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Rushing To Judgment?

deepsixersuede on Aug 25 at 9:33

I believe T.Young will show enough to be resigned but for how much is my main concern. I look at him as a matchup nightmare off the bench with a possible Rash. Lewis type role as a starter IF Collins can teach as we all hope he can do. Looking at what T.Outlaw and M.Bonner got payed is the area I see Thad getting his; if the organization sees him as a bench scorer by the end of this year offer Bonner type money and if they lose him they lose him.

L.Will., to me, seems to be a guy that could win playoff games with his special skill. If he realizes his role and becomes average defensively under Collins he will be worth his contract. His 3pt. shot, along with Thad will make the choice of keeping him easier, just hit 35 % at least.

I think you will be wrong about Hawes but you know how I feel. I watched him more in his one year of college than his N.B.A. career and he was less ready physically than Jrue to come to the N.B.A. and should of stayed in school. I just feel he isn!t done growing and can, and will, do everything better than Sam down the offensive end other than the alleyoop. He deserves a chance, like Marreese, Lou and Thad to be coached by a guy that can bring on his best possible upside.

D.Lynum made an interesting comment about Meeks recently; she said he may have the ability to come off the bench cold and hit a 3. Kapono needed minutes to loosin up to get hot but the last guy we had that could come out cold and bury one was Korver and that is a valuable skill to have.

I want to see the J.Smith from his rookie year, a guy that energized the team, blocked a shot, and set good screens. The only thing he did a little better last year was shoot from deep.He may, for the right price, become a valuable role player for 10 to 15 minutes a night if he improves a year removed from his surgery. A smarter, better shooting,better shot blocking version of R.Evans for 1/2 the price [2 mill. per] ?

Thad Young - I still think he can be a very efficient, if unorthodox scorer and above average defender at the SF spot. He needs to be given a chance to succeed though. That may not happen on the Sixers as presently constructed. In the right system i do think he can be a 3rd or 4th best player on a contender, when he matures and if he is properly coached on the defensive end.

Lou Williams - agree almost completely. I don't think his contract is bad (he's closer to a bargain in this market), but only on a contender. To us he is mostly useless.

Marreese Speights - Can be an allstar level offensive big man, with decent defense if he truly wants it. The later is very doubtfull though, so "allstar" is unachievable, not even close.

Spencer Hawes - unranked as a Sixer until we see whether he will finally add strength to utilize his abilities. If he doesn't we don't need to extend him even a qualifying offer, if he does he has the chance to be a very good player for the team ala Kaman.

Jodie Meeks - very good long range shooter who can become at least an average defender. Every team should have one of those.

Jason Smith - useless. Period.

To me, Lou Williams has been in the league long enough that he is what he is, whatever you think about him I don't expect him to change his game much.

I don't have a lot of hope for the guys you listed, but the ones who I feel can turn it around the most are Young and Speights. They (I believe) have the most natural ability and are still young enough (years in the league) that they could turn it around and be quite good on both ends of the court.

I don't know that either will do because I feel it's a matter of effort will and desire more than it is of ability.

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Aug 25 at 9:58

Lou is 23 and coming of a season where he dramatically improved. I'm not sure why he should be seen as maxed out while Meeks at the same age has upside just because of difference in NBA experience. Sure Lou will not transform his game, but he can still improve in all areas as he physically and mentally matures over the next 3 years.

Look at a guy John Salmons. He improved dramatically from his last year as a Sixer at age 26. Lou is 3 years younger. They are a good comparison because both had issues with the mental part of the game more than talent.

Joe reply to tk76 on Aug 25 at 10:21

I'm with tk on Lou here.

I have no clue who Lou is yet. Last year he was completely different than the previous year.

I believe Lou takes a step back when asked to play for a real coach who, you know, cares about and understands that defense is an important part of basketball

I didn't say anything positive about Jodie Meeks, I said Speights and Young (or at least I meant to). I have no interest in Jodie Meeks or any belief that he'll improve. Maybe his numbers will be 'bigger' because he gets more minutes, but I don't think he's going to be that good either

The good thing is the team has a bunch of young assets that help facilitate trades. The problem is most of them are low value right now coming off a bad season. But if Thorn has patience I believe many of them will increase in value this year.

Hypothetically, I could imagine Thorn going after CP3 in a year or two. By that time Brand will be closer to an expiring and Jrue and the other young players should have higher value. So a Jrue + Brand + young pieces for CP3 + Okafor could happen- leaving a line-up in 2 years of:

Speights (improved version :) )

Not saying that exact move will happen... but Thorn has a track record of trading for superstars in their prime. So having all of these young, cheap players as trading chips could really facilitate a big move.

Are you saying you think Turner would be the other young piece in the deal?

tk76 reply to Brian on Aug 25 at 10:26

I hate throwing out complete fantasy trades, because who knows what players would be involved and what would be fair value.

Lets just say either Iguodala or Turner would be moved for a high caliber playoff ready pure shooter. Because if you have CP3 than Iguodala and Turner will not be your wings.

ryano reply to tk76 on Aug 25 at 10:30

That team is very close to the team Paul is trying to leave right now. I don't see that being an improvement for us or for Paul. We'd be giving up too much. Jrue may never be the playmaker Paul is, but he has the potential to be a better shooter from deep and will be a better defender. Giving away Turner and our cap space along with him doesn't make much sense to me.

Who are the marquee free agents when Brand's contract is up?

Speculating that far out when there is a new CBA coming is a fools errand

tk76 reply to ryano on Aug 25 at 11:19

Depends what level shooter you get for Turner. Say its soneobne like Kevin Martin- then you have a much better team than the Hornets IMO.

I like Thad alot and I think he still has some good potential, but I don't think he'll ever reach it on this Sixers team, because he will always be stuck behind Iguodala at the 3 spot, and the team already has Lou as first scorer off the bench.

I think it would be best to trade him as opposed to having to commit dollars to him in free agency after the year. I would see if Indiana wanted to do a Thad + Brand for Dunleavy and TJ Ford. The pacers really need an athletic scorer off the bench and it seems like they want a veteran big to play next to Hibbert and fill the power forward spot after Murphy left.

I believe it would be the best move for the Sixers now because after the Sammy trade they kind of took themselves out of any serious playoff contention, and they could use the gained financial flexibility of the expiring contracts to go after a really solid center next year, say like Marc Gasol or Nene after he opts out.

Trading Thad would be sad in a way because most fans like watching him play and we keep waiting for him to realize his potential but this might not be the best spot for him, and honestly I don't think the team would be missing all that much on the court if they traded him this year.

But the Sammy trade also meant losing cap space this summer, since Nocioni is on the books for 7M. The will be up against the cap this summer.


The Sammy trade, as it worked out, didn't save the Sixers anything and gained them a large contract for next year as tk said.

Really just a terrible move. What is sad is that they must actually like Nocioni and Hawes, which is just ridiculous.

That's not entirely true.

The trade of Sam Dalembert guaranteed the sixers under the luxury tax for the 2010/11 season. I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head but I believe they saved about 3 million off the 10/11 salaries and I'm not sure if that 3 million would put them over the luxury tax or not.

It saved the sixers money going into this season

Joe reply to GoSixers on Aug 26 at 9:08

As the trade worked out the move wasn't needed to get under the luxury tax. They would have been really close to the line or marginally over. Enough that they wouldn't have had to take on 7 million more in contracts for next season to get under... just a terrible move as it worked out.

I like this exercise. I agree about Thad. I think his role will be more defined as a bench back up 3,4 player, but a good one. Perhaps other coaches couldn't define a role for him in the past. I hope that changes this season.

Another person I think you could be wrong about is Jodie. I think his potential is being the next guard off the bench, surpassing Lou. I say this because he has size over Lou (despite t-rex arms), is willing to defend, still relatively quick and can add a dimension this team needs in perimeter shooting. I think he needs more minutes, but I don't think he will see those minutes until Willie is off the team (or never if Willie's contract is extended).

Sixer fans got really down on all of your "six young players" last year. I see all of them as having a decent shot to be seen in a more positive light after the upcoming season - though actual long term recovery from injuries is still a concern with Speights and Smith. But in a categorical scheme where Iguodala, Holiday, and maybe Turner are the building blocks, I don't like the odds of any of them graduating to that level of "building block".

deepsixersuede on Aug 25 at 11:51

If Turner gets to Iggy!s level and becomes a #1 threat scoring wise will we be satisfied with our young guys being top 8 rotation role players? Can a big three of Turner, Iggy and Jrue win if this young group gets kept together and a Horford type is drafted or traded for?

I don't think so. The problem is that all of our role players are offensive. They can all score a bit, none of them can defend.

deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Aug 25 at 11:58

That is where Collins comes in. Ex.- Add Amundson to this group and draft a defensive p.f. and move Elton to the bench next year and maybe it works.Your right though, the next 2 players added must defend if we resign Young, Hawes and Marreese.

So you've added two 'defensive' PF's (Amundson won't sign here but let's say for a minute he would, and comcast would pony up the money he's looking for (they won't) in a long term deal), how exactly do you solve the problem of having no defense off the bench at the 1-2-3 while still maintaining a scoring threat as well.

And Elton Brand is still the best PF starting option on this team and most likely would still be over a rookie 'defensive minded' PF (what the hell does that mean anyway) and Louis Amundson

A whole lot of faith is being placed on a guy who hasn't coached in the NBA for a LONG time

deepsixersuede reply to GoSixers on Aug 25 at 14:30

Brian stated our young guys would all be offensive minded, my point is if two defensive minded players are added it could work. If you don!t know what a defended minded p.f. is, I can!t help you there. If you don!t have faith in Collins why watch the team, there would be no hope!! He found a Don Reid out of nowhere so hopefully he can find a young version of Amundson from undrafted guys and a good young p.f. will be there in next years draft.

usa exhibition v greece on espn right now

Ugh, forgot to set the TiVo. If you're watching give us an update when you can.

It's on ESPN3 right now (just checked) and ESPN3.com usually has the games archived.

Thanks, I'll check tonight. Can't get ESPN3 at work.

I've been watching the whole game, USA up 42-32 at half. Here's my way-too-long after the first half-

The 1st Unit (Rose, Billups, Durant, Iggy, Odom) plays excellent half court defense, but they still aren’t smooth or confident in the halfcourt offense. AI9 did not touch the ball in his first stint, which was a little more than 4 minutes. They plant him in a corner and work quck stuff for Rose and Durant, who are terrific. Rose has been making threes, and has been unguardable. They start out the game playing excellent defense, but they can’t score in the halfcourt. Odom’s inability to finish kills them too.

I think Gordon is playing himself into a rotation spot, and Curry is losing ground. It’s such a difference to have a physical beast like Gordon, and a small guard like Curry, who is getting posted up pretty effectively by other team’s guards- Steph hurt his ankle too, which hasn’t helped things.

Andre had a nice defensive stint in the 2nd quarter, made a steal, and just played solid defense. The first team plays excellent defense. If the pick and roll is what killed US against Greece in the past, it hasn’t today. They fight over the screens and the rotation was excellent.

I’m worried about Dre’s offense, he simply hasn’t been good there. His points came on a nice alley oop in transition from Durant, but in the halfcourt he’s been bad. He missed his two FT’s and they were pretty bad bricks. That may hurt his playing time in crunch-time minutes. He also made an unforced turnover and he took a transition three that was an airball. I cringed on the
airball, I can’t lie.

My rotation right now- Starting lineup plus Gay, Gordon, Chandler, Westbrook, Granger. The weak spot there is Chandler, who is pretty useless.

T McL reply to Rich on Aug 25 at 13:05

The small court/3 point line is absolutely killing this team. FIBA has to recognize that these men are simply too large to put inside such a small area. I know basketball shouldn't be just about athleticism, but dribble penetration (one of my favorite parts of the game) seems nearly impossible/useless in these games.

That said, it makes defense that much easier for them. It just sucks that with all the great offensive guards on this team we can't even see what they're capable of because of the clogged up court.

The FIBA rules aren't going to change. The selection committee needs to recognize this and change their thinking.

speekeasy reply to Derek Bodner on Aug 26 at 3:23

FIBA's gonna change within the next two years. They're already changing the trapezoid lane and moing back the three point line will probably follow.

Yeah I see what you guys are saying about the Nocioni contract taking away from the sixers cap space. The only thing worse than watching him play next year will be the knowledge that we may have to watch him play the following year if there's no lockout.

So if the Sixers are not caring about getting under the cap, and are going to resign Thad at some point next year, I think they should probably try to package Lou in a deal for Gortat. Orlando needs a guy who can go to the rim as that's not Redick or Lewis's strength.

Gortat is signed for 4 more years but he is only 26 so I don't think that is a problem, as he would be an expiring contract that could be traded after Brand comes off the books. His Defensive rating last year was 99, and his Defensive rebounding percentage was 24%. That sounds like a guy this team could really use.

If the Sixers are serious about trying to build a contender within the next couple years, as it seems they are since they drafted Turner instead of Favors, wouldn't this move be something they should consider since you can't rely on the draft to get a center who's ready to play?

The sixers care about the luxury tax. I doubt the sixers will make any significant contract moves until a new CBA is in place, and a new CBA will be in place before they have to decide on what to do with THaddeus Young (current CBA expires July 1, 2011)

Ugh, Dre now 0-4 at the line.

T McL reply to Rich on Aug 25 at 13:15

Iggy misses a three from the corner a few plays after a nice slam over one of the Greek players in the open court.

Form on the three looked good but hit back rim.

T McL reply to T McL on Aug 25 at 13:17

okay after i give him some support he goes and airballs his next three from the other corner.

He just had his 2nd huge dunk in transition, where he looks good. Problem is, this team doesn't play a lot of transition. Andre is playing the other team's best player.

Missed a quick catch and shoot three where I wish he would have attacked.

Damn, now he airballed another three.

Is Greece basically daring him to take threes?

jsmoove reply to Brian on Aug 25 at 13:31

They should be daring him which would be smart but the problem is you don't have to dare him cuz he's that in love with that arc for some reason.

Rich reply to Brian on Aug 25 at 13:37

Nah, he doesn't have the ball in his hands enough for them to do that. Too many threes by him for that reason. If it's Durant taking these shots, they are great shots off ball movement so they aren't bad looks. A disturbing trend I see in this game is him taking shots as soon as he gets it. That decision making element looks to be a little rushed. I wish he would just reattack the paint and make a play or get to the line.

Fraschilla has been hyping up Greece since the team was in Vegas. I don't know if I see it. I wonder where that Baby Shaq guy is, he didn't play today. International ball is weird, the Greece team just gave up in the 2nd Half and this is apparently common strategy.

It's just an exhibition, tourney starts this weekend

Europeans surrendering? No way.

Oh come on, sure the french are big pussies, but that's not all euros, just the french, and well, they're freaking french

Yeah. And all Americans are assholes.

Iguodala goes hot and cold from 3 (we've all seen it) but he isn't as bad as he's shown these last couple games. But if they're going to station him in the corner as the fifth option in the halfcourt, he's going to have a lot of games like this, where he only scores in transition. That would be disappointing, because his ability to create for others off penetration could really help against the best opponents (Greece didn't play like one today, but they are supposedly very good). I do think the USA was playing a lot of isolation offense in this game, not wanting to show too much -- and not much else was needed.

Rich reply to Statman on Aug 25 at 16:25

I'm at the point where I think his scoring will take a hit playing with that first unit. Durant is Option 1, Rose is Option 1A, Bilupps is the designated shooter, and Odom is the big. That leaves him to be a stationary shooter.

He doesn't score a lot in transition because he has to stay with the other team's best guy usually. That means no gambling for steals, which is the way this team has scored in transition so far. He looks amazing in transition though.

Out of the fringe players on the Sixers the one I would most like to see them keep is Speights. I usually like the players who are better defensively, but he is a talented scorer who can look awesome for long stretches, but then he disappears for games on end like he's lost in space.

Check out Speights's stats from the first 14 games of last season. In averaging 24 minutes a game, he got 14.1 points, 6.4 reb, 56% FG, and 76% FT. He was looking like he was going to be an impact player last year.

But then injuries, lack of consistent minutes, his own lack of effort and of course Eddie Jordan, and it was like he fell off the map completely. After Christmas he only played over 20 minutes in a game 7 times.

I don't think anyone has held Speights accountable yet and pushed him to be the better all around player he's capable of. I'm hoping Collins can get through to him in a constructive way, make him focus, and give him up to 30 minutes a game if he earns it.

Apparently Speights said the thing he is working on most this summer is the defensive side of the game. I'll believe it when I see some actual results, but I guess if he's serious about it, hopefully we'll be able to say to Marreese "Welcome back to earth Mr. Space Cadet. Welcome back to earth." :)

johnrosz on Aug 25 at 16:54

I think you've written off Thad way too soon. He had that month of sustained success under DiLeo when he was kind of the dynamic scorer/go to guy on offense. He really looked like he was breaking out before turning his ankle and missing a bit of time. This was the last time Thad played under a real coach...

It was February of 09 by the way. Thad averaged 20.5 ppg on 55 pct shooting, shot 37 pct from 3. He's not a power forward, and those of you expecting him to ever grab more than 5 boards a game are going to be disappointed. I think he can be a versatile threat on offense, and it's ill conceived to write off a 22 year old kid who was shown flashes/the work ethic to improve his game.

Is he a small forward? Has he shown the ability to play the position on either end of the floor to this point? I think he's got a better chance at the three, but I haven't seen it from him yet, and Collins seems to like him as a four.

johnrosz reply to Brian on Aug 25 at 21:53

Really, who defended well under Jordan? Even your boy Iguodala had an off year by his standards. There's no reason Thaddeus shouldn't theoretically be able to defend opposing small forwards. Absolutely none.

Whether or not he reaches his ceiling,at least Rod Thorn will be in charge of the decision whether or not to extend Thaddeus. Highly doubt Stefanski would make a prudent decision on that matter.

He had that month of sustained success under DiLeo when he was kind of the dynamic scorer/go to guy on offense.

And on defense?

Joe reply to johnrosz on Aug 26 at 9:18

Heh. Where is the rets of his line?

He had a nice little streak where he scored in bunches efficiently. I don't think he has the capacity to maintain that high of a level of efficiency... so he needs to contribute elsewhere and he just doesn't right now in his career.

Thad needs to score 20 a game at 50% shooting(give or take a little depending on 3PA and FTA) just to break even as a player for me and that is the sign of a player with no all around game whatsoever.

Iguodala shot some terrible airballs today...

Three things 1. The Sixers should have the 09-10 season removed from their careers. It was a disaster from game one. 2. Are S. Randolf and L. Admunsun that much better than Jason Smith? They sucked as Sixers! 3. Did I really just read comments about trading Evan Turner?

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