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Pressing Questions - August 27

If you mean "talent" as in Carmelo Anthony talent I say they have to find a way to be in the mix for him. He's the last bonified superstar on the market. The Sixers dont have anyone I wouldn't give up for Anthony. If it's not Anthony I stand pat with the current roster and ride it out with the expiring contracts in our favor. No other player available makes the Sixer any better over all.

Melo isn't a superstar. He's about as productive as Iguodala, and he's about to be grossly overpaid.

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deepsix reply to Brian on Aug 27 at 5:35
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Yeah, Melo is a superstar. Really don't understand the bias.

The bias is ignoring most of the things that Iguodala does and saying carmelo scores lots of points so he's much better than and a 'superstar'

Lebron James is a super star, Carmelo is not (he's not a badplayer, but neither is chris bosh, bosh ain't a superstar either)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=i2AYk

People need to learn to look deeper at the overall game of a player

I'm not a fan of Carmello or his game- but he is a top 10-15 NBA player. Iguodala is more like top 25-40.

You can't underestimate the impact of a guy who can score 26-28 pts/game reasonably efficiently (46% and 7.4 FTM/gm.) That puts a ton of pressure on a defense and takes a ton of pressure off of the rest of your offense. Similar to how Iverson was an effective star wyhen he was leading the league in scoring (and Carmello is less ball dominant despite his high usage rate.)

He's not getting killed on the other end. His opponent PER is 15, making his PER differential +10, which is one of the best in the game.

Just like you can't ignore the fact that Iguodala is a better rebounder, a better creator for team mates and a better 'stealer' than Carmelo.

PS - Why Does Iguodala have a similar career offensive rating to Carmelo if Carmelo is clearly better offensively? Just curios.

Defense is always there, even on cold offensive nights, defense it there, and Iguodala is a better defender than Carmelo.

I'd say they're both in the 15-20 neighborhood, and Melo is probably a couple slots ahead of Iguodala. I don't think the difference between the two of them is worth $8M/season, though. I'm also not sure how much better this team is w/ Melo/Turner/Jrue than they are with Iguodala/Turner/Jrue. He's another wing who can't shoot from deep.

I was thinking more of a trade built around Turner.

IMO Jrue(20)/Iguodala(26)/Melo(26) would be a tremendous combination. I don't care that they won't hit many 3's.

I'd be shocked if they could put together a package that didn't include Iguodala, but if they could get Melo and keep Jrue and AI9, you'd basically have what we're hoping will happen with Turner, a scoring wing next to Iguodala. So yeah, that would work.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2ct2mu5

Young/Turner/Kapono/Green

for

Carmello

I think that is a good trade from Denver's perspective. 2 promising young players and 2 expirings. But The Sixers get the best player in the trade.

Then next year you swap Brand's expiring for a legit big ticket center and then resign Carmellow using Bird rights (who knows w/ new CBA):

Jrue(20)
Iguodala(26)
Carmello(26)
Speights(23)
16M Center (expiring Brand trade)

Bench: Lou, Meeks, Hawes? (Nocioni this year)

I'd say you're going to have to send pick(s) to Denver as well, but yeah, I'd do it. I was more reacting to this article than any comments made here, which was kind of silly in retrospect.

In that scenario, though, I think you'd have to have an extension in place before the trade is made. If Melo walks after this season, you've given up WAYYY too much for a rental, and you haven't even helped your cap situation by moving him, all you've done, long-term, is lose Turner and whatever picks you sent to Denver.

Sure, you have to have an extension in place. But I hope you can eventually swap Brands big contract for a big contract center, but who knows with the new CBA.

I don't see why you give picks to Denver. They are getting this years #2 overall pick and a 22 year old former lottery pick and 10M in expiring deals. That is better value than the Sixers got for AI (by a HUGE margin.)

Because he's a 22 year old former lottery pick (and near the end of the lottery), so him being a lottery pick is irrelevant. What's relevant is his 3 years or production in the NBA, and it's not ideal.

They get turner, a guy due an extension at the end of the year IF he earns one, so they have to decide relatively quickly and two expiring contracts.

Would you trade Iguodala for the package you suggested the nuggets should trade anthony for.

Rightly or wrongly, the perception around the league will be that Carmelo Anthony is worth a lot more in trade than he probably is

This is a different situation than the Iverson trade. Melo's only 26 and he isn't exactly forcing his way out of Denver. If they don't get a big name, proven NBA player in return, they're going to be getting young players + expiring contracts + picks.

Carmello is forcing a trade.

Eh, not the way Iverson did. And at the time, it was pretty much believed Iverson didn't have a whole lot left in the tank. Also, I'm pretty sure Denver's owner hasn't gone on national TV and said, "We're going to trade Melo."

Would I have traded Iguodala for the #2 pick in the draft and exprings.... ABSOLUTELY!

Then I question your sanity

Iguodala has much less value than the #2 pick in the draft. Its just a fact.

Its not a simple talent thing. Its about salary as well. If you believe a 32 pick will be a star, you will have a star at MLE type money, versus Iguodala at 23-16M. That is a huge difference in building a team.

32 should read #2...

Wow, lots of typos, also Iguodala at 13M-16M versus what the #2 pick makes.

Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner and cap room

Jrue Holiday and Andre Iguodala

which pairing would you prefer for the next 5 years?

I'm not sure- since neither is an option. Sorry, can you clarify? Had they traded away Iguodala then they still would have the burden of 3 more years of Brand's deal effecting the cap.

I would not have traded away Iguodala for nothing. I would have traded him for a top 5 pick and expiring contracts. IMO Holiday/Turner/Cousins and a ton of future cap space would have been a nice start to a franchise rebuild.

I was making up a hypothetical about trading iguodala for #2 and expirings (cause that's basically what you were offering the Nuggets for Carmelo).

So in the hypothetical, some team offered the #2 pick, thad young, kapono and green for andre iguodala going into the draft - you do that trade?

Thats what I meant. Would you have made the exact same trade for iguodala that you offered for ANthony, if some other team had the #2 pick?

Continue this thread at the bottom. My eyes are hurting.

Yes. I would have traded Iguodala for #5 and expirings, so I definitelyy traded Iguodala for the equivalent of Thad, Turner and exprings. Even more-so if I was looking for a rebuild. Because you also bottom out this year and get a much high lottery pick next summer.

Had the Sixers had the #4, and they had the chance to acquire the #2 for Iguodala I would have darfted:

Favors + Johnson

or

Turner + Cousins

or

Favors + Cousins

and rebuilt from Jrue + that core. It would mean a few years of "growing pains" and high lottery picks, but a chance to be really good when Brand expires.

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raro reply to GoSixers on Aug 27 at 10:52
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Why are you referencing statistics from 2004? I'm sorry but Carmelo is a top 5 player in this league and it has nothing to do with ppg.

Because I'm referencing their entire careers.

You want to compare more recent seasons, lets look at 2008/2009, when Iguodala wasn't playing for an idiot coach with an idiot system.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=WTmqN

Carmelo comes out even worse in that season

Was Carmelo much better than Iguodala this year overall, probably, but Iguodala also had a horrible coach sysetem and etc...

And you keep saying he's a superstar so i keep presenting you with lebron james numbers in comparison. There's a reason for that. You tell me he's a superstar cause ESPN says so, but the fact is, he isn't. He's a good player, he's a very good player, but he's not in the level of kobe or lebron, those are superstars

(Even in his worst year this year Iguodala rebounded, created, and 'stole' better than Anthony)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=DnB4T

I'm curios as to why you say he's a superstar, if it isn't points per game - is it because of his clutchiness, or his wife, or the fact that EPSN says he is?

Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Howard, Chris Paul, Derron Williams, Dirk

Which four of those guys do you move out to put Melo in the top 5 in the league? There are more that belong ahead of Melo as well.

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raro reply to Brian on Aug 27 at 11:50
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I don't remember referencing espn. Thanks for assuming I'm just another ignoramus fan who only regurgitates talking head bs. Constructive as always.

I may have misspoken when I said top 5. Brian's list below is legit. Can I say top 10? I think so. Check out his numbers from 2007-2008 and tell me that's not top 10 level production. His numbers have gotten worse since then, but there's no reason to believe he can't back to 07-08 production.

And statistics aside, I love his style, footwork in the post and midrange game. It's easy on the eyes.

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raro reply to raro on Aug 27 at 11:52
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Sorry, take the above as reply to GoSixers. Also, switch out below with above.

I've presented various numbers that indicate he isn't a super star, or that over more than one particular season he isn't that much better overall than Iguodala.

If you have a personal preference for one over the other, that's great, but your assertion that he's so much better than Iguodala overall is just false.

Swapping Anthony for Iguodala would not make the sixers appreciably better towards contention

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raro reply to GoSixers on Aug 27 at 12:24
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Again, you're putting words in my mouth. What is a superstar? I there are maybe three of those in the league right now. Or four. I'm saying Carmelo is a very good player. I'm not putting him in the same category as Lebron or Kobe.

Also, who said anything about Carmelo being better than Iguodala? I actually think they would complement each other really well.

I don't understand this dislike for Carmelo's game.

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Dutch reply to GoSixers on Aug 27 at 13:55
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I think TK76 summed it up pretty nicely above...

"You can't underestimate the impact of a guy who can score 26-28 pts/game reasonably efficiently (46% and 7.4 FTM/gm.) That puts a ton of pressure on a defense and takes a ton of pressure off of the rest of your offense. Similar to how Iverson was an effective star wyhen he was leading the league in scoring (and Carmello is less ball dominant despite his high usage rate.)

He's not getting killed on the other end. His opponent PER is 15, making his PER differential +10, which is one of the best in the game."

Iggy and Carmelo have different strengths. Iggy's main strength (i.e. defense) relegates him to "important complementary player" status. Carmelo's main strength (i.e. versatile scoring) opens up a conversation about "superstar" status. No, not Kobe/Wade/Lebron level superstardom, but definitely second tier (i.e. next 8-10 guys). No offense to Iggy, who's a good player with a unique skillset, but Carmelo is a gamechanger in a way Iggy simply can't aspire to.

Do you ever watch a live game or do you wait for the next day and check the box score? This game is more than just numbers. Melo is an elite talent in this league. How many games have you seen Melo just dominate the game? He may not be totally rounded like Kobe or Lebron but not many can do what he can.
Hypothetical, if you were the Nuggets would you trade Melo for Iggy straight up? How many GM's do you think would make that trade? What team can you name that Iggy would start over Melo? How many teams can you name period that Melo isn't the 1A go-to scorer? Answer the same questions for Iggy?
Number don't tell you anything about effort, killer instinct or winning attitude. Melo shows these skills every night. Can you say that about Iggy?

What has Durant, Paul and Williams done that Melo hasn't? What has Dirk done lately?

Nice response.

Why'd we bother to hold Nocioni out of the Worlds? It's not a pressing question (who cares), but it's certainly a question.

Good question. I say let him play and hope you can recoup some of his contract with an insurance buyout.

Melo is definetly a Superstar he just hasn't been on the big stage. He won't be the only overpaid player in the NBA but few players can get you 30 and 10 on a given night. I love Iguodala more than anyone. I've come to blows defending Iggy, but I would package him in a heartbeat for Melo. And please don't give me that "effective" crap either compairing Melo to Iggy. It's not even a close. Go get Melo by all means.

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speekeasy reply to KellyDad on Aug 27 at 4:04
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I'd probably go with Melo too but if you swap Iggy for him then we don't get that much better. We still need more either way. Melo's gonna be over-paid but you need a primary scorer. (Hopefully that'll be Turner)

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speekeasy reply to Brian on Aug 27 at 4:02
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couldnt agree more. let him play for the Argentines and hopefully the injury gets worse. I'd rather see Thad and ET getting his time.

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speekeasy on Aug 27 at 4:09
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not sure if you've seen this yet:
ESPN team rankins and (cough) analysis
19. Philadelphia 76ers
The More Things Change: League lifer Rod Thorn, who worked lots of magic in New Jersey, moves two hours south to become the president of the Sixers, rejoining his old Nets partner, Ed Stefanski. Doug Collins, a former Sixers star, is the new coach, replacing Eddie Jordan and his Princeton offense. Center Samuel Dalembert was shipped to Sacramento for Andres Nocioni and Spencer Hawes, a trade that sacrifices athleticism for grit. No. 2 pick Evan Turner is hyped but was underwhelming in summer league.

The More They Stay the Same: The Sixers' biggest problem is that highly paid power forward Elton Brand is a slow, halfcourt player who doesn't fit with the Philly speed demons (Andre Iguodala, Lou Williams, Thaddeus Young), who are better suited for playing up-tempo basketball. You have to wonder if the Sixers are going in an even slower direction with the hiring of Collins, who has a history of playing deliberate, plodding basketball. If that's the case, how will Iguodala, Williams et al. fit into Collins' scheme? In other words, there was confusion last season and there will be confusion this season.

... oh and one of my boys saw Turner out in Maynunk a few nights ago. ET was stadning near our friend that used to be on Saint Joe's. Told me ET was 6'5'' at most (by comparing him to the St. Joe's walk-on who's 6'4''). I remember hearing 6'7'' but 6'5'' and a 1/2 is probably more reasonable.

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Tray reply to speekeasy on Aug 27 at 10:12
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You know, official measurements have been made of these guys. Turner was measured at the combine a few months ago. Whatever they say he is is what he is.

The exact same height in socks as Iguodala and Young when they were drafted (Young may have grown some since then.)

Good thing these players get officially measured at NBA sanctioned events so we don't have to go by peoples buddies who see them walking on the street.

Maybe the NBA should hire this guy's friend. He guessed 6'5.5", while his actual measurement is 6' 5.75" (6' 7" with shoes.)

Never quite understood why the NBA goes by a players height in shoes, but it is what is is- so he is 6'7" by NBA standards :)

The standard argument for measuring in shoes is that you play the game in shoes :)

Does the NFL list player heights while wearing helmets? :)

If the NBA drafting process was run as well as the NFL one, you'd have a lot less busts probably

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T McL reply to GoSixers on Aug 27 at 22:30
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The only reason the NFL draft has less busts is that the kids have to play 3 years. Also, I think that because there are 22 positions in football, there are more clear cut shoe in players than there are for the 5 in basketball.

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Charlie Ace reply to tk76 on Aug 30 at 1:39
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Nice. That's the best response to that question I've heard yet. Some people think it's crazy that players are measured barefoot. ("They wear shoes when they play.")

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speekeasy reply to GoSixers on Aug 27 at 16:36
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good point

I'm pretty sure I'm 6'1" in Cole Aldrich's shoes.

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speekeasy reply to Brian on Aug 27 at 16:45
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damn those are some george costanza timberlands

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speekeasy reply to Derek Bodner on Aug 27 at 16:40
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you really think Iverson was a legit 6 feet? or that Kevin Durant's only 6'9''? those are NBA heights. i'm skeptical

Durant has grown since then, I believe. I'm not sure what the combine was like when Iverson was drafted.

I don't care what's up on NBA.com. They publish the results from the combine publicly. That's what I go by.

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deepsixersuede on Aug 27 at 7:44
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I hope no move is made and if the young guys get us in playoff contention ride it out and stick to the "when Elton!s contract is off the books" plan. I hope our young guys can pull it off [playoffs].

I'm a little nervous about Rod right now after he just gave Travis Outlaw $35 million. Outlaw was out with any injury for quite a while, but between his time with portland and the clippers last year he had a negative wins produced per 48. The previous year when he played a full season he was at .056 in the same category, which out of the nine guys who played more than 1000 minutes for Portland two years ago, was good for 9th. Yikes!

I don't believe Thorn really had any say once the Russian took over and his primary motivation for leaving NJ was because of the meddling of the Russian and his cronies

That's an interesting question, how much did Thorn have to do w/ the signings the Nets made immediately prior to his departure? I like the Morrow deal, don't like Outlaw, and they made some ridiculous signing too, didn't they?

Nice to place some faces with names on the Facebook page. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to look through the list of all the people who "like" a group. And of course, there are real names instead of the pseudonyms that many of us use ...

Response to " hypothetical about trading iguodala for #2 and expirings":

Yes. I would have traded Iguodala for #5 and expirings, so I definitelyy traded Iguodala for the equivalent of Thad, Turner and exprings. Even more-so if I was looking for a rebuild. Because you also bottom out this year and get a much high lottery pick next summer.

Had the Sixers had the #4, and they had the chance to acquire the #2 for Iguodala I would have darfted:

Favors + Johnson

or

Turner + Cousins

or

Favors + Cousins

and rebuilt from Jrue + that core. It would mean a few years of "growing pains" and high lottery picks, but a chance to be really good when Brand expires.

I didn't say the #4 pick was involved, just the #2 pick, put the sixers in the playoffs with some sort of first round loss so their pick doesn't have that much value (you know, like the nuggets). Again, i'm trying to compare apples to apples in this hypothetical, so the sixers standard lottery position (6) is not extant in the discussion, put them around where the nuggets picked just for the hypothetical, like I said

Jrue Turner cap room

or

Jrue Iguodala Young

I can only comment on what I would do for the "actual Sixers", not a hypothetical Sixer squad that made the playoffs last year. And for the real Sixers, I would have Traded Iguodala for any pick in the top 6. I Changed the Sixers down to #4 since they already had the #2 pick.

As for the Nuggets- if they have to trade Melo now or lose him for nothing...

This years #2, Thad and expirings would be a great haul for a rebuilding team IMO. In fact Lawson/Turner/Young could become a solid future starting backcourt. Nene is not yet 28. Trade away Billups and Smith for young players/picks and do a full rebuild.

Of course, Melo is only 26, so if they can keep him they should. But it sounds like they are losing him in a year either way.

Actually the deal I quoted was Turner + Young for Melo.

So if you are saying Iguodala is our Melo than the question is:

Jrue/Turner/Thad for 10M

or

Jrue/Iguodala for 16-19M + whatever you have to pay a 3rd wing (since Turner and Thad are gone.)

I'd take option 1 for my rebuild.

You're still stuck with the untraceable Elton Brand and most likely a new CBA that lowers the salary cap & or eliminates the MLE and an ownership that is loathe to exceed the luxury tax.

And with Thad due an extension at the end of next season, if given, how much money you think the sixers have the cap percentage / value comes down?

Yeah, Brand is still an anchor however you slice it.

But there is something to be said for "rebuilding the right way." Meaning you go into next year without Iguodala and Sam, but with multiple high picks and the likelihood of stockpiling some more top picks while waiting for Brand to leave.

That does not make me anti-Iguodala. he is only 26 and a decent value and the best player in the team. Just not sure the team is going anywhere the next few years.

Some 2009/10 Anthony/Iguodala numbers to chew on, from Synergy-

1. Points per possession, on isolation situations. Melo- .92 AI9- .78

2. Points per possession, P and R ball handler. Melo- .73
AI9- .79

3. Points per possession, post up. Melo- .96 (which is excellent) AI9- .84

4. Points per possession, spot up. Melo- 1.01 AI9- 1

5. Points per possession, off screen. Melo- .96 AI9- .64

6. Points per possession, cutting. Melo- 1.6, AI9- 1.41 (both very high numbers)

7. PPP, offensive board. Melo- 1.12 AI9- 1.21

8. PPP, transtion. Melo- 1.28, AI9- 1.09

Three point numbers are pretty close, with maybe a slight edge to Melo. Melo seems to win most of these categories. Take them as you may.

There's no question Melo's a better scorer, and he's able to keep his efficiency decent even with an absurd usage %. Iguodala's a much, much better distributer, better defender, more versatile overall player, IMO.

Still, you can't ignore the scoring, though I'd make the argument that having a guy with a 30%+ usage rate is hard to win with.

If the question is would the Sixers be better with Melo than they are with Iguodala, the answer is maybe. It's not clear either way. When you factor in their salaries, Iguodala's a better value. If you're talking about playoff success, the difference between Melo and Iguodala doesn't move the needle enough to justify the added salary as far as I'm concerned.

The only way flipping Iguodala for Melo gets this team closer to contending is if the presence of Melo attracts other big name players like Paul to force a trade here.

Otherwise, Melo and Iguodala are both great pieces to have. Neither alone will make you a contender (or even close.)

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Rich reply to Brian on Aug 27 at 16:46
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Yeah, Melo's been better than Iguodala in the playoffs simply because he's getting his numbers, but he hasn't been great there. That Detroit series really kills Andre's numbers there.

I think you can be a much, much better offensive team with Melo's attributes. Denver was head and shoulders above the Sixers' offense last year. He does have other guys around him who are better offensive players than the Sixers, but Denver doesn't really need Melo to do the other stuff the Sixers require of Iguodala. For that reason, Melo's contributions to an excellent offense should not be overlooked. Melo's not a terrible defender either. The way he scores, he's more than passable. Not Iggy's level, but not bad there. It's a good debate.

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speekeasy reply to Rich on Aug 27 at 16:50
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kinda shocked by the PPP offensive rebound numbers

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Rich reply to speekeasy on Aug 27 at 16:58
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Melo has a much larger sample size there. He's (51/102) a better offensive rebounder, but Iguodala (19/30) makes a better percentage. Mirrors the rest of their stats for their careers kind of.

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speekeasy reply to Rich on Aug 27 at 17:25
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makes sense

I am a diehard Sixers fan and that being said I don't get caught up in pre season predictions because if that was the case I probably wouldn't wan't to go to all these games and pay my hard earned money to see 12 wins at home like last year as most of the pundits are predicting. I go back to the Eagles in Andy Reid's second year when the pundit's predicted a 4 win season and they went 11-5. My point is last year the OKC team went from 23-59 to a 50 win season with virtually the same team which got better. Is it possible that the Sixers can improve ? So I go into the season as a fan optomistic and hope for the best. Actually I am more optomistic this year then the past several years.


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