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Showdown With OKC

He'a also at least a year older than Jrue Holiday as well?

Jrue - 6/12/90
Turner - 10/27/88

I'm going to wait til the actual season starts to make an opinion one way or another on Turner. A poor performance in these games isn't going to make me push the panic button on Turner.

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Myleskong on Jul 7 at 15:03
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These concerns are very premature. He's playing a totally different role than in college. It's going to be a little learning curve for learning how to play off the ball. I see him doing a lot of work to get open but a reluctance to shot when he catches the ball.

12 pts, 4 asts and 100% FT are nice consistent stats right now. Have you noticed what Favors did yesterday? NJ should be concerned.

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Jason reply to Myleskong on Jul 7 at 15:08
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Did Turner air ball that 3? I have both semi final game and this up so could be wrong.

Favors is 18 and raw. Everyone knew that about him. Turner is older and experienced. He should be better than just about everyone on the floor in these games, imo.

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johnrosz on Jul 7 at 15:08
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Turner just air balled a 3. His shot looks so flat to me

lol @ the foul by Jrue, jumped on Maynor's back. Also I am pretty sure that the Announcers think Maynor>>>> Jrue.

is it Steve Smith?

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 15:13
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yeah steve smith and rick kamla

Kamla's a big Willie Green fan.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 15:18
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Kamla talked about Nocioni's toughness for a few minutes during yesterdays game.Also talked about how deep our bench is, made it sound like the Sixers are a title contender.

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Louis X on Jul 7 at 15:13
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Too bad Ibaka is still hurt

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johnrosz on Jul 7 at 15:21
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Can you imagine if OKC had taken Steph Curry or Tyreke Evans over Harden? Whoops...

Aren't they both rather ball dominant players?

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johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Jul 7 at 15:27
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Well Curry would be a better fit because of the shot. But I think if they could go back they'd take the superior talent of either of those players over Harden. Westbrook/Curry/Durant/Green/Ibaka would be something to see

The difference is that I don't believe Curry needs to be ball dominant. Not when you can shoot like that.

It's official: Lebron James is signing with the Knicks. Fuck

WHere did you see that?

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johnrosz reply to Mr.E on Jul 7 at 15:31
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I think he's going to announce his retirement from basketball to go to training camp with the Cleveland Browns

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johnrosz on Jul 7 at 15:34
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Brian is very right about this. Turner should be dominating. He looks slow, he looks like he can't get to the rim. His jumper looks flat. My mild concern is growing ever so slightly as the days go on...

They're interviewing Collins, Steve Smith is asking him a question. some OKC clown throws down a nice dunk, and of course Kamla creams his pants and cuts off the professionals trying to do their jobs. "OHHHHH. HO HO HO OHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! ONE OF THE BEST DUNKS IVE SEEN HO HO!!!!!!!"

lol @ them saying that Jrue's 3 shot isn't that good.

Smith"If he keeps putting in those repetitions it will come"

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johnrosz on Jul 7 at 15:48
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Turner has been awful

I wonder if Turner might just be out of shape. His last game of competitive basketball was sometime in early March. He wasn't exactly working hard in his workouts (if he had that many) before the draft because he was the consensus #2 pick really.

It's been close to 4 months since he's played competitive basketball, maybe he's out of shape (based on what people are saying that's my hope - that he'll be in better basketball shape come training camp)

I only watched part of the Monday game, and Turner looked out of shape to me. Heavy-legged.

One thing I liked about Turner was how he had some swagger...some competitive spirit. Probably just still hesitant in the bigger pond of talent, but I want to see that competitive spirit where he gets fired up rather than the "fart face" as Brian calls it.

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johnrosz on Jul 7 at 16:03
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I'm very worried that the great ball handling skills of ET are going to be nullified because of how slow he is. He can dribble the ball all day but he's just going to be going in circles if he can't get by his defender.

Who's guarding him?

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 16:11
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He's been matched up with Harden. Didn't Harden used to be kinda chubby? He looks like he could snap Turner in half right now, great shape. I think Turner is gonna have to hit the gym hard, looks like he gets pushed around a bit out there

Yeah, I thought Harden was a bit chubby last year.

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Jason reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 16:11
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Not entirely sure, Turner hasn't really gotten the ball much on offense, He tends to stand in the corner and not move. Have seen Harden defend him though.

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mbtoole on Jul 7 at 16:06
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Regular reader; infrequent poster checking in here.

I don't really have any skin in the game, I didn't prefer Turner over Favors or vice versa, but I have to say....your bias against Turner is really starting to show through more and more each day. You almost seem to be rooting against Turner's success b/c you wanted Favors with the 2 pick.

Not trying to be a hater or troll, just trying to provide some constructive criticism.

Michael

Turner seems to be getting a lot of criticism from a variety of folk who read and post here, I don't think any of it has been out of bounds, based on various reports, Turner has looked very bad so far in summer league.

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scott reply to GoSixers on Jul 7 at 16:12
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I dont think you can really say he's been "bad."

I think it's more fair to say he's been pedestrian.

It's only summer league and there are a bunch of reasons he might not really be ready to go just yet.

So he hasn't looked bad, he's just looked ok. And I understand with the high hopes that come along with being the number 2 pick, a pedestrian perfermance is somewhat of a let down.

Luckily, one of Turner's good qualities is that he won't be satisfied with being ok. He will work to be better than that.

I haven't seen the game, can only go on the commentary I read and it seems he's being outplayed by Jodie Meeks based on the fan commentary, and if that's true, I qualify that as bad, because Meeks isn't good, he's just playing sub par talent.

I'll go into more depth after a few more games, but my point isn't that I think he's going to be a bad player, and I certainly don't want him to fail in any way, shape or form. I said I wanted Favors, but I also said I wouldn't be upset if Turner was the pick because I believe Turner will be a very good pro. If Turner fails, I was still wrong. This isn't an ego thing for me, I'd much rather be wrong and have the team get better than be right about what I see as a questionable decision (which this draft pick was not).

These are just my observations so far, and they're leading to a bigger point, if you can wait for it.

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mbtoole on Jul 7 at 16:12
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He's played exactly 2 summer league games and already people "expected more" or are disappointed. He hadn't played a competitive game since March and is learning a completely new system. What exactly is it that people expected?

I don't know what was expected, but I said the exact same thing earlier up.

He was the #2 pick in the draft, and he was a junior, people expected more obviously. It seems he's being outplayed by guys who will be lucky to be on the NBDL roster this year. He's being out played by Jodie Meeks who isn't that good but is playing sub par talent.

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Jason reply to mbtoole on Jul 7 at 16:13
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After this first half I think it's time to expect more from him, he has 0 pts and 1 assist after first half.

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Myleskong reply to Jason on Jul 7 at 16:22
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Probably still end up with 12 and 4. I don't think its a need to run around frantically like a lot of the comp. His job is guaranteed. No need to get injure in SL trying to do too much.

Not worried one bit.

That doesn't sound very tough or warriorish to me.

Yeah, I was bothered by that excuse for Turners play as well.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Jason on Jul 7 at 16:35
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I think I'll wait until we're about 20 games into the regular season before I start freaking out about Turner.

He's playing SF in a glorified rec-league tournament, having not played in a meaningful game in 4 months (after spending the season playing PG), and we come to a determination after 2 1/2 games that the guy's a stiff?

Ummmm....OK.

No one has said he's a stiff.

People have said he's played poorly in the summer league games, and he has. Quite poorly.

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bebopdeluxe reply to GoSixers on Jul 7 at 16:49
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He hasn't played a competative game in 4 months...and when he did, he played PG and had the ball in his hands ALL THE TIME. He's playing with three guys with NBA EXPERIENCE playing THEIR NATURAL POSITIONS.

I think people need to chill out...have a creme soda...

I think people need to acknowledge that he's playing sub par NBA talent and he's playing badly. Those are facts. Anyone thinking he's a bust so far is over reacting as much as those people who think he should endure no criticism for his bad play.

He's playing badly, for whatever reason, he's playing badly, in his chosen profession, in his coming out type appearance, he's playing badly

Announcers enjoying Jrue's game now.

Sixers up 1

Gotta give him time. New system. New teammates. Athletic opposition. Read a previous entry that stated he deferred to elder teamates his freshman year at Ohio st. Probably a lot going through his head. His lack of selfishness probably negatively affecting him in this summer league. It's Holiday's summer league team. Not Turner's.

That doesn't explain the horrible shooting when he does shoot does it?

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sfw reply to GoSixers on Jul 7 at 16:47
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He hasn't played competitively in months. Has to feel pressure to show he was worth the 2nd pick. Criticism is coming too fast. He does a lot of good things on the court. Not going to overanalyze his game until he get's into the real league. His rep is that he is a hard worker. I'm sure he'll improve whatever facet of his game needs improving.

Yes, I mentioned the four months thing, but the point is, this is sub par talent and it's the first chance anyone gets to see him play what would remotely be considered an NBA game. First impressions aren't good.

There's a difference between saying he's playing poorly (which he is) in the summer league and saying he's a big bust. I think people are freaking out over any criticism towards him when it's deserved. He's playing terribly. He might be playing worse than Jrue did in last years summer league

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sfw reply to GoSixers on Jul 7 at 16:52
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I've watched parts of the first 2 games. I agree with a prior post. He's been playing mediocre. Not Horrible.

I'm just going to tell myself Turner looks great even if he's not because I can't handle him being a bust.

I don't think he's going to be a bust..well, at least not to me.

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Marty reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 16:53
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I don't really think he'll be a bust. Truthfully, from the 2 1/2 games I've seen it seems to me that he's just out of shape. Lots of reaching (note the fouls), not getting up and down the floor real great, looking gassed a bit, poor body language. From a skill standpoint, his dribble is fantastic and shot looks fine (maybe more lift needed, but again, out of shape). He's been getting out hustled on the boards today too. Three games in three days looking like it's taking a toll a bit. I think we'll see a much more prepared player come October.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Marty on Jul 7 at 16:58
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Post of the day.

This won't be the first time that a guy came into the L thinking that he has been working hard and is ready to take the next step...only to run face-first into a brick wall. Things have come so naturally to him, but the combination of playing out of position and not REALLY being ready for prime-time are a VERY rude awakening for Turner. Fortunately, the start of the regular season is almost four months away...

Anybody question Turner's ability to work his ass off to show everybody the "true" Villain?

Yeah, Damion James and Tony Gaffney are such a brick wall.

yo...is the Mustafa Shakur on OKC? man i used to see him play at FCS like 6 or 7 yrs ago.

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speekeasy reply to joeykey on Jul 8 at 21:52
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d-league right now. i saw him and dj white play at Slam Dunk at the Beach. they both played pretty well today

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izimbra on Jul 7 at 16:55
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I'm concerned about whoever it was in the FO that classified Plaisted as a warm body worth an invite. That dude needs a new thermometer.

Boozer to the Bulls, 5 years/$80M.

Rose, ?, LeBron, Boozer, Noah.

That's infinitely better than Chalmers, Wade, ?, Bosh, ?. IMO.

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Mustafa reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 17:45
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Yea, but if you take Lebron out of the equation would you still say that Boozer, Rose, and Noah are better than Bosh and Wade?

Hmmn. I think the more important question is if you're LeBron, would you rather play with Wade and Bosh or Rose, Boozer and Noah. I think I'd go with the Bulls right now. They still have Deng as well, who I'm sure they'd like to move. Could you start LBJ at the two in Chicago, go super, super big?

Rose, LBJ, Deng, Boozer, Noah?

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 17:58
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I hate Boozer. He has fake toughness like Nocioni. He's come up small time and time again in playoff series and big spots in important games. His success has so much to do with the remarkable ability of Deron Williams if you ask me. Not that Rose isn't a fantastic PG, just don't see him spoon feeding Boozer the way that Williams did. Also feel that the Utah bread and butter (pick and roll) had a ton to do with his success, more of a system player to me. The Bulls are in for a rude awakening.

Agree that Rose/Deng/Boozer/Noah isn't a contender, but if you add LBJ, who is a better passer than D. Williams imo, Boozer is going to put up big numbers and that contract will probably be fine (assuming he stays healthy, which isn't really a safe assumption).

Boozer w/out LBJ makes them better, but not significantly so I don't think.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Jul 7 at 18:12
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That's going to be an interesting situation if LBJ goes to Chicago. Rose has to have the ball in his hands. We already know LBJ needs the ball in his hands (as well he should) Rose can't shoot a lick though, so much of his game is utilizing his quickness in iso situations.

Maybe you're right, Boozer will benefit. Cleveland ran some pretty successful screen and rolls with Varejao and Hickson, I'd imagine Boozer will only be more effective, he has some pick and pop game as well. I just don't know if he's worth that kind of contract. I really can't believe the way GMs are still throwing money around, like they haven't learned a damn thing over the last decade about the cap implications of such deals...

They're all banking on being bailed out by the new CBA.

They're saying 5 years/$75M now.

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Jason Mess on Jul 7 at 17:11
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It is summer league, you can not put to much into it. When he makes a bad play call him out on it (I am sure his teammates and coaches will). Thats fine. I had not read one post that said we should have taken Favors. So lets move on. Turner has had some real nice plays and some real bad ones. I do think this is where his average athleticism hurts him a little. It just means he has to work a little harder and do some thing a little different. I still think by his second year he will be our second leading scorer, and one of two guys who will be making big shots for the team.

Summer league play doesn't matter at all.

I'll wait till the preseason ends to start worrying about him in the least.

Boozer's deal isn't that bad and is similar to Elton's.

Pretty interesting comp, Boozer and Brand's careers through the point where they signed an $80M/5yr contract. The major difference is that Boozer was hurt the year before his contract year, and put a full season in prior to free agency, whereas Brand's injury basically cost him his walk year on the floor.

Boozer holds an edge in scoring efficiency and defensive rebounding. Brand blocked a ton more shots, didn't turn the ball over as much and I think he was really a better overall defender.

It's a shame Cleveland couldn't keep Boozer

Sixers reportedly talking to Anthony Tolliver and Acie Law

Link?

I guess if they're only looking at a minimum guy, may as well go for a first-round bust or a journeyman. Neither of these guys really helps and both would probably be a one-year stop gap.

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Tom Moore on Jul 7 at 18:12
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Had a conference call with Stefanski from Orlando today. I asked him about how well Holiday is playing so far.

"He is night and day from last year’s summer league to now. I don’t know if I could say he’s the talk of the summer league, but people are raving about him. He’s played well. He used to have trouble getting the rim, but now he’s taking the ball wherever he wants to. He’s a totally different player (from a year ago)."

Holiday is averaging team-highs in scoring (19.3 points) and assists (6.5) in the Sixers’ three games, including a game-high 25 points in Wednesday’s 89-80 loss to the Thunder.

Did he comment on how Turner is playing?

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Tom Moore reply to GoSixers on Jul 7 at 18:35
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Yes, said Turner is frustrated and not in game shape. Also said he's having trouble with the pace of the game and the way the officials call it, similar to Holiday a year ago at this time.

I don't mind the pace and officials, that's natural - I mind that he's out of shape.

This may be too much parsing, but when he says out of shape does he mean he's not in game shape or does he mean he got fat on the draft/award circuit and needs to lose the weight?

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Tom Moore reply to GoSixers on Jul 7 at 18:48
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Think he was referring to Turner not playing 5-on-5 for fear of getting hurt prior to the draft.

Conference call with Turner tomorrow.

To me that sounds more like a game shape issue. I can live with that.

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Jason Mess on Jul 7 at 18:26
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Not putting to much into the summer league but more into what he did last year and some of what we saw in the summer league. Do you think Jrue could be a Steve Nash type as far as on the nights you need him to he just takes over a game. If not this or next year at all ?

It's possible. He definitely did it at time last season.

Turner just needs to hit the gym, that's all.

Jrue and Iggy will get him right physically.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Mike P on Jul 7 at 19:54
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Sho'nuff.

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Tom Moore on Jul 7 at 19:42
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NBA sent an email: 2010-11 cap is set at $58.044 million, with the luxury tax of $70.307 million.

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Old School Sixer Fan reply to Tom Moore on Jul 7 at 20:16
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How does that compare to 09-10?

2009-10 cap was $57.7 million.

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Jason reply to Tom Moore on Jul 7 at 20:18
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Isn't luxury tax higher than expected?

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Tom Moore reply to Jason on Jul 7 at 20:41
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Yes. Was expected to be about $68.5 million.

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Tom Moore on Jul 7 at 21:10
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Assuming Sixers give Turner the 20 percent above the $3.835 million slotted for the No. 2 pick, they'll be at $68 million with 13 guys. That'd leave them $2.3 million below the $70.3 mill tax. Say they sign somebody for the minimum, that'd give another $1.3 mill or so in case they have injuries and need to use 15th spot during season.

Turner struggled again today and it was apparent he was not able to make his moves that he usually makes. This is a little strange because he should be the guy who is comfortable and making plays. He's not doing that. He had a couple of nice passes, but I want to see a confident, aggressive scorer. Haven't seen that yet.

I actually wasn't thrilled with Jrue today. His defense against Maynor was lackadaisical in the 1st Half. He still was the best player on the floor even though he didn't take care of the ball, which is amazing because there were some solid NBA players on the floor. Two things on Jrue- 1. Why is he hesitating shooting the three ball? We all know he can stroke the hell out of the ball. 2. What's up with the free throws?

Speights was better today, but I'm still not even close to satisfied with his defense. I guess that's just who he is. Good high energy performance and he still looks a little bit hurt.

I also liked Jodie's performance. If he can play like this for 10 minutes a game next year, I'll take that. He knows his role and gives effort defensively.

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Tom Moore on Jul 7 at 21:31
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I asked about Jason Smith today and Stefanski said doctors told him to take a break from basketball until August. Smith played limited minutes last year after missing the entire 2008-09 season with a torn ACL.

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eddies' heady's on Jul 7 at 22:28
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I never commented on Turner being the draft pick before the draft because I was full of skepticism. I think the last time I voiced opinions about him was in a passionate debate with Derek around the first of the year when I mentioned that Turner reminded me of an Iguodala clone (but not in the literal) and his propensity for a high amount of turnovers and ball dominant game.

While I'm still not in the pass judgment camp as of yet (any player on any level needs more than a week and a half of practice and gametime to get their legs under them and become acclimated to live action), his game on the college level never seemed to impress me. The Big Ten brand is always so grimy and grind it out type style and I've never felt the competition in that league is on par with the Big 12 or especially the ACC. Succeeding in that grinding style against what I consider mostly mediocre competition doesn't necessarily equal a grand accomplishment, or even moreso, translation of game to the next level.

I must repeat that I'm not basing this opinion or passing judgment on just these past three games. It's just that I don't see a guy accustomed to handling the ball the majority of the time without above par athleticism being a successful 2 guard running off pindowns and curls for catch and shoot looks (which is how i guess we are going to try and use him, b/c with Jrue's deft dribble and nimble probing of the defense he has to control the ball the majority, right? not to mention Dala's playmaking ability).

So without the quickness to blow by, or the athleticism to elevate and shoot over, or him not being known as a knock-down long range shooter, how do we excel with this guy manning the 2 position for us and being relied upon as one of your primary point producers?

We already have two creators to a degree, not much of a low post presence, and not really any pure shooters so how does this kid eventually succeed within the team concepts and provide what we have been sorely lacking from that position, or give us what we need from that position in order to be an efficient and flowing offense?

It's still way early for sure, but this is why, as I teetered on that fence pre-draft, I felt Wesley Johnson fits the mold of a better 2 guard on this level. Tom Moore replied to a comment of mine about Wesley on draft day that he didn't think the Sixers would pick him because he wasn't as good of a ball handler. But what does that ball handling offer if you can't create separation to get your shot off? As someone mentioned on here today, you're just going to dribble around in circles.

Still looking forward to analyzing his game and hope for some type of progress around the 20 game or so mark of the regular season. I just wanted so bad for this pick to turn into a game changer somewhere down the line and not just another complementary player. The jury is definitely still out...

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johnrosz reply to eddies' heady's on Jul 7 at 23:09
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The lack of any kind of explosiveness off the dribble is definitely what's most alarming to me. Let's just hope he's out of shape

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Jason Mess reply to johnrosz on Jul 8 at 0:41
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I think your right about the big ten. Sometimes players that do well there have a lot of trouble translating there game to the NBA. Some end up doing it, it just takes them longer than we would like. The other thing is Turner is not a sportscenter star. He is not going to blow anyone away with his athleticism. If he is going to be a really good player think it will be a couple of years until he figures it out. I think we get spoiled some times with some players dominating right off the bat and we want that from Turner. He might still do it but I am not counting him out. Just not looking for it right away. Jrue on the other hand I think might just make a huge jump this year.

Wes Johnson is definitely not a SG. He just lacks the handle or quickness. He is a great athlete and has great size at SF. So drafting Johnson would have meant keeping Iguodala at SG ()which I would be fine with, but many think is playing "out of position."

As for Turner, I'm very disappointed by his poor showing. Not sure if it has any relevance in terms of his NBA future... but I certainly expected him to be dominant this Summer League. IMO the nearly 22 year old consensus NCAA POY should be tearing up this level on competition. He was a very good player off the ball as a sophomore- and should not look frustrated, confused and at times lost out there. he is not some raw 19 year old kid with "potential" like Jrue last year.

All very fair points. I thought I saw defensive strides today as he was very active in the passing lanes. He rebounds the ball very well too. I don't know about the Big Ten comparison, I think it's a tougher brand of ball then most, and the defense is usually pretty good. It's something worth monitoring though.

The lack of blow-by ability is troubling, and I am disappointed as well. Here's the thing I was thinking though: The guy people said he was like is BRANDON ROY. Brandon Roy is not really a driver by any means. He's a guy that shoots the ball well from mid-range in isolation situations. Roy also shoots threes well enough to keep the defenses honest. He never strikes me as a guy who relentlessly attacks the basket though.

So we either can come to one of two conclusions. Either he's not really a good comparison for Roy as he's more of a driver, or he's not really willing to shoot those shots that Roy takes (stepbacks, fadeaways, open threes). He was more willing to take open threes today. I'm not saying it's the second one, but he's rimmed out on a couple of really tough moves that he makes look easy. If he isn't willing to take those shots (or he won't create them), Roy is not a good comp.

It is very troubling though.

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Jason Mess reply to Rich on Jul 8 at 0:46
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I don't think we should compare him to Roy. I also do not think his play is troubling. It has been bad at times but I only think it would be troubling if he came out and was not able to do anything at all his first three games.

The Big 10 is better than the ACC. The ACC has 2 or 3 good teams every year and the rest are awful. The Big 10 usually has 7 or 8 teams that are pretty good, just not as good as the ACC's best team, and it's a tougher conference with better post play. It seems to me that because the ACC gets 5 or 6 freshman drafted in the first round every year that it's a better conference.

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eddies' heady's reply to charlie ace on Jul 8 at 10:16
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Merely a matter of opinion here, but for arguments sake check the history of the ACC/Big Ten Challenge.

And if the rest of those ACC teams are awful then why does the ACC consistently place the most teams in the NCAA tournament every year?

It is certainly debateable but the Big Ten from top to bottom can't sniff the ACC and it hasn't for a long time.

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speekeasy reply to eddies' heady's on Jul 8 at 22:07
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i agree with you about the ACC being better than the Big 10 but teams play out of conference and Turner played damn well in the tourney.

As for the Roy comparisons I think that Turners actually more of Roy/Tyreke Evans hybrid. Tyreke isnt a great athlete but he's a big guard thats good in transition and can finish at the rim. Evans probably has a quicker first step but he isn't (in my opinion) as good of a shooter or as good of a passer as Turner (we'll see about rebounding and defense). Unfortunately both of these comparisons are guys that need the ball in their hands (and dribbling) to be successful. Turner probably will as well and one thing i see when he plays is that he's timid right now and doesnt bring the ball up the court off a rebound or when he gets the ball on the perimeter in the half court. Right now i just want to see him be more assertive


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