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Sixers vs. Knicks - Preseason Finale

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Jack Straw on Oct 20 at 18:19
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No Stoudemire, Gallinari, or Chandler for New York.

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Ryan F reply to Jack Straw on Oct 20 at 18:24
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We'll still get our asses handed to us.

Knicks starting lineup:
Anthony Randolph, Bill Walker, Timofey Mozgov, Toney Douglas and Raymond Felton your Knicks starting lineup…

Amar'e and Chandler out with coaches decision, Gallinari is doubtful with a sprained wrist.

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Tom Moore on Oct 20 at 19:01
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Are you here, Derek?

Yeah. I found my actual assigned seat today.

Is there a link online for the game?

Not sure if this is everywhere, but the game is showing on one of my League Pass channels. Check your cable listings. I'll post my observations later (will be watching the Phillies primarily).

Its on the usual sources... ATDHE, firstrow.

What are the chances the Sixers as a team shoot under 40% this season

Dare I say it...Battie looks like the Defender/REbounder we're looking for at center...??

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Joe reply to MikeW on Oct 20 at 19:36
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Perhaps he looks it.

He isn't, though. He hasn't been an average rebounder for some time. Over the past 4 years, he is like a 8 Reb per36. For reference Sammy, over the same period, was about 12.

The Sixers best rebounder is probably Speights and their best defender is probably Brand.

Sad state of affairs.

Battie is a horrible player without any real chance of being productive.(at least Brackins, Hawes, Speights, etc. are reasonably young) Don't get caught up thinking about him much.

I actually think Turner may be our best reobunder....which is bad, because he's not going to be in defensive rebounding position as much from the guard position.

Battie is a little bit being the tallest midget. Being the ONLY player really providing anything on the interior, he probably looks a little better than he is. He is playing better right now than I have seen him in the previous few years, but I'd be surprised if he's capable of keeping this up.

Yeah, I'm in agreement with you. I haven't watched Battie yet this year, but I find it hard to believe he even looks much better than the guy I saw in Orlando.

I tend to sometimes use the word "better" where "productive" should be. I was more saying that Speights will probably pull down the highest % of boards while on the court for this team this year. (or Hawes)

As for Turner being a better rebounder, I believe it to be possible. I'll have to see more of him though. Haven't caught more than 2 quarters of preseason thusfar.

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ItAintEZ on Oct 20 at 19:53
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how do you get the video at the top of the page to quit playing. Talk about annoying.

Is it playing audio? Anyone else having this issue?

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ItAintEZ reply to Brian on Oct 21 at 4:36
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plays audio somtimes and not others.

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ItAintEZ on Oct 20 at 19:58
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Starter looked pretty good on D but the subs are just horrible.

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general tso chicken on Oct 20 at 20:17
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Evan Turner=Kwame Brown.....The next guard to be the biggest BUST!!! Keith Van Horn, you are safe. Philly just found an even better replacement!! HAHAAHA!!!

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eddies' heady's on Oct 20 at 21:19
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Doesn't Evan Turner look like he should have been picked after Craig Brackins? Really.

I get so annoyed with the over-reaction.

Turner will come around. By the end of the season I can't wait to see people eating their words.

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deepsixersuede reply to Alvin on Oct 20 at 22:31
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I am not worried about Turner's skill, but what is between the ears has me befuddled. I hope his track record, adjusting after his first year at a new level, holds true because he plays real passive at times.

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eddies' heady's on Oct 20 at 22:53
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I mean, we took this kid with the 2nd pick. He's already what? 22 years old? Last year, the mantra was, that Ty Lawson had no 'upside' strictly because of his age of 22. So this year, Turner still has 'upside' at the same age? Is there a double standard here that we're missing? Or just blind optimism?

I've said before, he really doesn't do any one thing well. I don't care how many games he has/hasn't played, he will never come close to being a 'shooting guard', it's just not a role he is suited for. Just as Lou Williams isn't suited for a point guard role. He's never been known as an above par shooter and he isn't fleet-of-foot enough to create separation off screens/picks, not to mention he has no concept of playing off the ball.

Sure you need stars in this league to be successful, but you also have to have stars as role players. Meaning they are stars in the roles they are asked to play. Sort of like Andre Iguodala is, or even can be more of, if they would get him a true lead dog.

To have a career as a backup point guard (because let's admit he will never cut it as a starter at point in this league as he will get eaten alive on both ends), which is going to end up being his most suitable role, after being drafted with the 2nd overall pick is pretty alarming on many levels.

The term overreaction can just as well be labeled objective realism. If words were edible, let's just say my stomach's growling - loudly.

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deepsixersuede reply to eddies' heady's on Oct 20 at 23:07
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I don't think you can lump all #2 picks together just based on skill. I really believe, and our coach has commented on it, that what makes Evan a little slower to put up numbers is his personality. He has shown a lot of good things as far as assists and rebounds [ top 15 in the league preseason] I believe. But the " dominant scorer mode" is just gonna take longer to come because his personality is such that he seems to have to prove to himself that he belongs first and foremost. That is my take on it.

What were you saying about Jrue at this time last year?

Pretty much the exact same things, only every other word out of his mouth was Lawson.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Oct 21 at 0:23
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And remind me when Jrue became a better player than Lawson.

And the questions posed in the 1st paragraph still haven't been answered pertaining to the whole 'upside' thing...

...remind me when Jrue became a better player than Lawson.

Well, I wasn't there, but probably sometime in late August, 1989.

As for your questions, I'm not sure you quite understand the rules around here. When you ask irrational, condescending, hyperbolic or just downright annoying questions in the comments, no one is obligated to answer them.

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Joe reply to Brian on Oct 21 at 7:55
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Sorry but this is my obligatory "Lawson is the superior player" comment.

As much as I enjoy watching Jrue blah blah blah, Lawson is obviously superior statistically and it isn't close.

As for eddy, if you are drawing many conclusions now from a 5 game sample then good luck. I wish you well.

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tk76 reply to Joe on Oct 21 at 10:32
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Look at the last 30 games of last season...

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Oct 21 at 8:23
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Ha, more like no one won't answer them because it doesn't suit their argument. Those questions were nothing less than legitimate. Lawson flatlines at the same age but Turner has room for growth?

And to Joe: I've stated multiple times the opinion is not based off of his pro career (summer league and preseason).

1. I have NEVER criticized Lawson here or on any other board. I am a Lawson fan and I am a Jrue fan. The two are not mutually exclusive. I was onboard with drafting Jrue because I thought he was a good home-run swing at pick #17. But I also felt Lawson would have been a good value pick there.

2. The issue I rose above was that some posters here were "anti-Jrue" from the start to where you were looking for evidence that he was a failure to make your pro-Lawson position seem stronger. I believe you were amongst that crew, but I could be wrong. That approach no longer works now that Jrue is establishing himself.

I see the same pattern starting with Turner. The anti-Turner rational may have different reasons and no one knows if he ultimately will succeed or fail- but the same desire to celebrate every mis-step by the player in order to point out how your preferred pick comes from the same playbook. And it is not terribly conducive to conversation.


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tk76 reply to tk76 on Oct 21 at 10:51
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For the record, I am a fan of Cousins, Favors and Turner. I think they all could be very good, near All-Star players. Overall, I think this draft class was a bit weak, and I don't expect any superstars. I was fine with the Turner pick because the majority of scouts I read saw him as having the best future of the 3, and I am against picking for need when you stink.

But going in I did not expect the #2 pick to likely end up becoming 2nd best player in the class... because that rarely happens when you pick #2. Sort of like how Hakeem was not a "bust" at #1 overall, just because MJ was picked later and turned out to be even better. The bust was Bowie, who was picked in between them.

So if Turner becomes a near All-star fixture for the Sixers then he was a good pick- even if someone you strongly wanted ends up better. You can always state "I was smarter than Stefanski" :) But there is no reason right now to celebrate in every early struggle of the current Sixers #2 pick- it comes off in a poor way.

Its fine to talk about Turner's struggles and discuss whether he can overcome them. But it should not be part of some gloating I'm smarter than you type of rhetoric.

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Oct 21 at 19:50
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Interpretation can sometimes be a thing of beauty - or downright ugly.

I beg you to point out a specific portion of my original post that can even remotely be construed as "celebrating" this kid's struggles or "gloating" that I'm smarter than anyone else.

You stated that it's fine to talk about Turner's struggles and discuss them. Is that not what was done in my post?

Or is it something else? That others disagree with my long-standing opinion dating back to early this past winter about this kid before he even sniffed becoming a Sixer? Differing viewpoints now equal muted expression?

It is often mentioned here and other places that Turner 'may' become this borderline All-Star, and it goes without ridicule or scrutinization by most, and especially by myself. So when I or others mention that he may not pan out as most would hope, then that is to be ridiculed or construed as gloating or celebrating one's current failures?

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speekeasy reply to Brian on Oct 21 at 11:09
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"Well, I wasn't there, but probably sometime in late August, 1989."

-Thanks for that. Made reading the whole comment section worth it.

Let's just cut him now then.

Where to begin?

Ty Lawson and Evan Turner are different players. That's why there are different opinions of them. The fact that they're both 22 is not a very good basis for saying they're equivalent.

I can think of 2 things he does very well - handle the ball and rebound. He also penetrates very well, but at the NBA level, he's probably not much better than average right now.

Are you saying that it's a consensus that Turner is going to be a backup pg for his entire career? Sounds like a consensus of 1 to me.

Yes, everybody's a role player. LeBron James' role is to be the best player in history. What's your point?

Unfortunately I had a chance to see Turner up close tonight. He looked absolutely frightened out there on the court. Despite the fact that he should've been the best player on the court (playing w/ 2nd and 3rd team most of the night), he was super passive. He literally looked like the kid that gets picked last in a pickup game and doesn't feel like he belongs on the floor. He's a mental wreck!

Derek & Tom, what were your views? I'm not as worried about his talent as I am with his mind!

He takes time to adjust. He did so his freshman year at Ohio State, and I see a lot of the same things now. He's deferring to a fault. I thought he got a lot of separation tonight, but seemed almost determined to use it only to get others shots.

I wouldn't worry about his mentality long term. He's going to defer now, I don't think he will long term, though.

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Tom Moore reply to Derek Bodner on Oct 21 at 0:24
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He's not aggressively looking for his shot. Fans are yelling, 'Shoot, shoot,' every time he touches the ball. He said he's always been a slow starter, which continues to be the case.

Expect the starting lineup Wednesday to be Holiday, Iguodala, Kapono, Brand and Hawes (if he's healthy).

I feel ambivalent about this - but I spent some time reading the various prospects twitter-ings both before and after the draft to get a feel for what they were about in their head based on their relatively unguarded interactions with peers.

My take on Turner is that, to a much greater extent than the other rookies, he wishes he was still at Ohio State having his senior year there. He doesn't seem to make social connections easily, and doesn't yet have much chemistry with his Sixer teammates. On top of that, he's just not the sharpest tool in the kit. These observations tend to support the idea that he may take some time to come around.

FWIW, I think Cousins is more intelligent than the average NBA player, forms connections very easily with his peers, and is basically a good soul.

I agree, except about the intelligence part. If you mean that he's below average, I think you're wrong. If you simply mean that he's not well above average, I don't know if that's true. I've heard him speak a little. He's got that little speech impediment which dates from his childhood. Lots of smart people have speech impediments.

We've known all this about Turner. He barely made his high school team, then went on to be a Division 1 recruit, which is a pretty exclusive club. He was nothing much as a freshman, but 2 years later he was Player of the Year. He's not your typical player. I'm not saying he won't be a disappointment, but I don't think we have enough to go on. You also have to consider the fact that he's on a pretty disorganized team and he's trying like hell to do the right thing on the court.

NBA people are very quick to judge players. It's true that most great players are damn good from the get go, but not all. Walton, Ewing, Dirk, KG, Kobe - none of them had particularly good rookie years. Alex English didn't establish himself until his 4th year, now he's in the Hall.

But everybody's different. We can only hope. I have to admit that I'm already wishing the Sixers had taken Cousins.

What did you think of the starting 5 tonight Brian? I thought they looked really good. Good balance, good defense, good rebounding. Albeit against the Knicks 2nd unit. Anything to take away from it or just a good game against a poor team?

It looks like MSG is going to replay the game at 1 a.m. After I watch I'll have some thoughts.

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deepsixersuede on Oct 21 at 0:21
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Kapono is looking very Korverish; wouldn't it be funny if he gets resigned and Thad and Spencer let go?

Derek, would you take a shot on Danny Green instead of Flynn? Could he be a future rotation guy?

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deepsixersuede reply to deepsixersuede on Oct 21 at 0:24
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I meant Quinn, sorry.

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Tom Moore on Oct 21 at 0:24
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Lou Williams (13.4 points) led the Sixers in preseason scoring. Iguodala (12.3), Holiday (11.6) and Brand (10.7) also averaged in double figures.

Holiday (6.4) and Turner (5.9) were the leading rebounders.

Williams (50 percent, 8-for-16) and Iguodala (50 percent, 5-for-10) were the top 3-point shooters.

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deepsixersuede reply to Tom Moore on Oct 21 at 0:27
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Tom, what were Elton's final numbers? Thanks for all your updates.

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Tom Moore reply to deepsixersuede on Oct 21 at 9:35
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Brand: 10.7 points, 5.7 rebounds, 43.3 percent FG, 64.5 percent FT, 6 blocks, 4 assists, 8 turnovers in 8 games.

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Tom Moore reply to Tom Moore on Oct 21 at 9:36
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Sorry: Brand was in 6 games.

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Statman on Oct 21 at 0:44
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Here are my thoughts on the game (I'm writing partially to take my thoughts off the Phillies):

* I thought this starting lineup looked like some semblance of a basketball team. Battie gave the Sixers some much-needed inside presence, turning the clock back a few years. But I agree that he's an injury waiting to happen.
* Kapono had one of those games where his shooting was a serious weapon. But it should be pointed out that the Knicks' scrubs did nothing to punish him on D. In fact, Kapono's counterpart, Bill Walker, spent the game tossing up ridiculous 3's from 28 feet. Somehow, I doubt that Miami will be so charitable should the Sixers decide to start Kapono next Wednesday.
* Speaking of ridiculous 3-pointers, I think we finally found out how this Sixer team can play good defense: convince the other team to do nothing but shoot jumpers. The Knicks' scrubs were just pathetic in the 3rd quarter.
* Iguodala looks like he turned it on for the last two games of the preseason. I'd say he is the least of the Sixers' worries. By the way, he finished 5-10 on 3's in the preseason, after finishing last year 18-36. But I'm sure some of the haters will still say he should never shoot a 3. (There was one play of his I didn't like, where he had the chance to drive baseline but instead pulled up for an 18-footer. Still, a solid all-around game.)
* Thad did his best Jason Smith impression, running around like a chicken with his head cut off. He officially takes over from Iguodala the title of "worst-looking jump shot on the team." But I give him credit for several hustle plays.
* I'm wondering how patient the Philly fans are going to be with Turner. He made one great move to get in the lane (I think it was a 360 spin move), but instead of shooting his in-between jumper, he tossed it backward to two Knicks streaking the other way. It also looked like he was definitely playing backup PG when running with Lou (who had another nice game, by the way).
* Play of the game: Jrue's drive through the entire Knick team and finish with the monster left-handed dunk. Wouldn't be in Iguodala's top ten, but it was worth a second look on the DVR.

If nothing else, this game at least gets the Sixers into a positive frame of mind heading into the season. We'll see how long that lasts ...

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Tom Moore on Oct 21 at 9:37
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Jrue Holiday on his thunderous left-handed dunk in the third quarter Wednesday: "I saw an opening and I saw a big man, so I tried to quick-dunk it. I guess I dunked it quick enough."

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Tom Moore on Oct 21 at 10:01
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Williams (8-for-16), Iguodala (5-for-10) and Kapono (9-for-22) went 22-for-48 behind the arc; the other Sixers were 13-for-70, with Holiday 6-for-23, Nocioni 4-for-14, Meeks 1-for-13, Brackins 1-for-9 and Young 1-for-8.

and I still read double-digit comments about how Iguodala shot too many threes.

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Rob_STC reply to Brian on Oct 21 at 10:17
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Brian,

Iguodala's has made a conscious effort not to shoot too many threes. 50 % and 10 3's in 6 games I would say is great. I would say he knows his role on this team and is doing what Collins wants him to do.

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Ryan F reply to Brian on Oct 21 at 10:24
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All the 3's I've seen him take, he has had no choice but to. When someone kicks you the ball and you're wide open. you have to take that shot.

Philadelphia fans will always find something to nag about.

What is people take on Kapono earning a starting spot?

IMO he actually did earn it, because he proved ion the floor to be the only player that could spread the floor by keeping the defense honest out to the 3 pt line. Obviously he too 1 dimensional to me a long term answer as a starter... but if his presence on the floor helps the other players succeed and develop then its hard top argue against it.

My only real concern is minutes. There already was a crunch in terms of wing minutes. Giving Kapono 20 minutes as a token starter makes it worse. I wish he would just be given Nocioni's allotment, but more likely it means less burn for Turner. And IMO the more minutes Turner gets the faster he'll acclimate to the NBA game (and if not, the sooner we will know for sure.)


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