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Feelings On Lou

I'd listen to all offers. Above his matador defense and chucking, it's his 'superstar' attitude I loathe. But he is the best in the team at getting to the line and he can put up a bunch of points at a time.

His contract is bad, though.

I think the roster has to be turned over a bit. Lou would be one of those players I'd make available. His lack of defensive effort has probably diminished his value around the league. If they can't get decent value(late first rounder and/or role player with value OR Maybe that veteran with leadership qualities?) then he'd be my combo guard off the bench for 18-24 minutes a game. I think Lou would play defense if the coach rewarded him with minutes for it.

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sfw reply to sfw on Apr 19 at 9:16
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I'd make all the players available but I'd make a concerted effort to move Lou.

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Tom Moore on Apr 19 at 9:14
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I'm concerned because Williams has yet to show much effort at the defensive end, regardless who the coach is or how much he plays. He gets beaten off the dribble moreso than the much slower Andre Miller, which shouldn't happen.

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sfw reply to Tom Moore on Apr 19 at 9:18
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Tom, Seems to me that Lou wants and thinks he deserves minutes. No 'D' effort , no minutes.

I'm not nearly as down on Lou as most. He brings certain skills that no one else on the roster has in terms of coming in off the bench and single handedly upping the pace, scoring and drawing fouls. The team does not have other players who put pressure on the defense like he does.

Now if you ask him to be your strarting PG and display a solid floor game and defense then you will be disappointed... but that should not be his bench role. But if you team him off the bench with some good shooters and athletes he can be positive piece for 20 min a game and maybe be a change of pace piece alongside the starters 5-10 min some nights.

I would not mind if he was part of a bigger trade that brings back talent, but I think dumping him just for cap relief or because you don't like him as a pure pg is short sighted- and not all that different than people who want to dump Iguodala just because he is not a pure scorer.

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Apr 19 at 9:57
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I somewhat agree on what Lou can bring in situational settings. But chemistry/cohesion and blown-up egos don't often go hand in hand.

For the record, Lou has publicly endorsed Jrue as the starting PG and his use in scoring combo guard role. It is just up to a good coach to utilize him properly.

Its sort of like when we complain when Willie was starting all those games at SG. It was not Willie's choice to be the team's starter, and he was certainly not paid as one.

Lou brings a lot more to the table than Willie ever has or ever will, and their contracts really aren't that much different, considering when they were signed.

That's my point. Green is paid like an 8th man. Lou like a 6th man.

If they were used properly there would not be so many complaints, because both could fill their roles well.

Yeah, I see Green as more of a 10th man, to be honest. 10th man on a d-league roster.

I was a big Lou supporter last year. Given that, I still believe he has alot of potential. I do not believe we should trade him but give him 1 more year under a 'REAL' coach.

If he does not pick up his defense, then I would consider trading him but not dumping him.

I feel it is a low blow to Lou to compare him to Willie. They are no way similar other than their title.

I believe Lou could become a JR Smith given the right motivation and could be a game changer.

Lou will never be the shooter Smith is, but they can both put up points in a hurry.

To be fair... no one compared Lou to Willie.

I said both players draw the fans ire because they are used incorrectly and neither is paid like a starter. No one compared their games.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 19 at 11:05
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I compare em - I find them redundant instances of the same kind of player (and throw meeks in there too) - offense and nothing else - sixers have too many of those

By the way, if last night's Portland/Phoenix game is an example of what "stretch fours" mean to the game, I'll take a shrink four, please.

Aldridge, 40 minutes, 8/20 from the floor (22 points), 1 defensive rebound

Amare, 35 minutes, 8/19 from the floor (18 points), 2 defensive rebounds, plus he fouled out.

I really, really hate Aldridge's game, if you didn't know that already. But even Elton Brand is laughing at those defensive rebounding numbers.

Anyone think Stefanski is on the phone with Okur's agent today?

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JohnEMagee on Apr 19 at 10:47
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Lou is an awesome bench player when you need points, he's better at it than Willie Green, but having both of them on the team is redundant, given a choice, I'd prefer the sixers keep lou because mostly I just hate Willie Green's game, it's pathetic that he ever got a long term NBA contract. Lou probably has more on the court trade value, Willie off the court.

It's funny, but think back to the end of the season when we were trying to lose games. How did you feel when Lou got off the bench in the 3rd or 4th quarter of a tight game? And how did you feel when Willie came in?

Personally, I breathed a sigh of relief when Willie stepped on the floor, when Lou came on I thought to myself, "Uh, oh. He could really get hot and turn this game around."

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 19 at 10:52
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I honestly wasn't paying that close attention for the last 15 games or so - focused on other things to keep my interest in basketball in general - still working on tweaking that team stats database so i can do individual stats next season.


I always feel that lou has a better chance of 'shooting' the sixers back into a game than willie.

Lou might not be a point but he has SOME court vision, some instinct to pass and some ability to draw fouls.

They're both defensive liabilities

Willie is one of the few players on this team who can hit a jumper from 15-20 feet. The problem is he takes way too many of them.

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 19 at 11:26
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He maybe have been best on the team but he was not 'great' when you look at the rest of the league

Jrue was better, but probably in a small sample size kind of way

http://hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx

Green was better than 79% of the league. He was fairly efficient from midrange.

And Jrue was not better. According to HoopData, Willie shot 46% and Jrue 36%. According to Synergy, Willie shot 44% (better than 79% of league), and Jrue 36.4% (better than 34% of league). The difference between the two is that hoopdata uses 16-23 feet for midrange whereas Synergy uses 17-23 feet.

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JohnEMagee reply to Derek Bodner on Apr 19 at 11:43
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and sadly with my insomnia - i was looking at 10-15 feet - sorry about that

Personally, I feel like the long two is the worst shot you should come out of a half-court set with. It's typically a low-percentage conversion without the added benefit of the three (an extra point) or an attempt closer to the hoop (possibility of getting fouled). It's the shot defenses want you to take, and it's also a shot you can get at any time in the shot clock. You don't get extra credit for me for being better at making the least-valuable shot on the floor, and it costs you points if hitting that shot (at less than 50%) is your only tangible skill.

For some perspective, an Iguodala three-point attempt (.93 points/shot) was worth more points than a Willie Green long two-point attempt (.92 points/shot) this past season.

Is that including fouls ? Or just the increased value of a 3 ?

My hunch would be you would be (slightly) more likely to be fouled on midrange and pull up J's than there would be no three point attempts.

I value efficiency and the ABILITY to hit midrange and pull up shots. Just not the 23 footer. The ability to come off a screen (which typically isn't a shot you can hit at three point range) can really help movement in an offense. The ability to fake a three, get a guy to go past, take two steps in and hit a pull up jumper can cause a player to be slower on his closing out. the ability to hit a pull up jumper can open up driving lanes.

It's a good skillset to have, and I don't think straight points per field goal attempt does its overall impact justice. but I agree with you that a 23 foot jump shot is the worst shot in the game.

Yeah. I may hate setting for 20 foot jumpers... but i like a player who has a nice midrange game. That is one area that really limits Iguodala's effectiveness in the half court as opposed to a guy like Evan Turner.

I'd assume the foul rate on long twos vs. threes is probably marginal, but now, I didn't include fouls, just pure efg translated into points.

I see what you're saying, there are nuanced wrinkles that the mid-range game opens (although I'm not really sure 16-23 is what I consider midrange, but that's semantics), but honestly, that's a huge win for the defense if my shooter is chased off a three-point attempt and takes an open 20-footer. I don't want to run plays for catch-and-shoot 20-footers and if you're forcing the guard into a 20-foot jumper on a high screen and roll, again, the defense has done it's job.

I think it's a valuable skill to be able to beat your man off the dribble and convert from somewhere just short of the hoop, Turner was really good at this from what I saw, like a 10-12 foot baby jumper (this is really what I'm talking about when I say mid-range, not shots outside of say, 18 feet or so). That sucks the bigs out from under the hoop and opens up lobs and dunks for bigs, but that's a different animal altogether from long two-point jump shots.

I'd agree with Brian. I class the midrange area as that 10-18 ft range, where the player's shooting efficiency is solid. A steady diet of 20-22 footers is not good offense.

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JohnEMagee on Apr 19 at 11:11
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Or pass or play defense or draw fouls

Holy crap, check out how many long twos (16-23 feet) Caron Butler has attempted per game over his career. That's insane. Jordan must've absolutely loved him. For the record, the long two is the worst shot in the game.

My gut feeling is that Lou's defensive liabilities mainly became glaringly obvious because of Eddie Jordan's defensive scheme (or lack thereof). With a better system, Lou's deficiencies could be covered up (although not ideal), and his scoring ability would be a net plus. I remember thinking Lou was a lot better last year than this year, and I think it's because Jordan's system made everyone look like trash.

If it were up to me the 3 point shot would be moved back another 3 feet in both college and the NBA.

The baseline three is stupid. No way you should be rewarded 3 points for such a short jumper. And the 3pt line as a whole discourages a midrange game.

I do not enjoy watching a team like the Magic that only shoot dunks or 3's. It is sound strategy, but that should not be what basketball boils down to.

I don't mind watching guys drive and kick to open shooters... but the 3 ball has hurt the game.

I'm seriously just tired of watching that god-awful looking line drive jumper.....his next swish will be his first.....i like him off the bench like 'the mircrowave'...that is all.

It's worth noting that in the final stats at 82games.com, Lou was one of three Sixers with a positive PER differential this year (Iguodala and Dalembert were the other two). Part of that was because Lou was usually given the easier defensive assignment when he was on the floor, but part of it was that Lou's efficient offensive production often offset his poor defense. He led the team's regulars in TS% and assist-to-turnover ratio. While it is true, as Brian noted, that he rarely creates for others, he has shown the ability to do it if so inclined. In fact, it was his playmaking vs. Memphis that blew that game open in the 4th quarter (not that winning that game was a good thing).

In the end, I agree with tk76: I wouldn't want Lou as a starter, but he's an asset off the bench. I thought he had a key role in the 07-08 and 08-09 teams as a 2nd/4th quarter scorer, an excellent change-of-pace off the bench (kind of like a fast tailback in the NFL who comes in for a between-the-tackles starter).

One more random note -- Lou did an exceptional job on Chris Paul in one of the games against the Hornets. If he played defense like that all the time, he'd warrant starter minutes. However, that kind of defense has been rarely seen in his career, part of the frustration that we all have with him.

Lou's defense and ability to avoid screens improved incrementally this year.

Of course that is like saying Speights improved his defense... its kind of hard to notice when you are still lousy.

Overall, I would be happy to make the right trade that sends away guys like Lou, Speights, Sam...

But keep in mind that they do fill roles that will require them to use assets to replace them. So sending them away simply to dump salary or avoid the tax is short sighted.

Willie, Kapono and Smith can all be moved and not missed, IMO, if you're talking about clearing salary only.

Agree.

Thad is an interesting case. His 7.5M cap hold next summer could really effect whether they have any cap space (Only 3.5M of cap space with the cap hold.)

Lou's a tough guy to crack. I personally hate a ton of things he does on the floor. Two biggies- 1. Defensive Effort and IQ- We get that you don't care but at least be smart about at it. If any of the two of us ran a P and R with Lou guarding the ball-handler, we could get a good shot. He stuck to the screener like velcro and just stayed there, hung up, instead of getting under. 2. His decision making on the break. Enough said there.

The other thing is that while I like his scoring, doesn't it seem like it's a little too much "me" when he's bringing a team back in the forth quarter. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that he doesn't, I just feel that doesn't hold for a very consistent bench. Giving the ball to a small scorer (who doesn't defend) when he's off makes for bad bench play a lot of nights and guys who aren't used to scoring become put in unusual roles. Just something to think about. I don't dislike Lou as your 6th or 7th man, but I would definitely listen to offers.

When I think about Lou
It makes me so blue
I don't know what to do
Maybe hit him with a shoe?

Lou has it goin' on
Somewhat better than Willie
Not much else to say

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JohnEMagee reply to tk76 on Apr 19 at 14:19
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i can't do haikus on 3 hours of sleep

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johnrosz on Apr 19 at 14:41
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Lou Williams is that kind of player that grew up idolizing Allen Iverson. I love AI, but he inspired an entire generation of point guards to play terrible basketball. It worked for Allen becuase of his tremendous talent, but players like Lou are just not gonna cut it on a winning squad. No place for the poor (homeless?) mans AI for me, I'd trade him for any kind of decent return.

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JohnEMagee reply to johnrosz on Apr 19 at 14:44
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at least he's cheaper than monta ellis

He gets to the line more than Monta, doesn't turn the ball over as much, and shoots better from distance as well.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 19 at 14:50
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So, Lou Williams is better than Monta Ellis?

And as I udnerstand it Monta Ellis is a superstar

So ergo lou is really a super duper star?

Give Lou 40 minutes/game on GSW and he'd probably average more points and score them more efficiently than Monta. And GSW would continue to be horrible.

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JohnEMagee reply to Brian on Apr 19 at 15:01
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Yeah, but how funny is it that there are so many bad GMs in the nba?

Not that different from MJ inspiring an entire generation of off-guards to play a certain way.

The bigger problem is that AI is fiercely unique in so many ways and he might arguably be the one of the most gifted athletes ever to play in the NBA. Ergo, damn near impossible to replicate(closest thing is DWade, imo). Its like watching fat people trying to play like Shaq.


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