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Dumping Opportunities

1. Would be a great move for the Magic. On the right team Lou could be an impact player- and Orlando would be perfect for him. I severely doubt the Sixers would get much more than a shot in the dark at #29, but if they need to clear off salary this sounds like an option. I'm not sure there are many minutes for Lou on this roster anyway (if they draft Turner.)

2. I don't think Thad has that much trade value. He may be as talented as a late lottery pick, but with only one year left on his rookie scale salary it makes him much less valuable than a late lottery pick.

29 would be a nice place to take Seraphin if he stays in the draft and slips through the 20s. The injury could help that.

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Chuck Norris on Jun 5 at 9:42
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Keep Thad and trade Lou. Keep it simple. We already figured out Lou but still questionable on Thad. With Thads final year of his contract, we'll have a better look next season.

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The Greek reply to Chuck Norris on Jun 5 at 10:17
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Right on, it would be insane to give up on Thad after last year when he had to endure having Louis the loser Williams as a starting point to start the season and Eddie the Jagoff Jordan as a head coach.

This kid can be awesome and hopefully a coach like DC can get it out of him.

I would not bail on Thad because you would not get near equal value and the kid has talent. Also, I'm a big fan, even though I acknowledge he has a long way to go to be a complete player who is a net positive on the floor.

But I see no future for Thad as a "stretch 4." He never has rebounded the ball well going back to college. You can;'t be a "PF" without rebounding- unless you play next to a dominant center like Howard. Having good rebounders like Jrue/Iguodala/Turner would only counter this weakness somewhat, because we art\e talking interior rebounding.

I do see Thad as having a good future as a 6th man, and he could also develop into a good SF if he improves his perimeter defense and ball handling. The talent to be a good SF is there, but the talent to be a good PF is not.

I'm fine with Thad getting a few minutes at PF to mix things up- but that is really more of a small ball gimmick than anything. IMO, defensively Iguodala is far superior as a PF than Thad since Iguopdala can defend the post and rebound.

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AaronMcKie4MVP on Jun 5 at 11:37
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all great teams have to shed themselves of losers. lou is a loser. speights is probably a loser. sammy is a loser as long as he continues to think he can shoot the ball and hurt the team. any effort to have these guys move on is ok in my book.

thad should not be given up on. the guy is a good player and i have seen nothing to think he is a loser.

I think to some extent a team can have what you call "losers" if there are is a good core of talented leaders in place. It is also less of a problem if you are winning games and have a good coach (there is some chicken-egg to this.)

for example, the 90's Bull's had some loser players on the fringes. Cartwright had a low BB IQ like Sam (ironic he now coaches) but he was peripheral enough to not hurt the team. Sam could play a similar role on a good team if he clearly is the 5th option on offense. Another example IMO is Mo Williams. he is a "loser" in some ways, but this is lessened when he defers to Lebron.

My hope would be Turner, Iguodala and Jrue control things enough to set the tone. That way you can benefit from the talent that Speights, Lou and Sam bring and hide their flaws on and off the floor.

On the flip side, you can overachieve with a squad of all high character effort players- but that won't take you that far without top talent.

Its sort of like the Cousins question. I'd be afraid for him to be your #1 "leader" but he'd be great if you already have stars in place.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to tk76 on Jun 5 at 13:26
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maybe you are right. but i dont think cartwright and sam is a good comparison. i call sam a loser because he makes decisions that are easily avoidable- yet hurt us. cartwright was what he was, but i dont see him as a guy who tried to be something else at the expense of the team.

Cartwright was legendary for being a lousy passer and making boneheaded decisions with the ball. Its talked about a bunch in "The Jordan Rules" where Jordan basically did not want cartwright to touch the ball, and Cartwright stood up to him and threatened to kick his ass.

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The Greek reply to tk76 on Jun 6 at 10:00
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Jordan made losers winners, take away Jordan and put in Iguodala and Cartwright would be a loser without a ring.

This team needs to be gutted of its losers.

Lou williams, this guy is a piece of shit.

Sammy, how people want to see this asshole get resigned blows me away.

Willie Greene, he just sucks.

Jason Smith, can't rebound.

Speights belongs on this losers list if DC can't get through to him real soon.

And if Iggy doesn't stop pouting like a little adolescent school girl who had her lolly pop stolen then he belongs on this list. No one will follow someone who doesn't know how to lead, this is the year that fart faced Iggy needs to become a man and have the boys follow him.

1. Lou on the Magic is a nice offensive fit. I see this one as a bit more realistic for the 29th pick. Van Gundy said that they need to address backup PG. Lou could be great with the spacing they provide. Not sure that Lou is more adept than Nelson at feeding Howard, but they are similar. Jameer has less size but still is more of a pure PG than Lou. I think Lou could thrive in running it with Howard though, because he can run it as a scoring PG like Nelson does. Lou is aggressive knows angles with driving lanes and he could lead the league in scoring off the bench. It's a low-risk pick at 29 and SVG would take on the challenge of getting Lou to defend. Very good suggestion.

2. I think this would be a steal if we got this one done. Speights would be a better fit for this trade. New Orleans seemed to thrive with shooters around Chris Paul. Even if they can't really play (Peja, Mo Pete), even with a gunner like Thornton with Collison. Thad doesn't really fit them very well. Possibly Speights as an heir apparent to David West for that pick? That would make more sense and I still don't know if they would do it.

In general, I believe Sixer fans spend too much focus thinking of ways for Comcast to dump salary.

One reason to dump salary is economics. However, it's hard for fans to reason about Comcast's economic motives vis-a-vis the Sixers. At one point I looked up Comcast's SEC filings and my recollection is that the entire Spectacor division - which includes the Sixers, Flyers, and the Wachovia center - only accounted for about 3% of revenues. There are a lot of synergies with the cable and other business, and it is hard for an outsider to fathom the economic import of this or that move to the total Comcast corporation. That is, even if we assume they are only in it for the money it is hard for an outsider to figure out *how* the money equation works for them, though there is reason to believe that they may sell the teams when they feel the market price for them is good.

Another reason to dump salary is to clear space for a future FA signing. But the Sixers FA signings have been so historically disappointing that I wouldn't put much value on the prospect of a FA in the near future. One reason why FA signings often disappoint is because there are usually multiple teams bidding for the services of the more desirable free agents, so the winning bidder must either slightly overpay or else win due to intangibles such as championship prospects or an environment that is particularly desirable to the FA. In the near term, the Sixers are unlikely to be on the positive side of such intangibles so cap space to sign a FA may not be worth too much to the Sixers.

Regarding LouWill and Thad specifically, neither player seems core to the Sixers right now, but neither seems like a great candidate to dump. But are young, both have lower market value now than in the recent past, and both can potentially improve their value by improving their defense and their shooting.

Agree. Honestly, for all their warts, Lou, Thad and Speights are better than the average player drafted outside of the top 10.

Well said TK. Mid first round draft picks as sexy as they sound, are very likely to bring a guy who will be a fringe rotation player at best. Thad, Speights and Lou are all better than that.

And the weirdest thing is, looking at the past drafts, All these guys are top 10 players from their generation. It's silly to trade them for a youngster that has a very good chance to become a bust.

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Charlie reply to tk76 on Jun 5 at 23:07
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I agree too. But what McKie4MVP said is cautionary; even if a player has great talent, the loser mentality can hurt a team more than the talent helps. We can all come up with dozens of examples from NBA history. It's just that Lou seems like a really good guy - if he was one of the guys rolling his eyes at EJ last year, that's not such a bad thing. The coach was driving everybody nuts last year. Thad & Lou will look a lot better with Collins coaching them, if he does, because he'll work with them individually and teach them their roles. But I can see Collins not liking Lou and Brian's idea is probably a good one, except that pick #29 doesn't excite me in this draft - it's Petteri Kapponen. I'd rather have Lou.

Well. I really believe this is an opportunity to get a young big to develop as at least a role player when Sammy leaves. Might find one in the 2nd round also. How can we do that or is it not necessary?

Option B I think is so good if we pick at #11 Gordon Hayward!!

I love him!

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deepsixersuede on Jun 5 at 18:24
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If Turner is the pick at #2 than the sooner they start getting pieces that work with him, the better. I agree that Lou, Thad and Spieghts are talented but other than Marreese, I am not sure the other 2 work with Turner, therefore getting a less talented piece that allows Turner to blossom.

Give me a wing that can shoot or a young role playing big in either of Brian!s scenerios and I am happy. Did you guys notice Whiteside is dropping bigtime on draftexpress.

2 words:

Flip Flops

Don't trade Lou.

Lou + Dalembert + 5 games = Kobe

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=23ofm9p

You know that in 3 years Kobe is on the books for 30M...

And the Sixers would have to throw in the rights for Ricky Sanchez AND Edin Bavcic- and I think that would anger their international fanbase too much to make the move.

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Jemimah reply to tk76 on Jun 6 at 0:06
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He's actually due 90 million in the nex 3 years. I didn't even know we had these international players

From a fan's perspective I don't care if the Sixers have to pay the luxury tax. I don't want to see them trade Lou, Thad, or Young for nothing. Thad is not hopeless, he is a smart mature and hard working person. He has what it takes to improve his weaknesses. Lou doesnt suck, he is an efficient player when you put him in the right situations (4th quarter, huge deficit, or scoring option off the bench). And maybe with a better coach Speights may develop into a decent player.

When it comes to Smith, Green and Kapono I could care less for what they get in return.

Paying the luxury tax isn't really the issue for me in any of these deals. I see moving Lou as freeing up $5M/year in cap space, and I see the role he plays as a luxury. You can find instant offense off the bench at a much cheaper price, and you can get those guys on shorter deals than Lou has right now. Moving him creates more wiggle room to make a needed move down the road for a necessary piece.

In Thad, I see a ticking clock or a time bomb waiting to go off, depending on how he plays this season. If he doesn't show drastic improvement this season, his entire value to the franchise is as an expiring contract. If he does show drastic improvement, then we're in the same boat we were with Lou. Was the improvement simply a push for a contract? Even if he does improve, how much is he worth long-term? What if he doesn't improve, will Stefanski be willing to let him walk, or will he extend him simply because he's one of his guys?

There are a ton of questions swirling about Thad, and they all need to be answered this season. I just see his whole situation as a potential big error for the franchise in the next 13 months and if I could get an asset in return for him right now, I think I'd probably have to pull the trigger. Not so much with Speights, because he has a couple years left on his rookie deal, so there's little-to-no risk involved in holding on to him and seeing what he becomes under Collins. With Thad, though, time has almost run out on making a sound decision on what type of player he's going to be, or more importantly, how much money he's worth in an extension.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Brian on Jun 5 at 23:01
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+1

Unfortunately, as tk has said, the fact that Thad is on the last year of his rookie deal means we're not going to get fair value for him...but I think there is still value there. I hadn't thought about the Hornets, but that now makes three teams in the top 12 (LAC, NOH, MEM) who could potentially be interested in trading for Thad, and there are enough REALLY interesting bigs that should be on the board there that I think we really need to see what we can do. I like the lotto-protected 1 next year idea that tk suggested in another thread...if we can package Thad with that to get Aldrich, Udoh or whatever big DiLeo and Collins think fits the best, we could have an entire lineup of quality young talent - coached by the best coach we've had since LB.

If we came out of this draft with Turner AND Aldrich or Udoh, I would crap in my pants.

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Harvey reply to bebopdeluxe on Jun 6 at 0:11
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yuk, I just don't like Aldrich. I would rather have Whiteside or Patterson. I just see more potential in them. I want a starter to replace Dalembert, which will give us the felxibility to trade him. Even if we do resign Dalembert, the guy is still in his 30s.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Harvey on Jun 6 at 11:54
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i know he is white, but cmon, you guys are haters

Dalembert was born in '81.

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bill reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 9:44
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Brian is right. We'll either over pay Thad or lose him for nothing. He's not better than Iggy and he can't play the 4 for more than a few minutes a game. We're stuck with Brand's contract and just have to accept that he might give us 15/7 for 25 minutes a night at the 4/5.....so we overpaid for it but it's stupid to trade the 2 pick to alleviate Comcast's payroll. Getting back to Thad; I'd trade him for Whiteside and take the chance so that we won't over pay Sammy (who will have a good year for the new contract....remember the Piston series?). I also like Favors over Turner for we could have our front line set for years on good contracts. Favor's upside is too much to pass on plus noone talks about the fragility of Turner and now that he'll be in the major leagues, guys will bang him. Furthermore, on defense we have two out of three positions covered by great defensive players so getting a one dimensional #2 is easy (...Meeks??? or Lou?)

But Turner is multi-dimensional. Good defensive player.

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Jason Mess on Jun 5 at 23:35
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What about Orton? if we did get another pick and he was available
?

Derrick Favors reminds me of Sharone Wright.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Marty on Jun 6 at 11:57
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LOL. i hope not. but people need to realize that there is a risk of that outcome. the franchise is in too fragile a state to make that pick

Seriously though, how many big guys come out of college every year with identical measurables and just don't have the basketball IQ or mental toughness to make it. His personality troubles me...a little too soft spoken for me and the fact he wanted to stay close to home for college makes me think he could struggle adjusting to the NBA life. Not for nothing, he averaged 7 points and 7 rebounds in his games versus Duke this year. Would've liked to see a little more effectiveness against the likes of Brian Zoubek. There's no doubt he could turn into something - but is it worth waiting three years to get another Al Horford when you could get the actual Al Horford next summer in FA? I want Turner.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 6 at 10:26
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I doubt they move into top 15 territory when it looks like Whiteside, Serraphin and maybe Orton are there at 20 or lower. If they love Udoh than giving up next years lottory protected or even top 5 protected may be worth the risk. I don!t think he or Aldrich get past 7 or 8 anyway.We all presume a move into top 15 is to get a big but they have fooled us before, suppose they really like George or Henry as a compliment to Turner.

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Reginald on Jun 6 at 12:41
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How would you rank the big men in this draft?

1. Favors
2. Cousins
3. Monroe
4. Patterson
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

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AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Reginald on Jun 6 at 12:51
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dure , aldrich is white. definitely cant be a good player. im sure you guys sang the same tune about bogut and love. fukkin racists.

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deepsixersuede reply to AaronMcKie4MVP on Jun 6 at 13:25
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I don!t consider Patterson a big; he reminds me of Landry, a guy that can score the ball but doesn!t rebound or protect the paint. My top 5 bigs are; Favors, Aldrich,Cousins,Davis and [Monroe,Udoh].

I look at Aldrich and Cousins as I look at Spieghts and Robin Lopez. There is no comparison talentwise or upside wise but one will be a solid pro and the other may implode. I know you don!t like Sam but I think Aldrich can be a Sam level or better center, and I mean that as a compliment.

Those guys were highly skilled coming into the draft- giving them more upside. Cole Aldrich has not displayed much skill beyond rebounding and shot blocking- but at least those are the two most important things.

Bogut is Australian he doesn't count. Also Kevin Love has a post up game, outside shooting ability, and passing ability. Something that Aldrich doesn't have. Love was worth a top 5 pick, Aldrich is a career backup that fans will love because of his hard work. Id rather take a gamble on a big who has the potential to be a starter or a bust than Aldrich.

How about Chris Kaman?

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eddies' heady's on Jun 6 at 12:47
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Agree with others that this team MUST shed itself of its homegrown 'losers'. Regardless of the roles that Marreese, Lou, and (sort of) Sam play, when team concepts are factored in, on and off the court, they are equivalent to a lit fuse.

As fans we tend to hold out hope and extend belief that because these players are members of our favorite teams they will eventually change their stripes. It doesn't usually happen, particularly with this new breed of player that gets contaminated with the summer AAU circuit and limited, if any, college.

It was stated above that Thad, Lou, and Speights are all better than a fringe rotation player so it isn't wise to trade them for mid-first rounders. I would argue that Lou and Speights would be bench fodder and nothing more than a fringe rotation player on the upper echelon teams in the league. As examples, Lou would be lucky to see the spot minutes that Nate Robinson is seeing with the Celts and wouldn't sniff a call from the bench over Jordan Farmar or Shannon Brown of the Lakers. Speights isn't as good a player or shooter as Josh Powell (who sees no time), and doesn't give you but 1/5 of what Glen Davis gives the Celts. Ergo, they really are fringe rotation guys if you're of the contender status.

We're so accustomed to being on the mediocre platform as Sixers fans that we all, to a fault, feel chicken shit can be turned into chicken salad more times than not. If you miraculously turned some of these chicken shit guys into chicken salad, they'd have already passed the good-by date; hence, their previous 'losers' mentalities.

At some point, any point, you have to cut bait. Your on-court losers and off-court cancers are a damn good start.

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Old School SixerFan reply to eddies' heady's on Jun 6 at 13:19
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The difference in opinion is whether or not a year under Eddie Jordan with no defense taught or emphasized, poor use of players in an ill-fitting offense and failure to use players in combinations and sets that utilize their strengths and minimize the effect of their weaknesses makes them poor players or simply delays their development. I believe we had a wasted year and we don't really know what Speights, Young and even Carney can really do. I assume you believe that if they had capability to be solid NBA players it would have been apparent even under Jordan. I just don't know and want to stay the course at least for this year to avoid making a serious mistake.

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deepsixersuede reply to Old School SixerFan on Jun 6 at 13:33
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I agree with what you just said. My reason for moving Lou and Thad is type of fit, with Turner, not whether they can play or not. Look at the other Williams, Mo, is he a winner? Sit outside and shoot jumpers while Lebron draws all the attention.

If Favors is the pick than Thad and Lou will get their chance and I am fine with that. Eddie, big baby has a defined role and that helps, also good vets and a quality coaching staff, if after a year under Collins Marreese doesn!t improve than I will agree with you.

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eddies' heady's reply to deepsixersuede on Jun 6 at 14:14
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Respect your wanting to wait but it's just putting off the inevitable. Jordan can't be crowned the outlier here, because Marreese and Lou showed the same tendencies under DiLeo, while Lou was also the same under Mo Cheeks. Like the old saying goes, you can't change people they can only change themselves.

And sure Big Baby has a defined role, but it wasn't given to him, he earned it, by doing more than just shooting (the 1/5 of what Speights gives you). He rebounds, he passes, he hustles, and most importantly he *tries* and *gives effort* playing defense along with his mid-range shooting.

To me, this mindset is akin to walking gingerly with an already cracked egg in your basket; hoping that it won't crack even more, yet it is already spoiled.

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johnrosz reply to eddies' heady's on Jun 6 at 16:03
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Has Thad gotten off of your shit list? Can't disagree with anything you said about Leanin Lou and to a lesser extend Speights. I think Speights played most of the year hurt, maybe I'm dreaming but I'd like to see what he can contribute with a coach that will light a fire under his ass.

I already know how Lou will react to Collins, bad attitude when he can't get on the floor. These poor mans AI combo guards are a dime a dozen in the league, I really hope Lou is gone by opening night.

Its sort of a back-handed complement... but I see Speights as a guy who could build off of success. I see him putting in more effort if he gets rewarded by positive attention. On the flip side, I think he responds poorly when he is in the doghouse.

The problem is that if he does not learn to be self motivarted he will stay in the doghouse and his career likely will spiral down to being a fringe player. But I can still see a scenario where he taps into his potential and becomes a beast- but the right coach will have to "lead him to water."

In my alternate world, Speights would have been given the starting PF position his rookie year when Brand went down with the shoulder injury. And Speights would have run with the success and attention and dedicated himself. But instead he remained glued to the bench, sulked and declined.

Obviously it would be better if Speights was self motivated- but that does not mean he has to be a bust.

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deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Jun 6 at 16:50
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Me and my brother discussed the same thing but like the chicken and the egg, how do you start the process? If Marreese comes in in shape and kicks Elton!s ass in camp, does he get the job? He doesn!t seem to handle being sat down or pushed; well Dougie, good luck!!

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bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Jun 6 at 21:04
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Word, tk...I remember some WHACK-JOB over on RealGM who wouldn't keep his fuckin' mouth shut about starting Speights when Brand went down...instead they went to that "fools gold" shit of playing Thad at the 4 instead...

I wonder what happened to that psycho poster, anyway?

You and me both...

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eddies' heady's reply to Old School SixerFan on Jun 6 at 15:41
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This is just an example of post hoc fallacy. Jordan's flaw here was he magnified what was already there. It existed, EJ just shone a light upon it.

We're so accustomed to being on the mediocre platform as Sixers fans that we all, to a fault, feel chicken shit can be turned into chicken salad more times than not.

This is so true. But what OldSchool says is true also. I'd really like to see what Carney can do as a backup 2-guard you bring in to play mad dog defense. He gets points in transition and can shoot (though he hasn't proved he can get his own shot). He costs very little and is a top-level athlete who can be useful with a good coach. (Of course, this might be a case of chicken salad syndrome.) If Lou goes, Carney can be the 3rd or 4th guard and we'd have size in the backcourt no matter who's in the lineup, which is something I know Collins likes (Jordan, Stackhouse, Hill, Houston - didn't he play Terry Mills at the 2?). I have a feeling he's not gonna like Lou. They pretty much have to keep Green.

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eddies' heady's reply to charlie ace on Jun 7 at 11:32
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It may be just another case of salad syndrome on Carney.

If you remember, help me with this - what was it that Carney was/wasn't doing that last year under Mo Cheeks (before he got traded to Minn.)? If I remember correctly Mo had to have a one-on-one with him to prod him to do something within his game that he had not been doing and was struggling tremendously. Can't remember if it was Mo wanting him to take three's or not take so many three's or maybe it was something else? Whatever it was, it was made public in the local papers.

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Jason Mess on Jun 6 at 16:16
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So I guess we should thank EJ.

http://vault.ncaa.com/?game=306SR169_s01&seconds=90

Free and legal game stream from NCAA... stream from Turner's last game of the year. Loss against Tennessee in Sweet Sixteen- but Turner had a solid game.

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Sat reply to tk76 on Jun 6 at 20:18
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When does he start playing well? It's been 5 minutes and he hasnt done anything

He definitely starts poorly.

Here was my take:

Interesting how the superior athlete Prince gave Turner some problems with his defense. But Turner still looked amazing out there- particularly with how automatic he was from 5-20ft with his jumper (Kobe-esque, but obviously less competition.) Also probably right between Jrue and Iguodala as a passer. Less creative than Jrue, but really seems to know where his teammates are on the floor. Also, like Jrue, tremendous ambidextrous dribble.

Was a good game. Tenn has some amazing athletes and much more depth than OSU. Turner's teammates sort of had AI syndome, in that they were just watching Turner out there. In fact Turner at PG reminded me of AI at PG, in that he was unselfish, but not a pure creator. Turner will benefit from having better teammates and could really dominate if he has good shooters and other weapons that allow him to go one on one without help.

That's not quite what he meant.

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deepsixersuede on Jun 6 at 22:28
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Playing off of Brian!s deal with Memphis, would you guys do this deal? Lou and Jason for Thabeet; Memphis has cap room and is looking at Bledsoe as a guy to pair with Mayo. From our view is Thabeet more of a risk than the bigs going after #10? Connecticut seemed to fall apart this year when he left.

The problem with Thabeet is the #2 pick contract. That's a big number and I think that's too much of a gamble. I'd probably be pushing to decline his option years to free up the money anyway.

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deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Jun 6 at 23:36
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I would look at it as he making 500,000 less than Lou and could he be our future starting center. As you have said Lou can be replaced for less money and if Collins liked the idea maybe we try it. Would Memphis? Rather than reach for Bledsoe they can get Orton or Whiteside or maybe even Udoh at #12.

I'd be surprised if they gave up on the #2 pick after one season, that's a lot of crow to eat. Personally, I don't think he's ever going to be a viable starting center in the league. He's more raw and uncoordinated than Sam ever was.

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deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Jun 7 at 0:16
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Yea, they may not but I think they wish they took Curry or Evans about now. He [Thabeet] may be too soft for Collin!s liking anyway and I agree he may be a career backup.

I hope we never have to have a similar conversation about the Sixers #2 overall pick.

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