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Collins As Co-Pilot

smh1980 on May 26 at 2:38

I didn't pick up on this originally when following the interview's the past few days but I think you are correct in your observation. Did you notice how he came right to Stefanski's defense when the question came up about his lame duck status? Like Stefanski or not that is the kind of leadership from Collins that impresses me. He didn't let Ed take a beating in the media. He jumped right in and said how great Ed was communicating with him and really got Collins excited about coaching this team. Does anyone think Collins will be throwing his team under the bus next year? I don't.

I like Doug Collins having this type of power in the organization because it is a better dynamic for personnel decisions to be made. A partnership works with a guy of Collins caliber. With Collins being 58 years old and being a student of the game for so long makes me believe he knows how to build a winner. Stefanski should do what he does best and mingle with the other GM's and get Collins his wish list.

Collins stated he wants to see what players he has here that could start on a playoff caliber team and also which players could start on a championship caliber team. Until he gets these guys in the gym he won't know. It's going to be a painful process to get there but I'm getting excited for next year already.

This is a great point Brian. After watching the press conference, I do believe that Collins might have the most power of any coach for the Sixers since Brown. Because, even w/o the additional titles, he has stature, even more than his "boss". Stefanski's 1st coaching hire was happy to sit downhill and take whatever his boss gave him. Now, Stefanski has hired a man who has done Stefanski's job before, someone with strong, smart opinions and stature. That alters the power dynamic greatly, imo.

I do believe Collins could successfully advocate for moves because he is a master communicator armed with details and facts, which helps when dealing with a man like Snider.

IMO, the only way I see Thad moved is if they get their future Defensive anchor in the deal. Collins is already publicly asking for a bruiser(he's always had one, from Oakley to Don Reid et al), and his Don Reid anecdote from his GM days pointed out just simple such a player could be to identify and acquire. Stefanski, coming on the same show about a half-hour later, seemed surprised about the request and stated that he would get it done. It sounded like Stefanski was working for Doug, not the other way around. It really reminded me of when Billy King was Brown's executive errand boy, to be honest.

When we first heard of the possibility of Collins coming to town, my ideal scenario would be for Collins to come in, right the ship and, when the eventual burnout hits, head upstairs to Stefanski's seat. Snider's comments semi-support this(especially with him mentioning that Stefanski has 2 years left on his deal).

I believe that there is a possibility that in a couple of years, Collins becomes Coach/VP of Basketball, with DiLeo as Team President/GM. Eventually, I could see Collins moving upstairs full time and turning over the keys to McKie.

But all of that is in the future. The most important part is that this team is likely on the right path for the 1st time in a long time.

I'm feeling so much better right now than I was the day the season ended, it's like night and day.

Ryan F reply to Brian on May 26 at 12:18

Same. Looking throughout the blogs and articles written about the team, comments everywhere seem to be very optimistic. I think there is reason to be.

Absolutely right. That is the one of the effects of hiring one of the best communicators in the business. Everybody is now clear, what's expected will be made known in stark terms. The beauty of that is the effect will filter both ways in the organization

He also talked about how he wanted to open some competitions up for playing time, which is basically a fancy way to say he wants to see who can play where.

I'm drinking the coolaid!

How about this headline:

Stephen A. Smith: Can Collins make Iguodala a star?

My spin on the Sixers is that they are looking to bring in a player who will be a star and maximize AI9's strengths(defense for one). Not make AI9 a star. Any thoughts?

Read more: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/stephen_a_smith/20100526_Stephen_A__Smith__Can_Collins_make_Iguodala_a_star_.html#ixzz0p2EGz4QB

Smith is so unbelievably horrible. I seriously don't know how he has a job.

jkay reply to Brian on May 26 at 12:51

its not what you say, its how loud you can say it. facial expressions, wild gesticulations and repetition are a plus too.

The following is currently on the ESPN Rumor Page. I would never make this move, luckily it's just made up:

Pistons president of basketball operations Joe Dumars spoke to the Detroit media Tuesday about a bunch of topics including making the team tough again. Terry Foster of The Detroit News has a trade in mind that could achieve Dumars' wish, but it would require him to make a daring move.

Foster writes: "The 76ers are willing to unload the No. 2 pick in the draft along with 6-foot-9 power forward bust Elton Brand. ... Brand could be what the doctor ordered for the Pistons. But Brand will make $15.6 million next season, $17.1 the following year and $18.2 million in 2013. That's a lot of cash, but it would be a bold and daring move. And here's how: Dumars should offer the 76ers the No. 7 pick in the draft, Richard Hamilton and Jason Maxiell for the No. 2 pick and Brand."

sfw reply to scott on May 26 at 8:53

Toss in next years #1, unprotected.

This is just a ridiculous rumor. Rip is washed up and signed for just as long as Brand. The final year on his contract is partially guaranteed, but the buyout is $9M. No way this happens.

Brian with all respect to you, please don't take offense.

For all the good stat's that Brian can produce for Iguodala I still can't get over.

1. His Broken Jumper

2. His inflated salary undeserving of a 3rd banana

3. His lack of on-court leadership, who would follow his shit stained frowny face in battle? To anyone who has ever played in organized sports whether in High school or in college you know what I mean. When your supposed leader pouts like a petulant little English school girl when things don't go right the you get what you deserve. A trip to the lottery, mass firings, and no attendance in the arena that you call home.

Is Turner a better SG then Iggy? He sure is just on the basis that Iggy has been tried at that position and has failed at it.

I will take it one step further, I think that Turner will be a better SF then Iggy, the kid is a leader one that Philly fans would want to root for. Plus he will make less money they Iggy, so in my opinion if one has to go let it be Fun Guy Iguodala. Just my opinion!

Here is a link to an Iguodala is a diva article that got me fired up today.


Sorry I didn't post that on your Iggy Thread from yesterday, just didn't have time from work.

I agree with you on needing a backup pg which brings us to Lou Williams. This is another loser type that needs to be weeded out and off of the team.

Iguodala is to blame for all the ills of the Philadelphia 76ers. He is to blame for the 6 head coaches since Larry Brown left (not counting DC). He is to blame for signing Elton Brand to a huge contract. He is to blame for the drafts and lack of player development. He is to blame for the lack of vision of the organization. He handpicked Eddie Jordan to be coach. It's all his fault.

The reality is Iguodala is simply the best player on a crappy team run by inept management and clueless owners. He is not a #1 option on a championship team, he is a talented, stat filling player who might or might not be a piece of the future success of the 76ers.

Iguodala's jumper isn't pretty. Everything else you've written here is completely off base.

In the future, don't use a Stephen A. Smith article as your evidence in any kind of argument. The guy is a complete moron.

Backup Free Agents Point Guards, anyone jump out at you guys:

Carlos Arroyo
Luke Ridnour
Steve Blake
Earl Watson
Chris Duhon

jkay reply to Marty on May 26 at 12:56

we could use Blake. good shooting range. can run an offense to some degree. not sure he will want to sign for the minimum, MLE or whatever crap we offer him.

Blake isn't worth the full MLE.

Mike P reply to Marty on May 26 at 17:48

Ridnour is awesome. Too bad the bucks will probably keep him.

Brian, I agree with the general idea of your post. Last year Stefanski did not want a high profile coach because he wanted the power. This year he needed to bring in a partner to help rebuild his security and that implies giving up/sharing some control.

I disagree about the lux tax. Snider/Comcast likely have not changed their position. They go over the tax to contend, but not to add small pieces. Being 2 mil over the tax can cost you 10M, so they will do what is necessary to get under it. They will not use the MLE. Also, using the MLE this summer would take away any real cap space they might have the following summer, so is counterproductive unless you are sure you are getting a better player than will be available the next year. And being under the cap gives you lots of opportunities (like getting free #1 picks by taking on a 1 year contract.)

I think they may try to get under the lux tax, but it's not going to be the #1 priority. Collins can, and will make the case that it's a one-year hit, and it's worth that money if the only other choice is to trade away a piece that fits for the long term. Now if you're talking about moving a piece that he doesn't think he needs, then yeah, I can definitely see it.

As for the MLE, I think they'll be players on a very limited basis, because as you said, it would impact their cap space next summer. I think they get involved on maybe one or two guys who fit, I have some ideas and I'll share them in the coming month, but if they don't land a perfect guy, they won't use it just to use it.

eddies' heady's on May 26 at 10:16

Good write-up. I hope with the best of all hopes that Collins is wearing a bigger shot-caller hat than ES. Just don't have any confidence in his evaluation or managerial or roster building capabilities anymore. I hope he's just along for the ride because he already had a guaranteed contract and Comcast doesn't want to pay him for not working anymore as they frequently do.

Tom Moore on May 26 at 10:20

Stefanski would be foolish not to listen to Collins because Collins is his last hope.

Brian, I have thought the same things as you wrote above. Personally, I mentioned this before the Collins hire, that Collins was brought in to ultimately become the GM. I believe Collins has more power than Stefanski these days.

This team is owned by a corporation. IF Collins sells mgmt on the future, I agree that the checkbook is open. But, it cannot be a quick fix. Can you imagine how much cash they 76ers can bring in if they can become a contender for the next 7-10 years? Money talks.

Lastly, I just want to state I was for the Collins hire from the beginning. I believe this was not a good move but a great move.

I was only+ onboard with the Collins hire AFTER they won the #2 pick. Turner is the answer to their prayers and the player that makes them good right away.

Had they ended up with the #6 pick I believe Collins/Stefanski would have made other moves to get a rapid turn around that would not be as palatable. Maybe not a "quick fix" but not a real needed bottoming out either. But with Turner that may not be necessary. We need a superstar more than anything else, and he has a chance to be that man.

On the link above, another link stated the following:

"Left to his own devices I could see Stefanski passing on the sure thing in Turner for a speculative stock like DeMarcus Cousins, but Collins will quickly garner the ear of Snider and Luukko, forcing Stefanski to make the right decision again.

Who knows, if Stefanski keeps letting the competent basketball people make the decisions -- he might even keep his own job for the long haul."


New Ford Mock has us taking Favors. I'm happy with Turner or Favors while I lean toward Turner because we can't afford to have a bust. I keep saying though that Favors can become a crazy combo of Josh Smith and Amare.

I'm pro-Favors with this pick, but I'm also 1,000% convinced that Chad Ford has no sources in the Sixers organization, and this fact pisses him off to the point where he constantly spouts nonsense wherever the Sixers are concerned. I wouldn't put any stock at all in this news.

steve reply to Brian on May 26 at 12:27

True but its very possible that they fall in love with him when they work him out. I really can't decide who I'd rather have. All season long I was convinced Favors was the second best if not the best player in this draft. With a good point guard he really could've dominated college. Plus he had Gani Lawal,another nba prospect, stealing all of his shots from the post.

I'm starting to move to the pro-Favors camp as well. Turner is a good prospect and should be a fine pro, but it's much easier to trade for an Evan Turner than it is to get a Favors.

On that point, I'll disagree.

Elite wings don't move around as easily as you think, especially 2-way impact players.

Just look at the Post-Jordan era: Kobe(same team), Wade(same team), arguably Roy(same team), Manu(same team), LeBron(Same team(for now)), Carmelo(Same team), Pierce(same team), Durant. The only elite wings that have moved around were T-Mac, AI, Vince Carter, arguably Joe Johnson & Ray Allen; all of whom forced their way out more than once.

Meanwhile, defensive anchors that have changed teams include Mutombo, Mourning, Garnett, arguably Shaq, Ben Wallace, arguably Rasheed Wallace, arguably Pau Gasol, arguably Ron Artest. The only one who hasn't moved is Duncan.

Another Anchor that hasn't moved is Howard. So that's 2: Duncan and Howard.

Following your line of thinking, you believe Turner will be an elite wing, I'm not as sold. I hope for the 76ers sake he is an elite.

Also, your list of players shows elite wings are much more plentiful then big men. Of the big men you mentioned, only a few were in their prime when dealt and most forced their way out or the team was fed up with them. Plus one could argue about a few of those names on your big men list.

It comes down to risk and reward. Evan Turner is clearly the safe pick at #2 and if the 76ers want to win now he should be the choice. If the 76ers are truly building a foundation for future success, I like Favors. Honestly I'm just happy the 76ers have options as either player should help the team.

I'm sure I'll write a full post on this in the coming weeks, but for me it comes down to a couple things. I think both guys have the ability to be superstars in this league. In a vacuum, I think it's more likely that Turner becomes a superstar, but we aren't operating in a vacuum here. My concern with Favors has nothing to do with the defensive end. I believe he's going to be a force. So the question becomes, will he reach his potential on the offensive end, meaning can he be an efficient 20ppg scorer, can he command a double team and eventually pass well enough to punish teams for doubling him.

This is where Jrue comes in. I believe Jrue is the type of PG who can add 4-5 ppg to a skilled big man's scoring total. So you take Favors, factor in the easy, easy looks Jrue (and Iguodala, really) will get him and I think it becomes a much less risky proposition that he'll reach his offensive potential, having perimeter players like that bring the floor up, so to speak.

Whether it's Turner or Favors, I won't be upset at all. There's still work to be done, and I think both of these guys have a good chance at being superstars on the Sixers. Just don't take Cousins.

I realize this is blasphemous, but say Favors turns into Duncan and Turner turns into Kobe. Which guy would you rather have for the next decade? For me, it's Duncan.


Duncan all the way

Wait, are we saying Kobe without the baggage & ego issues?

That might be a little closer then you think. I'd really have to think about that one.

I'm not really sure you can separate Kobe the player from Kobe the ego. He isn't really the closer you're talking about without the ego, is he?

Oh, I meant the prima donna aspects, not the cold-blooded on-court ruthlessness

Ryan F reply to Brian on May 26 at 16:11

That is. But I would say even though were saying "what if" the most legitimate, best case comparison to Favors would probably be Howard. I myself would much rather have Kobe than Howard.

The Kobe/Duncan types, can and could in their prime, dominate every aspect of the game and be the best player on both sides of the floor, on the court, in any game. Favors best case offensive potential seems to be a player who finishes well around the rim because of athleticism, but still has limited back to the basket game.

Like I said, I don't know college ball all that well and don't start examining players until this time of year. I've only watched some youtube highlights and read articles so I could very well be wrong.

I understand debating if you'd rather build around a dominant big versus wing. But to bring specific names like Kobe or Howard implies we know exactly what Turner/Favors will become.

Howard grew a few inches and put on an insane amount of muscle without losing his explosiveness. I really don't think Favors has the frame to do that. Kemp would be a more likely upside than Howard.

And Kobe is unique. It would be like comparing MJ and Drexler. Both were great, but not exactly comparable. Saying Turner has Roy like or Kobe like qualities means he has a chance at being a superstar, but I'm not sure you can extrapolate much more than that.

I was hesitant to use names, but that's kind of how I look at it. If each guy reaches his full potential, which one would you rather have? Now, you have to factor in how likely it is that they will reach their potential, how quickly they'll reach that potential, how long they'll be in their prime, how their prime will mesh with the rest of your roster (though if you're getting a superstar, that's kind of low on the list). But bottom line, if both of these guys become everything we hope they can become, which is the more valuable commodity?

I also put a value on how difficult it would be to acquire the missing piece. That has an impact on which player I would choose. Plus, I rank Turner as a level above Favors, so that also means something

Since we are stuck with Brand's big contract for 3 years, the notion of having a star on a rookie contract like Turner is appealing. While Favors will be more of a nice role player for 2-3 years, and his star years would be more after he gets paid (and you could have the tough decision of deciding to keep or re-sign at age 22 before you know if he is a star.) Worse case you have a taller Tyrus Thomas.

Of course this is peripheral in deciding who to pick.

That seems like a pretty low offensive ceiling to give to an 18-year-old kid like Favors.

Here is my concern: If Favors reaches his potential, can he be a closer too? Every franchise big(with the exceptions of Hakeem, Wilt(67) and Kareem) needed a legit closer to help them seal the deal. Mainly because it is much easier to keep the ball out of the hands of a dominant big down the stretch(unless the player has very exceptional skills, like Hakeem's face-up game or Kareem's Skyhook).

If you draft Turner, you have the dominant scoring wing closer part settled. Between Turner & Iguodala, the #1 & #2 options are likely settled, and I would not be surprised if Jrue surfaces as the #3(or 2b) in his prime. Some might point to a lack of interior scoring, but all three of them can post their opposing number, and Turner is very good at getting himself clean looks consistently, making him very likely to be an efficient primary option.

If those parts are true, then the big can be a defensive anchor who is an opportunity scorer. Those type of guys are often moved around and/or overlooked in this day and age for those who can score the ball. If you have a scouting department with an eye for talent(and the Sixers do), the likelihood they can identify a diamond in the rough is fairly good.

That is not to mention that if Speights can be "reformed" to become a serviceable defender, it lowers the need for a scoring big.

All said, I would take Turner, without a 2nd thought.

It's kind of a circular argument. Shaq never won a championship w/out a closer around him. Kobe and Wade never won a championship w/out a dominant big. For my money, I want the big if given the choice.

It's nothing against Turner, and I'm desperately trying to keep this discussion away from being anti-turner or anti-favors.

There's also something very appealing about having your PG set for a decade in a 20-year-old, and your center set for a decade in a 19-year-old. Fill those roles, and you can piece the rest together around them.

It could be a circular argument, though equating Shaq lacking a closer to Kobe & Wade never won that title w/o a dominant big also disregards the fact that Kobe & Wade both had the dominant bigs brought to them, whereas Shaq had to go chase his necessary partner down, which was my point. Bigs can be more easily acquired then wing closers. Generally, in this era, bigs tend to go to the wing closers(Shaq to Wade, Gasol to Kobe, Garnett to Pierce) rather than the other way around.

I'd say the only post-Jordan exception to that would be the Spurs, and that was because they were light-years ahead of the game in International scouting. Ergo, using a low-1st on Parker or a low-2nd on Manu are scenarios unlikely to be repeated.

However, drafting a Kendrick Perkins or Robin Lopez or Ben Wallace or Oberto/Elson or in the middle of the 1st round(or even later) can happen, especially with the Sixers scouting department headed by DiLeo.

Shaq didn't really chase anything down. He went to the finals w/ Nick Anderson and Penny Hardaway in ORL. Then went to LA before Kobe was anything, he was a rook out of HS who wasn't even playing. Then he got shipped out of LA and teamed up with Wade in his second season.

You could make the argument that Shaq's presence was the reason Kobe and Wade flourished so early in their careers. Defenses weren't focused on either of them.

Oh certainly, that is not to say that a dominant big cannot make life easier for the wing partner(especially an all-time weapon like Shaq), but the fact remains that he couldn't close the deal without moving to another team with a homegrown closer.

Ryan F reply to Brian on May 26 at 16:16

The age difference is the one thing that makes this difficult. Well, the one main thing. The injury to Turner makes me a little hesitant on him.

Players can get better, they can practice. They can do many things to become a great player, but miles, years and games played you can't change.

Regarding Turner's elite status: IMO, he is a right-handed version of Manu with some of MVP-Kobe mixed in. He is a stronger, smoother but nastier version of BRoy at the same age + good D.

His only real weakness is a perceived lack of three-point range, yet he already has a proficient mid-range game, post game and dribble-drive game, which in today's game means he is very likely to be an elite scorer, especially once he adapts to the league.

Add the fact that he is a willing passer and capable defender and you have the most complete player in the draft who could still get even better(namely by adding the 3-pt shot as a viable weapon). He gives you a closer, a piece Orlando is DESPERATELY searching for.

BTW, Anchors that moved around while still in their prime in the Post Jordan era: Shaq, Mutombo, Sheed, Gasol, Artest. Wallace moved around a ton before his prime.

I hope Evan Turner is all you believe he will be in the future. Also, the in prime defensive BIGs you mentioned, Gasol was a once in a lifetime deal, Rasheed and Artest are nuts which lead to them being moved. Plus I see Favors as more than just a defensive BIG.

I like both guys, just moving pro-Favors.

Yeah, of the mentioned bigs only Gasol and Garnett were big time players when they got traded (the Gasol trade was once in a lifetime deal and the Garnett trade, well Boston did give up a lot and Garnett wanted to leave).

As for the wings YOu mentiend them yourself: T-Mac, AI, Allen, Carter...

Carter is paired with an anchor now, how is that working out? It speaks volumes that in the biggest game of the year during the time they actually brought him in for, he was benched for JJ Redick.

T-Mac speaks for itself. T-Mac's moving around never amounted to much because he is a talent but not a winner.

AI got paired with Mutombo to get to the Finals(another example of the big being brought to the dominant wing). Since AI started moving around, he's never gotten out of the 1st round, much like T-Mac.

Allen got moved around to a team where he was the 3rd best player to the resident closer and the dominant big that was brought in just after.


Mutombo was the defensive player of the year at the time.

Shaq has moved twice and became an MVP candidate both times after moving to his new team.

Sheed was in his prime and put DET over the top in 2004, being paired another anchor in Big Ben with a closer like Billups.

Gasol is now getting best big in the game pub

Garnett won Defensive Player of the Year post trade.

Court_visioN reply to rswknight on May 26 at 15:50

C-Webb is another elite big that moved around a little bit.

Also true. Historically, Big men have almost always moved around more than scoring wings.

Dominant Bigs(PF/C) that played for multiple NBA teams: 1-Wilt 2 rings with new teams
2-Kareem 5 rings
3-Hakeem 0 rings,
4-Ewing 0
5-Shaq, 4 rings
6-Moses, 1
7-Bill Walton, 1 ring
8-Gasol, 1
9-Garnett, 1
10-Barkley, 0
11-Malone*(ringchasing), 0
12-Robert Parish, 4 rings
13-Ben Wallace, 1 ring
14-Alonzo Mourning, 1 ring
15-Dikembe Mutombo, 0 ring
16-Dennis Rodman, 3 rings
17-Webber. 0 & 0

With their new teams, the above list features 24 rings, with numerous Finals appearances, MVPs, DPOYs All-Star appearances.
Virtually every single one made a major impact on their new team after moving, some were the best players on their new teams where they made that impact.

Meanwhile, Dominant Wings that have moved around: Jordan, Mullin, Ray Allen, T-Mac, Vince Carter, Dominique Wilkins, George Gervin, AI, Bernard King, Clyde Drexler.

Every one except 3(The Cousins & Drexler) were past their primes when they changed teams. There are several All-Star appearances, no awards.

Only 2 rings(Allen as the 3rd best player on a team featuring a homegrown closer and imported dominant big). Drexler was imported dominant wing, but he was going to a team where the dominant big was ALSO the reigning MVP and a capable closer in his own right. It still counts, so that is one ring, with one player who joined the defending champion.

Interesting list. Counterintuitive, but I guess a lot of middling swings change teams (RJ variety) but the great ones don't chancge teams.

Would not mind seeing Jrue/Turner for 10+ years. And you can add Iguodala to that too.

Thinking about it some more, I also think one of the factors is that superstar scorers tend to fill the arenas, meanwhile Bigs(unless they have outsized personalities like KG or Shaq) are not really popular casual fan favorites.

Ergo, owners are much more likely to hold on to a premium wing, even beyond the sale date if necessary, if that means the house stays packed and their pockets stay lined.

Hakeem has 2 rings, no?

Not after switching teams.

Exactly. Probably should've made the breakdown more clear, I apologise.

Ryan F reply to steve on May 26 at 12:42

"now it looks like the Sixers are leaning toward Favors, according to what I was told on Monday by a credible source familiar with coach Doug Collins' thinking. "

So he was told by someone who thinks they might know what Collins may be thinking. Sounds like shooting from the hip to me.

I'd really like for them to pick Turner, and do what they can within reason to pry away Indiana's pick and try to get Aldrich or Udoh.

Maybe sweet Lou for Dahntay Jones/Solomon Jones and #10.

steve reply to Ryan F on May 26 at 12:56

You're not getting a top 10 pick for Lou Williams. You're MIGHT get a top 10 pick in the second round.

Ryan F reply to steve on May 26 at 13:12

If you take back D. Jones' 4 more years you might. Lou is a good player, and he has value. He doesn't shoot very well or play much defense but Indiana has shooters and aren't extremely concerned with D.

I think it could be done. You may have to mix and match players, but it isn't crazy to think you could get the #10 in this draft with Lou being the primary piece.

steve reply to Ryan F on May 26 at 15:19

That's true but don't you think Indiana would rather stay where their at and take Bradley? Plus I think they value Jones as a solid role player. I really don't see Lou having top 10 pick value.

Top 10 pick might be a stretch but i think, Lou is valued far more throughout the league than here in Philly, and is on a reasonable contract considering his production (5mil per year for your explosive offensive 6th man ain't a lot). He could net us a pick in the middle of the first though in the 14-20 range IMO.

Dutch reply to Ryan F on May 26 at 12:59

Agreed 100%. Draft Turner and trade for a pick to get Udoh. That's what I'm hoping for as well.

Ford is telling tales, per usual.

Fact: Collins has publicly said that 2-guard is the biggest hole on the roster.
Fact: Collins has publicly stated that he thinks Turner will be a excellent NBA 2-guard.

Ladies & Gentlemen, sometimes 1+1 does equal 2.

mo_speezy reply to Ryan F on May 26 at 15:33

Here's what I don't get:

If the Sixers want Favors, and the Nets want Turner as much as Ford claims they do, why wouldn't the Sixers trade down and try to snatch some assets away from NJ?

C. Lee, perhaps?

If they do really want Favors, that's a legitimate question.

rchap13 reply to Brian on May 26 at 17:13

draft turner 1st then see if they want to trade. You can do that right?

I just realized we have roughly 20 mil in expiring contracts to try and flip around the All-Star break. Things are looking on the "ups" as they say.

The reason I'm for Turner over Favors is that I believe Turner and Wall to be the only players in this draft who could become first level superstars. And I think that has to be this teams primary focus before they can even think about the next step of rebuilding.

Favors would be a great piece to fit with Iguodala and Jrue. he could become a star- I just doubt he will ever be a 1st team All NBA type star. So I see the ceiling of Jrue/Iguodala/Favors to be 50 wins and the 2nd round (although it helps being in the East.)

With my superstar or bust mentality I would take Favors only if you think Turner won't be a superstar. Then I would trade Iguodala and Sam this summer and truly bottom out for a couple of seasons. That way you add some more top 5 picks to put next to Jrue/Favors and hope one will be a superstar.

But I'd rather draft Turner and keep Iguodala (and maybe Sam.)

Like I said elsewhere, Draft Turner. Don't shake things up too much unless you can get an additional top 6 pick (Wes Johnson) or make a small move to get a future bruiser.

Let this roster win a bunch more under Collins. That will dramatically increase the value of their young players on the trade market. Then sometime in the next 3 years find a star athletic center. That could be through FA next summer or waiting 2 more years to do a trade using Brand's expiring and some young prospects for a vet star.

In the meantime we will have 2 years to see if Turner is the lead star we need and how the other young players fit and develop. Worst case scenario,the team can still look to get a new candidate for lead star in 2-3 years when Brand comes off the book. Because Jrue and Turner (and maybe Thad/Speights) have a 10-12 year window, so there really is no urgency to lock ourselves into anything right away (learn from the Brand mistake.)

While best case Turner is a superstar and in 2-3 years the pieces can be in place for a title run.

Agreed. With Turner in the fold, you need a Kendrick Perkins/Ben Wallace/Robin Lopez type. Kendrick Perkins & Lopez were mid 1st round picks(where the Sixers will likely be picking next year), Ben Wallace went undrafted. If you draft Favors, you still have to hope a Manu/Pierce/Kobe drops in your lap somehow. Look at ORL, still struggling to find that wing scorer that can consistently close games.

Disagree on ORL's problems. First, they need a PG who can get the ball to Howard.

Court_visioN reply to Brian on May 26 at 15:56

Orlando just needs a perimeter playmaker. Neither Vince Carter nor Jameer Nelson really fit the bill here.

The perfect running mate for Dwight... It's Jrue Holiday!!! No tell me you don't like the Jrue Favors combo :)

What they need is for Carter to grow some balls or have Nelson morph into Steve Nash(which he did a fairly good impression of during the last game).

If Nelson can continue to impersonate Nash(aka finding open guys, including D12, as well as hitting big shots), then ORL has a chance.

I understand your reasoning, but there is one serious "hole" in it. A STAR athletic center is next to impossible to get. Noone will trade one for anything. That's why big man are drafted higher than they should in the draft. Which is why they end up being busts too (they weren't supposed to be that good in the first place).

I myself am a bit torn on the Turner/Favors dilemma. I still stand that Favors is my pick atm, but only by 55/45 margin.

Not true, see my above post.

All star bigs in their primes move around WAY more than All-Star wings.

Assuming we don't sign Young to an extension and don't trade any of our expiring contracts, how much cap space will we have next summer?

No way to tell. No way to know what the salary cap will be under the new CBA. If it was the same as this year, we might have enough to sign a guy for a bit more than the MLE, say $8M.

Yeah, it was going to be more like 11M, but winning the #2 pick means nearly 2M more salary against the cap.

If they keep Young then we are talking MLE only.

It bothers me that ES repeatedly has said that if the team stands pat they will have max money next summer.

That means he is either lying, lacks understanding of his own teams cap or our numbers here are way off.

Court_visioN reply to tk76 on May 26 at 16:20

or it means the Sixers are planning to make moves to create some cap space in the offseason.

Wait, when did he say they'd have max money next summer? I haven't heard him say that.

He said it 2 days ago on Mike Miss. Said if the Sixers stand pat they will have max money.


I listened to that interview, don't remember hearing those words. I'll have to listen again.

If it's true, the last thing in the world we need is for our GM to be putting false information out to an already under-informed fan base.

The thought of the GM being misinformed is even more troubling.

Although maybe it is a half truth. Maybe ES has decided to trade away Iguodala this summer, which means max money in 2011. He would not say that publicly, but might still hint at his long term plan.

Having max money next season really isn't much of a prize, especially if they draft Turner. Are you going to give Melo max money to play the four with Iguodala, Turner and Jrue?

Who knows? Stefanski is not high on my list in terms of franchise building.

He said near max money according to their last calculations (which were based on the 6th pick not the second). Also we are talking about cap numbers all the time, but what if they actually resign Thad before the season ends. Is it a foregone conclusion that Thad (if he's not traded by the end of next season) will go in the summer as a restricted free agent?

If they want to extend him, they have to do it by Halloween this year, I believe. I'd be shocked, and kind of pissed if that happened to be honest. He's got a lot to prove this year.

His cap hold is 7.5M. They are not going to re-sign him for less than 4.5M, so I doubt that frees up that much money.

Seems to be a much more Favors Group on this thread than the original one posting the question about who the sixers pick should be last week. I wonder if people have been changing their minds or it's that the pro-Turner people have not voiced their opinion. Favors measurements/athleticism are ridiculous. I'm pro Favors. I just can't project his ability to take over games with his very laid back personality. Atleast we know Turner is going to show up on every play. This is Collins pick so hopefully he makes the right choice for the franchise.

I still think if you take a vote, it's going to be heavily favored to Turner, and maybe rightly so. Just so happens Favors people are in a commenting mood this afternoon. :)

If only Turner never had a broken back, and was a little bit more athletic... Than he would've been my clear No.2. As it stands Favors is slightly ahead of him on my board.

And YES i am in a commenting mood today :)

I assume you guys are familiar with the site already, but HoopsHype.com has every teams salaries for like the next four seasons. According to the Sixers page, and it seems fairly accurate, they WOULD have max money to spend in 2011. Doesn't mean they have to spend it all, but there are some decent C and PF options available, restricted and unrestricted. Nene, Horford, M. Gasol, K. Perkins and J. Noah all fit into that category. It also gives them flexibility to trade for guys and not match salary for salary. Hanging onto Igoudala this year would also make a nice sign-and-trade option for Denver or Oklahoma City, with Melo and Durant, respectively. I think we only make periphery moves this season, keep our cap space, and then start to get creative in 2011. I look for Lou and/or Thad to be shopped this summer.

Elton Brand 17,059,728
Andre Iguodala 13,531,750
Samuel Dalembert
Jason Kapono
Louis Williams 5,176,000
Willie Green
Thaddeus Young 3,992,108
Francisco Elson
Marreese Speights 2,721,255
Jrue Holiday 1,741,440
Jason Smith 3,135,279
Allen Iverson
Rodney Carney
Jodie Meeks 884,293
#2 Pick 4,123,200

TOTALS 52,365,053

Thaddeus Young: 7.5M cap hold. If you renounce that money then you cannot sign him.

So let Smith and Thad walk and you dip to 45M (+ 2-3M for #1 pick) meaning 7-9M under the cap. No where near 18M "max" money for vets (13M for max coming off rookie scale.)

Keep Thad and dump Smith and you have 53M ((+ 2-3M for #1 pick) meaning the MLE.

And all of this is assuming the cap doesn't drop to $50M.

Remove Thad, remove Jason Smith, add a first-round pick and that puts you somewhere around $46 or $47M. The cap this season will be somewhere between $54M and $56M. That's not max money, not even close.

So we think ES is relying on Sixers.com. How exactly did he get that Wharton degree :)

Perhaps he knows something we don't. Like who's getting traded this summer (year).

rchap13 reply to Marty on May 26 at 17:24

hoopshype forgot have to add the #2 pick to the salary.

Someone mentioned in passing that Jrue could be the perfect running mate for Dwight Howard. Which reminded me...

2013 Unrestricted Free Agents (the year Brand's contract is done):
Dwight Howard
Al Jefferson
Paul Millsap
Andrew Bynum
Josh Smith
Blake Griffin is Restricted

rjb360 reply to rjb360 on May 26 at 18:43

A point like Jrue (or at least, what we think he will be), and two great passing wings like Turner and Iguodala would be awfully attractive to the game's premiere big man. If they don't win this year, Rashard Lewis' ridiculous backloaded contract is going to make it pretty damn tough to stay competitive. If the Sixers are smart, they should definitely have the chance to offer him max money.

Jrue is great with a premier big because he can drive, shoot and run the P&R.

But Turner/Iguodala probably are not great enough shooters to be the right fit with a premier big. Sure they can drive and dish, but you need wings that help spread the floor.

I don't necessarily agree. The Lakers shot worse than us from three this year, and their bigs have had more than enough room to operate (until the Suns zoned them up, that is).

Orlando is probably on their way to the finals right now if they have Iguodala instead of Vince Carter.

That's because VC is a bum at this point of his career. they would be in equally good shape with a lesser SF like Granger.

3 Minute Show - Reason for Optimism with Thadeus Young


I think everyone at this time last year was very high on Thad. His defensive shortcomings were thought to be correctable given his athleticism and size. Enter Eddie Jordan.

So Philly opens camp and what do they start with? Teaching to PO. How was Thad expected to improve on rebounding/defense? There was no teaching of this. Defense was an afterthought.

Fast Forward. Enter Collins the teacher. Steven A. Smith should have written his article on what Collins will do with Thad and not Iggy today (Or stop him from writing anything all together). Thad is a good kid and he is coachable. I see a dramatic improvement for Thad this year.

deepsixersuede on May 26 at 19:59

I think if they draft Favors that Iggy is gone and they will rebuild ala Okl. City. All 20 to 22 year old kids and compete by 2014. Collins did talk that way at his conference.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking to. Otherwise they might creep back to mediocrity and never get another chance to add topp lottery talent.

That's sort of why I want Turner. I'd rather pick Turner, keep Iguodala and try and go up from there.

deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on May 26 at 20:25

A scenerio that makes sense; draft Favors and preset a Clippers trade for over the summer that allows the Clippers to take the best s.g. available on draft night [Henry?] and trade either Henry or E.Gordon straight up for Iggy, there!s your max cap space!!! Favors,Spieghts,Thad,Gordon and Jrue along with cap room.

The problem with your Oklahoma City comparison is that there is no Kevin Durant. Gordon is not a superstar (and not even close to Iggy at this point and is not projected defensively to sniff him) Jrue is not a superstar and neither is Thad. We would collect guys that were drafted near the end of the lottery and hope that Favors turns out in 2-3 years so we could maybe squeak into the 2nd round.

Possibly Iggy/Lou to Utah for Kiralenko(2 yrs left on contract)/9th pick??

either pick 2/9 for Favors/Bradley or Turner/(Monroe/Udoh)



Sammy/Monroe or Udoh

hey im all 4 thad at the 4 if we draft turner. We are a running team and we need to get all of the easy buckets we can get. And spread the floor with thad.I like thad alot. I would like him more if he gets his rebounding right. If Doug Collins would make thad get back to where he was or better then we have a pretty serious playoff team. Kind of like the thunder without a durant but we got a defensive stopper.
On offense we would 3 players(if we draft turner) that can create their own shot and create for others.
I don't want favors right now because i haven't gave up on speights(or thad)yet. Oh yeah and trade lou.

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