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The Odd Man Out

smh1980 on May 20 at 2:56


Stefanski was speaking with Howard Eskin yesterday about Thad. He seems to think that Thad is a tweener at the 3/4. I would prefer he doesn't play much 4 but that is how the sixers are still viewing him. It sounded like they were going to keep Thad and they expect a big year from him.

His trade value really isn't going to be very high after last year. I remember when Delio was talking about Thad at the end of the 08-09 season and said how valuable he was to their late success that year and needed him healthy to have any chance in the playoffs. I also remember how the Magic called out his number at the end of game 2 or 3 and Turkeluv showed how poor a defender he really was.

I can only imagine that under a poor coach and lack of defined role that he buckled. I expect a big jump from him this year but I don't know where he will get his minutes. Not a good situation for him here.

paul reply to smh1980 on May 20 at 12:26

I think Thad is the odd man out, but I still think he should have pretty good value in a trade for the following reasons:

1) Unlike a draft pick, he's already proven he's not going to be a bust and can be a significant contributor. On most teams where he receives significant minutes (say at least 25/game), he's almost a lock to be a double figure scorer (he has shown that he can score pretty efficiently). So, there's less risk with him than with the average mid-first rounder. Remember that Rodney Carney was a mid-first rounder (#16) and he hasn't had Thad's career to this point.

2) His salary for next year is just under 3 million. That is only about double the first year salry of a mid-first rounder rookie contract and not expensive by NBA standards for a guy who averaged 13.8 in 32 minutes a game last year and 15.3 in 34 minutes a game the year before.

So, I think that Thad is worth a mid-first round pick. With a mid first round pick, the Sixers might be able to get a decent back up defensive center (say Larry Sanders or someone similar). Minnesota has five draft choices including #16. I think Thad would be a better starter for them than Corey Brewer.

I think Thad is a bench player but could be a good one that plays 20 minutes a night. He might have been the person most affected by Jordan as 1. A poor outside shooter that thrives on simple basketball in the P.O. and 2. A poor defender/rebounder in the P.U. (Jordan's defense). So we can't be completely discouraged by this year, but we can be worried. Here is what we need to look for this year though:

1. Can a guy like Collins get him to the point where he can think the game through defensively at the three? Basically, get him to not be a total disaster as he was in rotations running like crazy to nobody (maybe Jordan's fault but who knows). He's gotta man up better too. He's a good enough athlete where he shouldn't be a minus man-to-man defender.

2. Can he adjust his offensive game to the bench? He actually has the game to be an effective bench scorer. Herky-jerky, crafty, tricky, whatever you want to call it, it's more suited to a limited role than a 36 minute per night guy. That ship has sailed because he can't shoot it like one of those guys do.

In the end, Brian hit the nail on the head, he's not a very complete player. Tailoring his game to the bench, where he doesn't have to be one, will be key if they take Turner. I really hope he doesn't start at the 4 either, because it's not really viable for the franchise going forward for him to play 4. Hopefully Collins (or whoever) gets that.

I think Thad was by far the most affected player by Jordan's coaching. Somewhere between adapting to the P.O., trying too hard to fit in, learning the asinine defensive rotations, and the constantly fluctuating role he got (PF, SF, bench forward...) he simply got lost in the shuffle. Which leads me to the assumption that he is up for a breakout year especially considering that he will basically be in a contract year.

The problem of course is finding playing time. With Turner and Igoudala set at SG and SF, and Brands contract demanding playing time at PF, Thad is in trouble if no roster changes are made.

Now, while i'm as intrigued as any of you at the thought of having Jrue/Turner/Igoudala as the perimeter trio (especially defensively) i don't think it is necessary the best for the team.

Igoudala and Lou (possibly Dalambert) are probably the only guys that are close to their optimal trade value. Thad on the other hand is at an all time low. Add that to the apparent man-crush Stefanski has for Thad i think Igoudalas' days with the club might be coming to an end. I am NOT pro trading Igoudala but have a gut feeling that it will happen nonetheless. Everything Ed.S. has said so far points to that direction.

Considering their comments and reactions, Stefanski and Kahn must be talking about a Jefferson for Igoudala swap of some kind don't you think?

If I see Iggy getting traded and Thad starting at 3 all year I'll kill my cat.

Thad should never be seen as a starter.If he accepts a low contract,keep him.He'll be a decent bench player.If he doesn't,trade for someone who can actually shoot 3 or a defensive big.

JohnEMagee reply to Levent on May 20 at 9:55

NO reason to take it out on the cat, the cat did nothing wrong

McD reply to Levent on May 20 at 12:41

LOL... that's hysterical, dude.

I feel we have to surround our future best player [Turner] with people that don!t need the ball, can catch and shoot, and defend. Meeks may work but Lou and Thad to me should be moved if close to equal value can be gotten.I think Thad can be good in a wide open system like G.St. if he gets regular minutes but he is a luxury now and should be used to get a need. [M.Bonner?]

I didn!t realize Bonner was that old and I forgot about Kapono. If Thad and Lou can get the team cap space and a future pick or two, than let Kapono and Meeks get their minutes this year and go from there.

The GM is giving every indication that Thad is a favorite of his. He states that he was confused on 'O' & 'D' last year(as was the coach). I agree with X. Last night Ed was again on WIP and gave no cudo's to Iggy but was pumping Thad for this coming year. I think Iggy is on the market, bigtime. I only hope we get equal value in return. Not sure about Jefferson But adding Jefferson and the 16 pick in the draft, plus for Iggy? A front court rotation of Jefferson, Brand & Sammy?

I'm not necessarily in the camp of trading Iquodala but getting Jefferson and the 16th pick seems like a deal I'd be happy with.

Just for the record, if we get Jefferson for Iguodala, and plan on starting Thad at the three in Iguodala's absence, we've got at least two horrible defensive players in our starting lineup. Those two guys aren't even passable at those positions on the defensive end right now. I'd rather have Amare than Jefferson on the defensive end.

In theory yes Thad and Jefferson will present a major defensive problem. However, i was never on the opinion that the defense of a team is equal to the sum of its parts. Which means the right system and mentoring can make these guys at least passable defenders. This is especially true in Thads' case IMO. This is where Collins comes in the equation. I would list Ray Allen and Tom Thibaudaux as the perfect example of this.

I am not saying this is what i like, but it is something worth considering.

You know, looking closer at Jefferson's numbers, he's just not worth it. 52.4% TS% from a low-post big man is just very, very poor. His defensive rebounding is decent, but with the piss poor defense, he's not going to take this team anywhere. Using 14.8 shots to score 17.1 ppg isn't enough to justify his defense.

Iguodala was more efficient, and effective offensively last season, in what was really his worst season on that side of the ball, in a bad system. That doesn't even take into account his contributions on the defensive end. He also makes a little bit less money than Jefferson (though he has a player option for an extra year on his contract).

Brand at the four, Iguodala at the three with Thad coming off the bench is leaps and bounds ahead of Jefferson at the four, Thad at the three and the #16 pick coming off the bench.

Jefferson wasn't really that much better than Brand last season. His only significant edge was on the defensive glass.

I get your point, but can you find Jeffersons' numbers from the 2008/2009 season? Jefferson to me was in a similar position Thad was in this season which lead to terrible results. The triangle offense was completely unsuitable for a guy like Jefferson. As far as i remember he had close to an allstar season back then.

What i found was the following: His TS% was a mediocre 53.2%, but his PER was up to 23.1 that season (last season he was at 19).

PER is really a garbage stat. Basically if you take a ton of shots and shoot above 40%, you're going to have an impressive PER.

All Star in that he scored points. But his efficiency has pretty much always been crap for the type of player he is. Iguodala has blown him away every year they've been in the league.

Charlie Ace reply to Brian on May 20 at 17:51

Right - Jefferson's been this golden boy and Iguodala is always talked about as a guy "who's not a #1." Nobody ever says what he IS. (You do.) I'm in Mass and the Celtics fans had Jefferson in the HoF. I still can't believe McHale didn't pull the deal off the table when Ainge said he would not include Rondo. (Would he have passed on a chance for Garnett? Maybe.) As always happens, they didn't get value for a superstar - maybe it's just not possible, but if they had gotten back Rondo& Jefferson it would have been a fairly even deal.

Anyway, your case for not having a Thad/Turner/Jefferson lineup is pretty convincing. It would be just awful defensively, I don't think you can make the sum of those parts better than the weak parts. Jefferson has zero lateral movement (which I think is Thad's problem, by the way, that & EJ's ridiculous defenses) - but forget that negative stuff. You can have a defense of Iguodala, Turner, & Holiday with at least 2 very good defensive front court guys - why wouldn't you want that? For the 16th pick and a borderline All-Star who plays no D? But no worries, Collins would never go for that - he's going to want to build from the defense up, because he's smart & knows the league.

F the 16th pick, we (probably) have Turner. If we can get it for Thad, fine, but we don't need extra #1 picks right now, do we? Don't laugh, but with a new coach, Jason Smith & Speights are almost like having midlevel first rounders, because they have to be evaluated. And Carney could be a useful piece - he's a really good defender.

Paul reply to Brian on May 20 at 12:37

Living in Minnesota, I've watched Jefferson a fair amount. I wish he weren't playing for the Timberwolves and, since the Sixers have been my favorite team for many years, I wish even less for him to play for the Sixers. In addition to the stats you bring up, he does not seem to have the type of disposition that's very good for team comaraderie.

Maybe the GM is pumping up Thad to build up his trade value?

sfw reply to Brian on May 20 at 10:39

That hasn't seemed to be his MO but maybe he's gained wisdom through his failures.

Well, his MO is to only trade peripheral players. Korver, Carney, Booth and Evans are the only guys he's traded since he got here, right?

Plus Ivey & Primoz, but that just proves your point

Yup, good call.

The kid suffered not only from Having EJ as his head coach, but by also having that selfish prick Lou Williams as his point guard.

I know that Iggy is a better overall player then Thad, But I would love to see what Thad could do playing with Jrue and Turner.

Brian, how well do you think Iggy will be able to cope with being the 3rd ball handler on the team?

He'll be fine. This isn't a guy who takes 20 shots/night, and he really isn't a guy who forces his offensive game, if anything the lead scorer role was forced on him. 12 shots/game, more catch and shoot threes, less 20-footers off the dribble, some work in the post (which I believe Collins will emphasize). He'll be fine in that complementary role, and I also think we'll see more of the defensive rebound-instant fast break from him this season, which is really our best offense.

JohnEMagee reply to Brian on May 20 at 10:51

But he's an egotistical ball hogging ass who wants the team to be all about him - can't you tell by his shoes?

jkay reply to JohnEMagee on May 20 at 11:29

Iguodala himself has issues with humility.
but I definitely agree with Brian that this 'franchise go-to-guy take the last shot' was forced upon him. Even before he signed his mega deal, it looked like they were already 'encouraging' him to tweak his game and take more shots.
Right after the Korver trade, you could see it. Andre Miller leaving even made it more glaring. Its a shame he gets bad rep for it; he's been a real boy scout in the sense of what they want him to do.
They even try to sell the 'fills up a stat sheet-makes his teammates better' thing as his linchpin when they found out he aint that guy. To me he's a victim of marketing and promotion.

JohnEMagee reply to jkay on May 20 at 11:37

Iguodala himself has issues with humility.

So people who hate him keep saying

Charlie Ace reply to jkay on May 20 at 18:00

I don't know about that. Iguodala's a good guy. Sometimes, it's just a case of a player being disgusted and with good reason. I remember Randall Cunningham getting flak for complaining about how Buddy Ryan put the offense together or something - nobody ever mentioned that he was right! You shouldn't do it publicly, I know, but everybody's human. Was Andre supposed to smile and be happy all season with what was going on? If he acted that way, people would have jumped all over him for not caring. You can't win, especially with Phila fans.

I like the idea that Thad plays as a strecht-4 besides good rebounders like Turner, Iggy, Sammy and Jrue.

Thad is never going to be a fill up the stat sheet type of player like Iggy. However, before the Jordan fiasco and Ayers 'teaching' no one was labeling Thad as being so useless. He was seen as an up and comer until maybe the last few games of the Magic series. His shooting was definitely improving.

They should try to get his trade value back at least. I think he can fix his game with a good coach. He is a very good athlete and should be able to defend man to man at this level. Whoever the new coach is (Collins?) should tell him to stick to his man and forget about switching.

I think he could be a Granger lite with the right coaching (scores efficiently and a good % from 3, doesn't do much else, OK defender). Then we could get some value from him either as a role player for the Sixers or as trade bait for another team.

sfw reply to Chris on May 20 at 9:18

Chris, Granger seems to be a pretty good comparison. I think they are seeing him spotting up for the 3 pt shot off the penetration of Jrue and Turner.

Charlie Ace reply to Chris on May 20 at 18:02

Good points.

Could you guys see Thad as a Jerry Stackhouse type player? off the bench

PolishPower on May 20 at 9:27

At this point, I would prefer Thad at the 4, rather then the three. Turner and Dala can both play the 2 or 3, and having shooters come in to sub for those two (Meeks and Kapono) spreads the floor, and alters matchups more then Thad at the 3.
And if Thad spent an offseason working on getting stronger, I wonder if he could play the 4 for 20 mpg effectively. That, and if a coach would teach him to box out, and tell him to stop leaking out for transition baskets when he should be defensive rebounding

Tom Moore reply to PolishPower on May 20 at 10:04

At least some members of Sixers management see Young as more of a 4. But he doesn't rebound or defend well enough to handle big power forwards.

JohnEMagee reply to Tom Moore on May 20 at 12:07

He doesn't rebound or defend well enough to START in the NBA at 3 or 4 yet

he polishguy -- I totally agree. Thad was pretty effective 2 years ago as a smallish 4, and he's only gained size and strength since then. He has great scoring skills close to the basket. Better coaching could improve his defensive and rebounding technique, and his physical maturation combined with strength training can improve his ability to hold his ground. I think all this talk about Turner misses the point about Thad -- he can help the team at the 4.

Charlie Ace reply to PolishPower on May 20 at 18:04

Yes. Stackhouse couldn't shoot until his 4th or 5th season - when Collins starting coaching him. Hmmmmm.....

Statman on May 20 at 9:29

I tend to give Thad more of a pass for his offensive regression this past year than his defensive regression. Like Iguodala, Thad is more effective when playing aggressively on offense, and he really struggled in the passive, jump-shot-seeking offense employed for most of the year.

But his opponent PER numbers (as seen on 82games.com) were horrendous this past year, and not all of that can be attributed to the crazy defensive system. At SF, he went from +2.5 PER in 08-09 (including a well-above-average 13.0 defensive rating) to a Kapono-like -6.9 in 09-10 (for the record, Kapono was -7.6 PER at SF -- not much worse than Thad). Included in that was a shockingly poor 19.4 opponent PER at SF, which is the easiest position at which to obtain a good opponent PER (by comparison, Iguodala was at 15.9, Carney 17.4, Kapono 18.0 at SF). Most disturbing was that other teams seemed to realize that any SF with a handle could drive right around Thad, so he often got the isolation treatment when guarding SFs.

All this to say -- there's a reason why Thad plays a lot of his minutes at the 4. His inability to stay in front of his man is not going to change for the better if he's playing at the 3 alongside Turner instead of Iguodala. Trading Iguodala and installing Thad as the starting SF only makes sense from a monetary standpoint, and that argument becomes weaker once Thad qualifies for his extension.

One last word about Iguodala and Turner co-existing ... I think the Boston-Cleveland series showed that having a second or third playmaker on offense is never a bad thing. Throughout the series, I was thinking that LeBron would have loved to have Iguodala to pass it to instead of Moon/Parker/Gibson/etc, who were lost once they had to put the ball on the floor. I also don't think Iguodala will have a problem sublimating his game to Turner's; publicly at least, Iguodala had no problems with that when Iverson returned this past year. If anything, the coach will need to remind Iguodala not to play passively when he's off the ball.

Tom Ziller has the Sixers taking Favors.

JohnEMagee reply to Brian on May 20 at 10:52

Well at least it ain't wes johnson (doug gottleib should be fired for that mock draft)

If ES allows the team to take Favors, he should be fired immediately. And I am not one of the fire ES fans.

But, from all I heard from him on the radio and TV, I do not see that happening.

Yeah, I don't think it's a crazy idea to take Favors over Turner. I don't think it's likely, but an argument can be made. I've made it, in fact.

PolishPower on May 20 at 10:20

Funny thing to me about all the folks who say Dala and Turner cannot co-exits offensively...
Would anyone agree that Turner's mid-range game might be a bit reminiscent of, say Andre Miller.
Except that I think Turner has more range, and can get to the rim better then Miller.
Miller and Dala had no issues co-existing on offense.
Add to that Jrue, who is the outside shooter that was missing when Miller and Dala were together...
Well, I think we might have something.

yes he is similar to Miller in that he takes only high percentage shots within the arc.

paul reply to jkay on May 20 at 12:43

I'm an Andre Miller fan, but watching Turner in the Big Ten games, I'd say he is considerably quicker and more athletic than Miller. He is an outstanding rebounder for his size, drives inside very quickly, and finishes well there. Granted the Big Ten isn't the NBA.

I'm really interested to see how Brand plays next season. Maybe this is too much wishful thinking, but maybe part of the problem last season was conditioning, since he had barely played the previous two seasons?

dwhite reply to ojr107 on May 20 at 12:37

I think Brand could definitely benefit from better conditioning next season. Watching some videos of him with the Clippers not too long ago and he was noticeably slimmer and more muscular. I know he's getting old at this point but dropping a few pounds and getting back in top shape will only benefit his lift/rebounding/running the floor weaknesses that have been showing.

Trading Igoudala only makes sense to me if we can get another top 5 pick in return to get Favors or Cousins. Outside of that I am not really interested in trading him for someone like Al Jefferson who seems to be a younger version of Brand (cant stay healthy, no defense).

This is a huge year for Thad though. Even though I don't think he is going to get a ton of minutes at either the 3 or 4 he needs to make the most of the minutes he gets and at least show he can be a productive player off the bench because that is probably where he will be most effective this point on.

as much as we want something to happen, that doesnt make it true. PO screwed Thad up real good last year. but the fundamentals do not disappear. Thad is a starter only on a team like the Warriors that runs and ignores defense.
we may end up letting him walk.

jkay reply to jkay on May 20 at 11:48


This is where Stefanski remaining as GM worries me. I'm not sure he'll let Thad walk, even if it's clear that is the best move for the team.

isn't it great to have some hope for the Sixers? I'm so excited I find myself slipping into Hubie-speak.

"Given the overall regression of the team last year from a coaching standpoint, its not fair to criticize the young man for not having a role to play on the team. So you throw last year out.

Now, what we saw in the previous year was a guy who showed some excellent skill in scoring the basketball in the painted area. You saw him attacking the basket, and you saw some slick moves with the left hand. You saw a guy who was comfortable and could get a high-percentage shot from a spot on the floor about 7 to 10 feet from the basket.

What you did not see was a guy who could effective guard his man on the defensive end of the floor. You saw a guy who lacked strength to prevent his man from getting to the glass and crashing the board for offensive rebounds.

If I am Doug Collins and I am coaching this young man, I tell him to keep doing what he's comfortable doing on the offensive end, and I tell the young man to concentrate on playing GOOD POSITION DEFENSE, I tell hime to keep his body between the the guy he is guarding, and the basket. And I tell him that he will be evaluated based on his ability to keep his man from getting to the rim, and/or crashing the offensive glass.

If he does that, he will have a long career in this league."

Seriously though -- Thad has the skills to be a key contributor to a good team. He could improve his weaknesses pretty easily with good coaching and by physically maturing. He'll get stronger as he gets older. He could be an effective scorer, particularly against second echelon power forwards he'll face as a bench player. It's way too soon to give up on the guy.

Rich reply to Jake on May 20 at 12:49

"I tell hime to keep his body between the the guy he is guarding, and the basket. And I tell him that he will be evaluated based on his ability to keep his man from getting to the rim, and/or crashing the offensive glass."

This is what worries me. He used to be a guy who laid off of good SF's to the point where they could step into a wide-open three off the dribble. Everyone remembers Hedo in Game 4 a couple of years ago. Last year, he did that and was still getting twisted in every possible way. Anyone who said that Thad needs to get back to playing aggressive is mistaken too, he never was that type of defender. It was that he flourished on the break when the team was aggressive.

Jake reply to Rich on May 20 at 16:36

Rich -- of course you're right about his problems defending away from the basket and in the pick and roll, but I see that as a coaching/experience issue that could be fixed. I think he has the quickness to go out and cover shooters, and to go over screens or to show and recover, he just didn't do it properly in the games.

Some of it can be coached, yes, but there some things I think he just doesn't have on the defensive end. The guy just gets eaten alive by screens, I mean stopped dead, every single time. Never fights through the contact, never avoids them. It's very, very hard to cover for that on the defensive end.

Jake reply to Brian on May 20 at 16:51

well, that's a good point. Maybe I'm overly optimistic with Thad, but isn't the inability to deal with screens a coaching issue too. The dude probably didn't have to worry about developing that skill until he got into the NBA, and it probably isn't too late for him to learn. But eventually I suppose you have to assess him for what he is, rather than what he might be.

Rich reply to Jake on May 20 at 16:56

I think that it's more of he needs a good defensive coach to help mask his shortcomings. For all of the talk about Thad being a High IQ basketball player, he does a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong on the defensive end. Not to mention he walked approximately 1,000 times with the same move where he shuffled his feet on the catch.

I just got Synergy and I watched that crazy first half he had against Golden State in December. Not a good defensive team, but he can certainly score the ball. Off the bench, his quirky offensive game could be deadly.

paul reply to Jake on May 20 at 12:50

Agree with your assessment of Thad. I think he still has considerable potential. I just think the Sixers don't have as much need for him if they draft Evan Turner (and I hope they do!). I think if the Sixers offered him as trade for a mid-first round draft pick, a number of teams might show interest and the Sixers could use that to fill a more critical remaining need (like a back up defensive center or a backup point guard who really is a point guard).

Charlie Ace reply to Jake on May 20 at 18:12

Great Hubie spoof, but you said "high percentage shot." The correct terminology is "high percentage shot opportunity."

bebopdeluxe on May 20 at 16:47

1) Iguodala is a WAY better defender than Thad...way, WAY better (duh);

2) if Turner goes down, who can fill his role (SG) better - Iguodala or Thad? Gotta be Iggy...

3) the only way the Jrue/ET/Iggy combo works is if the ball moves between them...a LOT. Who will be better at passing/moving the ball - Iggy or Thad? Gotta be Iggy...

4) Thad is still a VERY tradable contract, while Iguodala's contract requires a LOT more work to move;

Moving Thad for a young big on draft-day (I am intrigued by Sanders, but I'm sure there will be other options) makes a lot of sense...you still have Sammy for another year, so the new kid can get coached up by Collins this year...get some minutes as the season goes on...and if we don't re-sign Sammy, the guy can hopefully be ready to step into the rotation next season.

Unless we can get real value for Iggy (like Kevin Love and the 16th and 23rd picks or something, some trade like that where the salaries match up. Jefferson is just a taller version of Elton. Coming off all the injuries and no D), then we should look heavily into moving all of our non Iggy/Jrue/Turner players in any kind of deal that can bring in young talent.

Preferably people who can defend and shoot.

I like Love, but he can't defend or shoot, really. He's just a rebounding monster and he's not worth Iguodala.

Mike P reply to Brian on May 20 at 17:43

Stop pointing out the inconsistencies of my stupid fantasy trades.

Just read that the teams who are interested in Rudy Gay could be trading partners for Iggy too.

Why give gay a max contract when you can just get Iggy in a trade? Maybe we could get Gordon from the Clippers and their pick or something.

I know you have the biggest crush on Iggy here, but are their any deals you'd take for him and be happy about?

Yeah, there are definitely deals possible. I proposed one a couple months back involving Eric Gordon, but I'm not sure it's possible anymore. The Sixers just need to get back equal value or better, which is a very good player + pick(s).

Ok, i feel like people are overlooking a lot of things here. By trashing Thad you are ignoring the fact that last year is an unfair year to evaluate his overall body of work. Jordan completely screwed up his rhythm and confidence by giving him inconsistent minute and not giving him a definitive role. There were games where thad would start, miss his first 2 shots, get yanked and not see the court again till mid 3rd quarter..absurd for a talented 21 year old. That said, while his defense is far from otherworldly, the fact that jordan's defense as a team sucked is a large part of that (iggy's D was not always stellar this past season either). While i'm not sure what position thad winds up as, im pretty sure on this years team, one that has no real prospects of winning much, you have to see what he has, after his sophomore season everyone was marveling at what he did down the stretch, why did one aweful coach/terrible system change all that? i have no idea.

The real problem is andre, over the past 2 years his man D has lapsed a little bit, and he has stagnated as a player. Honestly, i dont like him on our team. Get this, last season he shot somewhere in the vicinity of 35%...35%!! on all shots outside the block/charge restraining circle. Basically anything other than a dunk or layup he shot worse than the average NBA player shoots threes. That is unforgivable. Point being, assuming we take turner at #2, i think we have a young enough (and crappy enough) team that we have to start or give starters minutes to the number 2 overall pick. I think thad is every bit the athlete iggy is (dont believe me, the draft combine numbers will bare that out) and he is younger and a better shooter. On a team with no route to winning now, we need talented prospects with the hope that one of them turns into something. Andre is not, at 26, with 6 years in the NBA going to turn into anything new or fantastic. He needs a number one (and possible a number 2) option ahead of him to be successful, we dont have those things here and likely wont for a few years. Thats why iguodala is the odd man out.

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