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Not Worth the Risk

There is a good chance Cousins falls after this IMO. Johnson and Aminu might go up a spot.

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Danny J on May 22 at 4:32
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Don't tell me about Cousins' wing span, don't tell me about his college stats, don't tell me about his post game. I don't care at all.

Ummmmm ok. You might as well say, "i don't care about basketball, I care about a % body fat that is about 10% under the overweight classification."

Seriously, this is a joke. You're operating from the standpoint that Favors is this idealistic big man savior, but you refuse to look at actual talent. The fact that you're hinging your entire evaluation of Cousins on a 16% body fat shows that you are looking for an excuse to damn him. Yes, he is heavier than other prospects. I guess that gives you justification to ignore his college stats and post game. Congratulations, you will never be a scout.

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Ryan F reply to Danny J on May 22 at 7:46
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It has less to do with his weight and more to do with his lack of commitment in the biggest point in his life. Are you taking a piss right now?

This guy is in a position to go high in this draft and all he has to do is work hard and he'll do wonders for the rest of his life. Instead he gets fat and gives everyone another reason to pass him up. Are you seriously disregarding this very simple logic?

Talent reigns supreme in basketball, but if a player doesn't put in the effort to match it, it normally turns into a disaster.

Maybe in his late 20's he'll turn into a hard working, mature player, but by then the team who drafted him will be kicking themselves in the ass because they had to trade his attitude for peanuts, while other players taken after him have went on to solid pro careers.

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AaronMcKie4MVP on May 22 at 6:01
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i think this should be a huge red flag about the guys attitude. i agrree that i want nothing to do with him. if he had any work ethic, burning desire to prove himself, or interest in anything except collecting a few million, he would have got his fat a$$ in shape. the fact is guys like this do not give a damn about wiunning, improving, legacy, respect of a fan base.. demarcus reached his goal, he is the nba, he will make more money than he ever has seen. none of the qualitiative stuff matters to him.

im glad this is being seen now. i hated the guy the moment he turned his back on the team huddle and walked to the bench. probably because he couldnt take criticism...players like this are just not worth the risk.

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teddygreen on May 22 at 6:08
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i wouldn't want to be a GM because this is such a tough choice because his potential is so alluring. We're talking about a player with such rare size and skill set. He could be a bust or the next dominant big man...

Nice SI article about this very issue...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/frank_hughes/05/21/cousins.update/

its damned if you do, damned if you don't

i wonder if Doug Collins is still haunted by the memories of Kwame Brown, another talented but immature kid...

This guy played only 23 min per game in college because of weight and condition problems.How can it be possible for him to play 30 min per game in NBA ? He's definitely not worth it.If we trade the 2nd pick we're doomed.

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teddygreen on May 22 at 7:01
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So if the rumored Sixers and T-Wolves trade is for the Sixers 2nd pick for the T-Wolves 4th, 16th, and the 23rd picks; I’m not sure i like it, but i can see how Stefanski can justify it.

Ed can claim that he really is trading the 2nd pick for the 16th and 23rd pick, and that they're just taking a gamble on a player who can be special with the 4th pick. If Cousins pans and is great than is a bonus, if not, well they still got the 16th and 23rd pick in what he could claim is a deep draft. He can also claim that Turner was too much of a duplicate of Iggy. If someone asks him about Favors, he can claim that they already have Brand and Speights at PF. This is all speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did this...

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to teddygreen on May 22 at 8:24
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im not opposed to trading the pick, but i hope it isnt to take cousins. and, i think we can get a better deal than just 16 and 23 for swapping 2/4. i think if we trade the pick , we need to get rid of brands contract. otherwise whats the point,. the 16 and 23? in this draft? who do we get ? i wouldnt mind getting a second rounder and taking a sdhot at Verando and his 5 blocks a game, but im not sure there is much value in the mid 1st round of this draft.

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bebopdeluxe on May 22 at 8:22
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#2 and Lou for #3, Lee and Humphries

The trade still makes sense to me if a] Johnson, to our staff is close to Turner skill wise and more athletic b] the #16 and #23 can get this team a top #10 to #13 pick for Udoh,Whiteside,Montiejunis,etc. [get feedback from other teams first].

Cousins is such a talent that he has probably never had to be in shape to have success at any level. The question is when matched up against NBA level talent what will he do? Get in shape and accept the challenge to become an elite player OR float by, take the the money and run. I would guess that most with his mind set underachieve.
I agree, I don't think I'd gamble with a top pick on him.

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bdownbear on May 22 at 9:02
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They are not going to do this silly trade.....Believe me!! Like others have been saying, they are going to have to be blown away. Favors is gone at 3 and I could care less after that. I could live with Brand, its not like he's cancer. Brand can still be used right. I'm pretty sure Collins would address this to Brand about his new role. If I want a big, I would trade Thad for a mid round pick. I'm pretty sure this is Stefanski's plan. With Dalembert expiring, he has to address the center position. I would however, trade Iguodala and a future first for #4 (Wesley Johnson) and the other two first rounders. Johnson would be the ideal fit next to Turner.

I'm with Brian. Both because of him being out of shape and because of his quotes, I don't touch him. He may very well grow out of his immaturity, he may very well grow into his body, but I'm not banking my future on it. I talked with him for a good hour this week (I didn't leave his table on either of the days) and came away very unimpressed.

I filed an article with SBNation on him. I'll link to it when it's done.

I didn't do much video stuff at the combine because I really don't have that equipment (I've got my 40d, my voice recorders, video recorders are next on my todo list), but I took a few minutes from a few prospects more just for my own collection. Here's a few minutes from Cousins day 2 interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jWHk7VSM0

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Derek Bodner on May 22 at 10:24
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he actually doesnt look at all like a fat a$$. but he definitely looks like he has better places to be. i think he was in a hurry to get home, smoke a blunt, and play Modern Warfare with his crew

Like I said a while ago, If we draft him Speieghts and Cousins would form the fiercest smoking tandem on the east coast. Terrorizing white castles from philly to jersey.

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eddies' heady's reply to The Greek on May 22 at 12:51
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Maybe it could help Marreese's rebounding and defensive aggression if they spar over who gets the most tokes.

And on that note, it could also help out Marreese's black hole tendencies with the puff-puff-pass technique. He can finally learn to 'give it up'.

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bdownbear reply to Derek Bodner on May 22 at 10:42
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Funny stuff there. I bet you Collins is praying for them not to trade down. I don't know how Calipari coached this guy.

BTW, Cousins was MUCH better on this interview. Much less media there the second day. I wish I had video of his first day interview, which was pretty much a trainwreck.

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teddygreen reply to Derek Bodner on May 22 at 14:06
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Okay Derek,
After seeing that interview, you convinced me. i would avoid Demarcus Cousins. If i were to predict where Cousins would go in the draft, i would say he would go either to the Kings at 5, or the Pistons at 7. The reason being is that i can't see the Nets taking him at 3, with Favors on the board. i doubt the Timberwolves take him at 4, since they already have Al Jefferson, and Wesley Johnson will still be on the board. The Kings probably could snatch Cousins at five because they gambled on risky players before (Ron Artest). The Kings know the challenge it is to bring talent to Sacramento. If the Kings do pass on Cousins at 5, i can't see the Warriors taking him at 6 because they already have a difficult player in Anthony Randolph. If Cousins falls to 7, than Joe Dumars will be doing back flips. JD is very desperate to retain his job, and he desperately needs a low post player.

anybody remember what the scouting report was on sir charles before he got drafted? i don't remember, but i do remember in an interview years after his rookie season, he claimed that it was the professionalism of Doc and other vets that made him get serious about his weight and attitude.

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Court_visioN reply to joeykey on May 22 at 12:46
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right. Cousins is going to see the professionalism of a bunch of other young kids and get serious about playing basketball. i don't think the barkley reference ties in with cousins at all. Barkley was drafted to a winning veteran team.

I was wondering the same thing. I remember Barkley being considered a risky pick and his weight a serious concern. I also remember Charles was much thinner his second season.

Maybe a better comparison is Dawkins -- an extremely immature kid with phenomenal natural gifts. Dawkins wasn't a total bust. But what a relief when we picked up Caldwell Jones who never totally dominated games but also didn't seem to mysteriously disappear for long stretches.

Yeah I can see the reasons for not just sitting at #2 and taking Turner: another player who works better with the ball than away from it (unlike W. Johnson); not a real 3pt shooter; not much length with his height; big men who could dominate both ends of the floor like Favors are so rare...And if there were a trade that would let us still take Johnson while dumping Brand and adding Udoh/Whiteside/Bradley--well that would be something to consider. But I can't sake this thought: the NBA is a superstar's league. You need to have one to win, and here is a guy (Turner) who dominates games just sitting there in our lap. Why risk a Sam Bowie??

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eddies' heady's reply to Vaughn on May 22 at 12:46
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But seriously, does Turner really stand out as a 'star' or even moreso a #1 option? I just don't see the guy being a first option for a team. A swiss army knife that can get you a bucket or get to the line? Yes. But a legitimate go-to option? I'm just not sure he is.

In a word? Yes. He's a capable #1 option in the L. Likely not a future scoring option, but a smart & deceptively athletic player that can get his shot comfortably efficiently in a number of ways.

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eddies' heady's reply to rswknight on May 22 at 16:08
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I just don't see it in the guy as for being a #1 option. But for arguments sake, if he's not a future scoring option then how the heck can he be your go-to guy?

He's not a pure shooter, so if he isn't labeled as a 'scorer' by you, then how does he equate a #1 option guy?

Mis-edit on my part. I meant future scoring champion, not option. I don't see him as a guy collecting scoring titles. But he is a go-to guy

I don't think this draft will be done without Doug's opinion and Doug's option has got to be Turner.If we gonna play halfcourt offense we need players with high basketball IQ.Currently we only have Jrue.

For now, some players, such as Hayward, were surprised to interview with the Sixers. The sophomore is projected to go somewhere from 10th to 20th in the draft. "They got the No. 2 pick. So I don't know how that's going to go," Hayward jokingly said of his interview. "But it was good. They have good people there. It was interesting talking to them and seeing kind of what they thought and thought of me."

this scared the shit out of me.

Simple, it means they are trying to get back in the draft after 2.

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Levent reply to rswknight on May 22 at 15:35
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It could also mean we're considering giving Wolves the 2nd pick for their other picks.And that scares me.

I doubt it. They love Turner, from what I am hearing

What was Shaq's body fat when he won all his titles? I know your argument is that if Cousins cared he would've lost the fat now, but I guess you could also say that if Shaq cared he would have lost the fat when he was actually in the league. Isn't that a lot more important?

Shaq was an athletic freak(like LeBron). Cousins is not at that level and would need to lose the weight. People have brought up Barkley, but I do not think this team has the culture to 'correct' a players habits like Doc & Moses did.

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johnrosz reply to Tray on May 22 at 15:18
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Shaq during his prime was probably the most dominating physical specimen ever to play in the NBA. Unlike Cousins, Shaq could play above the rim. He was quick for a guy so large, he had a little bit of flab but was also by far the strongest guy in the NBA. Cousins is a twig compared to that.

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kevinollie4three on May 22 at 15:00
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on simmon's podcast the other day jay bilas said he'd worked with cousins in the past and wouldn't draft him unless it was in the late first round since there's so much to lose. even his own teammates have some colorful things to say about him. check out daniel orton's interview on draftexpress. "what kind of person is demarcus cousins?" "uhhh, yeahhh...". he then goes on to describe his numerous temper tantrums and holding him back from fighting someone in practice. nice.

also...what is cousins' upside? he doesn't defend, is not a stellar athlete and doesn't really rebound. he parks on the left block and scores. people forget that in college barkley was a physical freak who was shooting threes and taking the ball coast to coast. watch kentucky play, cousins was soo slow up and down the court. in my estimation he's a poor man's al jefferson (AT BEST).

OT, here is a list of measurements for SG/SF's drafted in the top 15 (including top 15 prospects this year. The list include Turner, Wes, Iguodala, Thad, LBJ, X Henry...

Iguodala, Turner and Thad are basically the same height/wt. But Thad has the longest arms/reach, Turner the shortest.

Measurements don't tell you much, but give you an accurate sense of how big a guy is compared to NBA plaers.

BTW, Jrue and Wall are about the same size/length.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=15&pos=3&sort=

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tk76 reply to tk76 on May 22 at 15:35
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Top 5 no-step vertical list:
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Jordan Crawford Xavier 36"
Evan Turner Ohio State 34.5"
John Wall Kentucky 30"
Darington Hobson New Mexico 29"
Xavier Henry Kansas 28.5"

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tk76 reply to tk76 on May 22 at 15:38
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25-yard sprint (unofficial times)

3.14 for Wall (fastest of the day)
3.27 for ET (5th fastest time)

... So Turner has the game, size and measurable athleticism. Unless you think his jumper is truly broken there is little reason to doubt his game will translate.

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Jason reply to tk76 on May 22 at 16:16
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Also, Turner hands are same length as favors and wider than Favors.

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tk76 reply to tk76 on May 22 at 16:38
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FYI
Compared to Roy coming out...

Turner is 0.5" taller, same wingspan, 2.5" longer reach (short neck?), 0.5" more no step vert (so 3" higher max point on vert.) Same 3/4 court sprint time.

So by the available numbers, similar athlete, slightly better length.

Well i knew evan's athleticism was underrated. Now i think he should be at number 2. If he fixes his outside jumper, he'll be an all-star 4 sure.

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teddygreen on May 22 at 17:46
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http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/2010/05/22/2010-05-22_prokhorovs_plan_begins_with_avery.html?page=1#ixzz0oh8hJi4W


Before getting an offer from the Sixers and taking the coaching job, Doug Collins was "climbing the walls," waiting to hear from team president Ed Stefanski. Collins' fear was that Stefanski's bosses, Ed Snider and Peter Luukko, would change direction and bring back Larry Brown. In that case, Stefanski would have been out. Collins' reaction to being put on hold showed that he has not lost his passion. "It's always been his greatest strength - and his greatest weakness," said one Eastern Conference official. "But the bottom line is, he always cares."

With Collins on board and the Sixers almost guaranteed to take Turner with the No. 2 pick, Stefanski could start reshuffling the deck by moving Andre Iguodala to Dallas in a package deal. The Mavs are looking for help at shooting guard. Not overly quick but with a knack for getting to the basket, Turner has drawn comparisons to the Blazers' Brandon Roy.

The biggest asset the Mavs have is the contract of Eric Dampier which functions a little like a trade exception because it can be voided. The Mavs would have to include more assets though...


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Jason reply to teddygreen on May 22 at 18:06
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There is nothing i'd be interested in from Mavericks for the sixers. lol if we trade iguodala.

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rchap13 reply to Jason on May 22 at 18:16
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i like the way beaubois was playing at the end of the season. But that still wouldn't be enough to get iggy

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Jason reply to rchap13 on May 22 at 18:24
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yup, definitely not enough, especially considering we'd have two 6 foot guards in Jrue and Rod.

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rchap13 reply to Jason on May 23 at 2:00
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u mean lou. Jrue is 6'2-6'4 i think

Dirk is supposedly opting out; Iggy and Sam and a future #1? Just wishing!!!

throw in beaubois to that and deal

Some interesting measurements from combine; St. Robinson measured under 6!8" and P.Patterson measured over 6!9"; C.Aldrich weighed in the 230!s, could he go ahead of Cousins? Udoh wasn!t as long as I thought he was and E.Davis measured out well.

I remember when Luke Jackson, a great college scorer who the scouts thought wasn't very athletic, somehow had a 40 inch vert at the combine. So some team spent a lottery pick on him. Of course, they were right all along about his not actually being athletic.

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rchap13 reply to Tray on May 22 at 19:35
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well i think don't think luke jackson was as good a basketball player as turner.

Luke Jackson wasn't "amazing". Comparing their junior seasons:
Jackson: 16 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 3.6 apg, 45.2% fg, 36.3% threept%, 1.15 3ptm/game
Turner: 20.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6 apg, 51.9% fg%, 36.4% 3pt%, 0.64 3ptm/game

So, besides Turner being better in every single category, he was also more efficient. Their games really weren't that similar, and Jackson's game didn't translate because more than just athleticism.

Second, I care much more about lane agility than I do about verticals. From watching, Turner's NBA-level quick. He'll have no problem translating. Comparison to Jackson is way off base.

Derek,
I know you're big on Turner. What's your opinion of Favors? Thanks.

Love him. Just less than Turner :)

He's #3 on my board. Love his defensive potential, love his rebounding potential (on both ends), love his work ethic, just not sure he's ever going to be a top option, force a double team kind of big man.

Did Johnson!s measurements [wingspan especially] get him any closer to an option here [tradedown?]; he just seems taylor made for an Iggy running mate. And what is your opinion of George, he seems quite popular and can he be a s.g.?

Nah, my evaluation of Johnson didn't change. The measurements are great, but not the reason I didn't see him as a top 3 prospect.

Like George, and like him a lot more now that we (assuming) have Turner in the fold and he's not asked to either create for others, relied on to be a #1 option, or defend the other teams best player. If he's there 20+ I'd love to take him.

I'll have a "what's changed" post on libertyballers shortly.

Thanks, looking forward to it. It will get real interesting at 12 on down. Henry seems to have impressed athletically.

I never said that Jackson and Turner were similar players, just that Jackson was a great college scorer (esp. in his senior year, the stats from which were a lot better than jr. year) who wouldn't have gone in the lottery had he not had surprisingly and deceptively good numbers in the combine. Of course their games were different, Jackson's bread and butter was largely his excellent three-point shooting.

oh nevermind (brainfart). Luke Jackson was a pretty good triple-double threat. But i think turner's amazing ball-handling skills, ability to create his own shot and mid-range game separates him from Turner.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to rchap13 on May 22 at 22:49
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lol, luke jackson, i remember that LArk. and another named kirk snyder. these guys moved up a lot in the draft around this time

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anonymously on May 23 at 5:16
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if Stefanski will exchange #2 pick somewhere along with Brand it will be a slap on the logo of the club! Turner - potential future franchise 76ers! Ed signed Elton for huge money and wants to atone for his mistake at the cost of future star. If we look realistically at the situation while Turner will develop each forgets about the Brand's contract, remained for 3 years, or 2, because man with big last year contract will be in demand. This year ends contracts - Dalembert, Green, Kapono.. is where some 40 million for team will be or even can trade Iguodala, but can't touch Turner!

Emil. Sorry for bad english I'm from Ukraine.

Hmmm...So turner has the second highest verticle and 5th highest 25 yard sprint. Any WHY exactly is this guy not considered to be a very good athlete ?
What the heck are we using to measure athleticism ?How many 360 dunks he had on sportscenter ?
I mean seriously...can someone explain this to me ?
I agree on Cousins...he has bust written all over him. Furthermore..turner does seem like a go to guy and we cant fall in love with Athleticism. (favors) Every team NEEDS a go to guy at the end of the games. Cant win without them and they only come up every few years and they are usually at the top or near the top of the lottery. Dont blow it Ed.

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Jason reply to Gdog on May 23 at 13:07
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Demarcus Cousins = Jamarcus Russell imo.


Both have similar first names too.

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Old School SixerFan reply to Gdog on May 23 at 14:12
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Athleticism is important,but how is it defined? Is it a series of statistics or some kind of intangible. I guess If it is statistics, I'd like to see a comparison between Turner and Wade and Kobe. To be a great player, one must have both athleticism and skills. However, with good work ethic, skills can probably be learned.

I'm not sure that Wade even had incredible numbers in his combine. This article points out that he was ranked the 14th best athlete in his combine, and that Iguodala only had a 34 inch vert in his combine, only one inch greater than J.J. Redick's. Monta Ellis ranked last in his combine; the numbers said he was slow and couldn't jump. Chris Paul was slower than Sean May and Wayne Simien. Durant had terrible numbers. Nik Caner-Medley, that white Maryland player from Maine, ranked 9th in a combine once. So I would say that the moral of the story is, if scouts have doubts about Turner's athleticism, his numbers in some meaningless non-in-game test don't rebut those doubts.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/But-Can-He-Play-Analyzing-the-NBA-Pre-Draft-Combine-Results-2096/

Turner did not need to rely on his athleticism to be efficient. Crafty moves and a midrange game do not show off your athletasism- but its nice to no its there.

I do think Turner had some highlight dunks, but he does not have the best first step (neither does Iguodala for that mater.) But with size and a great handle you don't need a first step to get into the lane. Iguodala and Jrue show that routinely.

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johnrosz reply to tk76 on May 23 at 20:42
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I keep reading that Turner doesn't have a very good first step. Yet he seems to get by just about everyone with relative ease. We all saw with Andre Miller how effective a ball handler can be if they are deceptive/change speeds. Seems to me that the guy is being undersold athletically just because he doesn't jump out of the gym.

Also because he is not a power finisher, but can score at a high percentage without dunking on people.

His body control is excellent.

I see a lot of highlights where he initiates contact and finishes with a smooth layup (sort of like Lou) which should really translate into the pro game.

This question has been on my mind today--- Why did Adam Morrison's game not translate into the pro game? I mean he averaged 28 points a game and had some excellent games against good competition in his final year of college.

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johnrosz reply to ojr107 on May 24 at 0:31
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speaking of white guys that were awesome in college and can't get off the bench in the pros. what happened to Joe Alexander?

I don't remember Morrison being that awful as a rookie, he had a pretty horrific knee injury if i remember correctly. He can't seem to crack a rotation because he's incapable of defending in the NBA. Doesn't help him that he's on the most talented roster on the NBA.

morrison was soft and that was a weak year for college basketball.

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smh1980 on May 24 at 0:51
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I think we are in a good position here with the number 2 pick so we can draft Turner and see what happens with the 4th pick. I was reading a Nets blog and it seems that they want Cousins over Favors. If Favors drops to Minnisota then we can trade Turner to them for Favors and a 1st round draft pick. I would probably like them to get Minny's 2011 first round draft pick as opposed to the 16 and 23rd pick this year. We could get lucky and be in the top 5 next year again. That is probably the only scenario that I can see playing out because I don't think we want Cousins and there are too many questions with the rest of this draft class if we would trade lower than # 4.


2011 Starting 5

Jrue (21 yr)
Alec Burks (19) (2011 pick from Minisota)
Iggy (28)
Brand (32)
Favors (20)

Record 47 - 35

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Court_visioN reply to smh1980 on May 24 at 1:17
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that's a HUGE gamble you would be taking. I feel that with the position the Sixers are at, they HAVE to come out of this draft with Wall, Favors, or Turner. Trading down to #4 hoping that New Jersey is going to pass on Favors in favor (no pun intended) of Cousins is going to be a very risky move that I wouldn't count on. I would rather stand pat and draft the guy you want, whether that's Favors or Turner.

There's no risk, actually. You take Turner #2 and then you wait about 5 minutes. If New Jersey takes Cousins, then you make the trade. If they take Favors, you tell Kahn you hope he's happy with Cousins and we have Turner.

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Court_visioN reply to Brian on May 24 at 1:36
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oh. stupid me, for some reason i was thinking the trade proposal was just to trade the picks before we drafted anybody.

I do agree 100% that we can't come out of this draft without Wall, Turner or Favors.

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bebopdeluxe on May 24 at 8:49
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This team needs too much to not be uber-creative...if DiLeo and Collins really like Favors, then they
ABSOLUTELY need to see if they can leverage other teams' potential desire to get Turner into either additional assets or cap relief for next summer. I actually think that Courtney Lee has potential unter a teacher like Collins, and if we could get them to take Lou's contract as well, we could turn Turner into Favors, Lee and $3.2 million of additional expiring contract next summer. I'm not quite as amped up about a trade with the T-Wolves, because I don't see us being able to turn #2 into the same bounty of assets.

However, I think that Collins is going to try to resurrect Brand's game...and I doubt that they are going to give up on Speights until Collins has a chance to work with him, so it would seem that the more straight-forward way to go about things is to simply take Turner and then try to get another pick in the teens (lower-teens by trading Thad...higher-teens by buying it or swapping for an out-year 1st) if one of the bigs that they like falls to where they can get him.


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