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Pressing Questions - August 20

I think the bigger part of the defense is the bigs doing their share to protect the rim. The kind of defense I want is aggressive, with the backcourt switching everything, playing passing lanes, getting steals, which all leads to transition.

The problem is that the kind of defense I want means that guys will get in the lane from time to time. The bigs are going to have to use great positioning and rotation to meet penetrating guards before they get to the rim.

The problem is going to be individual defense in the post, an area where Sam was very strong. That's where I'm skeptical.

I'm with you on the pressure D. I'm kind of worried that they won't really be able to properly apply the pressure on the perimeter if it's a free trip to the rim every time they get burned. And honestly, every time Sam has been out of the game over the past couple of seasons, that's exactly what's happened. Someone is going to need to do something to protect the paint, otherwise those perimeter defenders are going to have to sag off to completely cut off penetration.

That's my concern right now, anyway.

I still thing Iguodala leads the team in scoring. Not by much but he will. I think the bigs will be the problem on the defensive end of the court. Sammy D was slightly better than Hawes in blocks per game with less personal fouls per game. The biggest weekness of the bigs last year was defensive rebounding. I'm not sure if they have an answer for that yet. Sixers just can't give up the three like they did last year.

I agree with Rich, I am less concerned with shotblocking and the bigs helping than when we face the few bigs still in the league that are good in the post.

Collins will find ways to make it work, either with less open 3!s available or funneling drivers towards Elton. The question will always be how good defensively we could of been with Sam? But evidently he wasn!t an option for them.

Would it be a surprise if Elton led us in scoring? I said it the other day; what p.f. has better passers at the other 4 spots than him in the whole league?

Related- I'm more concerned about securing D-boards. Interior defense will be a weakness, but if you can't secure D-Boards you will lose.

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bebopdeluxe on Aug 20 at 9:30
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By far, the biggest improvement on defense will come from better perimeter defense, IMO...even before the ABORTION that was EFJ's defensive principles (your best defenders are your best offensive players), our perimeter defense has been atrocious for years, IMO...and the primary value that Sammy brought to the team was cleaning up after somebody's jock got left out on the wing.

I think that Collins' primary focus (at least based on the comments that he has made about Jrue and Iggy) will be on-the-ball defense...staying in front of your man, not allowing easy dribble penetration...which - if we are successful - will mean 1) less need for somebody like Sammy to make up for an inability to keep opposing players out of the lane, 2) more of a need for our bigs to "body up" in the post as there will be more of an emphasis on passing into the lane as opposed to driving into the lane and 3) an increased ability for our bigs to defend the pick and roll (something that none of our bigs - including Sammy - were particularly good at).

If our perimeter D tightens up, then I think we will have less relative need for having a player like Sammy back there to clean things up, and the benefits of getting Sammy out of here (particularly on the offensive end) outweigh the drawbacks of him being gone.

If Speights takes most of Sammy's minutes, you've got a point about better offensive production in Sammy's absence at the five spot. Hawes has been a worse offensive player than Sammy through his first three seasons, though. Much worse, actually. Unless he makes a dramatic improvement, you're talking about a downgrade on both ends of the floor, with passing being the only area of improvement.

When a team game plans against you the quality of you interior defense effects what they will try and do.

Teams going against the 2000's Pistons knew that with the Wallaces in the paint you would have to beat them with jumpers. Even AI could not effectively score in the paint against them.

On the Flip side, going against a team like the Pacers without interior defenders leads teams to try and get into the lane as much as possible. That will be how teams approach the Sixers. Hopefully good perimeter defense can counbteract this somewhat.

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eddies' heady's on Aug 20 at 9:44
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1) Iguodala (with Jrue a close second as I think DC will take advantage of his skills in pick-and-rolls)

2) Definitely (b). A rim protector is damn near vital.

3) No. It wouldn't matter if there was no goaltending after the ball is on the rim because Sam would be lost somewhere on the perimeter after screwing up on the endless pick-and-rolls ran in international play.

Wouldn't you just play a zone and plant Sam right under the rim?

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Aug 20 at 10:38
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Eh, then you'd get killed by three's, no?

Depends how good your perimeter defenders are, I guess. Don't a lot of teams play zone in international ball?

Zone can be effective against the 3pt shot. Its more that in the NBA zone tends to mean pack it in and dare teams to shoot. But there are zones like a 3-2 or 1-3-1 that take away outside shots at the expense of interior defense.

European slap fight, capped off by Nenad throwing a chair and then running away.

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MylesKong reply to Brian on Aug 20 at 10:29
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That vid is the greatest! Stick and move, Nenad...stick and move, throw!

Bonus:

Sam's goaltends are usually while the ball is in the air. You can't do that in any league. I don't remember him taking it off the rim too often.

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Aug 20 at 10:58
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He didn't take one off, but he did put one in while on the rim this past year helping our lottery chances costing us the game. Forget who it was against?

I mostly remember when he tried to dunk Iguodala's game winning 3 pt attempt- but I think he both goal tended and missed. We will miss at least some of the comic qualities of Sam's game (well at least some of us :)

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Aug 20 at 11:03
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Trying to smooch Dwight Howard after getting elbowed has to rank near the top.

Read the comments from the Orlando fans... its always amusing to here crazed fans go off.

Didn't he try to smooch Hedo in the next game? Pretty sure Howard elbowed him and ran away (and should've been ejected from that game).

beat you to the punch

So Dwyer had Iguodala ranked #5 among shooting guards, but then decided to count him as a small forward instead.

It looks like he didn't count Joe Johnson as a shooting guard, which doesn't make much sense to me, but I'm guess he'll have Iguodala as the #4 small forward. The guys he'll probably have ahead of him are LePippen, Melo and Johnson. Possible others are Pierce and Gerald Wallace. I'm assuming he'll get to that list today.

If you compare 09-10 stats for Sammy and Hawes it's almost a wash. Even the two head-to-head games. I've haven't seen Hawes play much but I've seen the difference Sammy makes when he's working hard on defence. I don't know if Hawes can give you that same presence in the lane. Speights has shown he can rebound but they're not hustle, block out, get physical rebounds. They're more of the loose ball, end of quarter, missed free throw rebounds. He's gotta get tougher in the paint. The X factors are Brand, Nocioni and Smith. All three are willing to do the dirty work I just don't how many mins either will see. As far as perimeter defence is concerned, you can have a team giving up threes and then can't make any themselves. It won't work.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=9aWBw

It's a wash huh?

Sam does better offensively and defensively than Hawes last season, but how do you look at it and see a wash?

Sammy vs Hawes is definitely a wash. Sammy has s slight edge is rebounding and blocks. Hawed holds a slight edge in points and assists. Sammy has better FG% but Hawes attempted 87 threes. Turnovers are bout even. That seems like a was to me.

Thadeus for Fernandez in a heartbeat.

Taking 87 threes is no accomplishment when you only hit 26 of them. It's actually extremely poor offense, just like a center shooting 46.8% from the floor and only getting to the line 2 times per 36 minutes. Sam was better than Hawes in every meaningful statistical category last season, except for passing. You can make up your own mind on how high up on the list of important stats for a center assists falls.

There's no way to spin this swap as a wash. Points-per-game is a horribly narrow way to judge players.

I don't have to spin anything. 10 ppg is better than 8 ppg. 9 rpg is better than 6 rpg. 3 apg is better than 1 apg. 54% fgp is better than 49% fgp. 1 bpg is equal to 1 bpg. Where's the spin? That's simple math!!
Those 87 threes are horrible. Totally horrible!! If he does that here I'll kill him.
Why do the stats Hawes did better in mean nothing but the ones Sammy did better in hold value? Sammy's biggest flaw was he had no basketball IQ. The game never seemed to come to him naturally. I do think Sammy is a better player but it's not by much.

This is a waste of time, but whatever.

10 points-per-game is not necessarily better than 8 points-per-game, just like 9 rebounds-per-game is not necessarily better than 6 rebounds-per-game. If player A is playing 48 minutes and grabbing 9 rebounds, but player B is playing 24 minutes and grabbing 6 boards, which one is a better rebounder? If player A is taking 12 shots to score 10 points, but player B is taking 5 shots to score 8 points, which one is a better scorer?

I'm not sure why you see 1.8 blocks/game and 1.2 blocks/game as equal numbers. Even if you're into rounding, they aren't even close to equal. When you look at the block numbers on a per/36 basis, Dalembert blocked 2.6/36, Hawes blocked 1.6/36. That's a major difference.

Dalembert scored much more efficiently than Hawes, even if Hawes scored more points. Their rebounding isn't even close. Dalembert averaged 3.5 more boards/36 and if you look at percentages, which tell a more complete story, the gap is even wider. Again, in every area of the game except passing, Dalembert was a superior player, and superior by a wide margin.

If you look at the comp and can't see the difference, or can't get past per-game stats, there's really not a whole lot I can do for you except urge you to take a little time and dig deeper than the simple counting stats.

Well if you're stuck in counting stats, than it's not so much spin as ignoring the more advanced better rebounding stats and usage rates and win shares that all make it very clear that hawes isn't as good as sam -

Sammy vs Hawes is definitely a wash.

It's really really not, it isn't definitely a wash just because you say it's so. The numbers indicate sam was better overall on both ends of the floor the past season, not picking and choosing categories to try and make your argument, it ALL factors in. And maybe Spencer Hawes mother or agent would try and rationalize it as a wash but when you look at the whole pictures, it's just not. IT's sad to find out that sam was better over all offensively than Hawes last year, because that means while hawes may have a better repertoire he's obviously working with a lower basketball IQ offensively than Sam, and I didn't think that was possible

Any thoughts on Sixers putting together a package for Rudy Fernandez?

Unless they move Lou, where would they even find minutes for him?

He's not happy being a back up in Portland, why does anyone think he'd be happy being a back up in Philadelphia?

I'm not sure it's about being a backup, I think it's more that his role shrunk and he didn't like just being a spot-up shooter. Plus, I don't think it's much fun to play with Brandon Roy unless your name is LaMarcus Aldridge. It's definitely not fun if you're a guard who likes to touch the ball.

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raro reply to GoSixers on Aug 20 at 12:26
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Would it be entirely unreasonable to start Rudy and Jrue in the backcourt together?

Meaning Turner off the bench? Or Turner at the 3 and Iguodala at the 4?

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raro reply to Brian on Aug 20 at 12:49
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I was thinking Turner off the bench...

Rudy is only 25 years old, and considering his trade value at the moment, could be had for cheap. I like his shooting, back-door cuts and contract. A big upgrade over Lou IMO, and insurance at the 2 if Turner struggles. What's not to like?

Of course, I don't think we have anything Portland wants...

If they did move Lou there would be minutes. Turner could get some bac-up PG minutes.

Minutes
PG: Jrue(35), Turner(13)
SG: Turner(20), Rudy(25), Meeks(3)
SF: Iguodala(36), Thad(12)

Yep, if Portland wanted Lou I'd do it. Rudy's a better fit, IMO.

I wonder if long term Turner could play some SF if he bulks up.

If the team did trade away Iguodala at some point, could this group of players give you enough at 1/2/3 in the future?

Jrue/Lou
Rudy/Meeks
Turner/Thad

Maybe start Jrue/Turner/Thad and have Lou/Rudy as your primary reserves?

I need to see Turner play some real games. Based on what I saw in the summer league, I have my doubts about him playing the three.

Yeah, I don't know either. I do think Turner's rebounding and history playing PF is a good sign. Also, I think that combo of 6 players all have good complementary skill sets.

I'm not eager to trade Iguodala- but if it was part of a deal that brought back a really promising young big... That is why I'd like to know if they would be in OK shape at 1/2/3. The last thing you want to do is trade away a good player in their prime, and then be left with a big hole trying to replace him.

Yeah, I wouldn't feel comfortable at all doing that right now. I need to see more before I'd sign off on Turner/Thad/Nocioni/Kapono as my rotation at the three.

Some people like efficiantcy stats, I prefer hard numbers. Add up all Sammy stats you want it adds up to 8 PTA, 9 rebs, 1 block and 1 ast. I guess that's an "efficient" stat line.

Like I said, waste of time.

Hard stats. That made me laugh cause of the double meaning and you're referring to those simplistic analysis tools.

Here are the "hard stats":

In roughly the same number of minutes/game:

Sam grabbed 57% more total rebounds.
Sam blocked 50% more shots.
Hawes took 3 more shots in order to score 2 more points.
Sam's FG% was among the leagues best.
Hawes FG% was among the leagues worst for a Center.

So unless you are in love with Hawes stellar 2 assists, the numbers are not exactly a wash.

Like I said, Sammy is the better player but not by much. He shines on the defensive side of the ball when he's motivated but his offense has much to be desired. If Hawes shit 87 threes then Sammy had 87 alley oop dunks. That's noones fault but Hawes. To me it's just not apples and oranges. But how much can you really read into Sammy's stats? For an player of his age and experience there nothing to scream about. If Hawes or Speights can't improve on those numbers next season we're going to struggle.

I got a little bored and I was wondering whether Collins' defense liked to pack it in and make the opponents shoot threes. I thought it kind of pertained to today's topic.
This is where his teams wound up in attempts their opponents took and percentage (how well they defended it) in the league-
87- 21st (3rd lowest out of 23 teams), 22nd (that's really bad)
88- 20th, 3rd
89- 3rd, 15th
95- 8th, 17th
96- 9th, 17th
02- 15th, 15th
03- 13th, 22nd

My feeling on pressure D is that the more you crank it up, the less threes you give up. His numbers are all over the place in this regard. The jump from '88 to '89 in that category is staggering. The one counter is that help defense will give up open threes, but Collins is lauded for his defensive principles, so the 'Help, help, help some more' defense that Eddie Jordan used is ruled out.

Obviously, having a shotblocker to funnel drivers into would make things easier, but Iggy and Jrue know how to harass the ball without making wild Iverson-like gambles. I hope Turner does too. Collins should strive for that number in '89 (low amount of threes taken, low percentage), although I'm not sure how he feels about threes with these numbers because they're all over the place.

I'm more concerned with their ability to defend the three than the number taken by the other team. Number taken can be a misleading figure, especially if you're a very good team and opponents are always trying to play comeback.

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Rich reply to Brian on Aug 20 at 15:53
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Definitely, the quality of the looks is the main thing, but the number can tell you the kind of defense they play, aggressive, position, terrible (EFJ), etc. The more I think about it, pressure defense can lead to threes if the help is there to stop drivers. The big thing is the ability to rotate back to shooters, which we didn't see last year. Collins' three-point defense percentage numbers leave a lot to be desired.

I love the D the Pistons played around when they won a title- No big emphasis on help, everybody take pride in stopping their own man.

"No big emphasis on help", but they still had Rasheed and Big Ben backing them up.

don't underestimate the value of a strong deterrent.

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Rich reply to tk76 on Aug 20 at 18:06
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Haha of course I'm not denying that. I liked the way they did things though. You focus on your guy and and make it your job to stop him. With less help, they made people try to score over Ben and Sheed. Not a lot of threes to be had and a ton of success defending them.

To take care of this you need 4 good to great defenders and a shotblocker. We traded our shotblocker and if Turner pans out on defense, I'd like to think we have three guys who fit that category. Without an excellent post guy like Sheed and a shot-blocker, the three perimeter guys need to try and make stuff happen instead of simply trying to lock down.

I've been reading the Sammy - Hawes comments for a while and i just can't understand how "hollow" stats have become the only viable measure here on DF. I love stats, advanced stats and everything but they don't really tell the whole picture. You need to look at them from the right perspective.

Now, i'm on record saying that Sammy is a better player than Hawes and i still stand by it. But saying that he is a better offensive player than Hawes is ridiculous. Lets review Sammy and Hawes's strengths and weaknesses (i put + and - to get a better feel):

Sammy:

++ One of the best shot blockers in the game
++ One of the best rebounders in the game
+++ Really good post defender, and one of the rare players that can defend the best offensive big man in the league one on one (my favorite Sammy skill)

- Terrible passer
- Terrible vision of the offensive flow
- Takes too many ill advised shots out of the paint
--- Has 0 post moves and is complete non factor on the offensive end (alley oops are not an offensive weapon. Those points have far more to do with the passers than the guy actually dunking the ball) - His worst skill by far...

Summary: He makes the team worse with his terrible offensive play, but he more than makes up for it with his relatively stellar defense. He can guard the biggest post threat from the opposing team, but will efficiently and easily be shut down by the worse of the opponents front court defenders. All in all lets call him a +1 (from the pluses and minuses).

Hawes:

+++ A wide range of low post moves (his best skill)
+ Can make the occasional outside shot, thus spreading the defense
+ Is a solid and willing passer

-- Lacks the strength to bang in the post (his biggest problem)
-- Terrible man to man defender
-- Average shot - blocker and below average rebounder


summary: Hawes is a gifted offensive player who would've been among the leagues elite on the offensive end if he had the needed strength. His lack of strength, paired with the apparent lack of effort on the defensive end, makes him a serious liability. All in all a 0 (from the pluses and minuses)

I tried to avoid the chemistry and effort issues because IMO they go between really bad and downright terrible in this department and i would also like to reserve my judgement on this until i actually see Hawes play for the Sixers.

So in the end Hawes is the better offensive player, Sammy is the better defender and overall better player.

What i would like to see in the following season is the following:

Can Hawes become at least an average defender under Collins (doubtful but still...)?
How much will Brand gain on the offensive end by having Hawes next to him instead of the useless Sammy?
The answers to these 2 questions will give the answer to our long term future at the PF/C positions...


P.S. FG%,TS% and similar stats do not even begin to show who is actually a better offensive players. They are completely dependent on the opponents defenders, role in the offense, type of offense etc etc, and thus cannot be used for comparison without further investigation.

Sorry for the huge post btw, but i was holding this for a while and i had to spit it out :))

Your premise is that Hawes is a better offensive player than Sam, and thus any statistics that prove otherwise are 'hollow'. It's a standard practice. Statistics that disprove perception are hollow to those who can't just accept they are wrong.

In the past season
From 10-15 Feet
Hawes - 31.6%
Dalembert 35.6%

From 16-23 Feet
Hawes 40%
Dalembert 38%

But see, they're centers, so who gives a frack what they do from the outside, it's not their purpose, not on this team.


Hawes 46.7%
Dalembert 40%

At Rim
Hawes 59.4%
Dalember 67%

Does Sam turn the ball over more and have a lower assist rate, sure, but he's bad at that.

You know what Sam is GREAT at, rebounding, both ends of the court, one of the best in the league. You know what Hawes sucks at - rebounding.

What's TIRESOME about the whole Hawes argument is that people who want to talk about how great hawes is IGNORE THE THINGS HE"S BAD AT

They pick and choose and say 'hey look, hawes is just as good as sam' while ignoring the aspects of the game where SAM KICKS HAWES ASS

No one has argued that Sam is better than Hawes at this or that, they have argued that overall Sam is a better player than hawes, when you take ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME IN TO ACCOUNT

But, ignore the facts that don't support your argument and you consider 'hollow'

Ignore the efficiency numbers that indicate sam is more EFFICIENT both offensively and defensively than Spencer Hawes.

Ignore the 'win shares' that indicate that Sam contributes twice as much to wins than Hawes doesn.

They're 'hollow' because they prove you wrong.

The John Marzanno Pad Your Doubles LEgacy LIVES

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Rich reply to GoSixers on Aug 21 at 14:12
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I think you need to read Xsago's post again. All of the rebounding stuff he agrees with. He calls Sam a better player, what more do you want? Nobody here is arguing that Hawes is a better defender/rebounder. You are making points in all caps which he said in his post.

I don't completely agree with Xsago, mainly because Hawes' outside shooting isn't good and his passing is overrated (though it's better than Sammy), but I see where he's coming from.I didn't like the Hawes trade at all, because I value Sam's defense and rebounding, again like Xsago. You have to look at what you are seeing on the court to put it completely into perspective. The fact that Sam is a more efficient offensive player has to do with his role in the offense.

Sam did benefit a lot from alley oops, which is more credit to the passer than him. The 'at rim' number also shows a striking difference in the percentage of baskets assisted. Sam had 70 percent of his baskets assisted, while Hawes only had 56 percent. That's what happens when you have unselfish guys like Iguodala throwing you lobs versus a gunner like Tyreke Evans not passing. From what I hear Hawes has good post moves and uses them, so he's not getting wide open shots like Sammy, who couldn't score one on one to save his life. I haven't really seen Hawes play and would still rather have Sammy, but it's not a stretch to say that Hawes can be a better offensive player than Sammy in Philly.

The numbers don't back up what you're saying about Hawes in the post.

Hawes had 122 plays in the post, 0.65 points per play.

Dalembert had 116 plays in the post, 0.68 points per play.

Their minutes were pretty close. They're both horribly bad post players on offense. And finishing oops is actually a skill, one of the few Sammy has on the offensive end. It's not only a product of having willing passers on the team.

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Rich reply to Brian on Aug 21 at 14:34
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I've never really analyzed him playing in the post, just looked at Synergy a little. Again I'm skeptical, but Sammy was a god awful post player and I know that. I'm not happy about the trade, but you have to at least watch him play a year to see what he does. I suspect a better offensive player than Sam, but a much worse defensive guy.

You didn't mention the percentage assisted though. That does back up the fact that he receives oops more often. His career stats have a lot to do with Iverson, Miller, and Iguodala throwing oops. We know why Sammy got oops too, because teams helped off him. This got an occasional oop for him, but hindered driving lanes for other guys. The pass comes before the shot too, so we're going to disagree about it having more to do with the passer.

I watched about 100 of Hawes' post plays. His favorite move seems to be two or three dribbles (accomplishing nothing), then go middle and fling a wild hook shot over his shoulder that has no prayer of going in.

I agree that the passers have a lot to do w/ the oops, but Dalembert's finishing ability (an ability that Hawes does not appear to have) is also a factor.

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Rich reply to Brian on Aug 21 at 15:10
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He looks to be pretty good from about 10 feet from what I see on Synergy. He could make those shots, or make it easier for AI9 and Jrue to penetrate. Doesn't mean he'll rebound or defend though.

Hawes:

+++ A wide range of low post moves (his best skill) - 122 post up plays last season, 0.65 points per play, according to Synergy. 1.00 points-per-play is pretty much average production.


+ Can make the occasional outside shot, thus spreading the defense - 179 spot-up plays last season, 0.87 points per play, according to Synergy.

My point since they got Hawes is that all these "strengths" people keep talking about are complete fabrications. He's not a good post player, in fact, he's pitiful. He's not a good shooter who's going to spread the defense, he's a bad shooter who shouldn't be taking jumpers.

He's a flat-out bad offensive player, maybe he's bad in different ways than Sam was bad, but he's still bad. He's not an upgrade on either end of the floor and you're kidding yourself if you're expecting him to be.

Man, stop it with the hollow stats

Brian do you know of a stat (or anything resembling a stat) that measures the opponents defenders in the low post? That would be a nice stat to have.

The general reasoning behind my post is that opponents don't care about Sammy at all, throw the worse of the big man defenders currently on the court on him and very often leave him wide open to take those out of the paint shots. From the little that i've seen Hawes was always heavily guarded in the post. Unfortunately i don't have Synergy to back my reasoning.

Additionally, my view of a good offensive player is a guy that makes the team a better offensive team (same for defense). The biggest benefit that Hawes could potentially bring (we'll see soon enough if it happens) is that his presence will help modify the opponents defensive schemes enough to allow Brand and at some degree Igoudala be more efficient.

OK so we thought Elton was in shape last year. Apprarently that was a mirage. This year with a new coach who is more forthcoming not feeding us propaganda like Eddie Jordan here is a link with COllins comments on Elton's off season conditioning.

http://www.fanfeedr.com/nba/2010/08/20/collins-says-brand-ready-to-go

I haven't watched a lot of Hawes, but looking at his numbers, I suspect that he's a poor finisher with nice post moves. Great footwork doesn't mean a thing if you can't finish. Take Lamar Odom. Odom's a very skilled player, so why has he never put it together? Perhaps because he's a rotten finisher who, last year, only made 58% of his shots at the rim. And Hawes, with similarly poor at-the-rim numbers, is maybe a third of the talent that Odom is.

I'm glad I can spark two days of Hawes vs Dalembert debate. And it was only my second day on DP. Lol!
All this being said, if these two scored there points with one shoe, during a eclipse, on the moon, neither did jack shit to help there team win games. That's why I look at these two players numbers for what they are. How efficient can 8 ppg be? How much of an impact does 8 ppg have on a game? A season? If you tell Dalembert "At least your better than Spencer " he might slap you for insulting him.
Like I said these two are a wash statisticly.

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Rich reply to KellyDad on Aug 21 at 17:21
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As players they aren't really though. I wouldn't really get caught up in PPG, it doesn't tell the story. Sammy does everything on the defensive end and glass better than Hawes. Offensively he's more efficient, which is true but I feel that may have something to do with their situations. I want to see Hawes play in Philly before we say that Sammy is better offensively. Up to this point, Sammy is a better player though, no doubt about it.

Like I said these two are a wash statisticly.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. The greater point is that you want to maintain your statistical ignorance by ignoring the evidence presented to you that they aren't w ash, and yet like a good WIP listener you keep telling us they are and think just because you are obstinate, ignore facts and keep saying it it makes it true.

Doesn't work for presidents, doesn't work for you.

The Facts do not support your assertion. You choose to ignore the facts and continue to be silly, that's fine, but if you want to ignore facts when presented to you (and others) than Brian is right, it's a waste of time.

And the same goes for you. If Sammy shot 90% from the floor and 90% from the line and averaged 8 ppg by you standards he's the best center in the league. What's better a good 8 or a bad 10? Your being to smart for yourself.

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Rich reply to KellyDad on Aug 21 at 18:47
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The only argument was that Sammy is better than Hawes, which he has been. Nothing about the best center. A good 8 is always better than a bad 10?

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Old School Sixer Fan reply to KellyDad on Aug 21 at 19:18
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I just read through these posts, read all the statistics, raw and advanced. Every stat except PPG says Sammy is the better player, offensively and defensively. If a player takes 8 shots to make ten points and another player takes 4 shots to make 8 points, the 8 point player is CLEARLY the better player. The efficiency numbers aren't quite that bad, but you should get the point.

Efficiency is important because possessions are not unlimited. Missed shots are missed opportunities. About 70% of missed shots become defensive rebounds or opportunities for the other team.


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