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Is It OK To Be Concerned?

I'm at the point where I tell myself that no matter how bad E.T is, he's not anything worse than what we'd have if we had the 6th pick. Knowing now that E.T is still a work in progress it would be a no brainer to go with the Raw, but younger Favors.

Imagine what happens if Iguodala goes down with an injury early in the season? Could we win a game lol? our roster surely would be worse than the nets last year. Realistically speaking, if Iguodala goes down are we the worst team in the league besides (hopefully) Minnesota?

Yes. I think we're probably worse than Minny if Iguodala gets hurt.

I didn't get to watch the game, but I'm pretty glad I missed it. One thing I will say from the box score is that it looked like the Celtics were at full strength and they have the type of team that I'd especially think the Sixers match up bad with.

That being said, I hope Turner can show us something at some point, but the "out of shape, hadn't played in 3 months" excuses have to stop soon. He doesn't have to come out gangbusters like Tyreke Evans did last year, but I'd like to see something good shooting-wise from him. Is he not getting his own shot off the dribble?

Too early to panic thoug. The Celtics have an identity and a strong team who likes to start fast. We don't. The Hawes report is really troubling, especially the lazy part. Without EB and AI9, this isn't far off from the score I expected. Those are two guys you know can compete with the Celtics.

I didn't get to watch the game, but I'm pretty glad I missed it. One thing I will say from the box score is that it looked like the Celtics were at full strength and they have the type of team that I'd especially think the Sixers match up bad with.

Rich, the thing is, the Sixers had matched up well with the Celtics the past few years because they were athletic and long, but the downgrade from Dalembert to Hawes really hurts that, because fewer defensive stops and fewer defensive rebounds means fewer fastbreaks. That said, the Celtics are going to be trouble this year if Shaq is motivated. If they stay healthy, they'll be a handful for Miami.

That being said, I hope Turner can show us something at some point, but the "out of shape, hadn't played in 3 months" excuses have to stop soon. He doesn't have to come out gangbusters like Tyreke Evans did last year, but I'd like to see something good shooting-wise from him. Is he not getting his own shot off the dribble?

To my eyes, the only way he gets a step on his man is via his behind-the-back/change-of-direction move (which is one of the best that I've seen). On his one basket last night, he used an Andre Miller-like hesitation dribble to get by his man and laid it in over a slow-rotating backup center. I will say that there is promise in his game, because of his good handle, if he learns to use his body better. Somehow, though, I think we were all hoping for more than a taller version of Andre Miller (and that's in the best case).

smh1980 on Oct 7 at 4:05

I think that Hawes will probably be losing that starting spot pretty soon if he doesn't do a complete 180 in the next few games.

Collins is learning about his team a little faster than he probably wished he did. We can't blame EJ for this one but I do imagine that practices will get harder and harder after a performance like this. I think that Collins will play the people that do what he asks and everyone that wants to do their own thing won't see the floor much IMO.

Turner... I don't know what to expect from him anymore. I know what to expect from the guys that have been here atleast a year but Turner looks so bad that he won't deserve 5 minutes/game when the season starts. I think that Collins will keep him off the floor unless he makes some serious improvements.

Collins face from the sideline during the game says it all. I want to see how they rebound from a game like this.

I think that Hawes will probably be losing that starting spot pretty soon if he doesn't do a complete 180 in the next few games.

This is what I predict. Compared to Hawes, Speights looks like Bill Russell.

mchezo on Oct 7 at 6:52

Didn't see the game but there is definitely reason to be concerned. what the hell is up jrue??? he is supposed to be making the jump to a top five point guard. His assist to turnover ratio is .41/1 he is shooting 31 percent from the field averaging 6 t/o a game. don't know whether i can stand another year like last year.

dafsdfdgdfsg reply to mchezo on Oct 7 at 7:03


Joe reply to mchezo on Oct 7 at 7:19

Jrue has yet to show an ability to limit his TOs. That is a fact.

Can things change? Yes. Is this shocking? It shouldn't be. He has been a turnover machine in plenty of games.

And please lower your expectations if you think this team is better than last year. Coaching isn't going to make a 20 win team a 40 win team at the NBA level. This personnel is really, really horrible. Look back at Brian's statistical analysis post. This team "should" win like 20 games based on last year's production levels.

Old School Sixer Fan on Oct 7 at 7:24

The game last night was one of the worst I've ever seen. They were terrible in every aspect of the game. I saw nothing to be encouraged about. I've always been the incurable optimist. Yes, it is only preseason. True, Iguodala and Brand didn't play. They are young and new to each other. They are just starting to learn whet the new coach wants them to do. But shooting the basketball isn't new to any of them. They looked like a neighborhood pick-up team playing against the Celtics. Well, I've been cured.

Mike P on Oct 7 at 7:42

Well all my happiness from getting Turner is gone. Remember the good ol' days of summer when we all fantasized about having one of the leagues best backcourts for the next decade?

That's out the window. It does indeed look like we reverse jordaned it. We took the Kwame Brown of guards. How out of shape can you be? This is depressing. We are a bunch of wild and depressed guys.

Yes, that is a quick jump to despair. But our team might be one of the worst in the league. Even with our entire starting line up playing I can't see us doing any better than 30-52.

The part that stings the most is just missing out on Wall and then passing on Cousins, and Favors potential.

All aboard the blow it up train. The Quick fix express needs to be derailed.

deepsixersuede on Oct 7 at 8:02

It was ugly but Toronto beat Pheonix by 51 last night, should they be worried? Our coach said he told the bigs to defend and rebound so he doesn't have to play small; well if he doesn't see an improvement in effort in the next couple games than maybe the Elton/ Thad duo at the 5/4 deserves a shot and put our rook at the s.g. to sink or swim. A smart move now would be to offer Brackins, if he has any value, to Toronto for a big that has a skill our bigs lack, toughness. J.Dorsey is 26, had 10 rebounds in 18 minutes and at 265 lbs. can body up with any center in the league. Go get him Rod, give your coach a chance !!!!

mchezo on Oct 7 at 8:35

Another issue with this team is that everyone wants to shoot first. from top to bottom on this is pretty much a shoot first roster. we have more black holes than the milky way.

If Stewiefanski screwed up the #2 pick, no way he stays even as Thorn's glorified lackey, right? I thought Turner was a good pick but only from reading the press. I never, you know, actually watched him play.

Hiring Eddie Jordan + picking a stiff at #2 (if it turns out to be true) = tarred and feathered and frogmarched down Broad Street.

khouse on Oct 7 at 9:04

Instead of trading...at this point I'd look to the D-League for any big who has the ability to play consistent defense & block shots. Hell, as I tweeted Brian, Greg Stiemsma just got cut by Cleveland & although a project himself, at 6"11" is a better defender than anyone of the bigs we have on the roster right now

I try really hard not to read too much from the first two preseason games. But i truly am worried. From these games you can actually see how valuable Igoudala is to the team. There were only four players who looked like rotational players (besides the vets Dre and Elton):Lou, Young, Speights and Meeks. I am actually pleasently surprised by Meeks and if he continues like this he will earn minutes by the end of the year. Young on the other hand is the only one who has starter type ability.

Turner had some encouraging and a many more discouraging moments. He was however better than Jrue in both games and that really has me worried...

Yeah I'm not all that worried about Turner. The main thing is he's just not making shots right now. He looks lost in the offensive sets, like he's unsure of exactly what to do so he's probably a bit nervous, and that affects his shooting. It's only his rookie year so he needs a little bit of time to let his mind catch up to his game. It looks like Turner has plenty of ability to make plays, he's just not finishing right now. He seems like the type of player who needs to get his confidence going before he really starts to play well. He'll start to feel more comfortable when he gets several NBA games under his belt, and when he has some success he can take a breath and get going.

Jess Sayan on Oct 7 at 9:46

Does this Collins quote mean a trade is imminent?

"It covers up a multitude of sins if you can make shots," Sixers coach Doug Collins said. "The one thing I'm going to have to address is how we get the right pieces so we can get enough shooting out there."

In his coaching career with the Chicago Bulls, Detroit Pistons, and Washington Wizards, Collins said, it usually took him about three weeks to understand precisely how to use his personnel.

"You think you know what guys can do, and then all of a sudden that play that looked good on the board doesn't look so good anymore," he said.

It is another coach talking about shooting/scoring. Nothing new there.

I think we can be concerned- but let's not let a loss like this to what may be the best team in the Eastern Conference shake us too much. Boston is starting potentially 5 Hall of Famers...5. We started Spencer Hawes, Trent Plaisted, and Jodie Meeks.

Boston has chemistry, experience, and talent that our squad can't match right now. In addition to that, our best player and our best/most experienced post player were out.

Hopefully this taught some lessons and our guys gleaned something from Boston.

Also- I didn't see the game. What does Turner's shot selection look like right now? I am encouraged that he's getting to the line a lot.

Prior to the draft, many fans (myself included) were hoping this team would trade Iguodala for a second high lottery pick (and trade away Sam) and truly bottom out this year with an eye to the future. Build around Jrue, two high lottery picks and the other young players on the roster... and likely get another top 5 pick next summer.

Well last night shows how that would have looked. No Iguodala and no Sam leaves this team with no defense. Jrue is very good, but he is 20. He will have lapsed on both ends this year because of his age and inexperience.

I am a fan of Iguodala, and hate watching ugly basketball. But I want to see this team build to be a winner. Several years ago the team made a huge mistake with the AI trade. They had a chance to truly bottom out and instead tried to take short cuts. So this time around, if there is any way to get a promising young big or a probable top 6 pick for Iguodala I really hope they jump at it.

This team has some promising young talent. Add two more top 6 picks next summer and they could be on the ground floor of something. But stumble to 35 wins this year without any interior defense, and I'm not sure the team will have a future beyond mediocrity.

Heresy. Rod Thorn said they're retooling, not rebuilding.

tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 10:35

I'm still sticking with 35 wins this year (assuming Iguodala and Holiday stay healthy.) But I'm not sure what the long term plan is for this team.

I was for Turner at #2, but even at the draft the consensus was he lack a true superstar ceiling. So where exactly is this team headed long term if they are looking to climb back to the playoffs over the next few seasons... still without a superstar? This has been my constant criticism of Stefanski. But maybe Thorn is different. He at least has acquired stars in the past.

tk76 reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 10:38

And to be clear... Stefanski should be judged by how Turner pans out. I was for Turner. 80% of the fans and most GMs' thought Turner was worthy of the #2 pick. Just like with the Brand signing, what matters is the results.

You measure a GM by the success or failure of their moves. You do not give them a pass because you as a fan agreed at the time or that the move seemed to be the right one at the time.

Its like judging a president. You don't look and measure them by the quality of their thought process or the popularity of their decisions at the time. You measure them by the outcomes of their decisions and how it effected the nation.

You measure them by the outcomes of their decisions and how it effected the nation.

You also hold them responsible for things that the other guy did (especially if they aren't in your party)

Happening now, even happened to Bush (he wasn't responsible for the mortgage mess folks, that was Clinton)

tk76 reply to GoSixers on Oct 7 at 10:51

That's true. But either way its a results oriented job. You should not get many bonus points for having good intentions.

In Thorn's case, his predecessor was also his protege, so you could hold him responsible on some level for Stefanski's f ups.

Mike P reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 17:31

This, more then anything else Sixers related, drives me NUTS.

What is he retooling around? Iggy is a talented player, but he has nothing to mesh with. No true SG to space the floor for him, no one to play in the post, no one to grab boards to set up breaks for him to jam on people.

It's just Iggy and a bare cupboard at this point with some potentially meal making spices (in Jrue and Turner)

I'm hoping NJ completely bottoming out is some sort of sign that Thorn realizes the best way to make a crappy team good is to completely bottom them out.

I'd even accept that if they let us know that was the plan. Right now we are STILL in the ocean with no sail.

"Last night's starting lineup was Jrue Holiday at the point, Jodie Meeks at the two, Thad Young at the small forward, Trent Plaisted at the power forward and Spencer Hawes at center."

20 years old
borderline NBA player
borderline NBA starter
Bench player


Ray Allen

So not exactly a surprise. Sort of like when a top 5 college team has a tune up against a FBS team.

Rich reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 10:26

A full-strength contender against a patchwork also-ran right now. Not far from the score I expected.

The interior defense is going to be terrible all year though. This "all 5 guys rebound" approach has to include the PF and C, and it's bad news when we're clamoring for Brand.

They didn't exactly look good against Harangody, Erden and the other D-League fodder the Celts played most of the night either.

Mike P reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 17:33

Turner is playing against second units most of the time right? I mean he is coming in at the end of the first quarter usually I am seeing. So what is that saying about him?

Ugh, please prove me wrong ET and become a tricky SG like we all hoped.

I'm surprised it wasn't a shutout.

76ciology reply to tk76 on Oct 8 at 1:05

What's alarming is that it was Erden who was raping our interior defense. There was one point where I was ready to trade ET + Jrue for him. LOL

eddies' heady's on Oct 7 at 10:23

Wesley Johnson anyone?

It's really disconcerting that your #2 draft pick doesn't even look as good as Jodie Meeks, instead looking more like a Derrick Byars out there. OUch! It hurt to type that...

Honestly, I don't care at this point how the other draft picks turn out. They are not Sixers.

Do you follow Rondo closely because the Sixers should have picked him instead of Carney?

Regardless of how Turner pans out (and I believe he will be good):

1. Most years someone drafted after the #2 pick becomes a better player. That is just the law of averages. Very rarely does the draft order accurately predict how each player will rank 5 years later. In fact, on average #2 picks turn out to be no better than picks #2-#5. It is the #1 overall pick that typically stands out- especially when it is a no brainer.

2. I do not think the 2010 draft class was very strong. Wall could be a star, but after Wall I believe we are looking at several probable good but not truly great players (Turner, Johnson, Cousins) and then a bunch of Dalambert types- meaning guys with tons of athletic ability but you have to try and project to what degree they will tap into their potential. So guys like Favors and Whiteside have similar potential athletically but Favors goes 3 and Whiteside 33 mainly based on their personalities.

eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 11:02

"Do you follow Rondo closely because the Sixers should have picked him instead of Carney?"

Sure I follow players that 'I' wanted my fav team to pick. In this example you set forth - no I don't follow Rondo. But if it was someone that I wanted the team to pick only through my own analysis then, yes I follow them for mostly their whole careers. Ty Lawson is a good example last year and this year I was on the Wesley Johnson train pre-draft.

As for the 2010 draft not being very strong. I totally agree. I commented on here somewhere around the end of the season before the lottery how screwed up it was that the one year we have a terrible record with a chance at a top pick and there will be a shortage of game changers for us to select. (This was when we assumed we would probably end up with the #6 pick)

You were right. Picks #6-#9 were nothing to get excited about (Udoh/Monroe/Aminu/Hayward.) They could become good starters, but no home runs in that list.

Not surprising Hawes sat out the 2nd half with a sore back. Especially considering its widely thought that the guy has no spine.

Anyone else think it's kind of funny Hawes was talking about the weight he gained, and it looks like he gained it by eating ice cream?

Mike P reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 17:35

Yes, I am ready to watch him all year long and unleash my hate for Jason Smith on him.

He is white, doughy, weak, and just asking to be booed.

Rich reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 11:28

I don't want to rush to judgment on Turner, but this guy doesn't look like he's easy to root for.

Not really concerned with Turner. He seems to have a head on his shoulders and I think the frustration will turn to motivation. He is still attacking and rebounding. Those shots he was taking around the rim will start to fall.

The "Bigs" concern me. Brand will be better, but he is too small to defend the big post guys around the league, and not quick enough to defend the agile perimeter bigs. Thorn needs to find a way to package the few remaining expiring contracts and/or some young talent and get some defense around the rim.

I'm all for Gortat. I think he is the one valuable guy around the league with size on a decent contract that is expendable. I would be calling Orlando twice a day trying to pry him away.

I'd like to have him from a "Jesus, I'm going to have to watch 82 games of this crap?" perspective. But thinking long-term, is he going to be the answer three years down the road? If not, they may just be better off letting the expiring contracts come off the books, take their lumps and hope for another lucky bounce in the lottery.

Ryan F reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 11:42

The answer in terms of All-star, 1st team defender? Unlikely. A serviceable starting center with size and a brain that can play both sides of the ball adequately is certain. In limited minutes the guy has put up some solid numbers. He is only 26, makes cap friendly money, is European, and is "tough" as can be.

I don't want to watch another season like last year. I think fans who believe its "championship or bust" are going to be let down 99% of the time. I just want to see some competitive basketball that I can be proud to root for.

I also think piss poor seasons kill development. We have 2 young players with above average ceilings, and I believe being respectable will go along way to help them achieve that, and something will have to change up front to make that possible.

Typically, I agree with everything you just said. That game I watched last night has me in a sour mood, though.

Ryan F reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 11:51

Me too. I literally felt sick and went to bed. Was so excited to see the game but in hindsight, I wish it wasn't even accessible.

Gortat doesn't help this team builds towards a championship because they are so far from it all he does is help them aspire to mediocrity. I'm not interested in a barely 500 team that gets bitch slapped in the first round of the playoffs every year, I want a team that seems to have a direction. That seems to be building towards something.

Sadly the sixers still seem to be a rudderless clueless ship. Gilligan would be the smartest man on the SS SIxers if he was around

Ryan F reply to GoSixers on Oct 7 at 11:54

I'm not excited for 39 win seasons and first round exits either. I do think that if we have a couple of those in the next few years it would go along way towards instilling the confidence needed in Jrue and Turner to be championship caliber talents in the future. Continually getting beat on like last night can bring nothing positive mentally, and that is such a big part of competitive sports.

Yeah I don't buy into the whole 'you gotta be in the playoffs to win in the playoffs' mentality.

It was proven pretty wrong last night by Roy Halladay.

This team is so far from contending for a title making the playoffs is a bad thing because the way the NBA currently works, draft lottery luck is as important as who coaches the team.

Joe reply to Ryan F on Oct 7 at 16:58

I typically believe in improving my team in trades, rather than them getting worse.

MANY Sixer fans believe the opposite.

And I'm the crazy one...

I like Gortat. I think Dalembert was better though probably.

Mike P reply to Joe on Oct 7 at 17:38

Well Thorns first trade was pretty damn good.

Lets hope he can make something else happen with what little chips we have.

I'm down for taking a ride on the 25 win coaster if it means like 2 or 3 years of top 5 picks.

Then we can get competitive enough to at least make it to the second round of the playoffs regularly.

Sixers single-game tickets are on sale today. Last night's showing sure made me want to rush out and buy them.

I'd say the attendance is going to drop again this season.

1. It's certainly okay to be concerned about this team as a whole this season; it's pretty clear they won't be able to guard any team with size. You could see that just from looking at the roster, but these games are confirming that. Is it okay to be concerned about Turner? Maybe.

2. I don't know if Cousins will be a truly great player - I doubt it actually - but certainly he can be as good as an Al Jefferson, and that's something. It was very obvious that he was the second biggest talent in this draft. I mean, you have one guy who took three years to dominate a conference that didn't have a single other NBA player in it, essentially, took two years to even become the best player on a team that had no NBA talent on it, largely dominated by being about four inches taller than most anyone who guarded him, and then you have Cousins, who as a freshman was so good that he displaced an established lottery pick, Patterson, from his role, and led a team with six NBA players in scoring. And arguably was more valuable to his team than the best point guard prospect since Chris Paul. Has teriffic size for his position and all kinds of moves. Is a great rebounder. And the red flags are, what exactly, that sometimes he gets angry and commits technical fouls? Is this guy even half as temperamental as Rasheed Wallace, who unquestionably was an asset to his teams?

Sheed was unquestionably an asset to one of his teams. And with Sheed there wasn't the concern that he'd Eddy Curry on you. Cousins' red flags weren't just anger management.

Tray reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 13:48

You're worried about him because of his body fat percentage in the combine? Cousins is a competitor; Curry never was. It's not like Curry's a good guy with an eating problem, he's just never given a damn. Nobody questions Cousins's desire to win.

You're looking at the symptom, not the cause. He's lazy.

ANother coke please

"Desire to win" whatever that means. I don't know many athletes with a desire to lose

Cousins has had the following things question

  • Coachability

  • Dedication

  • Attitude

Those are in no particular order, but please don't make it like Cousins has no red flags coming into the draft. Don't make it like he was the third pick and it was stupid that the sixers picked turner (especially based on pre-season jesus christmas already) because two other teams took guys before someone drafted Cousins.

Cousins was probably universally considered at least the second most talented player in the draft, but there's a lot that requires you to be a successful NBA player if you don't work to maximize that talent.

I think Cousins could thrive in the same tuype of setting Sheed did. A place where he is called upon to be a good player but in no way a team leader.

Cousins would be great on a team with other stars who have good leadership qualities (say OKC, LA, Bos.) I worry about Cousins on a team where he is asked to be "the man."

I think people are going over board with effusive praise for the thunder. Good leadership skills? None of them have been in the league long enough (in my opinion) to establish that

Durant is young, but IMO a great leader on and off the court. He even reaches out to other young players (like Turner) to give them guidance in terms of how to adapt to the NBA. May not be a huge rah-rah type guy, but definitely a leader. Can't say enough about the guy.

Mike P reply to GoSixers on Oct 7 at 17:47

Ha, that team is light years above most of the NBA chemistry wise. Durant is in the gym CONSTANTLY and see the rest of the team as family.

If Durant was in Philly he'd be treated like a god by the city.

GREAT points. I wasn't in favor of Cousins, but the more I think about it.... the less I want to talk about it.

Quite Rate 'em:

10: HOF level Play (Lebron)
9: All Star level (Bosh)
8: Top 6 at position (Granger)
7: Above average starter (JRich)
6: Average starter or top bench (Crawford)
5: Serviceable starter, solid role player (Corey Brewer)
4: NBA level role player (Flip Murray)
3: Marginal NBA player (Jason Smith)
2: D-League (Plaisted- who started last night)
1: No business playing pro-basketball

Give me their current level and most probable outcome:

The majority of the team currently sits at level 4 I would say

I guess Iguodala is at least an 8 cause Granger just ain't better then him :)

Holiday will probably be a 7 but it's unknown as of now

Won't rank Turner yet

tk76 reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 12:06

Current / most likely future

Jrue: 6.5/7.5 (NBA loaded w/ promising PG's)
Iguodala: 8/8
Thad: 5/6.5
Brand: 5.5/5.5
Hawes: 4/5.5

Lou: 5.5/6.5
Turner: 4.5/7.5 (5 if you let him dominate the ball)
Speights: 5.5/7
Meeks: 4/5
Brackins: 4/5.5
Noci: 4/4
Songalia: 3/3
Kapono: 3.5/3.5
Battie: 2.5/2.5
Plaisted: 2/2.5

I honestly forgot Brand was on the team when I did the rankings, I can go with 5.5-6 based on your rating system

Current/Most likely

Iguodala 8/8
Jrue 6/8
Thad 4.5/4.5
Brand 6/6
Hawes 4/4
Lou 5.9/5.9 (not a starter, but very good off the bench in the right situation)
Turner 5/6.5
Speights 5/7
Meeks 4/4.5

Everyone else is 3 or less.

tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 12:32

So looking at this season you take the current level of the roster then factor in how the roster is constituted (very poorly with overlapping strengths and weaknesses) and the coaching (good.)

Makes me look at my 35 game projection and its hard to justify.

You're considered a pessimist by a lot of "experts" too.

I thought 35 was optimistic but I'm used to being considered a pessimist.

tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 12:37

I have no idea where all of these 40W projection come from? Doesn't a 40W team have to be able to secure defensive rebounds?

Its like saying a team can be near .500 without any starting pithing or with a marginal quarterback.

mo_speezy reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 13:41

From generally a huge homer and someone who's followed this team religiously over the past 3 years - I have never been more pessimistic about the Sixers than I am after watching last night's game. And that includes during the middle of last year's shit show. At this point I would be shocked if they improve on last year's win total, shocked.

Nothing productive to contribute, just had to vent.

johnrosz reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 13:45

It's almost like Stefanski heard rumblings about being stripped of his duties, and had to get in one more team imploding trade before it was all said and done. Hawes seems like the anti-Collins player to me. I have no idea how this guy is going to get minutes under DC.

If they want ET to get comfortable, why don't they run some sets for him? Right now he's just running around out there trying to get open, but he really has no idea where to go and when.

jsmoove reply to johnrosz on Oct 7 at 14:23

You actually just answered your own question about Evan. If they do run some sets for him, he CAN'T get open, he only tries as you said. That's why Collins is masking him by playing him at backup point, imo. If he had, in fact, shown something to the coaching staff up to this point, don't you think he would have started last night at either the 2 or 3 with Iguodala and Brand being out? Meaning moving Thad to start at the 4.

Since I'm in a fatalistic mood, consider this.

Over the past three seasons, the Sixers record has probably been artificially good. Last year, their best two players didn't miss a single game. The previous two years, their three best players didn't miss a single game.

How unbelievably horrible would this team have been if any of those guys had missed significant time?

johnrosz reply to Brian on Oct 7 at 13:47

You shouldn't be that upset, the Yankees survived Sabathia's clunker somehow. Are you ready to throw the Collins effect (+10 wins to each new team he coaches) out the window?

To be fair, Collins has never taken over a team that had less talent than the season before he arrived. That's the case with this Sixers team.

See, now you owe me a coke

Talent Talent Talent

The collins effect (as you seem to think it should be called) is dependent on talent.

This team has less talent than the year before, so whywould they improve 10 games

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Oct 7 at 18:34

Because they've gotten past the Eddie Jordan effect

Which is grossly and vastly over rated in my opinion.

And they still have less talent

johnrosz reply to GoSixers on Oct 7 at 20:35

I don't know if the level of ineptitude that was the Eddie Jordan era is even measurable

If we're lucky, the Eddie Jordan effect will cancel out losing Dalembert's defense. I don't think we're particularly lucky, though.

Its not so much comparing coaching effect to Sam effect. Its the fact that Sam was the only player who can give you interior defense and rebounding.

There were games against elite bigs where Sam manned up and gave the Sixers a chance of winning. But with their current bigs those games will be a joke.

It is worse to lose an average player at a position of abject weakness then to loose a good player at a position of relative strength.

We got lucky this year in the lottery, but that's the exception, for sure. We can't even get lucky when we get the #1 pick AND take a player who turns out to be great. We got Iverson, who's probably the most flawed great player ever.

Watch the possession at the 1:00 mark.

Hawes is so ball-friendly, all this other stuff just doesn't matter.

The play at 4:45 is the one that got him benched for the rest of the game. Or that was when he left the game due to a sore back, if you're inclined to believe b.s.

I'm inclined to believe that the doughy white boy got any injury - yes

I'm not one to use profanity, but is it any surprise what acronym comes out of the simple observation "Spencer Hawes is terrible"?

S***, I think you are onto something. Good observational skills.

EVan Is Lousy
Thad Under Rebounds Dependably
Collins Uses Nonsense Talent
Andre Scores Sporadically

Which would surprise you more, 30 or 40 wins?

Me? 40, since I personally believe the team is worse than last year and some other teams in their own division got better.

40 might give me a coronary.

More likely to be a Sixer next year?

Melo or Fab Melo :)

If Fab is able to score inside of 17 feet, he's not welcome in Rod Thorn's organization.

To me the biggest red flag regarding Turner is Collins moving Iggy and Thad to 2 and 3 instead of 3 and 4. Completely opposite of what he said before.

These quotes are all from Collins' first Press conference:

*To me when Andre [Iguodala] is a two and Thaddeus [Young] is a three, they are both out of position. To me Thaddeus [Young] is a four and Andre [Iguodala] is a three. Those two guys play very well together, they’ve won 41 games, they got out on the floor, they ran the open court and played to their strengths. I thought last year it just didn’t fit for them.

*Andre Iguodala should be an all-league defensive player at small forward. I talked to Phil Jackson yesterday before the game and he was raving about how well Andre Iguodala plays against Kobe Bryant. He said, ‘that young guy has a lot of skill.’

*Q: What do you need to make Andre Igudoala take that next step?

Collins: “I want him to think about being a first-team all-league defender at the three spot. I think the three-spot is his best spot and I think he has an advantage there in speed.


Its pretty amazing looking back at those quotes. It doesn't make me want to jump of the Ben Franklin Bridge just yet, but it does concern me that Collins has done a complete 180 after watching Turner in Summer league and camp.

Here is the link to the whole presser:

I wouldn't worry about something Collins said when he had coached zero practices of the sixers even involving two of the three players. It was stupid of him to make those statements probably without having at least one practice

Well safe to say Collins was wrong. Its just unclear which instance he was wrong:)

You really think Jrue will be a top 6 point guard in the league, Brian? I think it's safe to say that he'll never be as good as Wall, Paul, and Williams. Rose will more likely than not have a better career than him, as will Rondo. That leaves him to compete with Curry, Westbrook, Collison, Devin Harris, Lawson, Brandon Jennings, and Jameer Nelson. Hence, I think it far more likely than not that he won't be a top 6 point guard.

I don't think it's safe to say anything about anyone who has zero nba games under his belt and has to share the first couple years of his career in a back court with Gilbert Areanas

Tray reply to GoSixers on Oct 7 at 18:47

Arenas will slide into a bench role if he causes problems. They're not going to let Arenas screw this up.

Yeah, they've been real firm with Arenas to this point, haven't they.

Curry, Westbrook, Collison, Devin Harris, Lawson, Brandon Jennings, and Jameer Nelson.

Yes, I think Jrue will be a better point guard than those guys. I think Curry's more of SG than a PG. Westbrook can't shoot. I like Collison, but he's pretty old (according to your logic yesterday, you should hate him). Never have been a fan of Devin Harris. Lawson is too old, too short, doesn't make enough plays. Jennings is a gunner. Nelson is a terrible PG, imo. Good player, but a terrible PG.

I don't think it's a lock that Rose has a better career than Jrue either. He doesn't defend and can't shoot.

There will also be a bunch of other hot shot PG's entering the league over the next 4-5 years. That's why I went with a rating of 7.5 (between above average but not quite top 6.)

Tray reply to Brian on Oct 8 at 0:45

Collison actually had a great rookie season though. Perhaps if we'd drafted him I'd doubt him but he's already proven quite a lot. And yeah, I think Wall is a lock for the top four. He's certainly, I'll tell you this much, a lock to be one of the best scoring point guards in the game, and he's much more of a passer than people like Marbury, Baron Davis, Steve Francis, Tyreke Evans, Arenas, Iverson.

Oh, and saying Wall is a lock for the top four is ridiculous.

Statman, Same acronym that results from the truism "Sam hesitates in traffic." Call it an even swap.

Except that it's not an even swap, Sam is much much better overall than Hawes

And it's not even close

Not even close?

Per 36:
SD - 11.1 p 0.7 a 11.4 r 2.7 b
SH - 13.7 p 2.5 a 8.6 r 1.0 b

And Sam's goofiness/flake/distraction quotient is significant but unquantifiable as opposed to Hawes's x factor in that regard at present.

Hawes stats compiled at ages 19-21; Sam's at ages 20-28.

I'd say cumulative talents are closer than "Sam's Club" would like to admit. Hard for me to believe that he accumulated fans.

Sam last yr per 36 (because I done't care about his numbers averaged over 8 years):
11.3pts, 13.3reb, 2.6blks

For guys playing regular minutes, the 5rd best per minute rebounder in the NBA and 3rd best by rebounding rate, 6th best blocked shots/36.

So truly elite rebounder and shot blocker. Arguably one of the better man to man defenders against elite bigs.

While Hawes is statistically the worst post defender in the NBA, and a below average rebounder and shot blocker.

I'm glad Hawes can pass and shoot a little bit- but those are not actually needs from the center position on this team.

I'm glad Sam is gone. But it stinks that the players left on the team are amongst the worst interior defenders in the NBA.

Hawes was part of the worst interior defensive team in the NBA last year. And he will be again this year. And it will be no coincidence :)

jjg, read this short article comparing Hawes and Dalemberts defense using Synergy data. It really breaks down their individual strengths and weaknesses:


Heres a small exerpt:

"Post-up plays constituted 40 percent of Dalembert's defensive possessions, and 45 percent of Hawes'. Dalembert allowed opponents to score 0.87 points per possession. Hawes allowed 0.97 ppp. Dalembert fouled more frequently but forced almost twice as many turnovers, and held opponents to 43.7 percent shooting in the post vs. 48.4 percent for Hawes."

And a more in depth breakdown including this conclusion:
\"But in total, it's not good for Spencer. The data suggests Hawes is among the worst defenders in the league. Nearly half his defensive assignments last season came in the post, where he's below average. Another fifth of his plays came in isolation, where he's disastrous. He has shown promise in chasing shooters out to the perimeter and in defending the pick and roll -- two important elements of big man defense -- but there is so much work to be done it's hard to figure out where to even start."


jjg reply to tk76 on Oct 7 at 21:48

Thanks for read. Interesting breakdown but Sactown writer lost me at "massive defensive upgrade" as there is NOTHING massive about Sam Dalembert's game except perhaps his predictable unpredictability. Sam is a better lane defender, rebounder and shot blocker/alterer than Hawes, no doubt. But he gets lost or lazy in extending his presence more than is talked about. The offensive end of his play is obviously offensive. I'm delighted that he's no longer a Sixer. 6'11" clown. Doesn't love the game.

Anonymous reply to jjg on Oct 7 at 22:13

You're wrong.

Sameuel Dalembert is one of the best defensive rebounders in the game. Look it up. Your perception because of his flaws is what's wrong. Dalembert IS a massive defensive upgrade over Hawes and thus Hawes is a massive defensive downgrade comapred to Dalembert. His offensive improvement over Sam better make up for Sam's defense, but so far it seems unlikely since he's more foul prone than Sam ever was

Anonymous reply to jjg on Oct 7 at 22:15

Well if you only want to look at counting stats, and per 36 minutes, that's fine. But since neither player plays 36 minutes, look at contribution and open your mind a little and look at other things that tell a greater story.

If you think hawes is an improvement or even equal to Sam defensively, you're wrong.

deepsixersuede on Oct 7 at 19:22

Should the coach be questioned for sitting Iggy and Elton when this was a likely result? Tk, Fab Melo looks like the only good defensive center in the draft. That player may have to be gotten from a team in the league rather than drafting him.

Yes, because it's very important not to lose pre-season games

The lakers are fools for playing kobe only six minutes

deepsixersuede reply to GoSixers on Oct 7 at 19:31

Their minutes can be limited in practice and preseason games. Koby has a bad knee; I am just saying does this loss set them back confidence wise ?

This team really shouldn't have any confidence to begin with.

Sitting Iguodala and Brand may have been the only smart thing Collins did this week. Iguodala played a lot of hoops at the worlds and Brand is getting up there. No need for them to play in back-to-back games in the preseason.

johnrosz on Oct 7 at 20:43

I could really use a write up from someone particularly in the know about projecting talent at the NBA level.(DBodner perhaps) I think a lot of folks need to be talked off the ledge about the nightmarish start that Turner has had.

Derek contributes at Liberty Ballers- and he has been known to take requests.

I know I do.

Hell yes its time to be concerned. Unfortunately for all of those who said Turners lack of elite athleticism was going to hurt him, Props to you guys. Turner just doesnt look like a very good player at this level. He may be serviceable...but damn you certainly want more than that from the number 2 pick. Funny how no one wanted Demarcus Cousins and he would have been PERFECT for this team. I'll be the first one to say that I am no talent scout and I like most wanted turner. However the guys that do this for a living should have known better. I guess this is why the Sixers have been mediocre or worse for almost a decade. Bad evaluators of talent, bad evaluators of coaches, bad organization overall. Sad.

johnrosz on Oct 7 at 21:01

The only reason I still have some faith in Turner despite what I've seen on the court thus far...I trust DiLeo as a talent evaluator.

Dileo is a gentleman, but he's overrated as an NBA talent evaluator. Has been in voting/influence seat for a long time. Check Sixers results over last 2 decades. Proof in pudding.

Mike P reply to jjg on Oct 7 at 21:29

I was saying that last year and everyone was mad.

To say DiLeo has done a good job with where we've picked in the past decade is a pretty false.

It's really only been Iggy and Jrue.

The 2007 (the one with Thad) was the really horrible one. We could have filled our entire rotation with all the misses in that draft.

Late to the thread, but just one thing about ET: Any player who can get to the line at a good clip is probably going to be just fine in the long run. It tends to be a very good sign.

Beyond that, I'm pretty much not going to make any huge judgments. The interior probably ends up being as bad as we assumed and there will be guys who step up and fall back during a year of trying to find themselves again.

Wow, I'm pretty surprised how down people are on Turner considering it's only been a couple games so far. I'd like to give the guy a little more time to get adjusted to things at the NBA level. He's learning a new offensive system and how he's gonna fit into it, that takes a while for most rookies. A lot of guys who go on to be excellent players struggle quite a bit in their first season.

If you watched Turner a decent amount in college, you see that he's not the type of player who will dunk over a center, but he can score in various ways and contribute in every area of the game. All the times I watched him play the last couple years, there was no doubt he was the best player on the floor.

Right now he's in the process of learning how to put his stamp on the game offensively without necessarily "controlling" it. That kind of change can take some getting used to. He doesn't look any less quick or athletic when compared with the other players on the court, he just looks like he doesn't know the correct spot to get to all the time, and when he does get the ball, he's rushing things too much. Pair that with a couple bad shooting nights and it dosen't look good.

But that learning curve is certainly not indicative of the player he was, is, or can be. Turner was pick #2 for a reason, cause he's an all-around solid player and a hard worker with the potential to become a number one scoring option, I'd say let's give him some time to realize that before concluding that it can't be done.

johnrosz reply to Chunky Soup on Oct 7 at 23:54

Thank you. I agree with everything you just said. What you've said is a perfectly rational statement and a fair explanation for what has gone on thus far. It's just hard to be rational when the Sixers have been inept for so long.

Today Cousins had a much worse game (fouled out, 15 points on 14 shots, just 3 boards). Blake Griffin played great, 18 and 13 on just 7 shots (though he was guarded by Jason Thompson and Carl Landry), and Al-Farouq Aminu, the epitome of hopelessly raw "you'll have to wait on him" talent in this year's draft, now has one more good preseason game than Turner's had. 17 and 8, 6 offensive boards. Actually made two three-pointers. He was absolutely awful in his previous outing.

76ciology on Oct 8 at 1:02

About ET's struggle:

I don't think that Turner need elite athleticism to be an all-star, because he already have good size advantage over opposing SGs. He doesn't have elite size to be a superstar, but I think he's got pretty good advantage size-wise over his opposing SGs to get him around 20ppg. You can look at guys like Tyreke and Joe Johnson for example.

What Turner needs to learn is to improve his perimeter shooting and how to effectively use his size. Looking at his bball IQ and work ethic, it's possible. Just look at how Caron Butler, who has lesser length and athleticism,but was able to get his numbers.

Worse comes to worst, put Turner at PG then Jrue at SG. Jrue should be able to outrun his defender playing off ball, and he seems to be a pretty good shooter compared to ET and Iggy. It's pretty much what's happening, when both guys are on the court at the same time.

I think what is more concerning is EB42. It seems that him averaging double digit rebounds and have 1.5 to 2bpg is pretty far fetch. I think he's more focus on contributing on the offensive end of the floor rather on the defensive end. And if that's the case, other guys like Iggy or Hawes needs to step up their game on the defensive end to solidify our rebounding and team defense.

smh1980 on Oct 8 at 1:25

I'd like to look at expectations through past AP players of the year:

Evan Turner - Hasn't looked good yet.
Blake Griffin - Hurt last year so this will be his rookie season
Tyler Hansbrough - # 13 pick last year, will probably start someday but never make an All-Star game
Kevin Durant - Future MVP
J.J. Redick - Took a few years but has found a niche in Orlando
Andrew Bogut - Decent big man in the NBA
Jameer Nelson - Not a top 10 point guard
David West- averaged 8 points/game for his first 3 years
Jay Williams- Loves motorcycles
Shane Battier - decent all around player
Kenyon Martin - decent big in his prime

There aren't too many all stars in this linup above. The college game is totally different from the NBA. We won't know what we have until later this year.

Everyone was on the band wagon during the draft. They said he has a very high basketball IQ so he will figure it out. It's too late to change our pick.

76ciology reply to smh1980 on Oct 8 at 1:51

Yes, there are a lot of difference on the style the game is being played in college and in the NBA. But the thing here is, unlike with guys like Hansbrough and Reddick, Turner wasn't a system player. He was actually playing NBA style basketball during his sophomore and junior years.

It's really more on the level of defenders he's facing in the pros. Where the defenders are longer and faster that what he's used to during college.

That is actually a pretty good list and is in line with my expectations from Turner.

Of the list Hansbrough, Reddick, Nelson, Battier and West had questionable ceiling (for various SERIOUS reasons - size, athleticism, system play...) before they were even drafted. Mostly, that led to them them slipping in the draft.

That leaves Turner in the company of Griffin, Durant, Bogut, Williams and Martin. Turner may not have the supreme athleticism that some of these guys have, but he is not as bad as some of the other guys and he does have good size for his position (similar to Bogut for example). Of these latter group Williams suffered a career-ending injury before we could find out what he actually is and Bogut and Martin were/are pretty good when not injured. If it weren't for the injuries it's safe to say they would've been perennial allstars (3-4 times). That leaves Durant as an MVP caliber player and Turner and Griffin as the rookies (with Griffin suffering a major injury setback as well).
If he becomes what these guys are, i'll be fine with it. After all that's what you can realistically expect from a No2 pick especially in a weak draft.

The troubling part with Turner for me has always been his injury history (the reason i was in the Favors camp) and i'm even more worried now when i see how many of these players have serious injury issues.

Rodney Buford on Oct 8 at 10:48

The silver lining is that performances like that put pressure on the players and the coaches for next time out. It makes a hard practice easier to administer. These guys should feel twinges of guilt, but for goodness sake it was the second night of a back to back against the NBA runner-up that was sporting a full lineup. Some of you guys come across like you're on the rag.

How will they react to that pressure?

It's not that they lost, it's not even that they got blown out. You expected both of those things. It's that what they were playing didn't even resemble mediocre basketball, and every single fear I've had about this team was on full display. Not against the starting lineup, either, against the third stringers who will be playing in Europe somewhere come November.

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