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Collins Gets First Sixers Win

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johnrosz on Oct 13 at 2:36
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This season is going to be all about growing pains. Gotta look for a few positives. Big Baby may be a middling PF, but he's also 300 lbs. DC didn't really put him in a position to succeed there...I thought Thad showed some nice help D on a few occasions. One in particular where he doubled, got a steal, dribbled up the floor and kicked to Kapono for an open 3.

Pretty miraculous to see Lou Williams attempting to play D. He still looks like he has trouble fighting through screens, but that's never going to change unless Iggy shows him where the weight room is.

Although I'm trying to be positive, the 0 rebounds from EB is pretty alarming. Maybe he shouldn't have lost all that weight. The girth may have been the only advantaged the undersized, unathletic PF had in the paint. At this point would you even put him in your starting lineup?

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Joe reply to johnrosz on Oct 13 at 7:35
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He isn't a undersized PF and that is a fact.

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johnrosz reply to Joe on Oct 13 at 18:13
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No, you're pretty wrong about that. He has freakishly long arms to compensate for his lack of size but it's ok I forgive you

We could barely beat the Celtics bench.

All aboard the Harrison Barnes train! WOO WOO.

After watching that, I think I've got better things to do this year then watching the Sixers play horrible basketball every game in front of 5000 fans every night.

I will be watching for trades and losses though. Now everyone is on the table!

Looking like a 30 win season. Im going to set the losing margin for the home opener against the heat at 30 points.
At this point---and I wont waiver no matter how well they do during the rest of the preseason --I will take the over. The Sixers will lose by more than 30 points against the heat in their home opener and they will be booed heavily at multiple times during the game(which is retty rare for a home opener). Im not so sure if the over/under were 50 points I wouldnt take the over.

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Mike P reply to Gdog on Oct 13 at 7:40
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I think more people will be cheering for the Heat then booing the Sixers.

Our team has no post play on either end of the court. Even with all the emphasis on guard play in the league now, the best teams almost always run everything through some big men.

We have zero big men in any capacity. Our wings all seem to do the same thing and our best offensive player might be Lou Williams who can't play a lick of defense.

Should our Starting line up be Speights/Thad/Iggy/Lou/Jrue?

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Joe reply to Mike P on Oct 13 at 7:58
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What does more emphasis on guard play mean?

I hear it so often on TV now and I always wonder what they mean. Does it mean guards shoot more now than in the past?

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Mike P reply to Joe on Oct 13 at 8:04
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The rules have been tweaked that good guards can run amok.

Like Tony Parker scoring like 60 points all by getting into the paint.

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Joe reply to Mike P on Oct 13 at 9:27
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So you think the meaning is that guards(PGs, SGs) score more now in the current NBA than historically and bigs(PFs, Cs) score less now than in the past? How many years ago would you say it was different? Around the time handchecking was taken away?

If I wanted to test this, would it just be looking at the points scored from players at those positions now relative to scoring previously? Or is there more to it?

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Mike P reply to Joe on Oct 13 at 9:56
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Are we being serious?

I never know.

The rules made it easy for guards to score. That's all. Bigs who can dominant still rule the land but there really hasn't been one since Duncan started to decline.

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tk76 reply to Mike P on Oct 13 at 10:05
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Yeah, great bigs are still dominant- but they are few and far between. Most teams are lucky if they have a good defensive big, let alone one who can dominate on both sides of the ball.

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Oct 13 at 10:07
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Look back at guys like Ewing and Hakeem. They were not even the best players in the league, but they would hurt you on both ends. I can't think of any players close to that right now- except maybe guys like Duncan and KG- who are on their last legs.

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Mike P reply to tk76 on Oct 13 at 10:32
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You are making me think of us passing on Cousins now.

:(

So not only did we give up one of our only trading chips for a stiff and a guy who plays the same position as our best player, but we give up that very same guy to the team that took the player that we passed on.

Ugh. There is nothing we can do anyway. We don't run the team. Oh well.

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Joe reply to Mike P on Oct 13 at 10:31
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I'm being serious. You made a claim. I'm trying to get the exact details of the claim you made because it is a common claim.

I'm not sure about the claim. In fact I'm curious about it. I'm trying to get a testable claim from you that I can go and test(if I have access to the data) and come back to you with a report.

If you claim is invalid, then it would seem that the game isn't more guard-centric, but rather the idea is being perpetuated for some reason.(not sure why, probably because of this search to fit people into the Jordan brand molding)

Does that make sense?

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Mike P reply to Joe on Oct 13 at 10:35
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It's just easier for guards to do what they want.

That's all.

The 5 best players in the league are perimeter players now.

Kobe, Durant, Bron, Wade, Paul.

This is also compounded by the lack of true dominant big men in the league now.

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Joe reply to Mike P on Oct 13 at 10:47
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You aren't supporting your statements.

And Lebron plays SF/PF, not a guard. Durant is a SF. Kobe is not top 5. Dwight Howard is a top 5 NBA player. That is obvious.

Is it "guards" or "perimeter play"?

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tk76 reply to Joe on Oct 13 at 10:51
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The game is not initiated through the post like it once was.

And Lebron plays SF/PF, not a guard. Durant is a SF. Kobe is not top 5. Dwight Howard is a top 5 NBA player. That is obvious.

When asking people to support their statements, maybe you should do the same.

Kobe is not a top 5 player?

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Mike P reply to Joe on Oct 13 at 10:59
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Who cares.

You win. You win whatever you are trying to win here.

Guards, wings, perimeter players, they have it easier now with the rule changes/lack of hand checking. That's all.

If you have a PG who can penetrate at will you can go far in the league today. Look at Boston and how Rondo carried them through the playoffs.

Or just go watch Rose and Rondo take over an entire season in the Bulls/Celtics match up from 2 years ago.

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Mike P reply to Mike P on Oct 13 at 11:01
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Series, not an entire season.

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deepsixersuede on Oct 13 at 7:35
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It looked to me like Thad was determined to attack the rim everytime down which means nobody in our starting lineup was spotting up and stretching the floor. We were better with Kapono, the no pumpfaking Kapono, out there. When the season starts and real teams start to defend we will have trouble scoring and may turn Jrue into a jump shooter. I hate to say it but Hawes or Spieghts or Thad, pick your poison, has to become a 2nd spot up threat to make our current starting team effective.

Do you really think that is going to make this starting team effective?

And even if it does... the swap is going to mean exactly what? Speights plays 5 more minutes and Thad 5 less? Do you think that can possibly have an effect greater than a win or 2 over the course of the season? Playing Lebron James for 5 random minutes in pace of Thad isn't going to make this team win more than a few games...

The team sucks. The good news? There is a 0% chance they win 40 games. They also may be the odds on favorite for the #1 pick right now as well.

"Emphasis on guard play" means recognition of no true, reliable big man.

Elton Brand. Elephant in the room. Organization continues to present him as a legitimate winning inside player. It's time to face colossal signing mistake and move on. It appears he's a basketball player ... until the ball goes up. Mr. Horizontal, and lumbering at that.


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Joe reply to jjg on Oct 13 at 10:47
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And where is the evidence?

Evidence of what in particular? If you're talkin' Brand's poor play, it's on videotape since his arrival.

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Jess Sayan on Oct 13 at 9:28
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The positive: we actually have a coach with a pulse. He snapped and they responded with defensive intensity. An intensity I haven't seen for two seasons when erasing 20 point deficits was our calling card. Forget the players. We have a coach!

Some coaches who pulsate entertainingly are ones whose impulses dominate under stress to their detriment. Did Collins' blowing up motivate or were the Celtics' JVs relaxed at point of turnabout? Probably a little of both.

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Jess Sayan reply to jjg on Oct 13 at 9:57
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The effort is what changed. The 2nd c's shouldn't have been in it at all, but they were up by 11 and lost by 11. We outscored them by 10 in 4th without Iggy or Brand(this may have helped). At this point the team doesn't have a leader. Collins can't let them go flat as they tend to do. I find this to be a refreshing change.

I looked at NBA TV listings and could not find tonight's game. I know it is on in Canada, so it will probably be streamed somewhere, but was expecting it to be on NBA TV.

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tk76 reply to Statman on Oct 13 at 10:35
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That schedule has 3 games all on at the same time.

I think if you have Dish they have a free league pass preview that shows all of the televised games. But on Comcast ion Philly they only have NBA TV, and the game is not showing up in the listings (instead they list the Miami/NO game.)

Okay, here's something interesting. My local TV listings say that the Sixers-Raptors game is being televised on one of the League Pass channels (but not NBA TV). Different cable systems treat the NBA preseason differently, but it might be worth checking to see if yours has it (mine won't necessarily show it, even if it's in the listings). If it's on, it will be free.

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tk76 reply to Statman on Oct 13 at 10:39
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http://www.nba.com/nbatv/schedule/

No Sixers. So looks like its only on in Canada.

Ugh. Time Warner aired a free preview game on their league pass channel last night, maybe they're doing the same tonight. Otherwise, hopefully we can find a link somewhere.

BTW, Sam out 4-6 wks with a Hammy.

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Oct 13 at 10:12
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Sorry, wrong injury, but is out.

Yeah, saw that. There goes his consecutive games played streak. BTW, we'd be better defensively if he was on the bench in a bad suit than we are right now.

My point exactly. Sixers increased due to coach reaming and the boosted replacements' easy-spot hustle; Celts decreased due to natural droop/lack of respect for what they had seen.

Can understand that you'd see the coach's drama and apparent swing effect as refreshing, but you don't beat good teams, in the long haul, with a kamikaze, extended defensive approach. With a few adjustments, Frenzy Village becomes Toast City when competing against strong teams.

Sam planned it. Perfect logistics. Kings get off to surprisingly good start. He enters a packed ARCO Arena in a couple of months, famously and mysteriously, to a thunderous welcoming ovation before displaying his very mixed bag of wares.

Maybe he who shall not be named had a point about Jrue's psyche and nate robinson

Heh. I guess we're in for it when we face Orlando as well, then. Duhon is a mindf*cker.

Hey, this team was going nowhere, slowly, even though they won the #2 pick and hired a 'better' coach (that remains to be seen in my opinion if Collins is the great coach everyone says he is, so far this team seems no better defensively (individually) than they were the past couple seasons) and people who were screaming about 500 and the playoffs were off their rockers from the jump.

You have to laugh at yourself because you'd cry your eyes out if you didn't

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Jack Straw on Oct 13 at 11:15
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They needed to get a win and that's what they got, albeit against Boston's B squad. Still, it was pretty disheartening to see our starting front court combine for one rebound, and lose the overall battle of the boards to a group of back ups.

Our starting unit still has its issues. They really didn't start playing their game offensively until Lou/Kapono entered in the 2nd half. Lou did a phenomenal job all night of collapsing the defense and actually created shots for his teammates. I think Jrue/Evan/Dre are talented and smart enough to improve, but the lack of shooting in our starting unit is still painfully obvious.

You can see that Turner has a solid all around floor game, but he just seemed way too passive last night for a #2 overall pick. I thought he had some opportunities to create and he just gave the ball up to a teammate. I'd like to see him be more assertive on the offensive end. Frankly, we need him to be.

The positives: We forced turnovers and got out in transition pretty consistently in the 2nd half. They certainly won the deflection battle and were able to disrupt a lot of passes to ignite their running game.

We shot 10-12 (83%) from downtown. Needless to say, we won't get used to this, but we do have a few long range makers on the roster this year and it good to see us actually outshoot a team from deep for a change.

Holiday looked as though he re-discovered his confidence in the 4th quarter and finished with a decent overall line (sans the 6 fouls). It'd be encouraging to see him follow it up with a solid showing tonight.

Speights was in video game mode in the 2nd half and ate Erden's lunch. I heard Collins say after the game that he's about a 19 minute a game player right now, mentioning that he appeared to slow his pace in the final 2 minutes. Sounds like Collins is making it clear to Speights that he'll get pulled if/when he starts to get lazy.

E Snow is refreshing step forward from Pinkney/Salmi.

Nice writeup.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why Iguodala and Turner was so damned passive. They both had pretty favorable matchups the entire night, the team was struggling, why were they sitting back and letting Thad take so many shots?

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tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 13 at 12:23
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I guess maybe my expectations are too low, but I'm fine with what I'm seeing from Turner.

When he does instinctive things like crashing the boards or making the quick pass he looks great. But when he tries to run within the set offense he looks mechanical and unathletic. But so does Jrue (and Young.)

I think all of the young players are fighting through the same slog of trying to learn how to excel within a set offense. I don't think this is unusual for young players, and explains why most top teams are vet-laden (with the exception of superstar young players, whose talent is transcendent.)

If I had to guess, I'd say Jrue and Turner will adapt and thrive. You will see the same talent level they show in an open game start translating into more organized basketball. But Young I'm not so sure of. I honestly think the kid has never played organized basketball on the wing where real plays were run. I'm not sure he ever really picks it up to where he can play organized offense in an instinctual fashion- but he is just 22, so we should give him a chance.

Also, I think Collins lost Thad a bit in his flip-flopping him between "SF only" and now PF. Its never good to see a coach lose a players trust so early.

It's never good to see a coach change his mind so early either. Collins has already reversed himself multiple times. It doesn't bode well (to me) that he has a clear idea of his roster or clear plan on how to make it succeed, but he's really good at talking like he does

Sometimes wanting to talk, and wanting to give broadcasters/reporters information can bite you. I think that's at least part of what we're seeing from Collins right now. He's figuring things out and instead of making vanilla comments that don't really mean anything, he's sort of talking emotionally in that he's telling people where he's at right now.

It's OK to change course, especially as you gather information, but if you tell people about your thought process every step of the way, you're going to trip yourself up.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 13 at 12:44
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I certainly don't mind him adapting on the fly. But in Thad's case he made some statements after the game that suggests he has lost trust in the coach- since his role has been clearly defined- and then changed- three times now.

Had Collins simply told Thad he needs to learn the roster befoer he decides where Thad's best fit will be, and to expect to get some time at both PF and SF then I thing things would be a lot better right now.

Sort of like had he told Lou first he was the starting PG, then pulled the rug out and changed his role to bench assassin. That would have damaged the trust between player and coach at an early stage... but Collins handled that situation much better.

Overall Collins seems to be doing a good job. But he has apparently flubbed the Thad situation.

Overall Collins seems to be doing a good job. But he has apparently flubbed the Thad situation.

Yeah well, that fits right in with the organization ;)

Do you see Turner as being uncomfortable, or passive or what? I mean, he never really appeared at all last night, forget about disappearing. He had that one nice offensive play (the give and go w/ Thad), and he had a nice pass on the break, but other than that, the only clear memory I have of him from the game is losing Marquis Daniels on a cut.

Oh, and the air ball layup.

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Jess Sayan reply to Brian on Oct 13 at 16:45
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I think that was a dunk attempt and he loss the ball.

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tk76 reply to Brian on Oct 13 at 12:37
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I think we have to abandon the whole age 22/NBA ready mindset when evaluating Turner. Clearly it is a big jump for him and he's on a learning curve.

So looking back at previous rookies (Jrue and Young), they first looked horrible in Summer League, then showed short glimmers in the early regualr season, before finally looking at ease on the floor by the second half of their rookie years.

I remember Thad adn Jrue missing wide open lay-ups and looking completely mechanical and unable to do simple things like dribble. I see some of the same "plaing in a daze" out of Turner- but now at least he seems to be more in the flow. I haven't seen many glimpses yet of top level play- but it might be too early for that.

So right now I'm not looking so much for stand out positives as much as him looking like he belongs on the floor and not making terrible mistakes (too often.) But if we are not seeing signs of him stepping up his game as the season progresses it will be very concerning. Because it seems like the initial adjustment period takes a few months, and then he should be able to tap into his talent- whatever level that is.

Great points. A thought crossed my mind while reading Brian's disheartening post at the top: most of the guys on this team have never played on a well-organized professional or college team. Iguodala did at Arizona and a couple of years here, Kapono has. Anybody else? Brand maybe. There are a lot of bad habits to be changed, but if these players don't mesh, the bad habits will get worse. Are they just a bunch of mismatched parts? Would a lineup of Jrue, Lou, Iguodala, Speights & Young work? No rebounding. Turner at the 1, Lou, Iguodala, Brand, Speights? I'm struggling to come up with 5 guys who go together. Right now, I don't care if Jrue starts or not, I just want to watch a respectable team, even if they struggle.

Did Lou & Turner play together?

UCLA is pretty well organized, no? So Jrue did for one year, at least.

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Rich reply to Charlie H on Oct 13 at 17:55
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I think maybe for Lou and Thad (Paul Hewitt, yuck) that may be a problem, but outside of Iguodala (Arizona was pretty dysfunctional the last decade to me), they all played at solid colleges. Maybe Hawes too, but I don't know enough about Lorenzo Romar to make a judgment.

Jrue- UCLA, stable with Ben Howland, great defensive principles.
Turner- OSU, Thad Matta is a very prepared coach.
Brand- Duke, Coach K, say no more.
Speights- Florida, I don't think as highly of Billy D as most, but Speights went head-to-head with one of the best college team's ever. Has to count for something, right?

Now, as far as not being on a really well-prepared team in the pros, I'm with you.

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Rob_STC reply to Brian on Oct 13 at 15:52
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That was my comment about Turner in particular. He looks very tentative and unsure of himself.

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Jack Straw on Oct 13 at 14:03
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I agree with TK that we need to slightly recalibrate our expectations with Turner in regards to him stepping in and playing elite basketball from day 1. It will come, but he's clearly working through some challenges of learning the system and establishing a comfort zone within the offense, as well as adjusting to the game overall at the NBA level. I'm sure a little bit of nerves and pressure have something to do with it as well.

I still invest more in his 3 year college career than I do the Summer League and a few preseason games. His ability to score really isn't a huge concern of mine. You can at least take comfort in the fact that he's starting to fill up the other stat columns while showing some promising instincts on the boards and an ability to get to the free throw line. Once his role is defined and he finds his rhythm within the offense then I think we'll start to see him run wild. What nobody wants to accept is that it could take a month or two for him to get there.

Its also worth noting that every player on the team has struggled to perform well offensively with any consistency so far in the preseason. Turner isn't alone here, he's among friends.

Anyone who expected him to come in and play elite basketball from day 1 had unrealistic expectations to start with (in my opinion).

I just wonder how many people here had to make as huge a 'skill jump' when they went to a new job as the competition difference between the NCAA and the NBA.

The expectations seemed out of hand to start with, but I hope he has a strong psyche cause the few sixer fans in Philly who go to the games and talk to the idiots on the radio will be booing and badmouthing him from game 1

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Oct 13 at 14:48
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It's a big jump, but Wall, Cousins, Aldrich, Blake Griffin, Harangody, Luke Babbitt, Wesley Johnson, and Jordan Crawford (30 points last night) seem to be handling it pretty well. Basically, most of the polished rookies picked at the top of the draft are doing alright; rawer types like Favors, Aminu or George, or players expected to struggle like Hayward or Monroe aren't. It's not necessarily a discouraging sign, but I feel like most older wing prospects tend to pick things up pretty fast if they're any good.

None of them have played an NBA game yet so I don't know how they're 'handling' it well.

Griffin is a special case who had a whole extra year to prepare.

Maybe they're handling it better cause their fans (and organization) had more rational expectations of who the player was when they drafted them.

Jordan Crawford had 30 points in a pre season game and you think it matters?

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Tray reply to GoSixers on Oct 13 at 15:49
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Oh okay, if the preseason is meaningless then I guess we know absolutely nothing about Turner and how he's acclimating. Maybe he'll average 18 a night from the get-go. Who knows? And what in the world do the rational expectations have to do with anything? Cousins is averaging 28 points and 15 rebounds per 40 minutes right now because the fans didn't expect him to? Or that Wesley Johnson's ridiculous efficiency at the moment is a product of low expectations? Or are you actually trying to say that their performance just looks good in the context of the low expectations people had for them? Because that's obviously not true. Turner hasn't been very productive at all, has basically been a non-factor, and other rookies have been really productive. Not relative to expectations, just objectively the case.

Wesley Johnson's shooting may be efficient so far, but he's not playing a very efficient game. 1.7 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 2.67 to's.

Johnson's recent 16 in 19 min is pretty damn good. It's what you want from a SG. Kid can play. Doug liked him too.

1/8 for 3 points in 19 minutes is pretty damned bad.

Undisputably so. Frigid. Minnesotan. Happen's in life of an outside shooter. (Doug West & Wally Szczerbiak will back me up.) I bet his shot had consistent release
point and motion, including backspin, though.

Or you know, it's pre-season and everyone is going to look bad and good some nights and you shouldn't read anything into it any more than you should summer league cause it means virtually nothing


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