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Don't Count On Next Summer

smh1980 on May 27 at 1:26


I had stated on the last post that if Favors is the guy we select then we really have a while until we are going to be good. A contender could be in place 4 years from now.

I love Iggy and I think he deserves better then what he has with this team and how he's been perceived by this city. I worry about an athlete like him breaking down when he hits 30 (Vince carter anyone.) This would be the time when we start having our young guys coming into their prime and Iggy will most likely be on his way down.

With Utah sitting at 9 in the draft I think they would be thrilled to get a player of Iguodala's caliber. He would really improve that team and I think they would rather take him more so then a guy in this draft. I think he deserves to go to a contender like Utah and we get a late lottery pick and continue to rebuild. Ray Allen was worth the 5th pick a few years ago and I think Iggy's value is reasonable for a 9th pick. Kirelenko comes off the books in 2 years so a package could be made for a trade if we are going with the youth movement. I would take Favors at # 2 and Avery Bradley at # 9. We might want to wait to do a trade to make sure Bradley was still on the board at that spot.

We could stay with Iggy this year and wait and see. I trust Collins will probably want to do that. I'm fine with that too. I just don't see him on this team still when we are finally ready to be a contender. He could really shine on a team like Utah. We'd obviously be doing him a favor by doing this and giving him a chance for a championship next year.

The #9 pick is a fair price for Iguodala? I'm going to have to disagree with that.

Jeff reply to Brian on May 27 at 1:37

If the NBA could re-do the 2004 draft, where to you think Iguodala gets picked?

He may very well go 2nd, although other people might argue in favor of the following:
Devon Harris
Al Jefferson
Josh Smith
Jameer Nelson

Some people might argue Kevin Martin too but your right Igoudala would probably be picked 2nd. Of course that's more a reflection of how weak the 2004 draft was than Igoudala.

It definitely wasn't weak. It just wasn't the '03 draft which most people would compare it to.

I guess weak wasn't the best term to use but considering it really only produced one consistent all-star level talent, I would say it wasn't a good draft. Besides Howard any non-bust from that draft is just the 2nd or 3rd best player on a good team.

I don't think anyone can compare the 2003 draft class to another. 2003 was such an aberration (4 all-league players, 8 all-stars) that it probably will not be seen again.

smh1980 reply to Brian on May 27 at 1:48

What would be fair in your eyes for Iggy in the draft? Top 5?

Here is the ESPN's breakdown on Avery Bradley:

Explosive scorer
Very quick
Long arms
Wiry strong
Big-time vertical leap
Terrific first step
Good midrange shooter
Lockdown defender


Undersized for his position
Lacks NBA 3-point range on his jumper

Summary: May 13 Update: (Vegas Workout Report) Freshmen John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins and Derrick Favors may be all the rage at the top of the draft, but in April of 2009, ESPNU ranked Texas combo guard Avery Bradley as the top prospect from the high school class of 2009. Bradley didn't dominate in college the way Wall or Cousins did, though. He started the season coming off the bench and didn't really get it going until midseason. After that, his play was up-and-down. He'd score 29 points one night and get just 3 points the next.
But a few things became clear over the course of the season. First, Bradley was, hands down, the best perimeter defender in college basketball. His physical, up-in-your-grill approach frustrated virtually everyone he matched up with.

Second, Bradley has the type of elite quickness and explosiveness that has come to define a new breed of top NBA guards, like Rajon Rondo and Russell Westbrook.

What Bradley lacked was a concrete position, a definitive role on his team and a sense of confidence.

NBA teams have been all over the place on his evaluations. A few have looked at him as a late lottery pick. Others have him as a bubble first-rounder. I've sort of split the difference all year on the Big Board and have had him consistently in the late teens to early 20s on our Top 100.

After spending two days watching him both in drills and in 3-on-3 play, I think it's time to move Bradley up into the late lottery.

I'm still not sure if he's a pure point guard, and that's a serious drawback. But everything else looks pretty good. He's super-quick and can change speeds on a dime. He showed an excellent jumper, with NBA 3-point range. He displayed the ability to score from just about everywhere on the floor. And when he got into it with the likes of Sherron Collins and Armon Johnson, his stifling defense gave them lots of problems.

Bradley measured 6-foot-1½ in socks and 6-3 in shoes, but has an impressive 6-7 wingspan, ran a blazing 3.03 seconds in a three-quarter-court sprint and showed off an impressive 37.5-inch vertical jump. Those numbers are quite similar to his two closest comps, Westbrook and San Antonio's George Hill. And like Westbrook and Hill, no one is exactly sure what position Bradley plays. He sees the floor fine, but he rarely makes a showstopping pass.

I spoke with Bradley after the workouts about his up-and-down season at Texas. He said he felt he was on par with the more heralded freshmen like Wall and Cousins. What he lacked was a coach who turned the keys over to him. Texas had seniors like Damion James and Dexter Pittman and he tried to fit in and defer to them -- a role he said Rick Barnes asked him to play.

I think he'll be in serious consideration for a few lottery teams, like the Indiana Pacers, Memphis Grizzlies and Toronto Raptors (who sent a scout to the workout), that could use help at the point.

Jeff reply to smh1980 on May 27 at 1:54

Sounds like Thad minus terrific first step, midrange shooting, and lock-down defending.
Hmmm....I'm interested.

You're talking just for a draft pick, with nothing else involved? Yeah, it would have to be top five, maybe top four.

I don't know, are we a better team with Wes Johnson and Evan Turner than we are with Iguodala and Evan Turner? We're younger and cheaper, maybe better balance on offense, because I think Johnson is going to be an excellent shooter. Much worse on defense. I'd probably consider it for a top 5 pick, but that can't happen until after july 1st, and I doubt any of the teams with cap space will be trading their top five pick plus $12+M of cap space for Iguodala, straight up.

paul reply to Brian on May 27 at 16:09

"I don't know, are we a better team with Wes Johnson and Evan Turner than we are with Iguodala and Evan Turner?"

No, you do know. The answer is "no." Johnson may be a better pure shooter than Ig already but whether he will develop in the near future (or ever) into a better all around scorer is questionable. And, of course, one might reasonably predict that he will never do numerous other things as well as Ig. Ig has already proven that he is a elite all around player and has played at just below all star level for a few years now. For all we know, the quality of Wes Johnson's career may never get beyond the level of another Syracuse product: Billy Owens.

btw, I love Bradley. Not sure he's worth the #9 pick, but he's definitely a guy I'd target in this draft if I could pick up another pick. He's not a guy I'd trade Iguodala for, if that's the question, though.

I think Ford's overrating Bradley's first step and midrange game. He does have a good first step, but he doesn't have much clue on how to use it. His average of less than 2 fta's is incredibly disturbing.

Overall though, I'd love to replace guys like Louis Williams and Willie Green with guys like Bradley. I'd love to get another pick and take him. For our current (RE: post lottery) team, I might have him ahead of someone like Xavier Henry.

I still dont get what clearing the cap by trading Iggy and taking 400 steps back in the wing department is going to do for us. Seriously - for just the #9 pick? That would be one of the worst trades in NBA history. We already know what we have in Iguodala.

smh1980 reply to Rodney Buford on May 27 at 12:58

One of the worst in NBA history? I seriously doubt that. How can a # 5 pick for Ray Allen be considered a great pick for both sides but Iggy for # 9 is soooo bad? Ray Allan atleast had some all-star games under his belt. We're talking about 4 spots.

Ray Allen was 32 and coming off serious ankle problems. Iguodala's 26 and never misses a game. There's a big difference.

Are you saying Boston overpaid for Ray Allen? I think it was a fair trade all around.

What draft pick would you want in return for Igoudala? 4th? If the Timberwolver were to give us the 4th and another piece (future #1, Gomes or Love) I would have to consider that deal. Trading for Jefferson wouldn't make us any better but I think he is a little bit more talented than you give him credit for. He has just been injured a lot.

Jason reply to Chodeburger on May 27 at 14:16

If you could get the 9th pick for Iguodala straight up without taking any salary back you'd be getting a great value (note would be a bad trade because losing his salary really wouldn't change much, i don't think it's enough to get us a good enough talent or enough cap space to make a difference. No way Iguodala's value is a 4th pick straight up, If iguodala was on a cheaper contract, then yes he'd be worth the 4th pick in this draft+ Wolves 16. But i think you guys are underestimating how much Iguodala's contract kills his value.

Jeff reply to Jason on May 27 at 21:11

I think you're overestimating your ability to understand worth and value in the NBA.

Can you explain to me why trading Iguodala, a talented guy who has never been injured, for a less talented guy who has a checkered health record is a good thing?

And no, I'm not saying Boston overpaid for Allen, what I'm saying is that Allen wasn't the player when that trade went down that Iguodala is right now, and he was making MORE money than Iguodala is. Ergo, if Allen's value was the #5 pick, Iguodala's value should be higher than that.

Jason reply to Brian on May 27 at 14:49

it 100% isn't, that's why i put "note would be a bad trade" , but a 9th str8 up without us taking any salary back is fair value for iguodala at this point. simply put Iguodala is unmovable, only way we get a good trade is if someone else makes a mistake.

Phoenix, Dallas, Houston and Cleveland all reportedly had interest in Iguodala at the trade deadline this season, in fact they were willing to take on Dalembert's contract in order to get Iguodala. How that qualifies him as immovable is beyond me.

There's one NBA city in this country where Iguodala has little to no value, unfortunately for him, it's Philadelphia (at least if you ask most of the fans and Stephen A Smith).

So you would trade a top 4 pick for Igoudala straight up? I would take that in a second. To be honest even though there are some bad GM's out there I can't imagine one making that trade. Don't you think your overvaluing him a little bit? I mean he's a good player and would help any team that traded for him but if the Wolves or any other team in the lottery (Utah excluded) traded for him would they become contenders? I would think that if you are picking in the top 5 a team would be looking for a player that could make them contenders.

Mike Miller and Randy Foye. That was the price of the #5 pick last season. Is Andre Iguodala worth more?

That was a horrible trade and I gaurantee if the Wizards GM got a do-over he would take that trade back in a second.

Jason reply to Chodeburger on May 27 at 15:30

I think that Iguodala's value to the sixers is more than it is to any team that has the ability to make a fair trade for him. Only teams that would value Iguodala as much as sixers do are contenders, but they usually don't have enough valuable young players/picks to make a good offer. Odds are we will be seeing Iguodala here for a while lol(hopefully, if he's not odds are we got flat out taken advantage of in a trade. I really wish Iguodala had a no trade clause just for the sake of preventing a bad trade.)

Your right a bad team would have no use for Igoudala becuase he wouldn't make them any better. They would still be in the lottery or stuck in basketball purgatory like we've been the 2 years before Jordan. His skills would be valuable on a good team that can contend for a ring. Sadly unless we get extremely lucky we're not going to be at that level for awhile. That's why I would be interested in the Utah idea being floated around.

And I really don't care at all whether any of the teams in the top four would trade the pick for Iguodala. I'm not saying trade him for a top-four pick, you're asking me what I think a fair haul is, in return for him. That's my price. I need a guy in return who has a decent shot of being as good as Iguodala is right now in a couple of seasons, otherwise I'm not trading him.

twolves are dumb reply to Brian on May 27 at 10:36

i think we can take advantage of minny being so desperate here (and stupid). they need a wing so bad. so would you do iggy for al jefferson and the 16th pick? With the 16th pick you can pick up a shooting guard like henry or james anderson who are falling around there and can both shoot three pointers.

no youre running out a lineup up jrue, xavier/anderson, turner, al jefferson, and sammy. this lineup has shooters, low post scoring, and strong rebounding. youre going away from running, but this lineup has all the needs to play a strong half court game.

i know many people value jefferson way less than iggy, and i fit that boat as well. i think iggy is a great player. but if we can get a potential 20/10 guy and a starting shooting guard capable of dropping 3's at 40%, i think you can pull the trigger at that deal. maybe ask for the #23 pick as well try to pick up a back center like alabi for when sammy leaves. but i dont know if they would give up that pick as well.

i think the twolves would do it because they could run out a lineup or rubio, brewer, iggy, love, and cousins.

i'd hate to trade iggy, but if we can get two quality starters to play with jrue and turner, i think i would do it.

Absolutely 100% would not make that trade. Jefferson is not a very good player at all, and this doesn't even help you against the cap. No way.

Patience? You won't get this from Philadelphia fans.

I really think we just need to wait it out one season and see what Collins brings to this team.

Hopefully there won't be a lockout. Can you imagine how fat Speights would get?

Vegas should put a line on Cousins' body fat after the lockout vs. Speights' body fat after the lockout.

By the way, I should've mentioned it above, but this doesn't only apply to Iguodala. Trading Brand right now is a very bad idea as well unless someone makes you a stupid offer. You're going to have to pay a premium to get out of that money, and that premium is undoubtedly going to be an asset in the form of a young player, a pick, or an even worse contract coming back. There's no need for that, the longer Brand is here from this point, the shorter his remaining contract, the higher his value.

Court_visioN reply to Brian on May 27 at 2:46

i've been saying this since the Sixers got the #2 pick. The Sixers need to just draft Turner or Favors, let that team grow, adding a couple pieces along the way, and when Brand becomes an $18 million expiring contract flip him for a piece.

Like Doug Collins said, there is a certain element of luck involved with these things, and hopefully there will be a team, when that time comes, that wants to shed salary and would be willing to part with a major piece to do so. Kind of like what the Lakers did with Memphis to get Gasol.

smh1980 on May 27 at 5:09

Just saw the results from the Combine for Favors/Turner

Max Verticle Jump Height: 12' 1.5 "
Max Verticle: 35.5"

Max Verticle: 34.5"

Favors/Turner both tested comparably to Dwight Howard/Brandon Roy.

I'm still a Favors fan with this data. Could you imagine if Dwight Howard had a PG to feed him the ball with the potential that Jrue Holiday possesses? We can't pass up on his talent playing alongside Holiday. I'm sure Doug Collins was watching Dwight Howards game last night. His decision just got a little tougher come draft day.

paul reply to smh1980 on May 27 at 16:27

I wouldn't get too hung up on these combine measurement numbers as they're not a great predictor of success in the league. Kevin Durant was the only player at his combine who could not lift the weight one time! That didn't stop Seattle from drafting him second and look at him today. As a recall, Jason Smith had pretty good measurements (other than comparatively short arms) and agility/strength numbers for a big man but he's barely hanging on in the league. Look over some figures for past combines and you can see that other athletes with great combine numbers never made it in the league.

I wonder what Charles Barkley's standing jump figures would have been? Certainly his standing reach would have been pretty low for a prospective NBA power forward.

deepsixersuede on May 27 at 8:22

I have a funny feeling that now that we have a good coach both Sam AND Kapono may have more value to keep at less money than letting go for a player. If Turner is picked Kapono has more value than Thad to me because his skill set benefits our 2 best players [Turner and Iggy].Sam also fits if Turner is the pick because, like Iggy, he can concentrate on his strengths and not worry about scoring, etc. .

If Favors is the pick than clearing money and acquiring young assets would be my goal. If Iggy gets me cap space, a young piece, and a future #1 than I do it because his departure allows this team to get 2 more top 10 picks before becoming real good. Minn., Clippers and Sac. all have cap space, impatient fan bases and the need to get good fast so maybe Iggy gets a real good package from one of those teams. With Collins here to teach I believe we will show patience knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Yeah, if Turner is picked, I can't see why they wouldn't shop Thad pretty hard. I know Collins mentioned how he sees Thad as an undersized PF, but with Brand and Speights already on the roster at that position, what we really need to complement them is a physical bruiser down there. Honestly, Thad's kind of the opposite of what we need.

SF: Iggy, Kapono
PF: Brand, Speights

I say, shop Thad for a backup point guard or backup center.

paul reply to Dutch on May 27 at 16:00

My feelings exactly. Thad for a mid-first round pick pick (and maybe some other considerations from both teams involved) and use that draft pick for a backup center or point guard.

Tom Moore on May 27 at 10:21

Luukko on the Sixers' eight coaches in a little over seven years: "That's something we can't have in this organization. That's been very disappointing. You can't create an identity when there's that much instability. That's why bringing in a guy of Doug's caliber, we expect him to be here for years."

Tom Moore on May 27 at 10:30

One thing teams can do -- such as the Sixers next summer and a bunch of clubs this year -- if they're under the cap is to take back more salaries than they give out. For example, acquire a player making $11 million for one at $5 million. For teams up against the luxury tax (such as Philly this year), that's a viable option.

If they're under whatever the new cap is, that is an option. So is taking on bad expiring contracts and picks. It's never a bad thing to be under the cap, and they probably will be, but actively making the roster much worse in the hopes that you'll land a max-deal player is a different animal altogether, and they don't need to be in that frame of mind at this point.

Is there a veteran out there the sixers can trade for with the expiring contracts of kapono,green,dalembert plus young peices such as speights/williams/young? Something similar to the Garnett trade. I was thinking a sign and trade for Chris Bosh.

jkay reply to Denial on May 27 at 13:49

.....err yeah, I dont think the Raptors will like that offer.

If Bosh goes somewhere with LeBron or Wade, he's going to do fine. If he goes somewhere for max money to be the man, that team is going to struggle. I'm not a fan of his, and I find the sudden increase in muscle mass on the eve of his free agency a bit coincidental.

johnrosz on May 27 at 14:12

If they make a deal before this roster even gets to practice together under Collins that would be a real shame. I'd just like to see how Turner/Iguodala/Young plays itself out before making any hasty deals. EJ screwed this team up so badly I don't think it's easy to gauge the youngsters based off last season.

Everyone seemed to comment on the fact that trading Iguodala for the #9 pick is a ridiculous idea due to the lack of value we'd get back for him.

Nobody seemed to comment on the reason for trading Iguodala, though. I think it's fair to say that he will most likely begin to decline athletically right when Jrue and our #2 pick begin to hit their prime.

So, is it really worth keeping Iguodala around if he won't be at his best when the rest of our young team is?

Do we think Iguodala will make up for what he loses with age, with what he gains from experience in the league? Will he become more crafty?

Should we hold onto Iguodala for this year assuming his value will go up and we can get back more for him next summer? Or is now the time to trade him if we know we are going to move him?

I'm an Iguodala fan, and I would hate to see him go. But timing seems pretty important when building a contender in the NBA.

At what age are you projecting a decline in Iguodala's game? With the way he works and keeps himself in shape, I seriously doubt he's going to lose a step before 30, which is when his current contract expires.

scott reply to Brian on May 27 at 14:27

I did not think about the fact that his contract will expire when he's 30.

I was thinking that Jrue will probably hit his prime around 25 or 26. So in 5 years (wow 5 years) Iguodala will be 31. At that point I imagine he won't be playing 40 mins a game for a whole season.

Maybe it's actually better to keep Iguodala so we can use his expiring contract to trade for a quality player right when Jrue is about to hit his prime.

Thinking about this just makes me realize how young Jrue is. Wow he is young. With his vision he could end up being so crafty as he gets more experience in the league. I think I need to buy a Holiday jersey.

For me, the idea is to start building now, get Jrue and Turner/Favors into the playoffs early in their careers, and then when the older pieces expire, they've got experience under their belts and as a team, you have a good idea of their strengths/weaknesses and the cap flexibility to fill out a roster around them.

Marty reply to scott on May 27 at 14:33

I offered a similar trade the other day, and although I would have no problem going to camp with Igoudala on the team, if you could make this trade, I would. AI + Jason Smith to Utah for AK47 & #9. Utah could lose Boozer,but they still have Millsap. Add Kobe stopper (Phil Jackson's words) at SF and Utah is still a credible contender in the West. If they can resign Boozer, they could always shop Millsap whose got one of the most reasonable contracts in the NBA (6 mil a yr). We get a SF that can do a lot of the things that Igoudala can do, just not quite as well, plus we also add a top ten pick. AK47 comes off the cap after the season, and even though signing Carmelo is a long-shot, trading for anyone becomes a lot easier.

Also, and I haven't seen anyone mention this, but with the new Nets owner saying his team will make the playoffs this year and being Russian, maybe it's possible we could flip AK47 and #9 for #3 and take Favors.

If you could have Turner and Favors, would you sacrifice Igoudala and J. Smith?

scott reply to Marty on May 27 at 14:45

I would give up Iguodala and J. Smith for Favors and Turner.

Can't say I agree that NJ would trade the #3 pick for AK47 and #9.

I wonder what it would realistically take to obtain a second top 5 pick in this draft. Cause that would be incredible. Might be next to impossible, though.

shawn reply to Marty on May 27 at 14:46

the second trade does not seem realistic, and I just do not see anyone at 9 that would be as useful as Iguodala running with the youngin's. comon guys, hes not that old. If you want to know why our cap is stretched thin, its because we signed a PF at 25min/game player @18 m avg for the next 900 years coming off serious knee surgery.

Agreed that Brand is the problem but he doesn't have any value around the league, which Igoudala does. I mean at this point we are stuck with Brand unless Stefanski does something really dumb (trading #2). I think the reason people, myself included, would think about trading Igoudala is because we could hopefully get another piece that would be able to grow with Jrue and the #2 pick.

Shawn reply to Chodeburger on May 27 at 16:38

The only way that would make sense is if you got salary relief right? This would mean, your #9 pick and the salary cap space you relieved from getting rid of iggz contract and taking the AK expiring deal, you'd sign someone else to fill in the gap. I'd say that is as big a risk move as any thing else. Landing good free agent talent at AK's expiring deal rate has been as challenging as drafing someone who even gets MINUTES at 9. So two moves, two that are very risky. It doesn't make sense.

Tom Moore on May 27 at 14:50

From what I understand, the Sixers won't have enough money to sign a max player unless they unload another salary in a lopsided trade.

I guess you guys have all seen that Chad Ford has us taking Favors now at #2. Maybe i am just a waffler, but i am down with the idea, especially if Favors projects as a 5. This is my rationale, you draft Turner, you plug that gaping hole at 2 guard, you have Collins, you are better, you make the playoffs like you should and you are still stuck trying to find that big man, that final piece that brings it all together. Ultimately, you don't really become a contender without a semi-dominant big man. Now, can Favors become that? I don't know. But i would think, worse case scenario, he is your replacement for Sammy. And i do think that it is easier to find a 2 guard with a pure stroke at 15 in the draft than it is a big with major upside. So what do you do? I think you take Favors to balance things out. You've got Jrue and Iggy that are going to handle the ball and you try and develop Favors to compete with the other dominant bigs in the league. We basically have no bigs. Speights cannot be counted on, Brand is what he is and Sammy will always be a frustrating player on a bad team. Plug the 5 spot for the next 10 years and move on to the next area of need. Could you move Thad for Brandon rush? Something like that? Could Jodie Meeks play spot minutes at the 2 and stretch the floor. I mean look at the guys they surround Stoudemire and Howard with? Barnes/dudley/etc. Favors would replace Sammy's athleticism on the back line and free us up for a expiring dump of Sam before the deadline.

Maybe i am just talking myself into this, but going big has its merits.

Yeah, I'm still in the Favors camp, for a lot of these reasons. Think it's very unlikely (even more unlikely if Ford is reporting it), but it's the pick I'd make.

bill reply to CSTH on May 29 at 10:23

I agree. Finding an "adequate #2 is much easier than a dominant 4 or 5. Would you start a baseball team with a DH. No you get a shortstop, center fielder and a catcher with some pitching. We have Meeks, Williams and Green (still? thank you Billy King!) who can fill in at the 2. Plus Brand can tutor Favors for a year and then we only have Brand, Favors and Speights to rotate the 4/5. The problem with Brand is that he's overpaid, not that he can't play 25 minutes a night. Ed screwed up so why dump him now when his trade value is at a low point. Next year can just be about maturity for Jrue and Favors, figuring out if Meeks or Williams can play the 2, figuring out what to do with Thad (I'd trade him and keep Iggy), elevating Brand so that we can trade him and waiting for 2011-2012 when we have some salary room. Thereafter we can take shots at some 2 and 5 in the draft from the 15-20 position and maybe get lucky. You'll never get lucky from the 15-20 position with a player like Favors for he'll be gone by 10.

Ummm yea I agree with what brian said. Keep iggy. His contract will expire when jrue is about at his prime. So keep him and draft turner. I haven't gave up on speights or thad at the 4. I don't think turner and iggy are that much alike so they could co-exist. The backcourt of turner and holiday will make iggy and the frontcourt players better.

Or what about Thad for Rudy Fernandez? Something like that to fill that 2 guard/shooter hole?

iggy/kapono (good thing iggy leads the world in minutes)

Good times!

is Thad for Rudy possible? Would Portland do that? why wasn't he playing there? After the gold medal game i know he can play. He scared the shit out of us.

That's definitely a possibility. Rudy's kind of been begging out of POR. He ran into a ton of problems when they plugged him in to replace Roy, when he doesn't have the skills to play that kind of role. If you put him on the Sixers and have Jrue, AI9 and maybe Turner making the plays, he can just be a finisher & shooter, which is pretty much as much offensive responsibility as he can handle. My main problem w/ Rudy is his frailty.

All of the measurements are on insider. Here is a link to a copy…


Player – No step vert – Max vert – Bench press (185 lbs) – Lane agility – 3/4 court sprint
Solomon Alabi 22.5 26.0 10 13.2 3.68
Cole Aldrich 23.0 28.0 10 11.48 3.35
Aminu, Al-Farouq 27.0 33.5 13 11.29 3.3
James Anderson 30.0 35.5 14 11.86 3.19
Luke Babbitt 29.5 37.5 15 10.98 3.4
Eric Bledsoe -N-a -N-a 9 -N-a -N-a
Trevor Booker 31.0 36.0 22 11.15 3.1
Craig Brackins 26.0 35.0 6 11.65 3.39
Avery Bradley 31.5 37.5 2 11.47 3.14
Derrick Caracter 25.0 30.5 22 12.78 3.61
Sherron Collins 27.5 33.0 -N-a 12.31 3.24
DeMarcus Cousins 23.5 27.5 -N-a 11.4 3.55
Jordan Crawford 31.5 34.5 7 11.03 3.37
Ed Davis 31.0 36.0 -N-a 11.7 3.21
Devin Ebanks 23.5 32.0 6 11.69 3.44
Derrick Favors 31.5 35.5 14 11.74 3.25
Keith Gallon 23.5 28.5 14 13.44 3.7
Charles Garcia 24.5 30.5 2 11.65 3.23
Paul George -N-a -N-a 4 -N-a -N-a
Luke Harangody 24.0 28.5 23 11.83 3.41
Manny Harris -N-a -N-a 11 -N-a -N-a
Lazar Hayward 31.0 36.0 15 10.87 3.31
Gordon Hayward 30.5 34.5 10 11.73 3.22
Xavier Henry 28.5 36.5 8 11.1 3.18
Darington Hobson 29.0 34.0 -N-a 11.68 3.25
James, Damion 29.0 33.0 13 10.89 3.2
Armon Johnson 31.5 38.5 18 11.25 3.19
Wesley Johnson 32.0 37.0 16 11.43 3.14
Dominique Jones 26.0 32.5 19 10.88 3.31
Jerome Jordan -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a
Sylven Landesberg 28.0 32.0 8 11.59 3.36
Gani Lawal 27.0 31.5 20 11.61 3.24
Greg Monroe 25.0 29.0 15 12.1 3.35
Daniel Orton 24.0 30.5 13 12.32 3.39
Artsiom Parakhouski 25.5 26.5 16 12.07 3.33
Patrick Patterson 28.5 33.5 17 11.14 3.25
Dexter Pittman -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a
Andy Rautins 23.5 30.5 8 11.27 3.49
Ryan Richards 25.0 28.5 4 11.33 3.37
Stanley Robinson -N-a 37.5 6 11.65 3.23
Larry Sanders 25.5 28.0 7 12.49 3.27
Jon Scheyer -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a
Lance Stephenson 27.0 33.0 10 11.39 3.38
Mikhail Torrance 23.0 32.0 8 11.43 3.17
Evan Turner 27.5 34.5 9 11.06 3.27
Ekpe Udoh 31.0 33.5 10 11.15 3.29
Jarvis Varnado 29.5 32.5 3 11.61 3.37
Greivis Vasquez -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a
John Wall 30.0 39.0 -N-a 10.84 3.14
Willie Warren 23.0 31.5 10 11.21 3.5
Terrico White 31.0 40.0 10 11.38 3.15
Hassan Whiteside 27.0 31.5 12 11.83 3.54

I have a better vert than Cousins.

Jeff reply to Brian on May 27 at 21:16

and Cousins has a better vertical than Cole Aldrich (shocker).

So is Babbitt the Joe Alexander of this draft?


Avery Bradley 31.5 37.5 2 11.47 3.14
DeMarcus Cousins 23.5 27.5 -N-a 11.4 3.55
Ed Davis 31.0 36.0 -N-a 11.7 3.21
Derrick Favors 31.5 35.5 14 11.74 3.25
Xavier Henry 28.5 36.5 8 11.1 3.18
Wesley Johnson 32.0 37.0 16 11.43 3.14
Gani Lawal 27.0 31.5 20 11.61 3.24
Greg Monroe 25.0 29.0 15 12.1 3.35
Daniel Orton 24.0 30.5 13 12.32 3.39
Patrick Patterson 28.5 33.5 17 11.14 3.25
Dexter Pittman -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a -N-a
Larry Sanders 25.5 28.0 7 12.49 3.27
Evan Turner 27.5 34.5 9 11.06 3.27
Ekpe Udoh 31.0 33.5 10 11.15 3.29
John Wall 30.0 39.0 -N-a 10.84 3.14
Hassan Whiteside 27.0 31.5 12 11.83 3.54

It's funny, I watched Wall do the agility test and he really didn't look that fast. He was kind of herky-jerky on the side-to-side portion, clearly very quick on the forward and back, though.

In terms of measurables, what do you see as the most and least important?

IMO, important:

Wingspan, reach, max vert, agility. The last two as a proxy for athleticism.

Standing Reach, no step vert reach, agility

I think for a big who you project to be a shot blocker, both jump numbers matter, as does max vert reach. Agility is important for everyone. The sprint is probably the least meaningful to me. I'd like to the time on a full-court sprint with the ball, that would be more meaningful for guards IMO.

I believe Whiteides numbers were in flip flps. Is that correct :)


Whiteside had the best standing reach in the draft, right? He's probably only an inch or two behind Favors in max vert reach.

Yeah. 1st pick for the Pro Beach Volleyball tour.

Wow. Jrue's agility time last year was 10.64.

One of the better all time.

But I'm not sure these numbers are perfectly comparable year to year. For example agility may depend on floor conditions.

Also, I saw this:

Luke Harongody:

2009: 27" no step, 31" max
2010: 24" no step, 28.5" max

Damion James:

2009: 30" no step, 37" max
2010: 29" no step, 33" max

Gani Lawal:

2009: 30" no step, 34.5" max
2010: 27" no step, 31.5" max

Jason reply to tk76 on May 27 at 16:37

Patrick Patterson 28.5 33.5 17 11.14 3.25
Evan Turner 27.5 34.5 9 11.06 3.27
Ekpe Udoh 31.0 33.5 10 11.15 3.29

Udoh and Patterson had nice combine imo. What is the standard for a guard in lane agility and the dash?

Not sure there's really a standard. I like to look at how they compare to guys from the past couple years. DraftExpress has a database, but they don't have all of this year's info in there yet.

teddygreen on May 27 at 16:30

a little 2 minute podcast rant on why a pistons and sixers trade isn't very likely...

teddygreen on May 27 at 16:31


Luke Harangody 24.0 28.5 23 11.83 3.41
Gordon Hayward 30.5 34.5 10 11.73 3.22

look at how close their lane agility and the dash is.

deepsixersuede on May 27 at 17:52

Aldrich was as good almost as A.Bradley in lane agility.

That's even more impressive than you think. He did it with 2" lifts in his shoes.

The more I think about this draft, the more I think this could be '03 all over again (sans LeBron). Not saying these guys will necessarily play like those guys, but could Wall have the same impact as Wade, Turner = Melo, Favors = Bosh? I'm really having a tough time deciding who I'd prefer between Turner and Favors. Wish there was a way we could get both.

Jason Mess on May 27 at 21:00

I will be happy with either Favors or Turner, would be confused if we picked Johnson or Cousins. But I am starting to want Favors a little bit more. The one thing I was wondering do ya'll think he can play both the 4 and 5 spots during the course of the year or do you think that would hurt his development?

I think he can, and will, play either position. Ultimately, I think if the Sixers take him, he's the five of the future.

Collins just said he spoke with Dre today for 2 hours about the direction of the team. That's really good to hear. I just really like Doug Collins Tactics. He probably bought the ticket for iggy to sit at the LA/Phoenix game too. Wouldn't surprise me.

Very good to hear.

just found an elton brand mix

Thanks, that was actually pretty cool.

You know, from watching that video, it looks to me like Brand gained some weight as the season went on too. Maybe he was hanging out w/ Speights.

Charlie reply to Brian on May 28 at 0:22

yea, hopefully Queen Latifah can help him with his rehab

For the record, if Iguodala took the shot Kobe just took, you guys would've crucified him and called him selfish.

Stan reply to Brian on May 28 at 0:13

When Iguodala scores 81 pts in a game, we won't crucify him . Anyway this really blows. I really wanted to see a Pheonix-Orlando series. Isn't it funny that Iverson has gotten further in the playoffs than Nash?

OK, so a bad shot isn't a bad shot if Kobe takes it. Got it.

Stan reply to Brian on May 28 at 0:18

I'm joking, relax. It was a bad shot, but you must admit a part of you thought that it was going in because it shot by Kobe.

Jeff reply to Stan on May 28 at 3:20


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