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Pressing Questions: October 1

Maybe these segments should be renamed to "Depressing Questions"?

I love when perception swings. It happens a lot with young players and prospects. I went from an Udoh homer to an Udoh basher last spring, when really my evaluation of him didn't change. I thought he was better than the 20-25th pick when he was down there, but I think he's severely overrated as the 6th pick. Same prospect, same evaluation, different general perception.

I think the pendulum is swinging on Jrue a little bit, to the overrated camp. I don't think he's a top 5 PG this year, and may not be ever in his career. I still don't see the offensive diversity in his game to be more than an 16-18 ppg scorer at peak, and think his experience is at a level where he's still going to be mistake prone. And it's hard to average 7-8+ assists in todays game at todays pace unless you have the offensive skill to attract a TON of attention and double teams unless you have a dynamic offensive player to play next to.

Last year, after the draft and summer league, if I told you Jrue would develop into a 16-18 ppg scorer, with 6-7 assists and great defensive potential, you would have thought I was crazy and a homer. Now if I say that, and say he may not be top-5 pg in the league quality, I'm a hater and can't see his talent. My opinion hasn't really changed, except for his improved shooting. What I felt about him last summer was reinforced by his play, but I haven't drastically changed my evaluation. But public perception has caught up and surpassed me, and I do believe right now he's a bit overhyped.

Definite starter, fringe-all-star potential. Not ready to call him a future start, yet. I need to see more.

The only hesitation I have about Jrue's game is the jumper. If last season wasn't a mirage and he can shoot the three at close to 40%, I think he will be a star. The rest of his game is instinctual, and I don't see him having any weaknesses once he's acclimated to the league.

Rob_STC reply to Brian on Oct 1 at 13:21

I agree with you on Jrue, he can be an all star player. They said in the draft he was a top 10 talent at 19 yrs old. One other thought I had. It seems like the Sixers jump shooting has improved now but they say Elton is shooting 10-15 footers. Is this because its practice ? I mean this was the reason they got him in the first place to be in the post going to the basket where he has done well in his career or will he become Chris Webber ? They need to have some threat down low and unless Elton is taking it to the basket or Speights is in the game they will need some low post game. Your thoughts ?

Everything about the front court worries me. Brand has seemed fine to me in the post unless he's (a) being guarded by a 7-footer or (b) doubled.

I think this team's best options for a post game are Iguodala, Jrue, Thad and maybe Turner. Which is backwards, like everything else on this roster.

No right hand at the rim, not drawing fouls, not great elevation in lane, not great touch (again, mostly right hand), very inconsistent shot off jumper.

I don't think he's a stud scoring prospect. Potentially good, but I just don't see more than 16-18 ppg at peak.

I think a lot of the things you list can change. Will they, who knows at this stage...

When asked about his game, Jrue said he worked on getting stronger and more explosive this summer. And a 19 year old with his frame could get a lot better in those areas over the next 3 years. This will help him finish in the lane. It will help him get past his man if he has a 1/2 a step on him. And it will help him have a legit shot at guarding guys like Wade and JJ- who physically dominated Jrue last year.

I'd be perfectly fine w/ 16-18 ppg, especially because I think he could easily be a double-digit assist guy if he's given the keys to the offense.

I'm also of the mind that finishing with your strong hand is a fairly easy adjustment to make when you already finish well w/ your weak hand.

He definitely needs to work on getting to the line more, that was lacking last season.

Yeah, I don't see double digit assists. In this decade you'er talking about Nash, Paul, Deron Williams, Andre Miller (once) and Jason Kidd (once) having achieved that. So realistically only 3 players to have done and been able to repeat it.

I also don't think it's that easy to improve his right hand. There are people who are not universally dominant. In terms of finishing, the right hands his weak hand. I'm not sure he ever gets as comfortable with that as he is left handed, and right now it's a hole in his game.

Have you ever seen that before? I right-handed shooter having better touch w/ his off hand around the rim to the point where lefty is a strength, righty a weakness? Reggie Evans comes to mind, sort of.

He ambidextrous. I'm guessing he was taught to shoot jumpers with his right hand.

A lot of "Lefties" are ambidextrous, and almost all of them are taught to do certain things with their R hands.

As a natural lefty I can say that I play hockey, bat, shoot the ball right handed. It was all more instinctual than being forced to do so, when I first started playing the games. I'm not really all that ambidextrous though.

I can see how he would have found finishing with his L to be a natural advantage- and it still is.

I agree with this general assessment. If anything I think the jury is still out and he could be anywhere from just a solid PG to a real great one. We still have to learn if he can develop true floor general skills and if he can become an efficient scorer (and draw fouls.)

There is a chance for him to break out and become a truly elite player- I think Jrue has the physical tools and raw talent to develop into a top scorer and top PG... But I agree that most likely he ends up as more of a 15/7.5 guy, and probably not in spectacular fashion. But that plus good defense is enough to make him a very good starter.

johnrosz reply to Derek Bodner on Oct 1 at 14:48

Can he be as good/better than a guy like Rondo? Not exactly what you'd call a dynamic offensive threat. I'm aware that Rondo has the freakish wingspan and the quickness advantage. I think Jrue has a higher bball IQ and is definitely stronger though

Rondo has a lot of intangibles and instincts that Jrue has yet to display. But Jrue is only 20, so we'll see.

Rob_STC on Oct 1 at 13:04

Brian I do agree I think Thorn will look for a shot blocker,rebounder,defender type like Dalembert. Not many of those guys out there so the fans will probably miss Sammy. You know it is like be careful what you wish for right ? They need that guy when they are up 7 points with 4 minutes left in the game to bring that type of defender in the game.

bebopdeluxe reply to Rob_STC on Oct 2 at 0:50

I am so glad that Sammy is gone. No more drama for the cameras after games. No more I-don't-work-on-my-game shit. Some people talk about him like he was Bill Russell. When Speights got regular minutes from DiLeo, Sammy sat on the bench for GAMES...but the team is going to collapse because he's gone. I recognize that Sammy being gone hurts our interior defense, but it's still addition-by-subtraction for me. Offense gets better. No more Sammy-being-Sammy. Message sent to the players that same old, same old doesn't work anymore.

Other than the 2011-12 money for Noc (not a small thing, I would admit), the positives FAR outweigh the negatives as far as Sammy being gone, IMO.

I think Collins was behind the Dalembert trade. My guess is he wanted to clear the locker room of any tension, which he evidently has done and done well. Some of the players (Brand? Iguodala?) thought Sam's act was getting old.

I don't think Thorn will find a decent rebounder on the waiver wire or among the free agents. Dampier is out there still, but I don't see him as a candidate. Would he trade Young for a DeJuan Blair type? San Antonio probably wouldn't do that deal, but there might be another guy at that level who's gettable, maybe Kenyon Martin.

Top 5 PG this year? 0% chance.

If the kid is top 15, that would be legitimate improvement.

Paul, Williams, Nash, Kidd, Rondo. He doesn't even have a chance to be better than any of those guys this year.

Billups, Miller, Nelson, Parker, Baron Davis, Westbrook, Calderon. You could throw in Derrick Rose, Jennings, and John Wall. He needs to still pass Darren Collison, Kyle Lowry, and Felton even and others.

Now, can he start chipping away? Sure. I don't see Jrue being better than Andre Miller this season, though, and Miller isn't top 5 and many wouldn't put him top 10.

AaronMcKie4MVP reply to Joe on Oct 1 at 14:47

i think jrus is easily in the second class. those top5, who i agrere with, are tough to crack. althoug kidd wont be there for long. the next echelon you list, id take jrue over all except billups, parker, westbrook, & derek rose - i say he is #10 as of now, based only on 1 season. i think he will end up being better than billups, parker (not suire how good rose/westbrook end up) so of this terrific list of point guards, including 4 or 5 hall of famers, i think he will end his career around 7. this will be evident by mid season.

i wathc the guy play and he does so little that is wqrong. never see bad shots or bad turnovers, always converts opportunities, hits shots, feels like a true winner.

johnny magee, you comin round' this year, boy? you get yours? boy?

Man, he'd have to be pretty damn good to be a Top-5 PG at any point in his career. The way the league is going, being a Top 10 guy will make you an All-Star because the league is going to be so PG dominant. Here's my hope for Jrue: On offense he becomes an efficient scorer and really high assist to turnover guy, but because we have another facilitator or two (Turner and AI9), his numbers don't blow you away. I am so excited to watch Jrue defend PGs though, I'm hoping he's a Top 2 or 3 PG defender in the league. I watch guys like Rondo and Rose go at each other, and they can't freaking stop each other. I think Jrue can become a net positive there.

Joe reply to Rich on Oct 1 at 15:15

And yet the top 2 teams have average PGs.

LAL and who?

The Heat

Chalmers I guess?

Joe reply to GoSixers on Oct 2 at 12:31

Yeah, the Heat.

I don't think Collins has said anything too surprising or out of the ordinary, new coach, trying to rebuild a team philosophy type thing, he's saying all the right things (which is the concerning part). When the pre-season games and regular season games start it's obvious that we'll get a better idea of what COllins really thinks of the roster.

As for Holiday, I'm trying not to get too 'excited' about what he could become as I think I hope I learned a lesson from getting too excited after Thaddeus Young's first year :)

As much as it pains me to see a team devoid of any frontcourt defensive presence... I can see the Dalambert dilema. We will learn this season to what extent Sam did or did not kill the offense.

On one hand, you'd think with all of their slashers (Andre/Lou/Thad/Turner) that having an athletic big like Sam to throw alley-oops to and get O-Board follows would be a great fit. But Sam also killed any offensive flow and was not good for spacing (especially given the teams lack of shooting wings.)

The best thing about losing Sam is it really forces Speights to sink or swim. Because he is the only player who has the physical tools to be a solid interior defender and rebounder. But their is serious doubt to whether he will ever tap into his talent on that end of the floor.

Speightsis just one of several players who could have a break out year. We certainly are all expecting Jrue to break out- but what about the more questionable guys like Turner, Thad, Speights, Hawes and Lou... Do you guys think any of them will break out this year?

bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Oct 2 at 0:59

Again - when DiLeo gave Speights regular minutes, Sammy got nailed to the bench for a LOT of games.

And here's the thing...Dalembert frustrated LB no end, because he was clueless on the floor. I think the chances of Sammy "getting it" with Collins were virtually non-existant (especially with his horrific off-court workout habits). We have seen Speights put Sammy on the bench - what's to say that, now that Speights has lost some weight and looks like he's in better shape that he wouldn't have done it again? And my guess is they thought that Hawes had more of a chance to translate a change of scenery and some Collins' coaching to improve his game than Sammy had.

We will learn this season to what extent Sam did or did not kill the offense.

I have a problem with this comment mostly because (obviously) basketball has two main components. There's offense and there's defense.

The question to me isn't how much Sam 'killed' the offense so much as did Sam's defense help make up for his (and the teams) offensive deficiencies or is Hawes such an improvement offensively that the defensive inadequacies will be masked.

To me it's not about offense or defense, it's about both, and I personally don't think Hawes is that great offensively that that will make up for the defensive loss of Dalembert.

Even if we look at the offensive end only, for the improvement to be that great, Hawes' passing and spacing (the latter of which I have serious doubts about), first needs to make up for the drastic difference in scoring efficiency between him and Dalembert.

Not only was Hawes a much, much less efficient scorer, but he used up more possessions taking shots. That's a deficit that I doubt his passing and "spacing" are going to overcome. This move has the very real potential of making this team worse on both ends of the floor, significantly worse on the defensive end.

John and Brian- I'm not bringing Hawes into the equation or evaluating the trade. I've already said I did not like the trade.

I'm more talking about the Sixers post Sam- which was going to come soon even if he was not traded. The defensive impact is clear. There has to be personnel moves and people have to step up to address this.

But its not entirely clear whether this represents an opportunity for the offense to develop better flow and cohesiveness. I guess we will see.

I used Hawes cause he's the starting center for right now. Hawes is not as good as Sam Dalembert on both ends of the court. While Sam kills offense, it seems that Hawes does an even better job at killing offense than Sam, combined with his much worse defense.

The point is that the improved offense has to come from hawes and speights and at least in hawes case, he's worse (so far in his career) than sam at both ends of the floor.

I'm not ready to say Hawes is worse FOR the offense. If he jacks up a ton of ill advised 18 footers like he sometimes did for the Kings then he is worse. But if he can be a decent passer and occasional jump shooter (and if the passing rubs off on Sam and Brand) then the entire offense could flow better.

I could see the offense overall being smoother if the bigs can pull their men from the basket and be decent passers to cutters within the flow. Overall, Hawes probably has more of a future as a reserve C. But on this roster he likely will be forced into a bigger role.

I'm not predicting, I'm looking at the past, and while Sam Dalembert has been bad offensively, Hawes has been worse. The few tools one has for predicting the future is past performance, and Hawes has been worse (overall) in his impact on the offense in his 3 years than Sam was. I'm not saying either was good, but Hawes was worse. Can Collins fix that? I suppose it's possible though all the talk has been about his ability to improve defenses, not offenses :)

I agree, Hawes is not the answer at C. I don't think Sam or any of the current roster represents a legit long term answer.

That's partly why I would have been behind swapping Iguodala for Favors or Cousins.

for this year I'm not looking for much out of Hawes. But I am interested in seing how the overall offense flows. Especially with all of the recent hype of Jrue the great.

Gotcha. Yeah, I don't expect much from Hawes this year, nor do I care as much about Hawes as to what the sixers get out of Speights and the other folk I think have a chance to be a serious part of the future.

bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Oct 2 at 1:05

How could Hawes be worse for the offense? Assuming that he will get ZERO playing time if all he does is jack up 20 footers and get zero rebounds, I would assume that he will 1) LISTEN to Collins and the coaching staff in terms of what they want to do in terms of offensive philosophy; 2) watch film, study and do the other things that players who actually CARE about improving their game do; and 3) pass the ball once in a while.

If Hawes does those 3 things, it is a virtual impossibility that he will be worse than Sammy would have been on offense had he stayed, IMO.

"first needs to make up for the drastic difference in scoring efficiency between him and Dalembert."

I think Dalembert's scoring efficiency is virtually worthless considering the low usage. His scoring efficiency didn't affect the team positively nearly as much as floor spacing and pacing (if Hawes/Speights/Brackins do end up providing that) can help.

The key is how much it tangibly helps, but I don't value Sam's "efficient" scoring all that much, at least in the realm of improving team offensive efficiency.

Purely from a statistical standpoint, adding in a guy much less efficient player at a higher usage rate hurts. It's compounded if the new guy's efficiency is worse than the rest of the team (which it is in this case), because he's taking away possessions from the group as well. That was my point.

Hawes usage rate was only 2% higher than Dalemberts last year. He's not exactly a high usage player. And, again, that's only from an individual standpoint. I do believe in floor spacing and the benefits it can provide our bigs. I do expect Hawes to help out more offensively than Dalembert (although I'd rather have Dalembert if the goal was to make a playoff run this year, I'm not saying Hawes will provide more overall benefit as a basketball player).

B-R.com has his the dif. in usage at 4.5%.

I also need to see this benefit in spacing with my own eyes before I'll believe it, though, because if I'm game planning against the Sixers, I'm not concerned with Hawes shooting 18-footers, and I'm hoping he'll keep launching threes.

LOL. I looked at Sammy D's TOV%. I guess just quickly glancing at his profile I expected his usage% to be the higher of the two numbers.

And I qualified it with an "if he spaces the floor".

This I don't get, and I'm not reading anything in to it, because other sources have different findings and, well, I don't really care much about what the team did under EFJ, but according to B-R.com, the team's offensive efficiency rating was better w/ Sammy on the floor than without, last season.

Well lobs to Sam and offensive put backs are two of the most "effecient" offensive plays you can have. So maybe that pushed the numbers a bit.

Yep, and that's a big concern. Do they have anyone capable of rolling and finishing like he did? They definitely don't have anyone to clean the offensive glass like he did.

Unfortunately, when Brand gets an o-board, it's probably still a 1-point possession, whereas with Sam it was easily 1.5.

I've tried to ask that to Kate and Dei with regards to Speights. If he has his legs back then he can definitely fill that role. But last seasons Speights could not get off the floor.

Off of the top of your head, how does the Sixers team Hawes in on this year compare to the Kings the last few years? Both seem to be devoid of interior defenders. While the Sixers have much better passers and much worse shooters.

How does this effect how Hawes's strengths and weaknesses translate to this Sixer team as compared to what we saw on the Kings.

I'd say his ability to pass and shoot (a little bit) should be more valuable on the Sixers. Also, his passing probably helped less with the absence of other good passers. But defensively, its the same problem as it was there.

Generally speaking, Sixers have a better back court, probably equal front court. Like you said, better shooting in Sacto, better everything else in Philly.

If Hawes got his assists on kick-outs for threes, he's going to hurt a bit here. If he's a good interior passer here, shouldn't be much of a difference.

Defensively, I'm just hoping he doesn't make us as bad as Sacto was with him in the middle.

There will be nights that the Sixers are taken to the woodshed in the pain. Against the Magic, Lakers, Bulls and Celtics they will be killed. But they aren't beating those teams this year anyway :)

In terms of Hawes, I was not asking about his numbers. More about how his presense harms or helps his team on the floor.

For example, if the current Sixers and 2009 Kings were both running a P.O., on the current Sixers Hawes probably fits better, since his good passing combined with other players passing could really work. While on the Kings there are no other good passers to make it a good passing team. On the other hand, with no shooters to kick to he might be forced to shoot more... which would be very bad.

I totally agree with this. I didn't really value Sams efficiency and can only hope the offense of the other guys helps everyone else. I thought the efficiency was a little bit of a misnomer with him. Now these other guys I'm still not crazy about though.

Great Collins quote here, maybe a dig at Jordan?

"What I’m doing right now is he’s such a hard worker. He wanted to come out and work some more and I said, ‘Jrue, remember, you didn’t play the first 60 games last year and so you could do all that. Now you’ve got to start thinking 36 minutes a night, all 82 games. I don’t want you to leave your legs here right now.'"

No, I don't see it as a EJ criticism. Just starting the fact that Jrue will have to deal with heavy minutes this year.

BTW, that quote was more of the daily Jrue Hype train. I'm certainly ready to jump aboard :) :

"There's been a lot of hype around point guard Jrue Holiday in the first week of camp. Let's add to that hype: Jrue looks bigger and stronger. Collins touched on something today which was on display during the team's scrimmaging: Holiday's ability to finish with his left hand around the rim. It's quite likely that when everyone gets to see Holiday play on Tuesday against the Nets, they're going to be similarly excited about watching Holiday this year. During the scrimmage, Holiday drove right into the lane, spun back to his left hand in the heart of the lane, and went up to finish against one of the opposing big men (maybe Speights). He just hung in the air, shifted his body away from the defender, and finished with his off hand. It was a play that perhaps no one else on the team could have made."

"He’s unbelievable," Collins said. "What I’m doing right now is he’s such a hard worker. He wanted to come out and work some more and I said, ‘Jrue, remember, you didn’t play the first 60 games last year and so you could do all that. Now you’ve got to start thinking 36 minutes a night, all 82 games. I don’t want you to leave your legs here right now.'"

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/deep-sixer/Collins_most_importantly_Turner_is_having_fun.html?text=med&c=y#ixzz118FDLGPj
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Rich reply to tk76 on Oct 1 at 14:19

I don't know, a slight dig though? You didn't play the first sixty games? That's a little bit of hyperbole even though it felt like 60 games :)

Well Iguodala played nearly twice as many minutes as Jrue last year. But yes, saying he did not play the first 60 games is stretching it a bit.

I've gotten the feeling a couple times that Collins is saying, "How could that idiot Jordan not have given this kid more minutes."

The kid was 19 and did not even play PG in college. Had Miller still been a Sixer I believe most coaches would have eased him along the 1st half of the year. It was more the total lack of another PG that could have opened the door to minutes earlier.

But honestly, after game 15 Jrue got pretty regular minutes. There were only a few times around the AI signing that his minutes were cut...

Jack Straw on Oct 1 at 14:34

Losing Dalembert leaves an obvious void defensively and on the glass. As dumb as he was, you can't argue his effectiveness in some key categories.

We've brought in more offensively skilled big men and upgraded our coaching staff, but none of it fills the void that Sammy left, which is an obvious concern going into the season. I'm just not convinced that strong perimeter defense and team rebounding is something that can be relied upon to overcompensate for our lack of an inside presence.

As for Jrue, he clearly has the tools and size fitting of a prototypical point guard. I do feel like he has elite play making ability and I have little doubt that he's the truth defensively. My only reservation with Jrue is that I'm not convinced that he's capable of carrying a team offensively, and I truly hope his outside shooting his rookie year wasn't an aberration.

As great as he can become, there is just a plethora of young talent at the PG position right now. I believe he can reach top 5 pg levels at times while remaining a constant top 10 point guard throughout his career, while arguably being the top defender at the position.

You can't expect strong team rebounding when you have given up your single best rebounder and replaced him with two much worse rebounders. Your team rebounding inevitably takes a hit.

BTW, if the long term plan is to start Thaddeus Young at the three spot, that's got to take a hit to the hope that the sixers would have strong perimeter defense this year. He's not a good defender.

I have not given up hope of Thad becoming a decent perimeter defends. I agree he has been lousy, but I'm not ready to close the book given his age and prior coach.

Was his defense somehow acceptable, at the four spot, under DiLeo and Cheeks?

I don't think, physically, he can guard the 4. Although he really has bulked up over the last 2 years, so maybe that could change. He does have the right instincts inside.

While at the SF, he has the physical tools, but lacked the experience. The guy played PF in HS, and I don't think he ever really learned to guard the perimeter. Honestly, I don't know if he can pick it up at such a late age, but I'm willing to give it another year.

johnrosz reply to tk76 on Oct 1 at 15:02

That's where a real coach steps in. Hopefully Collins sees the tools that we all see, and helps Thad to put it all together. I don't think they did anything to help Thad become a better defender while Jordan was here. Too much time was spent with that idiot Randy Ayers making sure they ruined any good habits he had picked up with Mark Price.

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Oct 1 at 14:58

Thad is not a 4. His defense wasn't acceptable at the 4 because he wasn't capable of banging down there with guys twice his size. Under Cheeks and Dileo I think he showed some promise in the sense that he at least tried to defend. Last year with the stupid rotations/lack of system, he had no idea what he was supposed to be doing most of the time. I don't think it was due to a lack of ability to play defense

Rich reply to johnrosz on Oct 1 at 15:08

I think footspeed/quickness is not a strong suit of Thad, especially laterally. His individual defense tends to have him really sagging. This isn't said that much because he runs like a gazelle and can jump out of the building. He does go too fast for himself and shuffle his feet on the catch a lot too.

johnrosz reply to Rich on Oct 1 at 15:11

He's lengthy though and now he especially has a size advantage on a lot of other 3's. I'd just like to see how he does in Collins system before I write him off

Rich reply to johnrosz on Oct 1 at 15:16

Definitely still deserves a chance. I just sometimes think his athleticism is talked about all over the floor, when in reality he doesn't look like he has it or wants to use it.

Ugh, there's one sag in particular that I'll never forget.

Ray Allen?

Nope, but that one was painful as well. I was thinking about Hedo.

Rich reply to tk76 on Oct 1 at 15:26


Rondo can't carry an offense either, and in the opinion of one of the posters above, he's a top 5 PG. Jrue is a much better shooter than Rondo, and you'll never see Rondo pivot in the paint and finish with his left hand.

Does anybody agree that Rondo is better than Rose? Or Billups? Would you trade Westbrook to get Rondo?

Rondo has carried his team in several playoff games. I give him extra credit until Westbrook, Jrue or Rose show the same ability to step up and will their teams to victory. All three have the potential, but you won't know until their teams get to a higher level- which will be the case for OKC and Chicago this year. But it might be a few years 9or longer) until Jrue gets to show what he can do in the playoffs.

Jack Straw reply to Charlie H on Oct 1 at 15:31

This is true. , but Rondo can run an offense about as good as anyone and his quickness and speed are still a major threat that will cause defenses to collapse, and he does a phenomenal job of capitalizing on it. He's also a great rebounder/defender and a walking triple double.

Rondo does a good enough job at the other things he brings to the table that it overcompensates for him not owning a jump shot. He also has the superior playoff resume, which is enough to keep him in the conversation.

Good points both. I just have a bug up my ass about Rondo (mainly because I hate the Cs of course.) Many of the posts on this thread say something like "must become an efficient scorer" or "he'll be top 5 if he can shoot the three at close to 40%" or "doesn't finish at the rim with his right hand." It seems that Rondo always gets a pass in these areas. People talk about him like he's Magic Johnson. For every nice finish on a drive, he clangs one. (He's attempted some of the most ridiculous layups in the history of basketball.) His jump shot improved this year to the barely acceptable level. He dribbles the ball for 18 seconds on almost every possession.

I know Rondo's good, and has the intangibles, and is smart, but I see most of his games and he does a lot of stuff I'd hate to see my point guard do.

Rondo is a player who I always wonder how he would be on a lousy team. His shooting is not an issue when you have PP, Allan and KG. But what if he had been drafted by the Sixers or some other lousy team? Would he have found the success to be a top 10 PG?

Joe reply to tk76 on Oct 2 at 13:00

Yeah. I'd say he'd be the same player pretty much.

He was great his rookie year actually before the big 3 came around. According to some advanced metrics he was the most productive or very close to the most productive rookie.

Without being on a good team, would he get as much notoriety? I doubt it. He would have to score more points for that probably.

That is how I see it at least.

I just wonder if defenses could play him differently if he lacked other offensive weapons/shooters.

Seen on NBA Fanhouse:

"I noticed that you mercifully left out Collins' statement the Holiday will be a top-five point guard in this league, which is patently ridiculous. Not because Holiday isn't oozing potential, after looking like a ho-hum pick on draft night. On numbers alone, he's up against stalwarts Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, and Rajon Rondo, plus newer contenders like Darren Collison, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, and John Wall -- and that's not even counting borderline PGs like Tyreke Evans, or those I have a personal vendetta against, like Derrick Rose. He is, however, plenty legit, as he showed toward the end of the season -- enough so that making him the starter, while it started as planning for the future, ended up looking like it should have happened a long time ago."

jsmoove on Oct 1 at 17:25

Really disappointed to read/hear some of the things being said about our #2 draft pick. Sounds like we just drafted our backup PG. And he was the most NBA ready player in the draft? This isn't going to turn out good if he struggles cause his trade value will plummet.

johnrosz reply to jsmoove on Oct 1 at 17:33

think perhaps you might be rushing to judgment?

Turner is NBA ready to step in and be a ball dominant wing. But that is not what the starting line-up needs right now, so he will have to adapt his game a bit to where he can mesh with the starters.

I don't see how this is a huge problem. Worse case, if he only is good as a ball dominant wing then we trade Iguodala and bring in a shooter. We sort of knew this would be an initial issue when he was drafted... we just need to give it a few months to sort itself out.

deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Oct 1 at 18:45

He seemed to have his way with Iggy, according to B.Cooney, who said he scored 3 baskets, one an and 1 from 20 ft. while Iggy guarded him.

Our new coach said after the Sammy trade that he couldn't play Sam and Elton together anyway, that was why Elton was being mentioned as our starting center. All this talk of Sammy and offensive efficiency made me throw up in my mouth a little [ Go sixers line]. We don't have anybody who can catch alleyoops and offensive rebound? I guess other teams will have to guard 5 people this year and not sag off a guy who is not a threat.

I don't think Sammy is as smart or good defensively as Camby and Denver did fine after he left so let's see what our new coach can do. It amazes me how Hawes at 22 is a finished product in the eyes of some yet Thad, Spieghts,Turner, Jrue, Meeks and Brackins, some a year older have room to grow.

I'd be curios to hear a rational explanation for why Sam and Brand couldn't be on the same court at the same time.

I mean when Jordan refused to play Speights and Dalembert together I chalked it up to him not being a good coach, but I'd be curios to see the wise coach tell me why Brand and Dalembert couldn't play together. That sounds like after the fact spin control

I think you're right.

A friend told me the other day that the word on Turner is that he's a disappointment, something like that. Cousins, too. I figured he was reading Wizard blogs or something. He also said Wall is the only high pick who's impressing. Sounded like the typical Bucher-like snap judgement that is overheard and passed along.

Question, though not very pressing. What are the chances we actually start the season 1-0? It would mean absolutely nothing but it would feel pretty great for day or so.

Off of that, if they don't start out so well like Collins is emphasizing as a must, and I am pretty certain they will, what happens? Crowds and confidence dwindle and a repeat of last year, or will Collins' energy and abilities be enough to keep them focused and competing?

I figure the Heat will be maybe 15 point favorites on opening night, but who knows. If Twitter is any indication, there are 10 million people dying to go see the Heat kill the Sixers in Philly.

Rob_STC reply to Brian on Oct 2 at 10:43

You bring up a good point. If the Phillies are in the WS and they move the time of the NBA game up It will be like an NBA finals crowd (the game is will be sold out)and I think the Sixers team will be pumped as everyone has already penciled the Heat in for a win. Also the Heat will have an emotional opener in Boston the night before so who knows ?

And Turner wins the game winner using that sweet step back baseline move :)

If Thorn is looking for some help on the defensive glass, I wonder why he doesn't take a shot on Josh Boone? He's still a free agent, I'm not sure why no team has picked him up yet. 22% def. rebounding last year and .153 WP/48, he's a fairly productive role player who can also play the 5 on the defensive end for a stretch. Maybe his terrible free throw shooting has scared people off or maybe he's looking for more than the minimum salary? I don't know, seems strange.

I think it makes sense.

They aren't going to take on another contract though. I think Boone would have been better than Battie, but what do I know?

Interesting question from Bob Cooney tonight (the link is in the reading list). How many minutes will be left for Turner?

Assuming the starting lineup is what it is right now, Jrue is going to play 36 minutes/game, how much can we really expect Turner to play? He's got Nocioni penciled in for 20 minutes at the three off the bench, and Thad starting. That probably leaves maybe a max of 10 minutes for Iguodala to play the three. Which will probably leave about 20 minutes of PT at the two. Those go to Lou Williams. We're probably talking about less than 15 minutes for Turner. Backup PG (12 min, maybe) and third-string SG (less than 5, probably).

deepsixersuede reply to Brian on Oct 1 at 23:41

I think Jrue gets 32 minutes and L.Will. and Turner about the same [20 min.]. The wildcard is Kapono, I thought he would be in a suit all year but he seems to be a Collins favorite. Hopefully all this position competition separates the men from the boys and makes the choices easy.

Do you think Kapono or Meeks can fill a Korver type role of finishing quarters with a set play 3 pt. shot?

This makes me feel that Lou needs to be traded for a draft pick or a defensive big like, yesterday. Now he's not only causing problems defensively, but he's blocking Turner cause he can't play the point. Please Rod just get rid of him and get what you can, then bring in a back up point to play 12 minutes, and move Turner to the SG, I don't care if Lou is a scorer or not.

deepsixersuede reply to Chunky Soup on Oct 1 at 23:48

It seems like Lou is tailor made for this offense and a big part of their plans but I can!t disagree with your logic. With screens being a big part of what they are doing I wonder who is setting them. Elton and Marreese didn't look good at it last year at all.


"The white team won the seven-quarter scrimmage with a roster of Williams, Andre Iguodala, Thaddeus Young, Craig Brackins, Spencer Hawes, Trent Plaisted and Chris Quinn"

So that makes the Blue: Jrue/Turner/Kaopono/Brand/Speights...Meeks/Songalia (Nocioni and Battie sat out.)


You could argue that the Blue team had 4 of 5 eventual starters but lost. That says something about team depth and how valuable Iguodala is to this team.

"“Evan was great posting up the guards tonight,” associate head coach Michael Curry said after the Sixers’ evening session.” He was 4-of-4 on post-ups and they ended up having to really front him so that he couldn’t get easy catches, but he was good when he caught the ball down on the block. I had to mention that, that was really good.”"

Looking at the match-ups, you have to figure Thad was doing that against either Iguodala or Thad- which is impressive given his size.

"“They moved the ball really well, they knocked down threes, they made open shots, got to the free throw line,” Curry explained. “And Andre and Thad were double-figure rebounders tonight in three quarters, so they were tremendous.”"

"As Collins left the gym he reiterated Curry’s thoughts saying, “Dre and Thad were strong and Elton [Brand] has been a workhorse.”"

Brian, I'm writing an article on Evan Turner. Would you be interested in posting it? I used to contribute to Derek's blog, and my writing is patently mediocre... but sometimes I want a soapbox.

I could either email it to you or copy it into a comment.

I sent you an email. Feel free to copy it into comments if you don't want to make it a separate post.

Check your e-mail.

tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 2 at 14:07

Thanks. Feel free to add your personal take if you want to make it a point/counterpoint type post.

tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 2 at 14:12

I had some other info such as historical performance of #2 picks and who has or has not started right away and some things about the Summer League... but I wanted to a keep it simple.

Tom Moore on Oct 2 at 13:10

Collins stopped practice twice today to tell players they had to set better screens. I haven't seen this happen in a long time.

Tom Moore on Oct 2 at 13:12

Collins hasn't had Young playing anything other than small forward in camp.

He also said Chris Quinn has a shot to make the team as the 15th man. He said they wanted a young big guy in that spot, but the Green trade gave them one (Brackins) and possibly created a need for a third PG (behind Holiday and Turner).

Tom Moore on Oct 2 at 13:40

Thaddeus Young: "You really have to pay attention to detail with coach Collins. If you don’t, he does. You might as well get it right now and create that habit. In the past, we had bad habits. Now, all of that is out the window. When something goes wrong, we're even stopping ourselves and starting over."

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