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The Prototype

Forgot one thing, he needs to be a deadly free throw shooter. A guy who can put a game away from the line late. That usually goes hand-in-hand with a deadly outside shooter, but not all the time.

I'm gonna go with Eric Gordon. I like the way he shoots the jumper, he's got a good amount of quickness and strength, and he has some defensive ability on the perimeter. I guess he needs to work on his handle a little bit. But I'll be really interested to see how he does playing with Blake Griffin this season.

Great choice. Turner has a beautiful jumper and unreal range. Leaving age aside, I think the 2 Rays from UConn might be better because of how well they use screens. Hamilton has tremendous stamina and timing. I know he's slowing down, but the Hamilton of 2005 would be just about right. Ray Allen is just such a great shooter, it almost trumps everything else. I'd say he's not a complete zero on defense, and he drives to the basket way better than he's given credit for. People only talk about his outside shooting.

I can't think of anybody from the top of the head, but I have always thought Turner could fit a role similar to Paul Pierce, (less strength, but a better playmaker) and a guy like Pierce could fit well with Jrue/Iguodala. Plus, Pierce only shot 34.5 % from 3 coming out of Kansas, so maybe there is hope for ET to become the sort of mold.

O.J Mayo?

Anyone that fits these requirements is a pretty damn good player lol.

Too bad he's only 6'2", but Ian Miller's shot jumped out at me when I was checking out the John Wall stuff on YouTube.


Court_visioN on Sep 30 at 3:00

Jodie Meeks =D

In all seriousness, Eric Gordon jumps out at me the most. Steph Curry could also fit the bill, especially since Jrue can slide over to guard the 2.

Other names I'd throw out there is JJ Redick, Kevin Martin, and Rudy Fernandez.

And I'm down for that fantasy bball league.

Sent your invite to the address you used to leave the comment.

smh1980 on Sep 30 at 3:24

My wish list:

1. Kevin Durant (impossible but I dare to dream)
2. Wes Johnson (don't know how he'll pan out but he's a much better fit for this team than Turner)
3. Kevin Martin (great stroke and isn't ball dominant)


What sort of usage rate qualifies as ball dominant if Martin isn't?

I'm not sure usage rate is necessarily a direct measure ball dominant, which I consider to be holding onto the ball a majority of the time as well, not just how often he finishes plays. I also don't think past usage% proves he a player can't be successful off the ball as well, just that in the past he's been used a lot (which could be because of skillset, or because of the situation and he's asked to be).

Ray Allen is a great example. In Milwaukee his USG was in the low 20's, then he went to Seattle and it was near 30, then he went to Boston and it was 20 again. His game didn't change, how he was used did. He was successful at both.

After looking at it a bit more I do agree with you that it's probably not a good direct measure (ray allen was one of my reasons for adjusting my thinking on it, as was Steve Nash). Not really sure how you look at it easily. Is there a way to look up assisted baskets versus unassisted baskets (off the top of my head question)?

Since we're going with hypotheticals I'll say a young Ray Allen or Andrew Toney.

Scratch Andrew Toney, insert Joe Johnson.

No, rethink that!

deepsixersuede on Sep 30 at 7:43

I will go with Thad's old teammate, M.Morrow. I think he is the best deep shooter in the league and has size also. He doesn't drive well but to me that is down on my list of necessary requirements of a guy between Jrue and Iggy. W.Johnson would be my backup plan.

Do we know Turner can't shoot from deep? He just chose not to do it at Ohio St. because he was surrounded by shooters.

Ray Allen IS that player. So for our purposes, we're looking for the next Ray Allen. Maybe Anthony Morrow? You are right, Brian- the Ray Allen-types are a dying breed in the NBA today.

The thing is, you don't trade (or, not select) an Evan Turner talent for a Morrow talent because of fit. The team isn't close enough for that.

I agree. The real talent in that trade would be Turner for Favors. I'm in the camp that Turner will be a better overall player than Favors- however, if the other side of that trade is Speights for Morrow- well I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. Put the two together and I think it's a wash in terms of talent- but the fit might be better for us with Favors/Morrow over Turner/Speights. I understand we're not at a make moves for fit place right now- but long term fit is also something to think about.

You'd create a bigger hole in an already weak front court by adding another player who most likely plays behind Evan Turner?

deepsixersuede on Sep 30 at 8:13

Actually, the guy in this last draft who fits your requirement list the best may be X.Henry, though Derek raised the point predraft that he may have trouble guarding s.g.'s. Offensively he is very versatile.

Thinking about it a little bit more- I like Morrow. Anyone like going to NJ with a Turner/Speights for Morrow/Favors trade? NJ was high on Turner...

I'm not sure I'd do that trade...but I'd think long and hard about it.

I'm at the same place I was before the draft. I'm not worried about finding a piece to fit between Jrue and Iguodala, my focus is still on finding a player capable of being the focal point of an offense. As such, I'm grading Turner on whether I think he can become that, not on whether he's an ideal fit on the current roster. For some reason, since the end of last season to now, our focus has shifted more to his current fit. As we get closer to the season, the distant future becomes less relevant, and the immediate future more of a concern.

I still believe it's easier to build around an Evan Turner offensively than it is to build around either Jrue Holiday or Andre Iguodala, and I'm not going to scour the earth to find an Anthony Morrow to build around a flawed player in the half-court like Andre Iguodala to squeak out 41 wins and a first round playoff exit.

I also believe Jrue is a far more versatile (but not dominant in any single way) offensive player who's built to play around Evan Turner, and the two will make a great pairing.

The question, to me, is based around whether Andre Iguodala can become a respectable catch and shoot player, and not making Turner become a guy you run off screens and setup in the corner.

You can see both at one time though. I don't think bringing him off the bench will give you an answer of whether he can carry the team offensively. If he gets the minutes we all want, then a lot of them will be spent with Jrue and AI9.

I didn't say you couldn't see both, nor that I want him to come off the bench (or expect him to, I said yesterday I'd be surprised if he wasn't the opening day starter). I just mean my main concern isn't making him an off the ball player to fit next to jrue and iguodala but to see if he can be the centerpiece of an offense.

Oh alright, I misread it. So he is simply the top priority to you. So if he can't play off the ball or isn't showing much progress there, would you let him run the point the whole game? Basically let him run the Ohio State offense.

Run the point? No. Be a primary initiator in the half court offense in the Brandon Roy (and Paul Pierce, earlier in his career) role? Yeah, I think he can be that type of player.

I agree in that I'd rather have someone like Turner giving me 20+ pts leading the offense than have a pure shooter like Morrow who is more of a 15ppg role player. I want the impact player and then will shuffle the other pieces.

Turner and Jrue are (hopefully) the long term future. It remains to be seen whether Iguodala will fit in long term, or whether his large salary slot is better utilized on a frontcourt asset. But this question won't be answered this season.

I like Morrow, but he's a bit too one-dimensional for me. The two guys I had in mind were Steph Curry and Eric Gordon, with Curry being the ideal.

Mayo's a good example. Ray Allen, in his prime, obviously. Number four on my list might be Redick.

For the trade above, I don't think you trade for Morrow expecting him to be a starter. That's a tough deal to handicap, though.

ryano reply to Brian on Sep 30 at 10:24

Why couldn't Morrow be a starter? He's got the size, the stroke, he's efficient in his scoring. He's a low turnover guy. Doesn't need the ball in his hands a lot. He's only 24. He's athletic. I don't know- a Morrow, Lou, and Iguodala rotation at the 2-spot brings ALOT of versatility to the back court.

Downside to the trade- neither he nor Favors is a solution to our number 1 scoring option IMO.


They could make up for Morrow on the defensive end. I can see it. Agree with you that they wouldn't have a number one scorer, though.

ryano reply to Brian on Sep 30 at 10:39

ESPN has Terrance Williams as the starter for NJ this year at SG. Think NJ would do a Lou for Morrow trade? I don't think the salaries work- but maybe they throw in Humphries or something.

Rich reply to ryano on Sep 30 at 10:47


It's still a battle between the two players for the starting spot. I think that Morrow complements Williams' skill set better than Lou does too.

I don't think New Jersey would trade MOrrow for Williams as they just signed him, both are bench players, but Morrow maybe first their roster better

Jesse reply to Brian on Sep 30 at 11:00

Curry is so ideal that you wrote "I have this idea in my mind of the perfect player to fit between Iguodala and Curry" instead of "between Iguodala and Holiday."

Heh. Yeah, he's that perfect.

I second all of the Ray Allen comments. In his prime he was the perfect SG. Perfect shot, good size, good handle, good enough defender, scorers mentality, efficient.

He is the only player in NBA history from age 24-31 to average 23 ppg and hit at least two 3's per game.

From age 24-31 he cumulative stat line was:
23.3/4.7 shooting 45%/40%/90% with ts% and eFG% in the 55% range.

He is the only "shooter" to ever put up those kind of consistent all-around numbers throughout his prime. Reggie Miller came close, and gets bonus points for his clutchness and intensity... but Allen gets the nod IMO.

BTW, here is a comparison of Reggie and Ray ray through age 31. Both historic numbers- with Reggie more efficient with his added lay-ups off of cuts and Ray a bit higher in assists and scoring (taking more 3's and laying more minutes/game.) Also Reggie has a ton more DWind, but I'm not sure why :)

If I was going with a younger player I would take Brandon Roy over Gordon or Curry. He's definitely the perfect compliment to Jrue and Dre.

Not for me. Doesn't shoot well enough, too ball dominant, injury prone.

JJ Redick

Ryan F reply to Ryan F on Sep 30 at 12:21

Moderate usage player, great shooting ability, can handle the ball and drive, and plays good defense.

And an exact 15.0 (Average) per :)

Interesting choice.

Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Sep 30 at 12:32

..and he's tough.

Problem with Redick is that he went to Duke and I'm predisposed to think less of Duke players in the NBA until proven otherwise. He had a very nice season last year, and the Magic finally gave him minutes, but I want to see it carry over into this year.

He's got a lot in common with Nocioni, didn't he get a DWI also?

I'm actually a big fan of Redick. Eventually, Orlando is going to get bit in the ass for matching all these offer sheets for their restricted free agents. I think Redick steps in as the starter at SG down there when Carter's done, though.

I like gordon because he is a pure shooter and has decent size. He can also flat out score. If gordon was on our team, I would let jrue control theres ball and let gordon and iggy get theirs

Eric Gordon and O.J. Mayo are my picks to put between Holiday and Igoudala. Both have a chance to become a focal point on offense without being untouchable (read Durant aka the perfect fit) in a trade.

Brian, Derek... Would you trade Turner for Gordon or Mayo straight up?

Probably not right now. I agree that Turner has a chance to be the focal point of an offense, don't think either of those guys really fits that role.

I would, however, trade Turner straight up for Curry today.

You'd trade holiday straight up for curry

I bet you'd consider (salary aside) iguodala straight up for curry :)

Don't think I'd trade Jrue for him. Jrue's defense is going to set him apart from the rest of the guards who came out last year, he's a rarity.

I'd trade anyone but Jrue for Curry as well, but i think he's untouchable too at the moment...

Curry, Turner, Iguodala would be pretty slick.

Saying Nocioni can shoot is just a complete misnomer. He's been above average from three, essentially pitiful from everywhere else on the floor. Especially long twos, which make up about 20% of his shots (51/164 from 16-23 feet over the past two seasons, 30.9%).

Last year, he shot 49.6% on shots at the rim. Which is just beyond pitiful.

Toughness comes at a steep price, I guess. 20 minutes a game, what a joke.

Here's a trade I'd make.

Sixers send Turner, Hawes and Kapono to GSW.
GSW sends Curry and Biedrins to Philly

GSW gets out from under the Biedrins contract, expiring deals and Turner.

Our starting five:



Fracks the sixers a bit more long term and I don't Comcast would take on the contract just to get Curry but I like it.

And in terms of talent, Biedrins at least is no worse than Hawes right?

When he's healthy, Biedrins is very effective. Terrible free throw shooter, though.

I don't think I make any trade (that isn't something ridiculously impossible) before seeing Turner play at least a season in the league.

I consider Curry a legit #1 with a really solid peripheral game as well, and a nearly perfect compliment to Jrue. That's worth Turner, in my book.

Again, how is he the perfect complement fro Jrue? Do you envision Jrue spending his career guarding SG's? Wouldn't that be an utter waste of his talent? or do you think Curry can guard SG's?

Jrue could be a great pure PG on both ends of the floor. he should be playing next to a great shooter who can defend SG's, not a guy smaller than him. It would be like pairing Gary Payton or Billups with AI.

It would be like pairing Gary Payton up with a guy Billups' height who was deadly from the outside, could handle the ball, makes plays for teammates, grabs a ton of rebounds for his position and plays the passing lanes.

And like I said before, I'd have Curry guarding the worst perimeter player. If you're playing Miami, Curry guards Chalmers and Jrue guards Wade. If you're playing OKC, Curry guards Thabo and Jrue guards Westbrook. If you're playing Boston, Jrue guards Rondo, Curry guards Allen.

There would be some mismatches, obviously, but having two perimeter defenders like Holiday and Iguodala allows you to sacrifice some D for O in the third perimeter spot. Especially if you don't have a complete defensive zero at center, like Hawes.

Really solid peripheral game? I agree with tk. His defense is lousy. It was lousy at Davidson.

He is a good passer, grabs loose ball rebounds and plays the passing game. So in those ways he has good peripherals.

But his physical limitations create an Ai situation. He would be great next to Iguodala, but I'm not ready to make Jrue into a modern day Eric Snow :)

Brians trade is kind of impossible in that I don't think either side would do it :)

Yeah, I doubt it as well.

I kind of wonder if guys like Thorn or Stefanski sit around and spitball this kind of stuff though? Like, "This might make our team better, let's give Golden State a call."

I thin it's possibly that quality GMs with good ownership work that way yes

I'd do the trade in a nanosecond, but i don't think GSW will be even remotely interested. Curry would solve the focal point on offense issue, Biedrins would solve the rebounding issue... I don't see how this makes sense for GSW though

I think your love for Curry has blinded you :)

Curry is a lousy defender. Not average, not passable- but lousy. Like Lou Williams, he can only cover PG's... and not well.

So you are forcing Jrue to only cover SG's (and Iguodala to only cover SF's.) So you are losing Jrues greatest strength. Instead of starting a potentially elite defender of PG's you now have a poor defender at PG and Jrue as an undersized defender at SG.

Is that worth it to get a great offensive weapon in Curry?

How can one tell if a guy plays lousy defense when playing for Don Nelson?

Curry cannot physically cover SG's. Even if he was average at covering PG's, you still have the same problem I mentioned above.

I don't see why Jrue needs to guard the opposing SG if he is paired with a smaller player at SG. In todays NBA the PGs are usually the better players of the two guards on the majority of the teams anyway....

His defensive numbers aren't that bad, and I don't think you'd exclusively use him on opposing PGs. You'd use him on the worst perimeter player on the opposing team every night, with Iguodala and Jrue taking the two best.

Defensively, I'd take Curry and Biedrins over Turner and Hawes without thinking twice.

Out of curiosity, who would Jrue and who would Curry be guarding on the current 10 top NBA teams? Do you really envision Curry covering the "worst backcourt player" if that guy has 4" and 40 pounds on Curry? I guess it depends on how passive that guy is.

Curry guards:

LAL - Fisher
BOS - Allen
MIA - Chalmers
ATL - Bibby
ORL - Nelson
OKC - Thabo
CHI - Who is their starting 2, Korver? Korver
UTA - Matthews
POR - Tough call, probably Miller.
SAS - Parker, if Manu starts.

In most of these cases, though, the answer is the same if Turner is your SG.

Fisher- Curry










I'm ambivalent about most of these match-up. It could work, but you are taking a current strength and making it a relative weakness.

Tom Moore on Sep 30 at 15:25

A bunch of blogs from camp:


Only one workout today - 5 to 8 p.m. at St. Joe's.

Turner and the situation he is getting into in his rookie season reminds me more and more to James Harden from last year. I expect very similar numbers from Turner this year (both in playing time and actual stats). I even think they both have very similar upside. Would anyone trade Turner for Harden or do all of you think Turner will be better?

Harden strikes me as kind of a slug, not sure why. I'd rather stick with Turner at this point.

Tom Moore on Sep 30 at 18:55

They're still practicing. We should be allowed in to watch in another 40 minutes or so.

Lou Williams on Doug Collins: "He's really a stickler on guys being in the right spot, paying attention to the small things. I think that'll help us out in the long run."

Rich definitely has the best team name in the league so far, "City Line Chili's"

Joe reply to Brian on Sep 30 at 20:40

I'm interested in the league if there are openings...

Great, I sent your invite to the e-mail address I have for you.

Tom Moore on Sep 30 at 20:41

Kapono, Jrue Holiday and rookie Craig Brackins (four made 3-pointers) were among those who played well in the evening scrimmage. Kapono continued to make shots and passed the ball well.

Asked for the biggest surprise in camp thus far, Collins said, “Kapono. He’s been good, real good.”

“He’s probably shocked because he thought I was so bad as a basketball player,” said a smiling Kapono. “Obviously, he wasn’t expecting much. I guess I’ll take that as a compliment. Thank you, coach Collins.”

Iguodala participated in a full-court session for the first time in camp. Nocioni and Battie again sat out during the contact portion.

Well, I hope Kapono is right. And that Collins doesn't play him.

I hope he plays him and that he plays well, it increases his minimal trade deadline value as an expiring contract if he can play for a team as well :)

Maybe someone can be conned into thinking he's the 'steve kerr' they need to win an nba title

Tom, your reports are greatly appreciated.

I'm wondering if you saw much of the camp and preseason last year and whether Kapono looks better now. My general impression was that he performed well offensively in last season's camp/preseason, but then didn't make shots once the regular season started and then fell out of the rotation.

Tom Moore reply to izimbra on Sep 30 at 22:17

Kapono was actually shooting just under 40 percent from 3-point land when Jordan benched him two months into the season. He's been good at finding open spots in the offense and camp, and the other team hasn't been good at being aware of where he is on the floor.

Tom Moore on Sep 30 at 21:06

Kapono: "I’m living in a sore world. He stresses how to cut hard, how to pass, how to run the court. You have to be in shape."

"I think his structure is more catered to players’ strengths, versus just sticking to a system even if players don’t fit into it."

Collons called Brackins "very, very skilled," but said he has to get stronger.

How did Brackins look on the defensive end?

tk76 reply to Brian on Sep 30 at 21:15


Tom Moore reply to tk76 on Sep 30 at 22:14

He doesn't stand out on "D." But he knocked down two 3-pointers from the right elbow extended with a smooth, confident shooting stroke. After the scrimmage, he hit five straight 3s from the right baseline and barely touched the net on any of them.

johnrosz reply to Tom Moore on Sep 30 at 22:17

Is Turner still look like he's struggling out there? Any improvement?

johnrosz on Sep 30 at 21:52

I love how almost to a man the players have taken a somewhat indirect shot at Jordan in one way or another since the start of camp. Can't say it isn't well deserved...

Just watched the Vids at: http://www.nba.com/sixers/video/2010/09/30/100930collinsmov-1428233/index.html

Brackins is a well spoken kid and seems to have his head on straight. Given he was in a bad situation at ISU, I think he has a chance to surprise people- especially if he can get his strength up.

Interesting that he is the same age as Speights (23), so older than Hawes/Turner/Young(22) and Holiday(20.) I could see him getting some minutes since Hawes/Speights/Brand are unlikely to give you 82 games.

I had the same thought, easy to see why Thorn liked him.

Brackins has very narrow shoulders. I don't think he'll ever be PF big in the upper body.

Cooney with another obligatory "Jrue's a stud" quote:

"On another note, it is really eye-opening how good Jrue Holiday appears to be. He plays at a pace that just keeps defenders confused, with a great combination of quickness and speed. When he drives to the hole, he is strong enough to finish in traffic and after contact and when he does pass, he usually makes the right decision. He is really, really good."


The kid is definetly the trendy pick for breakout player this year. I can't wait to see it (but I'm fine giving him a couple more years before I expect him to be a top level NBA PG.)

Steve v on Oct 1 at 12:44

Rudy Gay would be a nice fit between jrue and iguodala. Great range albeit inconsistent right now, great athlete, pure stroke, good ft shooter. Defense is not his strong suit but he hasvall the tools to succeed their. Is more of a sf than sg but could easily play 35 min a night there. I'm interested in the league as well if there's any spots.

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