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Time To Move Forward

JohnEMagee on Apr 16 at 12:55

Comparing the sixers to the 2006/07 celtics and the moves they made is weak at best

1. Andre Iguodala isn't paul pierce (at the time) he's not the scorer or perceived superstar pierce was
2. The sixers do not have al jefferson or anyone close to it that they can part with, the best 'option' they have to trade right now is probably speights because he's only been in the league two years, but I doubt anyone sees him of the jefferson level
3. Which two downtrodden teams are looking to 'rebuild' quickly and trade their high priced 'super stars'?

Any theory based on the 2006/2007 celtics and then looking at the sixers roster is flawed in my opinion - it's like trying to build a championship roster without superstars because the pistons pulled it off one year.

The exception is not the rule

Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitzki
Tim Duncan

They were all obtained the same way

That's a pretty funny list you came up with.

LeBron - 0 championships
Kobe - #13 pick, didn't win anything until they traded for Shaq, then didn't win anything until they traded for Gasol (using expiring contracts both times)
Dwight Howard - 0 championships
Dirk - #9 pick, 0 championships

I mean, if you're making the point that you have to completely suck to get a superstar and that's how you win, then the Spurs are really your only supporting evidence here with Tim Duncan. The Sixers will have a higher pick this season than was used to draft both Dirk and Kobe.

My point in comparing the Sixers and the 07 Celts is that both teams had talent, expiring deals and a high lottery pick. I said very clearly that I don't think they should follow the same path Boston did, but they do have options.

JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 13:05

Gee Brian, that was my point exactly - how did you guess

Or it could have been - those are the top 4 players on the top 4 seeds going into this years playoffs - and look how they were obtained...

Again, you want to point at Pau Gasol - that's agreat - a desperate franchise got taken advantage of cause they were looking to save money.

Sorry - but the sixers are more likely to be the franchise taken advantage of then taking advantage - that's just how i see it - to even bring up the 2006/07 celtics at all is as genuine as using those larry brown coached pistons to try and argue you doonn't need a superstar to win a title.

I admire your optimism but think you ignore that most of the sixers trade assets to improve are one dimensional pieces of crap that can't defend their way out of a paper bag or have trade value so low you'd have to practically give them away - and take back another troubled underperforming player - not a super star at the height of his game.

Not sure how Duncan got in there if that's the point you're trying to make. Top four teams in the playoffs this year, then. LeBron, #1 pick. Dwight Howard, #1 pick. Dirk, #9 pick. Kobe, #13 pick. That prove you have to suck and get a top-three pick how?

one dimensional pieces of crap that can't defend their way out of a paper bag

Al Jefferson, anyone?

Nowhere did I say any of those young pieces were going to get you a superstar, far from it. What I did say is that if someone is looking to dump salary, we've got roughly $25M in expiring contracts. If you don't think that's an asset, fine.

And I'm not sure what being overly optimistic has to do with what I would do with this team going forward. Do you have an alternative plan? Or do you just feel like sitting on the sidelines and shitting on everything anyone else says today?

Not to beat a dead horse, but the other main difference was cap space. Szerbiak had a big contract (11M) but not as restrictive as Brand's.

JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 16 at 13:59

Dude we've got green and kapono expiring this year - it's golden

The Celts didn't use any kind of cap space in their deals. They shipped out expiring contracts and young players only. Wally went to Seattle, Theo went to Minny along w/ Jefferson, Delonte West, Gomes, Telfair, draft rights to Jeff Green.

I've been reading this blog for a while now and the end of the EJ era has prompted me to get up and start contributing.

Brian, with the current roster plus our likely #7 pick and a coach that knows the concept of defense what do you feel is our potential? If it is going back to what we were the previous 2 years then to be honest I am really not interested. Stefanski kept on saying yesterday that this team underachieved, but isnt't just possible that in the previous 2 years we overachieved? I'm starting to believe that 40-45 wins is the best we can hope for with this plan

With that being said what do I think is the best course of action to get better? Honestly, I think Igoudala and Jrue could be 2nd and 3rd options on a championship caliber team. But without a legit #1 (which is almost always a superstar) I don't see the 76ers getting even to a conference final. Under the current CBA getting a superstar to come via free agency is harder than getting one in the draft so I guess my plan would be to keep hoping for the lottery until we get one, even though this would waste Igoudala's prime and maybe stunt Jrue's growth.

Unfortunately, I agree with you for the most part.

With the right pick/moves/coaching this roster can make it all the way to 45-50 wins in 2-3 years. But without a real upgrade in overall talent (and a superstar) they are not going to be a legit contender. Short of a superstar through this draft, their 3-4 year upside lies somewhere between this years Bucks and Hawks (probably closer to the Bucks.)

And if the team can only get that far in the next 3 years, you might have to start and wonder if Iguodala will be part of the solution. the guy plays a ton of minutes. He could be in his prime well into his early 30's, but I can just as well see him fall of the cliff at 29 if he has any type of injury. I remember some stat about players who had a certain amount of mega minutes prior to age 26 tend to have less longevity.

Brian, you are right about Sam being a key decision point. If he walks for cap space next year they will have a similar drop off to when Miller walked. They have no replacement on the roster, and Brand is not defending/rebounding to the level where he can offset a poor defensive C.

If your plan is to keep getting high picks until one of them hits, then you're going to have to move out Iguodala for nothing or hire a coach as bad as Eddie Jordan was. Otherwise, this team bounces back in some way next season regardless of who they draft.

I don't want to just get rid of him for nothing becuase this season was painful and I would only be able to tolerate a bad team if there was some kind of hope for the future. I guess my main gripe is that I look at this team and I really don't see a realistic plan where the 76ers are a top 4 team anytime soon. The really sad part is I don't think the front office does either which would leave us as at best a 6-8 seed every year and getting bounced from the playoffs in the first round.

Dutch reply to Chodeburger on Apr 16 at 14:25

Personally, with a decent coach and a few moves, I think we can be competitive in the East (Competitive = chance at 50 wins; nothing less than the second round of the playoffs).

We need:

1) A new coach... and that's obviously in the works.

2) A starter-quality draft pick. Will the seventh pick net one? If not, should we try to trade up into the top three (assuming we don't luck out in the lottery)? Perhaps.

Note: 2010-2011 starting five probably includes Jrue, Iggy, Brand, and Sammy, unless we get Favors. If that's the case, Brand probably winds up as sixth man and we need a second new starter (probably at shooting guard, obtained through some sort of fortunate trade).

3) Trade Lou for a missing part. I'd do this without question. Lou probably has the most value of all our bench players and his awful, awful defense has no place on the Sixers moving forward.

4) If necessary, trade Speights for a missing part.

This leaves us with:

1) Jrue,
2) Iggy,
3) Brand,
4) Sammy,
5) 1st round draft pick,
6) Thad
7) Player(s) obtained from Lou trade, and
8) Either Speights or player(s) obtained from Speights trade.

A decent coach should be able to work with that.

I guess I would need to see where Lebron, Wade, Bosh, and Joe Johnson end up before I give the sixers 50 wins with that core. Even still I don't think as fans we should be satisfied with second round of the playoffs.

Hate to do this but one last look at the faces of our memorably bad coach!


Good post Brian. I do think we are a little different than the Celtics were, but I can see most of the comparisons. I think what made them real successful was the fact that Rondo turned out so good. They basically went in that season with an unknown at PG. They kept him because they thought he had a chance to be good, but he turned out great. In my opinion, Speights (maybe Thad) is the only guy who can still turn into an impact guy (starter). It doesn't matter though because I don't want to go that route and the Celtics are screwed for a few years now. A couple points-

1. Let's say we get one the guys I really would want (Top 3 or Wes Johnson). That gives three cornerstones, which is good. I think the way to go would be to try and trade two of the potential contributors to flop for a need starter. I think those guys can get you back a decent player who could be labeled a contributor. That would mean four solid starters with probably EB as the weakness. If we could get Favors, then EB wouldn't have to start and Sammy would be the 5th guy.

2. I think if EB is involved, we can still try and run (not crazy about how it will turn out), they really need to be more of a DEFEND and then run if you can, but we need to defend first and foremost. EB has proved that he can still score on anyone in the league, so he will never hurt you offensively.

3. Do you think we could get something legitimate for Sam at the deadline next year? A lot of teams may be willing to give something back desirable for him. When he's good, he's a contributor. If we are defending to run, why should it matter how talented the offensive lineup? He fits a big need as the rebounder.

4. I actually can't believe they finished 2nd in fast break points this year. They didn't do it as effectively or the way I want it. This draft is huge because I think they need a four who can rebound and run, or a wing who can defend and run. Basically I want Favors, Turner, or Johnson. Obviously you take Wall if you get there, but those guys really fit.

New cap projections are $56.1M.

Don't have the time to do the math now, but that number would put the Sixers very close to under the lux tax threshold.

Wow, that is great news.

"luxury tax threshold, which is now estimated to be $68 million next season -- down only slightly $69.9 million this season."

That means they can sign their #1 pick and barely be over the tax.

FYI Pick 1: nearly 5M
Pick 2-3: 4-4.5M
Pick 6-7: 3M

Those numbers are high:

#1: $4.28M
#2: $3.84M
#3: $3.44M
#4: $3.10M
#5: $2.81M
#6: $2.55M

Here's the link.

I think my #'s are more accurate. I used the 1st year salaries from last years lottery picks (you cite 2005/6.) Next year's will only go down a small fraction.

That link is the NBPA's site, but the numbers don't mesh w/ the first-year salaries from last year's draft. Hmmn. Damned unions.

Love the plan, especially the identity aspect. That is where this team must begin, with solidifying who they are as a team, what they can depend on every night.

This team, as currently constructed, has a 45-50 win ceiling. If they get a lynch pin that fits perfectly(i.e. Favors, Cousins or Johnson), then that ceiling raises, depending on how that Lynch pin/cornerstone develops.

The identity is key

So you are comparing our team to a team that had to trade basically everyone for one of the best players in the league during his final good season and one of the best shooters in league history to be good?

If our team was the Celtics we'd have someone who could actually take over a game and score more then 20 points on his best day. Iggy is our Al Jefferson piece, not a Paul Pierce.

Don't get all Ed Stephanski here and act like we are close to contending for a title. We are nowhere near that. I don't want to "compete" in the East AKA be at .500 and lose int he 1st round of the playoffs while the teams in the west are playing the real basketball.

I want to be like Orlando or Cleveland with their teams built around a true superstar. Until we get that superstar our team isn't going to contend in anyway. The 00's were a depressing decade of 1st round/2nd round exits and like 1 team that got over 50 wins.

Depending on who we get in the draft, it looks like we'll still be stuck on that train to mediocrityville.

I was reading Bob Cooney's coach suggestions in the Daily News and wanted to rip up the paper. All old has beens aside from Casey and Larry Brown, who is just old.

We need to get that Turner guy and see if we can move Iggy to someone for more picks/cap space. Everyone else but Jrue should be shopped as well. I'm tired of have mediocrity be the peak of our teams and would accept a couple of crappy years of growing pains for a new young team.

One, it's Stefanski, not Stephanski. He may be gone in a week but we can at least spell his name right while he's still here.

Two, I didn't say we were exactly like the 07 Celts, I said we're in a similar situation. Meaning talent on the roster, high lottery pick, ton of expiring contracts. Paul Pierce was also 30 and coming off an injury-plagued season whereas Iguodala is 26, but whatever.

Three, if you want to absolutely suck for a couple more years until we get a "superstar" that's fine. That's a plan, probably no more or less valid than my plan. I don't agree with it, but fine, that's a direction and there's a long term view. The only thing I don't want is short term thinking.

Either build slowly on the base you have right now or blow it all to hell and completely start over, but don't make stupid moves to get veterans and squeeze every last win out of the roster next season.

John reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 15:39

Except that they don't have as much talent on this roster (or do you think the sixers have an all jefferson like piece you'd be willing to part with)

They don't have 'tons' of expiring contracts unless you count sam which creates a hole you need to fill and has that dumb ass trade kicker.

The trade kicker is pretty much meaningless at this point. $1.25 million right now, and decreasing every day.

And if we're talking about moving Dalembert as an expiring for an asset, then the assumption would be that the asset you're getting will fill a hole better than Sammy did and possibly give you other assets in the form of picks or young players in return.

Odds are, you're going to have to fill the hole Sam's departure creates either way. I think you missed my point in this post entirely. I'm not saying you're going to be able to build a complete roster this season, not even close.

What I'm saying is that you have assets to continue to build toward something in the future, if you can define what that ideal you're building toward is. Meaning, your draft pick could/should add one more piece to the puzzle. Your expiring contracts may add another. Then your pick next year. Then maybe the MLE. Then maybe Brand's expiring contract.

The key is to set the plan now and stick to it, using whatever assets you have at your disposal to always move closer to the goal, never going for a quick fix.

What do you think has a better chance of winning a chamionship? Blowing it all to hell or building slowly with what we have? Sadly I would have to go with blowing it up.

Also how do you think upcoming lockout/new CBA should factor into these strategies? Wouldn't blowing it up potentially set us up better for the new CBA?

It's an extremely long shot either way you go, unfortunately. The likelihood of either panning out is very low. I think it's more palatable to go the build route than the tear everything down route.

I don't think anyone has any idea how the potential lockout is going to affect the league. Could be a get-out-of-jail free card on the Brand contract. Could mean any long term money on your books completely screws you. Could mean very little change.

Yea a get out-of-jail free card on Brand would probably be a real silver lining on a bad situation. I've read other places (ESPN, SI) that a NHL-style hard cap that contracts will only be gauranteed for the first 3-4 years. Don't know how likely this is to happen but that seems to be what the owners are going to be pushing for among other things.

Also it's a sad state of affairs that this franchise which was once considered one of the NBA's elite is counting on two long shot scenarios to be relevant again.

It's not just the Sixers, it's about 20-25 teams in the league, to be honest with you.

Good point. I love NBA basketball but there is something fundamentally wrong with it when 60-75% of the teams can go into a season with no shot to win a championship. I understand baseball is somewhat like this but at least most teams have some hope on opening day (unless your a pirate or royal). Football and hockey are a lot more wide open.

I think they have zero shot at making the Finals in the next 3 years.

At that point Iguodala will be 29 and at his player option. Brand will be expired (only figuratively), and Sam will be 31 and likely playing elsewhere.

My current state of mind (which is as changeable as the wind):

1. If you draft Favors, Cousins or Johnson the keep Iguodala.
2. If you draft Turner then maybe keep Iguodala, but be open to moving him in the next year.
3. if you draft Wall keep everyone but be open to a complete roster overhaul to build around him, assuming he becomes a superstar.

**4. If you draft anyone else (Emanu, Aldrich, Monroe, etc) the I would push hard to get a good value trade of Iguodala this summer, while there are a large number of teams with major cap space.

I would not "dump" Iguodala like some wanted to this past deadline. But I would strongly look to flip him for talent/picks. 26 is young. But I really think this team could be mediocre for quite a long time unless something exceptional happens.

TK, I have to agree with you. If this team is ready to contend in 3 years (which is the earliest in my opinion) what kind of Igoudala are we going to have? Will what makes him a good player (explosiveness, getting to the rim) still be there when he is 29? If the opportunity comes along this summer to turn Igoudala into valuable assets (draft picks, young players, expiring contracts) I think the 76ers should consider moving him.

I agree with 1 through 3, and I may even agree with #4, depending on what type of return you're talking about.

For example, if the Clippers lose out in the free agency hunt, which they most likely will, they could really use Iguodala. If you can work some kind of deal like Eric Gordon, DeAndre Jordan and a pick for Iguodala or Iguodala and Lou Williams, that's something you consider.

I said that no one is off limits, it's just a matter of adding pieces that fit in any kind of trade so you keep the ball moving forward. Gordon and Jordan have the potential to be pieces to the puzzle and it frees up money.

Moves like that you obviously consider. Blindly saying "we need to get rid of Iguodala" is silly, IMO.

Agree. I would actually hate to trade away Iguodala, because it opens up another huge hole, and confirms that all hope is lost...

But realistically, we might have to start thinking way down the road (A.B.-after Brand) in terms of our rebuilding, and have to be open to what is best for the team long term.

Mike P. reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 16:21

Thing is, we really have only ONE piece that can be dealt for any value. There really is only one player to blow up so to speak.

Here is a question for you Brian, What, if anything, would you be willing to trade Iguodala for?

No one is going to take Brand or Sammie, and the rest of our pieces won't get us anything.

Say we got the fifth overall pick and Minnie got the 3rd. Would you be willing to trade Iggy for that 3rd pick if we could get Favors to put next to Jrue? Then we could take a C or Wingman like Udoh, Aldrich, or Johnson to pair with Favors/Jrue in this fantasy situation.

And I will spell names however I feel like. Maybe if he didn't suck as a GM I'd take the time to type out his name properly.

That trade isn't possible under the cap, but say it was, would I trade Iguodala for Favors if we could still keep the #6 pick? Yeah, I'd definitely consider that. I'm really high on Favors, really high, he'd be much cheaper, allowing for serious cap room after next season. But it's not possible.

As for trade value, Brand has zero. Dalembert has value this season as an expiring contract who can actually help a team on the floor. Actually, he's probably one of the most desirable expiring contracts in the league.

Mike P. reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 16:29

Would you be in favor of dealing Iggy AND Sammie for Favors and Johnson? Or basically getting rid of all the players for whatever in order to sign both of those high picks. It doesn't even have to be Sammie.

I would be all about that. Just have Brand be the highest paid sixth man in history.

It's not even worth discussing. None of this works under the CBA.

Mike P. reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 16:43

But everything works in fantasy land!

Also, making a trade like that Clippers one below is what I'd like to do. Not just give the guy away. The Iggy trade deadline stuff was hype because of the rumors that we might be able to get rid of Brand too. That would have been phenomenal. Of course only in fantasy land. :*(

JohnEMagee on Apr 16 at 15:55

I think tk has a point about Iguodala - he has value around the league and this off season you'll probably have more teams able to trade for him than ever before.

PS - on that salary cap adjustment if accurate

Willie Green + 3 million dollars cash (so he costs under a million bucks) to any team with cap space willing to take him on should get the tax out of the way

I've stated before that I always go into a season hoping the Sixers put a good product on the floor. If they hire a defense-oriented coach (I'm pro-Larry Brown, I know many others here are not) who plays to the offensive strengths of the roster, the 10-11 Sixers could be very much like the 98-99 Sixers. Whether they make the playoffs or not, the key, as Brian notes, will be to acquire and develop assets.

As I've noted before, the "perennial lottery" strategy requires a lot of luck and a lot of patience. Not only do you have to get a high pick, but you have to pick the right player in the right year. We can think back to the Sixers' own sordid history in the mid-90's, when they played the lottery for 7 straight years:
1992: #9, Clarence Weatherspoon (decent pick for the draft slot but very little depth in this draft)
1993: #2, Shawn Bradley (huge bust)
1994: #6, Sharone Wright (bust, got traded and injured)
1995: #3, Jerry Stackhouse (decent career, helped the Sixers to get McKie/Ratliff)
1996: #1, Allen Iverson (franchise player)
1997: #2, Keith Van Horn (one pick after Duncan, traded for Tim Thomas, who eventually netted Tyrone Hill)
1998: #8, Larry Hughes (picked ahead of Nowitzki/Pierce, eventually traded for Kukoc)

During that 7-year stretch, the Sixers actually had good luck (getting into the top 3 four times), but they either picked the wrong player (Bradley) or picked in the wrong year (Van Horn). The #2 pick in 1992 (Mourning) or 1994 (Kidd) would have been much better. The dropoff between #1 and #2 in 1997 was perhaps the biggest in history. In any case, with continuing good luck, they eventually accumulated enough assets to build a team in Larry Brown's mold, and they did damage in 98-99 and 99-00 (winning playoff series both years) before making a serious run in 00-01.

The key question is when do you start "going for it" by trading prospects for veterans, as the Sixers did starting in 97-98? One could argue that is what the Sixers tried to do in the summer of 2008 with the signing of Brand (and keeping Miller), but the moves turned out to be the wrong ones. But I don't agree (especially without the benefit of hindsight) that the *philosophy* of going for it was the wrong one ...

eddies' heady's on Apr 16 at 16:12

It has to be blown up. This team isn't going to get a good enough piece with the draft pick this year to become a legitimate contender along with Iguodala still being here. In other words, as polarizing as it is, he has to go. I mean, he is your only piece to move that has any significant value around the league. He's the only legitimate shot that you have to create options to make you better. To me, it is crucial that whoever the GM is uses him, whether that be using him to free up the money his contract is now or using him as your only valued piece to get back player(s) or pick(s).

To keep trying to build around him while still saddled with the price of that contract is going to turn out to be fools gold. As Kate so eloquently stated (and I argued ad nauseum earlier this year on here) in her piece yesterday, he isn't going to lead you to anything close to a championship - because he isn't a leader (but being paid like one).

I value defense very highly. But, to me, defense doesn't win championships. Defense keeps you in games; offense and scoring more than your opponent is what wins them. And it's pretty much like that for all sports. As good as Iverson was he couldn't ever lead us to that cherished pinnacle and Iguodala maybe comes close to holding half his jock on that end of the floor. Add in his contract/salary on top of that and the recipe doesn't end up tasting so good.

Spit it out, blow it up, the sooner the better.

Defense doesn't win. You have to trade Iguodala.

Pretty much the two dumbest quotes I've heard in a long time. In fact, I think you might be Eddie Jordan at this point.

Mike P. reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 16:26

Defense helps win, but a shaky jumper isn't going to get us anything.

Neither will all those clanked threes.

He is right about one thing though, Iggy is our ONLY piece. What is done with him dictates what direction the franchise is looking toward.

I am in the "lets start all over camp" Jrue is basically what Iggy is now without the contract. A very nice building block for us to build with, especially with PG being one of the harder positions to get a reliable starter in. But he still has the potential being so young to become something special like a backwards FG shooting rondo.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 16:27

Brilliant! Hope you got your childish giggles in. So you took the position of shitting on others thoughts then huh?

I'm sorry but the "I don't care about defense, I want PPG" argument is asinine, and frankly beneath you.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 16:43

Come on man. Don't put words into my mouth or change around what I actually said. How is the first sentence of my last paragraph turned into 'I don't care about defense'? I prefaced it with I value it highly.

Look, it's like this: If you have an ace of a pitching staff from top to bottom it does you no good if you can't even scratch a run across. If you have an all world defense in football, it gets you a tie at nil if your offense can't cross the 50 yard line to attempt even a field goal. You can have the best goalie in soccer and hockey, but if you have no one to put it in the net then you end up in a tie and have to go to penalty kicks where offense wins it again (or you either end up with the tie). Defense, once again, is just keeping you in the game but not actually winning it. And this continues on across the spectrum of all sports.

I didn't say defense doesn't win, I said it doesn't win championships, meaning it helps to get you there but doesn't put you over the top. Defense just keeps you in the game, the offense is what actually wins it for you.

You just used a lot of words to say the exact same nonsense. Name the last championship team that wasn't top-ten in defensive efficiency. I'll help you out, it's happened once in about the past 20 years.

Now tell how many championship teams have won it without being in the top-ten in offensive efficiency.

Defense wins championships. Always has, always will.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 17:04

You're resorting to stats. They have nothing to do with the logic that if you can't even score one point, one goal, then you can't win whats called the game. The defense will keep you in it giving you the CHANCE to win, but the offense and scoring ACTUALLY win it.

And you're ignoring stats and making stupid statements. OK, I'll agree with your argument, since Andre Iguodala obviously can't score one basket and the best his teams can hope for is a 0-0 tie.

Stop skirting the issue, you don't like Iguodala, you want him gone. It doesn't matter what he does on the floor. It doesn't matter that he typically out-scores more talented offensive players on the other team because his defense is superb, you just don't like him.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 17:24

Disagree, different perspective = stupid.

OK, seems like the typical offseason refrain around here considering last offseason was much of the same.

You may know basketball but now you're going to suddenly be in my head and know my thoughts and feelings? Please, you ain't that good. What hyperbole you seem to spew.

I love the guy's game but as I have to state infinity it appears, his game along with his contract doesn't add up to being a top-tier winner. Not in this league with these ramifications. Make sure you refer back to this day and comment when, if he stays, it was stated that as long as Dre is on this team it will never, ever reach a conference finals and be lucky to reach a second round series.

I would bet that you were all up in arms just the same when it was rumored that Iverson was possibly going to be shipped out of town. And if you were, wouldn't you now agree that it was the best thing at the time, maybe even a year or two too late?

This franchise isn't going anywhere with this guy and as much as I respect his all around game, the sooner they use him to make the team better and start on another path, the better they will be. Holding onto the string of hope that water will be turnt into wine building around this guy (and the money he was given) is just putting off the inevitable. Just like it was with Iverson.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 22:08

"Now tell how many championship teams have won it without being in the top-ten in offensive efficiency."

Well I guess I'll play your game and answer your question while referring to the stats. In just the last 10 years there has only been one team to win it without being a top 10 offensive team. And 5 of those 10 teams were in the top 5 in offense, with 7 of them being in the top 10.

That's right, the one is the very Detroit Pistons model that you and Stefanski seem to be cut from the same cloth on.

So now dismiss that offense doesn't ultimately win you championships.

Why was Iverson not good enough though to take us to a championship if you want scoring though? He was one of the best scorers (Shaq was probably the only one better) in the world for a few years there.

Defense took Boston to a championship. It took San Antonio to every one of theirs. It took Detroit to theirs. Defense can win championships, in fact it often does.

eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Apr 16 at 17:01

I didn't say I wanted scoring directly. Go back and look at what I said. I said Dre couldn't hold Iverson's jock on that end of the floor AND added the caveat in the next sentence of add his salary/contract of top of that. That was the key - his salary coupled with his value along with his lack of on that end.

Why was Iverson not good enough to get us there? Because size that can score is way more potent than non-size that can score. You know that, come on.

JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 16 at 16:31

That's insulting

To Eddie Jordan

We finally won at something!

Sixers win coin flip with Pistons.

Really, really good news, actually. At #6 there's a very good chance one of the top five guys drops to us.

With the people drafting ahead of us? Yeah, I'd say so.

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