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A Trade That Makes Sense

Court_visioN on Jul 19 at 2:16

hmm. if this offer was proposed in real life which side do you think would demand more in the deal?

My guess is Stefanski would offer to throw in a couple future picks, just because it looks a little too even on paper.

I don't like it. And i have no idea how this makes us better on the court. It would only be a money saving move, without saving that much money...

Lou is a better player than Sessions. And Sessions is not a good defender despite those stats from two years ago... He may be better than Lou but not enough to offset, Lou's better offense.

I'm all for trading Lou, but we have to get something that truly makes sense for the team...

An actual backup PG, not a make-believe backup PG like Lou, who can run the offense, score a little bit and defend (he's much better than Lou) is something that helps this team more than Lou gunning off the bench. We've got Thad and Speights for that.

I would do it in a heartbeat because Lou's stats don't really tell his worth as a player. He doesn't really make anyone else better and is maybe the worst defender in the league. He plays hard and is a good team guy, so I can't fault him there.

I actually think Lou has more value than Sessions and Minny would do it (Khannnn!). I don't think Ed would though.

Ed definitely wouldn't do it. He doesn't make productive trades.

I believe someone from our organization mentioned Collins wanting Turner to play backup p.g. along with s.g. over the summer.

I never thought of Sessions as more than average defensively, which puts him way above Lou but his outside shot makes Lou look like Redick. I want either a lockdown defender or a lightsout shooter if a backup pure p.g. is acquired and during summer league it looked like Meeks was bringing the ball up a lot, maybe they feel he can be Willielight at the p.g..

Don't see lou getting time with Minny's starting point. Both are too small. So, I wouldn't see this happening. Lou must play with a big point. This way he can play some 1 & 2. From the sixers perspective, I would make the trade.

So, how was Inception?

Enjoyable. Wasn't great, but worth seeing.

Sessions is most likely on the move to Cleveland (and before was rumored to Charlotte). Minnesota signed Ridnour so they are essentially giving Sessions away. Don't think they have any interest in Lou considering their roster makeup now.

MylesKong on Jul 19 at 9:59

Maybe I would do it if we got Koufos in return too. Just to take a shot at a big body with little risk.

Honestly, I think Sessions must have fleas. I mean the Bucks let him walk for nothing, no? The Wolves want to trade him after just 1 year into his deal. And both squads seem to prefer Ridnour over him.

Another reason I don't want him is fit. He just doesn't really fit the back up point fit. He'll be a back up but he will play with starters. I don't see how Andre Miller-lite could coexist with Iggy or Turner, if he can't knockdown a shot. Atleast with Lou, he is a natural 2 that I imagine will compliment Turner, Jrue or Iggy, or any combination of 2 of them very well.

If this was Sixers pre-Jrue then I'd be all over it. I just don't see him being able to come in the game and change the pace, or provide anything off the bench that's worth the move.

I WOULD trade Lou for Delonte though. Now, that's an upgrade defensively.

The Bucks were cheap, the Timberwolves are just plain idiots. Sessions is the worst kind of PG you could have in the triangle, Ridnour (if he shoots jumpers like he did last season) is a really good fit.

Sessions isn't a perfect fit, but he's a much better fit than Lou as far as I'm concerned. He's cheaper and he doesn't add any years onto our payroll.

MylesKong reply to Brian on Jul 19 at 10:41

It's just fishy to me.
If they're idiots, get Brewer and Sessions for Green.

Lol at "and" Brewer. Although it is Kahn. Corey actually came alive last season.

Great idea, Brian (if the Timberwolves would go along with it). Session's departure appears to be coming but I wonder (as another poster has mentioned) if they already have another deal for him in mind. Whether one agrees with their decisions or not, the new Timberwolves front office appears at least to be fairly activist.

I'm more hesitant than you to fix the boundaries of Thad and Hawes' potentials because they are both very young men who I think might be at least three or four years away from their topsides (if they both had their best years this year, I wouldn't automatically attribute that to the contract year). Lou may not be much older than them but I have more significant doubts that he will ever develop into the type of point or combo guard that will fit well into a system of team play; but, with a double figure average over the last three years, some respectable numbers in other areas, and a reasonably affordable contract, he should still be worth something in a trade.

Great idea, Brian. Question, do you see anyone on Minny's roster that would help us w/ a center along w/ Sessions? Would love to throw in Willie (an expiring) for a big guy along w/ Sessions. Sometimes deals make too much sense.

Mike P reply to DeanH on Jul 19 at 12:16

They have like 13 centers. Just pick one.

Maybe we could get that Russian guy for Thad along with Lou for Sessions.

It will be an insult to the fan base if the team makes zero moves during the offseason. That will basically be the "Just stop caring so much man" signal for me until we get a new owner.

The fan base has already been insulted multiple times, I doubt one more insult is going to have impact on a team with one of the worst attendances in the league already?

The fanbase for the sixers doesn't really exist all that much until they start winning and contending for titles. No move they make this off season (including obtaining a back up point guard) is going to make them title contenders or make the average fan care more about the sixers than they do Temple, St Joes or Villanova basketball

I want Turner to be the backup point guard.

I'm not sold on that. With Turner at the point and Lou at the two, who guards the opposing team's PG? And how the hell do we stop penetration?

Stan reply to Brian on Jul 19 at 11:53

It all depends as whether or not Turner is a good defender. Anyway it's still better that Green/Williams.

If Lou does play it should be as an offensive lift. Maybe 10-15 mins a game.

I also don't think you can rely on Turner for heavy minutes at the two, and being the backup PG for Jrue. That's a heavy workload. Maybe you find him a couple minutes at the point throughout the game, but you still need a legit ballhandler to run the team for 10-15 minutes/game, depending on how many minutes Jrue is playing.

If Lou's on the court you're ALWAYS going to have a defensive mismatch, whether it's Lou's inability to defend a 2 or Lou's inability to deny penetration. I'm not sure how Turner taking the ballhandling away from Lou changes that.

We have enough wing depth that we don't need Turner to play 35+ mpg at the 2. I start Turner at the 2, and play him backup point minutes.

Point blank, Turner's the second best point guard we have on the roster, and he may arguably be just as valuable there as he as at SG. He's not going to play major minutes there, because we have Jrue, but I don't want to waste his talents, either.

I wouldn't give Lou any minutes at the 2, I would give all those available minutes to Meeks.

I also would prefer to see Lou not get any minutes at the backup pg spot.

"Point blank, Turner's the second best point guard we have on the roster.."

Yeah, that's kind of a problem for me, because although I think he's probably more capable of handling the offensive responsibilities than Lou, I don't think he's capable of handling the defensive responsibilities. I'd like a legit backup PG, which this trade would accomplish.

Jason Mess reply to Brian on Jul 19 at 13:25

what about a undersized 2 that can guard a point guard.

I disagree. I want to see Turner get some time to run the point, without being relied upon to do it full time, to try to assess how useful he can be there in the NBA, and whether it may in fact be his best position.

Again, don't really care about winning this year nearly as much as evaluating.

You can accomplish that in a couple minutes/game. Don't think wanting to get a look at him at the point is a reason no to carry a legitimate PG on your bench, though. Honestly, as far as Turner goes, I'm more concerned with whether he can play SG in the pros than how he looks at PG. If PG winds up being his best position, I'm probably going to wind up really regretting this draft pick.

I disagree. I think it is reason enough not to carry a legit backup point guard, particularly not a young one signed full time. As I said, to me this year is about finding out what you have. I'd rather find out where Turner plays best at than worry about filling my backup point long term.

And I also disagree that you can accomplish that in spot minutes.

And I also disagree with not wanting to know whether Turner would succeed at point. To me, knowledge about your roster is never bad.

The question here isn't Turner or Sessions, the question is Lou or Sessions. Lou, presumably, is going to take away minutes from Turner at the two. Sessions would take away minutes from Turner at the point. Developmentally, I think the latter is far preferable.

In terms of on the court, making the team better or worse for the next three seasons, which should be at least taken into account once in a while by someone when we're talking about trades, having a guy who can come in and at least keep things under control on the defensive end, and run the offense in an efficient manner on offense is more important than having a guy like Lou play 20-30 minutes at the two, and he's cheaper.

Tom Moore on Jul 19 at 12:28

Stefanski on Iguodala's chances to make the 12-man team that will represent the USA at the World Championships in Turkey starting Aug. 28: "I think it’s a great opportunity for him. When you’re putting a team together to go overseas to play, a guy like that who can guard 1s, 2s and 3s and play multiple positions at the offensive end is a guy that they’ll look at closely."

USA national team camp starts Tuesday in Vegas. First practice will be shown on NBA TV from 3-5 p.m. EDT.


Stan reply to Tom Moore on Jul 19 at 12:55

Team USA is stacked at SF and SG.

Lebron James
Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant

Kobe Byrant
Dwayne Wade
Joe Johnson

Tom Moore reply to Stan on Jul 19 at 12:56

Believe Durant is the only one of those six playing this summer. Everybody else you mentioned opted out.

Stan reply to Tom Moore on Jul 19 at 13:23

WTF?, That's awful. Please tell me that atleast Dwight is playing.

Our new linuep:

Kevin Durant
Andre Igoudala
Rudy Gay

Derrick Rose
Tyreke Evans
Evan Turner*

*crosses fingers that he is good enough by then.

Dean reply to Stan on Jul 19 at 13:29

Perry Jones will be the SF. I hope the Sixers pick in the 2-5 range next year. That kid is going to be a stud

Tray reply to Dean on Jul 19 at 13:57

Chance of picking in the 2-5 range seems small, no?

That all depends if you think the sixers are better, worse, or the same as last year.

I believe they'll be in the upper half of the lottery again.

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jul 19 at 15:43

Different coach + Turner, even if he is a quasi-bust = better. Sam's loss notwithstanding.

Tray reply to Tray on Jul 19 at 15:44

Oh and the emergence of Jrue.

And how much better does that make them really?

To be fair, even a flatline probably isn't going to result in a top-two pick. They got extremely lucky last season. 27 wins is probably 6th pick or worse.

Well like I said, top half of the lottery (1-7) is where I expect them to be.

yeah, I was agreeing with you. i think.

i hate mondays.

Tray reply to GoSixers on Jul 19 at 18:17

The emergence of Jrue could make a pretty big difference, couldn't it?

After the experience of Thaddeus Young's first season and following seasons, I'm trying to not get over the top about it.

There's a lot of the same issues there were last year, but even the emergence of Jrue Holiday doesn't make up for the complete and total loss of defensive presence the sixers gave away for a two chumps

Dean reply to Tom Moore on Jul 19 at 13:40

Are they withdrawing for 2010 AND 2012?

Tom Moore reply to Dean on Jul 19 at 16:09

Just 2010 world championships. Would expect everyone would play in the 2012 Olympics.

"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team,' " Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. "But that's ... things are different. I can't say that's a bad thing. It's an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

I get what he's saying, but Bosh is not even in the same galaxy as those players.

Can we do this trade right now? I agree on the need for a backup PG and I didn't even know that Sessions' contract is better than Lou's.

It sounds almost too good to be true, which is why the FO won't do it. Darn.

I cannot believe that you guys are willing to give up the better player in the trade, because the one you will get is a better fit in a meaningless season.

I agree with Derek that Turner should get the backup PG role. Players are groomed that way all the time in the NBA (PFs play some SF as rookies, SFs play some SG...). Also this will open up minutes for Meeks at SG, who we all keep forgetting.

I love Sessions as a playmaker and he is a very good passer, but he can't shoot at all and he is a below average defender. He simply won't help our team in the long run...

(a) Lou is a better scorer and a better athlete. In a vacuum, a better player. When you're talking about roles, and both sides of the floor, it's pretty much a wash.

(b) The player we get back is a better fit in three meaningless seasons, not just one.

Out of curiosity, where did you fall on the Dalembert trade?

I was against it. Strongly. However i am willing to wait and see what happens in the following seasons, before i can judge it.

Alvin reply to Xsago on Jul 19 at 18:19

I think Lou is a luxury at this point. We have enough gunners who don't do much else (Speights, Willie, Meeks), as well as the most reluctant 3-point specialist in Jason Kapono. His one asset is penetrating and getting to the lane, but he doesn't create for others and too often he just starts chugging jump shots up.

Kapono's and Green's contracts are expiring so Lou's the one I'd move. I'm not a fan of his childish Twitter rants.

I see Sessions as a strong backup at an increasingly important position and at a good price. Granted Lou can be considered the better player but Sessions would be a better fit here, and Lou would be a better fit somewhere else.

I don't get all this talk about Turner being the backup PG. We have one that I think we are all pretty high on right now that could be a force at both ends of the floor. After his performance in Summer League, I want to see him play the position he was projected to be, the scoring 2 guard. The Summer League wasn't a good show for Turner, which is worrying. Let's see how he coexists between Jrue and Iguodala.

I actually think he can play point guard as he has a great handle and an idea of how to run pick and rolls, etc. Still, if Jrue continues at this pace, there will only be about 12 minutes a game for a PG to play besides Jrue. I'm pretty confident Turner could do most of that time.

First and foremost, let's see how he plays between our other two best players. That should be the primary goal of evaluation.

Who is the back up PG that everyone is high on, because as of now that have no one who I see as a legitimate back up PG aside from Evan Turner (Jrue Holiday can't play 48 mpg)

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jul 19 at 17:50

We also don't have a starting shooting guard and Turner is a guy who can fill that role, hence my point: Turner is more important as a shooting guard than a point right now because if he fits that role well, we can cement three spots in the starting five for the immediate future. I want to see how he plays between Jrue and Iguodala.

Sure he can play the point for a couple of minutes when Jrue is out, but Jrue is becoming a guy who is going to play 36 minutes, all at point. I'm confident Turner can play point when he's out because I saw him do it at Ohio State. He can run a team, but that's not really going to be necessary. I want to see him do Evan Turner things alongside Jrue.

Playing with a guy like Lou will not help Turner as a backup point guard. I think people have visions of him playing his college game for spurts which he could do. Lou is not a guy that will help him do that.

Turner can play multiple positions, (so can Iguodala actually) and you shouldn't put him in a box until you figure out what he can and can not do. It's ridiculous to not consider him as a back up point, or playing the point some time, as he did it a lot at Ohio State this year and did it quite well.

He's a better point guard than any of the other options.

Who said he had to play with Lou if he played point?

Rich reply to GoSixers on Jul 19 at 18:25

Since when is making the top priority having Turner play alongside Jrue and Iggy putting him in a box? That's why we drafted him, right? He will be a suitable backup point but that's not as big of a priority. Backup guards are not the foundation of winning teams. He will play point but the big thing is seeing how he coexists with Jrue and Iggy. I thought that's pretty well known.

johnrosz on Jul 19 at 17:34

Lou Williams sucks. I'm tired of watching his poor mans AI act out there. Laughing it up when he gets torched on the defensive end. I kind of think it's a lateral move, but I think Sessions is probably a lot less of a jackass. Collins is in for a rude awakening if he thinks he can get Lou to play defense. If he actually can get Lou to try to defend, it will be a miracle.

My problem with Lou is, if his shot isn't falling, he literally gives you nothing on the floor. He doesn't defend, he's not a good passer or creator. He sucks.

L.Williams makes more than Sessions but what player gives this team more value? It was said earlier that there are about 12 minutes of p.g. time left after Jrue!s time so is 3.5 million for 12 minutes a night worth it? Lou gave more value than that last year because we had trouble scoring at times but this year he may be needed less with Turner here.

I want Lou gone for cap relief and a draft pick so Turner and Meeks can have his minutes and a veteran minumum guy can sit and caddy for Jrue and Evan, a K.Ollie or A.Carter type who won!t bitch when minutes aren!t there.Or a young guy like M.Green or T.Rice, both happy to be in the league and one a good defender and the other a 3 pt. threat.

For the record, I was a big fan of Sessions heading into last seasons. Before Jrue I saw him as a possible starting PG for this team.

That said, I would not be a big fan of the Lou for Sessions trade. Sessions is like a smaller Turner, in that he does not have elite quickness to blow by his man and can't shoot. So he is a poor off the ball payer who can be effective if you let him dominate the ball. So exactly the wrong type of guard to pair with Jrue/Iguodala/Turner.

While Lou has his faults, he is as good as anyone in the NBA at blowing by his man and putting pressure on the defense. He can be effective in an off the ball hybrid guard role- like he played next to Andre Miller and next to Jrue. He can punish teams that leave him open by quickly attacking the lane and drawing fouls.

So IMO, Lou is perfectly suited to give you minutes alongside Jrue/Turner/Iguodala. He can let the otehrs be more the point, and he can be a weapon that keeps the defense honest.

Lou is a developing player. Look at last years numbers:

Usage 21% (less than Thad, Iguodala or Brand)
FG%: 47%
3pt%: 34%
Asst: 4.2
T/O: 1.7
A/TO: 2.5 : 1
PER diff: +4
Opp PER at PG: 15.9 (Holiday's opp PER was 19.3)

IMO Lou improved his defense against PG's dramatically last year. he was no longer a "pick magnet." And on this roster he will never have to cover SG's, unless it is a favorable match-up.

Old School Sixer Fan reply to tk76 on Jul 19 at 19:48

Nice analysis. I hadn't realized Lou did so many things fairly well. I knew he had his best year offensively, but didn't realize his assist to turnover ratio was that good. Actually he seemed to do OK on the defensive end when he really tried. Problem was he didn't try often enough. Perhaps if Collins makes his minutes based on defensive effort, Lou might respond.

Yeah, I think Jrue had a solid season last year, and at 23, was starting to find his way.

I'm not blind to his faults. I just think that having J/T/I to play next to huim will help minimize these faults... while Sessions would not thrive ion this team.

Sorry, meant Lou :)

Jrue had a good season last year, and we were all looking at it through rose colored glasses, since he was only 19. I certainly have higher hopes for Jrue than Lou...

Lou actually reminds me some of Salmons when he was a Sixer. Salmons tried to do too much and hurt the team by not playing to his strengths- but became much more effective after 4=5 years in the league. I'm hopeful that Lou will similarly grow into a positive type p[layer on the floor, as he tries to do less, but more effectively.

I agree with everything you said but my question is more about what he makes versus minutes played; do you think he may get more s.g. minutes than Turner next year? Say Turner gets 12 p.g. minutes and 20 s.g. minutes and Lou gets his 24 p.g. minutes.

I think either Lou or Thad will get squeezed.

J/I/T: 105 minutes

That leaves 39 minutes at PG/SG/SF.

Thad, Lou and Nocioni can play with any 2 of J/I/T. I would gladly drop Nocioni from the equation and everything would be fine (20+ minutes each given Thad can play some at PF.), but signs point to 20 minutes for the Argentinian Mullet. So unless there are injuries freeing up minutes, someone will be squeezed.

I realize Lou was efficient last season, I also believe having him on the floor hurt more than it helped in most situations. If he's on the team this season, they're going to have to continue to find ways to hide him on the defensive end and they're going to have to find minutes for him either at the two (which hurts the development of Turner and Meeks) or at the point (which hurts the team because he is not a point guard.)

When you look at the makeup of the roster, you've got Iguodala, Turner, Meeks, Thad, Nocioni, Green, Kapono and Lou who all play the two or the three. You've got Jrue and maybe Turner to play PG. I want Turner playing the vast majority of his minutes at the two, learning to play off the ball and seeing how he fits with Jrue/Iguodala. If you can replace Lou with Sessions, you've got your second legitimate PG in the rotation, which makes it easier to get all of these guys minutes, you can rest Jrue without putting a defensive liability on the floor, and you can continue to run your offense.

Sessions is a terrible shooter, you can't dispute that. But he does get by his man, he does get into the lane and he does get to the line. He also has a very good career assist-to-turnover ratio (much better than Lou's).

He brings a lot of the positives Lou brings, without the negatives, he's got good size and he plays a position of need for less money.

Salmons could play several positions because of his size and skills, Lou can't play any position fully because of his lack of size and lack of skills, that's the main difference between those two guys, imo.

Lou and Sessions both were is similar positions last year. Age 23, back-up minutes on a bad team where they were the odd man out at PG (often playing alongside another PG.) here is the comp:

Lou was flat out the better player. And Sessions is not a great defender where the difference is night and day IMO. Lou was improved defensively guarding the PG position- which is all he will be asked to do as a reserve on this team. I think he can stay in front of most 2nd team PG's, and abuse them on the other end.

Again, I do not see Lou as a starter, But I think the emergence of Jrue and Turner really helps Lou, because he will not be asked to do things he is not good at (like running a team.)

I think people forget that at age 21 and 22 Lou was frequently sent out with a second unit where there were no other scorers and no other ball handlers. he was asked to carry the team0- and was a negative, inefficient player. he will not be asked to do this if he is playing alongside Jrue or Turner or Iguodala. And the increased efficiency last year will only improve. And likewise, his improved defense will only improve when teamed with strong defenders instead of Willie Green.

See, now you're comparing Lou in a system that really fit him, imo, and Sessions in a system that was just a horrible, horrible match for him in Minny. If you want to see both of them in systems that played to their strengths, use this comp.

As for improved defense, you can go back through the game threads. There were probably 2 or 3 games all year where his defensive effort was there. His defensive numbers look decent because no matter who he was on the floor with, he got the cake assignment and they had to cover for him. He's a liability on that end because of his size, his effort and his technique and if you have a backcourt of Turner and Lou, there are going to be serious defensive problems.

Yeah, those numbers are more comparable. Again, I'm a fan of Session. I just think he would be a bad (horrible) fit next to 2 non-shooters.

If you wanted a limited PG who would be a good fit- think Calderon (although way too expensive.)

No defense, and too expensive. Sessions, Turner, Nociono. Sessions, Iguodala, Kapono. Sessions, Turner, Thad. I like any one of those trios better than anything with Lou in them.

The shooting is definitely a drawback, but for the price, you really aren't going to do much better, and it's already a sunk cost in Lou, you're actually saving money and adding a piece for the same length.

I see Sessions as Andre Miller-like. He is crafty with the ball. But the Sixers have an overabundance of ball handlers (a downside for Lou as well.) They would benefit from a guy who can shoot/score, but maybe lacking true PG skills. Sort of the opposite of Sessions IMO- and Lou (at least age 23) was closer to the mark.

Then again, fit should play little role in the Sixers thinking right now. And Sessions is a good player for his contract- so I would not be completely opposed to that deal. I just think people are quick to want to give away guys like Lou, Speights, Thad and even Sam, when they would be a lot less exposed on a better team. Amd I'm hoping at least the 1/2/3 combinations will be better with the addition of Turner and Collins and the maturation of Jrue.

Lou/Jru/Iguodala IMO is better than those Sessions combos. And Jrue/Sessions/Iguodala will not work.

I don't see why they'd ever play Jrue, Sessions, Iguodala, but if they did, Jrue is a better option to stretch the floor than Lou. If that makes sense.

eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Jul 19 at 22:33

If Lou could play defense and give effort like he did in that Chicago game (it was on the road I think), he' be very passable as a defender. But that was maybe one of only a handful of times where he put forth that type of effort.

Lou did not receive the cake assignments when he played with AI.

Anyone else concerned about Turner ? I know the line "its summer league, he hasn't played organized ball since the NCAA tournament"...blah blah blah. But how come John Wall is dominating ? As well as Cousins and Favors in his last game ? How come the layoff didn't affect them ?

Sure I'm concerned. One of Turners strengths was supposed to be how NBA ready he was.

But there's not much to do other than wait. And there is only so much you can worry about summer league. Given Turner's exponential growth through his 3 years at OSU, I'm pretty confident he is the type of guy who can adjust his game. Unlike an athlete only type like Carney, who could not ever adjust to the fact that his athleticism alone was not enough to be an NBA starter.

But his struggles do make me think Turner will benefit playing alongside Jrue and Iguodala. Because he did not seem ready to respond to being guarded by athletic SF's. I think his match-ups will be more favorable if the other team has to use there best defender on Iguodala. For example, he will be guarded by Courtney Lee instead of Terrence Williams, Kyle Korver istead of Deng.

So I think Turner should thrive against team's weaker defenders this year, and then be ready to step up to where he can thrive against the top defenders in a year ofr two when he has fully transitioned to the NBA.

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Jul 19 at 22:47

Curious as to why you would term his growth "exponential" for those 3 years? Just because his numbers increased each year? I mean, your across the board numbers should increase if you have the ball in your hands every time down the court.

The only growth I noticed was his increased turnovers as a result of Matta playing him as his main ball handler and creator. Granted, he did grow into this ball dominant player being forced into that role, but it appeared that was his best position/role as he progressed throughout the year.

Which is why I differ on him adjusting to this off the ball, coming off screens type player. If you have a semblance of a handle/dribble, it's much easier to transition to having the ball in your hands 80% of the time as a facilitator. Whereas, if you've never really been this off-guard scorer/shooter while factoring in his average athleticism and especially marginal quickness, the transition the other way becomes a much tougher one; particularly when moving up a level, much less trying to do that on the same level.

By your definition players should be putting up Turner type seasons every time they get to play PG in their junior year. Yet many prospects slip the longer they stay in college.

If you do not think Turner upgraded his game each year then I probably will not be able to convince you. Basically he went from non-prospect -> mid lottery -> consensus #2 pick(28 of 30 GM's) over his 3 years. I would think draft stock takes into account more than just minutes and how much you have the ball.

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Jul 19 at 23:53

Come on... rising draft stock suddenly equals transitional success to the next level? Along with positional/role change? It's just as much an inexact science as recruiting on the high school level.

Truthfully, by my definition, that Turner type season playing PG in his junior year makes the positional/role change that much more difficult, no? I mean, he had his most success while playing that PG role.

Sure draft stock takes more into account than minutes and ball-dominance, but it doesn't take into account a team holding the #2 pick already possessing a rising point guard and a wing whose strength is facilitating, selecting a ball-dominant player with the intent to turn him into an effective off-the-ball shooting guard who possesses limited quickness and athleticism with an undeveloped long range jumper either.

You said he did not improve. I gave evidence to why I think he improved. I realize you are not a fan of Turner.

My original point was that one of his strengths is that he has been able to develop his game a lot as compared to his peers. This suggests he should be the type of player who can adapt to new challenges. Do you disagree with this?

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Jul 20 at 9:34

Uh-ohhhhhh....Flashbacks from last year are appearing. My concern over my fav team's draft pick transitioning to a new position on a new level equates not being a fan of said player?

I do somewhat disagree. As I stated above, as a player if you already possess a decent handle/dribble then adapting to being given majority control of the ball isn't a tall task (a task that he seemed to function best in except for the high amount of turnovers). Now, adapting to a new challenge of going to a position that puts you in catch-and-shoot situations and consists of tons of off-the-ball movement which requires quickness is far from a given.

Just because any player adapted or developed a part of their game in college one way, you can't look at that and say they will then adapt on a complete 360 and be successful, not even mentioning going up a level and doing it.

johnrosz reply to Gdog on Jul 19 at 23:00

Cousins actually finished out the week terribly, had 10 turnovers in one of the games. Almost got into a fight. After the 4th game, he shot 20 percent from the field. I guess since the summer league has all of a sudden become the number one indicator of nba success...we have to write him off as a bust don't we???

Wall is really the only one that was dominant. I think everyone else was on par with Turner.

I played with sessions in high school...god he was good then, dropped 50 several times each season. The announcer used to roll the R. RRRRRRRaammmonn Sessions.

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