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im just ranting. its really frusterating that we can only pray to get a 7 pick out of this. We cant even lose the right way! indiana and the knicks are breathing down our necks, and we are out there getting moral victories over milwaukee and atlanta. i dont know who we draft, but the guy better end up being really good or this franchise is screwed. can you imagine if our upside is between clarence weatherspoon and sherone wright? i will hang myself from the rafters. i cant take it anymore

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JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 11:56
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So, when you post, you're usually ranting?

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 12:08
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john, im not in the mood for your leading questions today.

i just want to know what my expectations should be over the next 5 seaons. specifically what does our probability distribution of wins look like in years 4 and 5. cmon you stat mavins, one of you must have some sort of projection on this.

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JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 13:52
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Mocking someone when asking for information is a good way to get ignored...not to mention your question is asinine and beyond projection without various impossible to predict factors...

Nothing amuses me more than people LOL'ing at something asinine they've written.

Is your point that you don't deserve what you've gotten from the Sixers because you say things like Andre Iguodala sux lolololol.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 11:54
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Well, if you think about it, maybe he makes the point that if the fans can't appreciate the quality players the sixers do have - why should the sixers bother?

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 11:55
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i wrote nothing asinine. andre miller leaving has no bearing on our future title hopes and sammy staying will only hurt them. thats all i care about , building for a title. i never said iguodala sucks. i would just never build a team around him. he is a finishing piece for me

Who are you addressing these comments at? Can you look back through the archives and find me saying one time that I thought letting Miller walk was a mistake?

Can you find one instance of anyone saying we have to re-sign Dalembert? I've seen people say they'd bring him back at a reasonable price, which no matter what you say or think is actually a smart thing to do, considering his production relative to other centers in the league.

This narrative you've written about Sixers fans is asinine. I've been doing this a while and I can't think of a single person who's said we'd be a championship-caliber team if Miller was still here, nor a single person who's lobbying to re-sign Sammy.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 12:16
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brian, dont be so defensive. i did not even imply that i was speaking of you. when have i ever tried to call you out? if i were going to do so, i would do so by name. who do you think i am , john mcgee?

when i say 'we', i am talking collectively of the 15 or so recognizable (from my perspective) posters on this blog. i dont recall specific times and places of posts but i can assure you that i have read someone venting about letting miller walk and more than 1 praising sammy. if i take the time, i can likely find the guilty party(or parties) on Sammy, but the Andre miller comments were many weeks ago at least. either way, i am not interested in presenting a formal legal argument on these matters.

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AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 12:34
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its great that sammy's stats stack up well. can you explain where in the stat line it shows the following:

1) how many of sammy's defensive rebounds would have gone to another sixer if he didnt grab it? these are called valueless rebounds

2) How many offensives & defensives he should have pulled (that he didnt) had he been in the right position ? this is called opportunity cost

contrary to waht mcgee said about me, I do not think i can see everything on the court. but i also think stats cannot be consumed in a vacuum. the two categories above are why i think sammy is not a good rebounder. i dont care what the boxscore says. i think he pulls mostly 'valueless rebounds'. based on my watching him very closely.

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JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 12:41
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1) how many of sammy's defensive rebounds would have gone to another sixer if he didnt grab it? these are called valueless rebounds

No - a rebound is a rebound - it isn't 'valueless' - Sam grabbed it - is this a stat you want to use only to talk about Sam or do you plan to use it to discount the rebound number of everyone in the league.

2) How many offensives & defensives he should have pulled (that he didnt) had he been in the right position ? this is called opportunity cost

He's a league average center - no one says he's better than that - your ranting ignores what people says

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 12:53
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1) it is valueless because regardles of whether sam gets or not, the team gets it. either way, the opponent gets no additional chance to score a basket, therefore not affecting the score in reality or in the probability - weighted world.

i would love to discount it to everyone in the league, unfortunately we will never be able to accumulate this stat. i can only imagine that if somehow we could, sam would be in the lowest quartile(centers/PFs) of % of rebounds that are quality rebounds. i am well aware that what i imagine holds no water with you. but nonetheles, i hold the key piece of truth here - that sam dalembert is not a very good rebounder. therefore, i would never be one of those GMs that pays him $10mm.


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JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 12:58
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You want Sam to look worse than he is - so you look for things to discount Sam's numbers and play - that's great - good for you - keep it up

He's a league average center

League average centers get over paid

He's no better than Tyson Chandler (or worse) and much better than Eddy Curry

Both those guys got pretty equal contracts.

Get over it already - cause the sixers have no other options and when he's gone - they'll lhave no one in the middle probably - and speights will end up starting - and boy will that be AWESOME

"No - a rebound is a rebound - it isn't 'valueless' - Sam grabbed it - is this a stat you want to use only to talk about Sam or do you plan to use it to discount the rebound number of everyone in the league."

I think that's kinda his argument. On the stat sheet, "a rebound is a rebound", all with the same weight. I do agree that not all rebounds have the same impact on team rebounding. That's why things like on-court/off-court splits were started, to try to more accurately gauge one's impact on rebounding than just the flat numbers provide.

I'm not arguing Sam's effect is less than the numbers indicate, I'm just saying I don't disagree with the general premise that some rebounds are more difficult (and more impactful) than others.

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JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Apr 1 at 14:18
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Well the point is you can only compare apples and apples - and as for on off court - i presented that later - but who cares - it just means sam grabs rebounds anyone else would so the numbers on off court don't matter that much either - i think that's how the counter argument goes?

There are literally dozens of valid arguments you can make against Sammy. Turnovers, lack of offensive game, pick-and-roll defense, goaltending, low BB IQ. Pick any one of those and you could write a dissertation on how bad he is. There is absolutely nothing negative you can say about Sam's rebounding, though. He's a dominant rebounder, statistically he's second-best in the league behind Dwight Howard, and that's pretty accurate. He gets his rebounds in a different way than a guy like Kevin Love, you uses his body and positioning instead of athleticism. Sam is kind of like Rodman, he just goes after every available board and uses his freakish athleticism to outjump guys, jump twice when other guys can't reload, etc. There's nothing wrong with Sam's rebounding game, and honestly if rebounding was all he did, and he did it at this level, he's going to help you more than he hurts you.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 13:07
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sure there is. i explained it above. i didnt even have to get into the fact that his offensives are overstated because he likely leads the league in missed putbacks that result in BS offensive boards. batting the ball like a volleyball player doesnt make a good rebounder. rebounding is the toughest statistic to value using the avaialble measures. dennis rodman is hands down the greatest rebounder to ever play this game. please dont ever mention he and sammy in the same breath.

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JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 13:11
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What you explained is a nice theory

If only you could prove any of it

Yeah, my point is that your arguments don't hold water, at all. Saying his rebounds don't count if maybe another Sixer would've gotten them is ridiculous. Are you trying to make the case that he grabs more of these boards than league average? And then saying he doesn't grab enough, when his total percentages are way, way above the norm is just silly. They're both fundamentally flawed stances to take, based on statistics or simple observation. The guy dominates the glass overall, but especially the defensive glass.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 13:42
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for someone who lives and dies by adjusted +/-, which isolates a players individual impact in a multiple regression model, im surprised you dont buy into what im saying. because its essentially the same statistical argument. im trying to isolate the value of a rebound. i just dont have the numbers to back it up. if you want to say sammy will end up average by my metric, fine. but dont criticize the idea of a valueless rebound. because it is totally sound

First of all, I don't live and die by adjusted +/-. I rarely talk about it at all, honestly. Second, I didn't say there was no such thing as a valueless rebound, though the rebounds you're talking about don't qualify by my definition, I was criticizing you because your argument seems to be that Dalembert grabs a higher-than-average percentage of what you consider valueless rebounds. There's just nothing to back that up.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 14:19
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i agree, and i stated a few times that i cannot back this up with numbers.

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JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 13:00
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PS

To all sam 'haters'

Who would be a better option that would come to Philadelphia that the sixers could sign for less money? GO

Any tall rookie. Just teach them to rebound and all your problems are solved, because Sam is useless and what he does doesn't involve any skill other than being tall.

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JohnEMagee reply to Joe on Apr 1 at 13:21
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Yeah, so you got a name, or do you have more incorrect statements to make about sam?

Where do we get this "tall rookie?"

Do you want to use our #1 pick on him (and then still not have a SG/shooter? Maybe for a guy like Whiteside who is a project with major maturity issues (and you didn't like Sam, wait until you meet Whiteside.)

Or maybe use our second round pick... that we traded away for super-meeks?

Because you can't find a starting quality center in the D-League or undrafted. And they will be over the tax, meaning no MLE signing.

As much as I wanted them to get a project center a few years ago to groom as Sam's replacement- right now they would do best to keep hiim around and try and resign him for 7M/year.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 13:41
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Well they did get a project center - Speights

He's just a failed project

Hah. And I always saw him as a PF until he started eating too much.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 15:18
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I always felt if his defense developed he could be an nba center in todays nba - even before the fatness

pretty sure this post was sarcasm.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 13:53
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Not so much sarcasm as making a point - all the 'bitching' about sam i'd like to see a 'better' option

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Rich reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 13:59
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Someone who could catch the ball would be nice. I think Sam is underappreciated because people say he sucks, but he's got plenty of problems.

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The Greek reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 15:22
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Do the research and show us your list.

Dalembert, for all his well represented faults, is one of the few players on this team that's actually done his job consistently this season. The guy pulls more rebounds per 40 mins than anyone in the league except Howard/Camby, and I'd shudder to think how many more games the Sixers would have lost this year if he wasn't in the lineup. In a team full of unreliable production night in and night out, having an elite, consistent 10 rebound guy (in only 25 mins/g) like Sam is a good thing.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to dwhite on Apr 1 at 13:48
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you fail to understand rebounding

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JohnEMagee reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 13:53
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Well when you go about changing what rebounds are 'valid' without any support to that decision, how can we understand reboudning the way you do - since you seem to be making it up as you go along?

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JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 13:55
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PS

The sixers are a better rebounding team when Sam is on the floor - you can deny it all you want with your made up ideas - but the numbers that exist indicate - on both ends of the floor - the sixers are better rebounding when sam is on the floor

http://www.82games.com/0910/09PHI14.HTM

They're also better defensively overall (but worse offensively, no big surprise)

Check out Dwight Howard's on/off rebounding splits. Interesting:

http://www.82games.com/0910/09ORL12.HTM#onoff

If we'd only gotten Gortat last summer...

Of the top 50 rebounders in the league, only four play less minutes a game than Sam. The closest to Sam's rank of 14 is Drew Gooden. Most guys in the top 10 get about 10 more mins/night than Dalembert.

Until you go and collect some data on this "valueless rebound" phenomena and apply it to some other rebounders in the league, I'm not too impressed by your understanding of how this works.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to dwhite on Apr 1 at 14:17
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whats so difficuklt about it. when you get a rebound , is it creating any value or change to the score of the game? getting a defensive board when the opposing team has retreated to the other end does absolutely nothing. you either have to prevent the opposing team from getting a 2nd opp or create a 2nd opportunity on the offensive end in order to add ANYTHING to the game. these are facts. so i would be interested in adjusting defensive boards for this. and on offensive boards, adjsuting for BS second/third/4th taps.

I meant Joe's response was sarcasm.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 14:00
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I'm willing to bet it wasn't

Nah, Joe's got a healthy appreciation for Dalembert. Check yesterday's post, he got into it a little.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 14:04
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It wasn't the topic it was the fact that he ws responding to me that makes me sure it ain't sarcasm :)

(original post was sarcastic)

Sorry. I'm a poor commenter now. I don't get back to people as quickly as I should. I apologize.

(no sarcasm in what I just said)

I just don't get how anyone is going to argue that Sam, relative to other Centers, is not well above average. We should compare players to those at their own position right?

30 starting centers, where does Sam rank. Good question:

Kendrick Perkins
Dwight Howard
David Lee
Robin Lopez
Brook Lopez
Joakim Noah
Roy Hibbert
Andrew Bogut
Javale McGee (I think he's starting)
Andrew Bynum
Marcus Camby
Andrea Bargnani
Jermaine O'Neal
Al Horford
Tim Duncan
Brendan Haywood
Spencer Hawes
Andris Biedrins
Al Jefferson
Chuck Hayes
Mehmet Okur
Nenad Krstic
Marc Gasol
Shaq/Ilgauskus
Theo Ratliff/Tyson Chandler/Nazr Mohammed
Emeka Okafor
Ben Wallace
Nene
Kaman

So who's better than Dalembert across the board?

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 19:21
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should have devoted more time to this question. i can see most of these guys id rather have than sam. ill take a crack. please keep the yelling to a minimum:

definite yes:
Dwight Howard
David Lee
Brook Lopez
Joakim Noah
Andrew Bogut
Andrew Bynum
Marcus Camby
Andrea Bargnani
Tim Duncan
Brendan Haywood
Andris Biedrins
Al Jefferson
Al Horford
Mehmet Okur
Marc Gasol
Kendrick Perkins
Emeka Okafor
Kaman
Nene
Shaq/Ilgauskus

------------
debatable
Spencer Hawes
Roy Hibbert

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NO
Jermaine O'Neal
Robin Lopez
Javale McGee (I think he's starting)
Chuck Hayes
Nenad Krstic
Theo Ratliff/Tyson Chandler/Nazr Mohammed
Ben Wallace

I stopped reading at Bargnani. Ridiculous that you actually think that.

hey brian, could we get a "we're all in this together" post? i know we're all frustrated with how this season went, but look how much bickering there is in these 50 or so comments. we all agree on so much, let's not get bogged down in petty arguments.

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JohnEMagee reply to noah on Apr 1 at 14:19
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So you think people shouldn't have different opinions and present them - everyone should think and believe the same way? That's awesome

I hear ya. The bickering is probably just a distraction from the messy situation we're all following. I'd love a topic we could all agree on, any ideas?

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 15:37
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A topic everyone agress on is boring :)

Sammy is an excellent rebounder in the league, and if that was the main focus of his game, he'd be a plus player. I think he fouls a little too much on defense and gets lost on rotations, but the second thing is not uncommon to the team. He's pretty much all there.

Offense is the problem. He needs to make himself available on offense better for alley oops and dump-offs. He needs to stop shooting jumpers, he needs to set better screens, he needs to not turn it over, he needs to catch the ball, etc. If he did all that while making his rebounding stand out, because he didn't do all of the negative things on offense, we'd have a very valuable piece. As is, he's alright. No more or less.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Rich on Apr 1 at 14:25
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thats because you are misled by the rebounding /48 min statistic. which is absolutely flawed. if you dont want to buy my arguments due to lack of evidence, thats fine , i get it. but please stop with the rebounds/48 mins stat. its jsut ridiculous.

I don't get what's flawed about it. We need the ball after a missed shot to get to offense, and Sam gets the board, that's his board. He ended the possession first, I feel that's positive. He's a center too, so his man is usually crashing the boards, therefore he needs to be boxed out.

Their team rebounding is worse when he's not on the floor too, so you could go by that. Rebounding is kind of a chance statistic anyway if you are subscribing to the fact that anyone on the team could get some rebounds. The ball could just bounce of the rim to anther guy when you have perfect position. Anyway, I think he is a very good rebounder, and a below average offensive player.

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JohnEMagee reply to Rich on Apr 1 at 15:10
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It's flawed because he hates Sam and therefore nothing that indicates Sam doesn't stink can be unflawed

There's nothing ridiculous about rebounds/48m as a stat. Nothing at all. Pretty much every stat is lacking depth. You could break down every single stat like this. Iguodala gets the ball out on a break, he could clearly dunk the ball, but instead he sets up Elton Brand for a dunk. Do those two points not count for Brand because the team would've scored them anyway? Does the assist not count for Iguodala since it didn't add any points?

This is the game, this is how it's played, how the stats are recorded and tracked. Your argument is just silly. Fine, if you want to believe all rebounds aren't created equally, great. But that's not even your argument here. Your argument here is that all rebounds aren't created equally and Dalembert pads his stats by grabbing rebounds that don't matter more than any other player in the league. It's completely based on you trying to find a way to devalue him.

A defensive rebound changes possession, it's absolutely a key component of the game. Sam grabs a ton of defensive rebounds. The team grabs a significantly higher percentage of defensive rebounds when he's on the floor than when he's on the bench. If he was simply padding his stats grabbing boards some other phantom Sixer would've grabbed anyway, that would not be the case.

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The Greek on Apr 1 at 15:28
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Rebounds per 48, that is the bullshit stat that almost got us to sign andrew declercq back in the day. Luckily he signed elsewhere and left sixers management with the case of blue balls.

It's bullshit when you're talking about a guy playing 5 minutes/game. Too small of a sample size. When you're talking about a 25 minute/game guy, it's meaningful. Especially when he's almost averaging 10/game, and the only guys averaging more/game than he is are playing 10-15 more minutes/game than he is.

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The Greek reply to Brian on Apr 1 at 15:34
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Agreed on the same size.

We wined and dined that fool Declercq.

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The Greek reply to The Greek on Apr 1 at 15:35
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Sorry meant to say sample size.

IMO the best rebounding stat is defensive rebounding percentage. This measures the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player gets.

By this measure Sam is 3rd in the NBA. He grabs 30% of available rebounds. The next closest Sixer is Speights at about 20% and Iguodala at about 17%. The rest of the Sixer bigs (Brand, Smith, Thad) range from 12% to 15%, which is horrible.

So the team as a whole cannot grab defensive rebounds. If we get rid of Sam then this problem will explode just like getting rid of Miller without a PG ready to step in killed the team. But the Sixers had Jrue, so the problem is being addressed. The Sixers don't have anyone waiting in the wings to replace what Sam brings on the D-Boards.

I'd love to replace Sam with a center who can rebound and does not have Sam's issues. But you have to look at the rest of the roster and the teams cap situation when making decisions.

IMO, the best way forward is to resign Sam for a reasonable number- like 7M/year. Creating more holes on thios roster is not helping anyone- unless our stated goal is getting a top 3 pick next year.

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Shawn reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 15:45
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My point exactly. Cannot overract to losing players - the sixers must get much worse before they can get much better. If sam gives you a deal and a shorter termed contract (which i do not think he will) then you sign him.

Otherwise, patience...unfortunately.

I'm totally fine trading away Sam for value or letting his contract expire if he wants a crazy salary. I'm just saying it will open up yet another glaring hole on this roster.

This year some of the holes were:

-PG play (future looks bright)
-Outside shooting
-Defense and rebounding at the PF position
-Depth at the C
-Coaching

Next year will will plug a few holes (Coach/PG/#1 pick) But when you start dealing away guys like Iguodala and Sam you are getting some more financial freedom, but creating more holes in the roster- meaning more years of rebuilding.

Obviously the team needs to make major roster altering moves- but they have to be smart.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 15:54
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I've always looked at it like this

Iguodala/Jrue

You need 3 guys who can be NBA starters

Your bench needs some perimeter shooting (Kapono is gone after next year) soome defense, and some guys who can rebound - all it has now is guys who can score

But yoou don't have a GM who likes to accumulate draft picks or roster flexibility.

So if you want to start fresh and build around those two you better be making some great trades, or be very patient. Because we are only adding one player through the draft this summer.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 16:01
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But yoou don't have a GM who likes to accumulate draft picks or roster flexibility.

I'm not really sure what kind of GM the sixers have with Stefanski - until this year he didn't know that his brand experiment failed for sure- so we'll see what he does this off season

If he stays I hope he redeems himself with some bold moves. Up to this point his only major move was signing Brand. All of his trades were minor. And Minor moves (kapono, Meeks) is just window dressing for this team.

The Meeks move pisses me off more and more when I see Meeks play. This guy just is not NBA caliber.

I just don't put "WG's replacement" as high on my to-do list.

Number 2 picks are not huge assets, but the Sixers have so few right now that they can't just unload them for another undersized SG who is not a pure shooter.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 16:16
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I think the worst part - from what i've read - is that meeks is just worse than willie green - a lot

I just wonder if we could have found some sore of 7ft prospect at that spot. Maybe they'd be ready to give you 20min/nt at center after a year of experience.

Do the eye test. Does it look like Sam is appropriatly blocking out his man and rebounding the ball at the highest point of the ball's arc?

As for the future of Sam, I do not think he likes the sixers, and will want to leave in the worst way. I also believe he has some value in the open market and is a potential trade piece next year - along with his expiring deal. It will not be easy to replace his rebounding, but that does not mean the Sixers should go wild and sign him to an inflated contract just to fill a need. (READ: ELTON BRAND LOW POST "PRESENCE"). His rebounding will be missed, but must be built organically through youth, or sign a free agent with a not so disgusting contract. If the Sixers are smart, pick up players like a Scola or an Ibaka, its a start in the right direction. It may not completley make up for it, but building a team is not about plugging in holes of a sinking ship.

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JohnEMagee reply to Shawn on Apr 1 at 15:47
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Do the eye test. Does it look like Sam is appropriatly blocking out his man and rebounding the ball at the highest point of the ball's arc?

I love the eye test - it's awesome - aside from the fact that the eye is connected to the brain and all the preconceptions one has while watching it.

The eye test is this convenient term people use when they can't support their argument with anything more solid...

My eye tells me that Sam grabs contested rebounds in traffic.

Who else on the roster does this? It may not be a unique tool, but on the Sixers it is an overall weakness.

Same analogy to Miller and his PG skills. Miller is not a unique talent at PG, and financially had to go. But losing him unmasked a big problem on the roster. Luckily Holiday is working out. I don't see a similar replacement for Sam- and the GM should have addressed this 2 years ago and gotten a guy like De'Andre Jordan or some other 7" athlete project.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 15:58
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If the eye test is all you have to support your argument - it's a weak out (and you know it) there's a ton of other ways to argue that sam is a good rebounder :)

The other two guys who grab contested rebounds are Iguodala and Jrue. It's good that they board, but bad that no one else on the roster does.

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Duracorr reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 19:13
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Didn't they draft a 7 foot center 2 years ago? Jason Smith turned out to not be good enough, but they did draft him.

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JohnEMagee reply to Duracorr on Apr 1 at 19:17
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Did anyone ever expect Jason Smith to be a defensive force?

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Duracorr reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 19:20
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I don't know what was expected, but they did draft a center - a 7 foot center. He did block some shots his first year. I wonder if what we see now with Smith is all there is or if he is still somewhat affected by his injury last year?

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JohnEMagee reply to Duracorr on Apr 1 at 19:33
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I never thought he'd be more than some sort of weak perimeter offensive guy who was too slow laterally and unathletic to be a dfensive stallwort - not sure what other people thought

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Shawn reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 16:01
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real shocker that you were ready for that one. Instead of filling up the comment section with snide remarks that benefit nobody but your overinflated ego, stick to basketball - it's what you're good at.

I actually agree with you, unfortunately, that he is a top flight rebounder. Tons of stats agree with you. My point was in reference to aaronmckie's comments that Sam's rebounds are "value-less". The eye-test will help mckie understand the difference between value-less defensive rebounds and the ones that Sam has a higher capability of getting than a comparable center - basically what contributes to him at a very high clip of gathering boards as a percent of total available rebounds.

To be fair, your post was not clear :)

It came across like saying sam was not a good rebounder because he does not box out. In the NBA boxing out is not how great rebounders get it done. I doubt Howard boxes out as much as he out-muscles and out-jumps guys.

To clarify, Boxing out is important for smaller players and fundamental defense. It has its place, but is not the key determinant of who is a good NBA rebounder.

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Shawn reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 16:10
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He does an average job of positioning, but he excels at getting way up to get the ball, and has suprisingly good hands.

He's a very "quick" jumper. I'm not sure how you measure this. Its sort of like eye hand co-ordination in that its how quickly you can go from seeing a balls trajectory to actually jumping up and getting yourself to the ball.

Camby is the best at this. Rodman was the best ever in this regard.

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Rich reply to Shawn on Apr 1 at 16:58
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As fat as grabbing boards, he has good hands. Not catching the ball in traffic he doesn't :)

He is good at catching alley oops. once he gets the ball he makes poor decisions.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 17:19
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he needs to learn not to take 19 foot jumpers

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johnrosz on Apr 1 at 17:54
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When Jordans contract is terminated, does that mean he loses his dental coverage as well?

LOL u gave me a good laugh at the end of a bunch of pretty annoying comments, thanks

I should focus more on Brian's posts and skip some comments...

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Ricky - Sixers4guidos on Apr 1 at 19:02
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yeah some pretty annoying comments that turned a

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Ricky - Sixers4guidos on Apr 1 at 19:04
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pretty annoying comments that turned what would have been a pretty tame conversation into 100+ posts.

don't worry it wasn't meant to you, you always give good contribution to the conversation

btw I like your nickname :-)

Brian I am with you on Sam's rebounding but I think the Rodman comparison is off target

Rodman was getting the large majority of his rebounds below the rim because of his extraordinary boxing out skills, while Sam is taller and perhaps a better leaper, and gets a lot of them at higher... heights.

I'd say more like Rodman = Oakley

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Duracorr on Apr 1 at 19:17
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What is Sam's trade value? Could we get a 1st round pick for him?

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JohnEMagee reply to Duracorr on Apr 1 at 19:19
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He's an expiring contract next season - but with a trade kicker still (15%) - and the perception is that he's grossly over paid, which has been the meme for 5 years or so...he could probably get yo ua fairly protected first round pick in the future...

Problem is that the sixers will probably be making a move before the trade deadline in 2010/2011 to get under the luxury tax line and many teams they talk to would know that's the motivation...so the sixers don't have ideal bargaining power

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deepsixersuede on Apr 1 at 19:26
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Brian, tk and I were discussing the other night how Aldrich works with Iggy and Jrue. My question is; what are the 5 to 10 most important things needed from our future center if Iggy and Jrue are our p.g. and s.f.? I know your not a Monroe fan but he would bring a lot of intangibles to the position that we haven!t had in a while. A high post passer,outside shot[ in practice at Georgetown he is said to hit from beyond the 3pt line], high I.Q., good rebounder and mobility. When does what a guy does for your offense make up for the defensive end of the floor.

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JohnEMagee reply to deepsixersuede on Apr 1 at 19:38
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When does what a guy does for your offense make up for the defensive end of the floor.

Look at Mo Speights - no defense - great offense - what does he have to improve for you to amek up for no defense.

For me - a 'center' is supposed to play defense first and foremost - if he has no defensive game he's useless in terms of building a title winning team

which is why guys like erick dampier stay in the league cause they can bring some defense

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deepsixersuede reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 19:43
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But I am not saying no defense, if Monroe is worse at one thing than Sam it is shot blocking but man on man he may be as good and positionally also.What I am asking is if we acquire a guy that is average defensively but real good offensively does that work here.

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JohnEMagee reply to deepsixersuede on Apr 1 at 19:51
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If he's as good as sam man on man (which i don't think sam is very good at actually - low basketball iq) and rebounding than I could live with slighlty less shot blocking if he has better offensive game too

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deepsixersuede reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 20:04
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It just seems so long since we had a wide body screening and moving to the right spots on the floor and posting up and being a threat down low. With Spieghts our possible future 4/5 I hope we don!t draft another defensive project just because he can block a shot.

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deepsixersuede reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 20:05
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It just seems so long since we had a wide body screening and moving to the right spots on the floor and posting up and being a threat down low. With Spieghts our possible future 4/5 I hope we don!t draft another defensive project just because he can block a shot.

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JohnEMagee reply to deepsixersuede on Apr 1 at 20:38
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I don't believe Speights is anything more than a future bench player when you need points - and nothing else

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Duracorr reply to JohnEMagee on Apr 1 at 20:24
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Sam is actually pretty good in man-to-man defense and rebounding. I'm not going to go back into the rebounding thing, but he handles the big centers as well as anyone in post defense. I agree that it is pointless to bring in a center who is not at least as good as Sammy in that regard. That is crucial.

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AaronMcKie4MVP on Apr 1 at 19:27
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in response to brians question above, i picked 20 guys id rather have in the middle than sammy. see above (this board has gotten a little messy with all the repiles)

in summary you guys convinced me, a rebound is a rebound. and this 'boring' topic only provided a ridiculous amount of conversation and posts. sorry, ill try to keep my questions focused on willie green from now on

I was really hoping Green would have one of his "Willie Green has got it going on" games last night.

Plant the seed ion Larry Brown's wonderful mind that Green could be his next retread vet through trade or convincing him to opt out :)

What are the chances that Alabi declares and available early in the 2nd round? because he seems like the type of Sam replacement/back-up I'd like to see them use their (deceased) 2nd rounder on.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/solomon-alabi

Funnies part: NBA comparison: Samuel Dalembert.

Or would he not slip that far?

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 22:12
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he'd never slip that far as valuable as height is around the league....just draft Udoh at 7 or 8 and there's Sam's replacement...and an adequate one at that.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 1 at 22:43
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DX projects him at 17

besides - sixers don't have a second round pick - don't need one - got Jodie Meeks

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eddies' heady's on Apr 1 at 22:14
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What a shame some potentially good conversation today gets ruined by a sniper. John Malvo lives!


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