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Game 8 Thread: PHI @ OKC

I'm feeling a win tonight... Call me crazy

Crazy

I think Ibaka is the better player, but this does sap them of some depth.

Good thing they are playing a team with very little depth :)

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Joe reply to GoSixers on Nov 10 at 20:01
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I think Collison is much better than Green, personally. I think the Green injury really hurts the Sixers.

I've noticed this place has become a tad optimistic since Sundays win.

Jrue's play and Collins' subtle adjustments have me feeling better about the short-term. I'd feel a whole lot better if Collins would make a not-so-subtle move, getting Hawes out of the starting lineup and Turner into it (when Iguodala gets back).

Hey, i still think they'll end up 2-9 but they seem to be PLAYING better basketball..collins still has his head up his ass regarding the playing time of certain players, but he's getting better

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bebopdeluxe on Nov 10 at 19:12
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Fagan's blog is quoting Chris Broussard of ESPN who is saying that the Hornets have asked about Iguodala...and that the Sixers have actually received many inquiries about him.

Interesting.

I don't know why, he's such a terrible player.

I'm curios to hear what the sixers are saying. Obiviously a GM calls up and says so how about this Iguodala fella, I'm curios what the Sixers say back like, how about your first round draft pick and tht rookie you took in the top 5 two years ago and match Iguodala with expiring contracts, and you got a deal

It would be interesting to listen in on one of these phone calls. Probably more interesting to hear the reaction in Sacramento when Stefanski agreed to the Dalembert trade.

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Tray reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 19:53
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I suppose he's as good a fourth scorer as any. Seriously though, if Ariza's worth Darren Collison, we could get a nice offer one of these days.

This is going on my Christmas list.

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Jason reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 19:48
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"The toaster will not hold a regular sized piece of bread, about 20 percent of the bread sticks out of the top. That was bad enough, but the logo gets burned onto the bread and the toast has a burned spot in the middle, even on a normal setting! So a raw top of toast, a normal bottom and a terrible burned middle."


Now the Sixers can ruin your breakfast as well.

At least the toast doesn't have a picture of Brand's face on it. That would be depressing.

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T McL reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 20:03
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Dear god who spends money on this stuff? Maybe I'm just cheap but this seems insane to me

Salt of the earth, common folk, you know...

I wonder if Brackins gets any burn.

I'm getting the Philly feed on League Pass, thankfully.

The Rockets are losing the Wiz. Morey is such a freaking genius.

Yao hurt

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see Spencer Hawes trot out to center court for the jump ball.

Zumoff is having some problems with his mic.

Interested to see how the Thunder look. Haven't seen much of them this year with their slow start.

They've been terrible defensively.

Btw, against their starting lineup, is there any reason not to double Durant and get the ball out of his hands?

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 20:13
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Westbrook scares me attacking the rim strong against our bigs.

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Joe reply to Rich on Nov 10 at 20:15
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Westbrook is one guy I'm not worried about.

Every other starter? Yeah, pretty much.

Hawes can't even dunk a ball he was spoon fed.

Jesus, how many people is Durant going to embrace before the game?

If you sit in the front row, you get a high five.

Turner is just a really good rebounder.

Come on hawes man

Sloppy offensive possession to start things. Nocioni long two on the second. Not a good start. (mullet made the shot)

Westbrook cannot post Jrue.

Snow just said, and I quote: "Spencer Hawes, great defensively."

Durant doesn't like physical defenders, Artest ate him up in the playoffs. Mullet isn't a good defender, but he's physical.

that was a nice play to spring Brand for that short jumper. He set a solid screen for Turner (who is having problems shaking Thabo).

Hawes was very ball friendly there.

The pass into the first row :)

Turner and Mullet both run away from Durant. Wonderful.

Jrue shooting the tech. It was Turner last game.

EB should be able to eat Nenad alive. He's a terrible defender.

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 20:21
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What does that say about Ibaka if he's not on him?

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Joe reply to Rich on Nov 10 at 20:22
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What he is a better help defender than on the ball?

That's the conclusion I'd draw, I guess. Let Ibaka freelance. Not what I'd do, though.

Atta boy, Jrue.

Spencer has too many balls in his hands, imo.

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Joe reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 20:27
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LOL Hawes.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:22
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Good penetrate and dish, Jrue.

No defense whatsoever in this game.

Sweet give and go from Jrue to ET!

Jrue Holiday. Resident Wizard.

Jrue is playing an unbelievable point these past five games now. Pure is the only way to describe it. Awesome finish by Turner on that last play.

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T McL reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 20:25
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zone

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:26
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Dag, he's running a semblance of a 3-2 zone.

Here's that zone. It'd be much more effective if Hawes wasn't on the floor.

jesus christ

Contested three by Hawes ends the Sixers run. At least he got the hook.

Speezy in for Hawes. Looks like Collins has been happy with his play.

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T McL reply to Rich on Nov 10 at 20:30
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I think E Snow took too much vicodin before this game. I literally cannot understand anything he is saying

Greatest pass Speights will ever throw.

Holy Shit! What a sick pass by Speights.

Alright, Collins. Let's draw something up for a good look here. Man, I can't believe Speights had his head up like that. Great play.

Speights earned these minutes, by the way. He's been very good the past couple games in every way he's been crappy his entire career.

Damnit, Lou for Jrue.

Ugh. Mullet fouls Harden on a 20-footer.

God, the Mullet is tough.

Nice work, EB.

Aldrich looks like a stiff to me, by the way.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:36
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Aldrich looks to have toned up some.

EB is a man possessed.

Man really good ball movement by the thunder there... Why is Lou bringing up the ball..

Turner's at the three, I guess.

Lou, Meeks, ET, TY and SP8s now.

That was complete bullshit. Aldrich ran into Durant, not Meeks.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:37
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Ugh, that's 3 turnovers by Brand I've counted

4, according to ESPN.

God damnit Meeks, pick up the ball.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:40
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He didn't knock it down, but Lou killing them with the pump/head fakes twice.

All you need to do as a defender is not foul him on those. They've done a good job at that. If you don't leave your feet, he's basically useless after the pump.

Sixers down by four after one, 28-32. I believe OKC ended the quarter on a 7-0 run.

It's good Durants not going inside too much. If he does these stupid refs will probably give him every whistle.

Good charge Speights, Haeden was going way too slow to take that all the way to the rim unchallenged.

Speights draws the charge!

I finally opened up my League Pass on this thing. For some reason I always get Zumoff on League Pass broadcasts of Sixers games. My least favorite announcer in the league.

Come on, hit the freebies. Can't give points away and expect to beat teams that are better than you.

That might have been Jrue's first, but these turnovers have to stop for this team. They are all unforced, dribbling into traffic.

He's got 2 now. They gave him one on that Speights lob too.

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 20:53
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Team has 9, yikes. They are all bad ones too, overdribbling for the most part.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:51
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We need a TO asap

Collins got it. Bad play by Jrue to force that alley-oop. Settle down and get a good look there.

wow i thought it was a stereotype but i've seen at least 5 jean shirts in the okc crowd.

There we go. Lou running some offense.

Shit. Come on, Jrue.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:55
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Dammit Jrue. They are just going too fast in all aspects.

He needs to settle down after he makes a TO, don't compound it.

Great feed to TY on the next possession, though.

If Thad can't guard Sefalosha, who can he guard?

Somoene woke up Hawes for the rare second appearance in the first half.

Turner looking to score tonight.

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johnrosz reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 20:59
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but, but...he can't play off the ball...

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 20:58
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Jrue has been getting to the rim at will all night, he just needs to look and attempt to draw contact on those few he has missed.

Such a good PG matchup so far. Jrue's been playing great, finding everyone. And Westbrook is so fast for his size it's amazing.

How about mixing in a stop or two?

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:02
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Turner got it on KD. Regardless of what you want to say about ET, the guy is a gamer.

Way to go strong, Jrue.

Bad possession there. Turner's doing a good job on Durant.

Durant is like 6 inches taller than Turner. 6'9" my ass.

Hawes is helpless out there. It's really sad.

That defensive play by Jrue was awesome. Saw KD wanted the alley oop and engulfed Westbrook's try for the lob.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:07
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Awww.....Hawes with the spin move and hook! Watch out!

I'm haunted by that sissy hook. I see it every time I close my eyes.

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bebopdeluxe on Nov 10 at 21:09
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"KYP - know your personnel..."

WAY too much Mark Jackson in ESnow's toolbag.

Lou is 1/6. The rest of the team is 16/27.

Jrue to the line 7 times in the first half.

Love to see Jrue get the double double in the first half

Love to see Lou not on the court ever

Sissy hook.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:14
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haha

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:13
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Hawes with the hook again. On Ibaka. He's the man, I'm telling you....

Jesus, Hawes has been pretty good offensively. That's better that usual when he's terrible everywhere.

What? How was that a walk?

Shit, that was a killer turnover.

Come on, finish this half strong.

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Court_visioN on Nov 10 at 21:15
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interesting: Spencer Hawes with the highest +/- on the team so far.

And yet not any more

Nice board, Hawes.

Wow, Hawes.

Hawes tried to rebound with his face.

Who is Collins going to get a shot for here? I'd go with some kind of penetration from Jrue for a kick to Turner.

Yeah, not a big fan of Nocioni driving against two guys as the play out of the timeout.

That's a killer sequence. The whole team did a crappy job of transition defense there.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:19
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Man, not a good finish in the last minute to this quarter. Still in it though.

Terrible, terrible finish to the half. Sixers could've tied it up on that play Jrue got whistled for the travel. Instead, down by 8 at the half, 51-59.

It's going to take a better second half from Jrue and ET to pull this one out. Cut out the turnovers.

Jrue had 12 pts, 8 assists, 2 boards, 2 steals but 4 TOs in the first half.

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Rich reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:25
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One BS TO, and two unforced mistakes.. He really could have one TO. One disturbing trend that I'm noticing from Jrue is to sprint the ball up the floor after the other guys go on a 6-0 run or so. He did it trying to throw the oop to Speights when it wasn't there.

Wall has another triple-double (18, 10, 12, 5 steals, 1 turnover); Utah used a 26-5 run to get back into a game in which they trailed by 17. This a night after last night's heroics. Millsap has 21 on 12 shots.

What do you think of Ibaka? He seems pretty legit, like he can do a bit of everything.

He looks like a raw athletic player who can shoot jumpers, rebound, and block shots.

I mean not a ton to that but pretty cool little mixture there. He doesn't look like he should ever have the ball in his hands, though, unless he is getting rid of it in 1-2 seconds, but there isn't much wrong with that.

Does 17 points on 9 shots bother anyone else when a guy has 8 free throw attempts?

I mean, it is 17 points on more like 12-13 shots right?

17 on 12 is pretty good, too.

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Joe reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:37
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Yeah, I guess the other extremes bother me more.

PPS is probably better than FG%, though so I shouldn't complain much I guess.

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Tray reply to Joe on Nov 10 at 21:36
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I agree.

Ugh, 3 on Jrue. Cannot pick up his fourth anytime soon...and Westbrook knows it. Switch Jrue onto Thabo now and put ET on Westbrook.

F me. Did Jrue pick up his fourth? Great friggin announcing.

Damnit Jrue, that 3rd foul is a killer. Ugh, that;s four.

By the way, OKC did switch Ibaka onto Brand, and EB can't even get the entry passes now.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:41
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Good look Lou. Let's go. Get back in this before the TV timeout. Ugh, Westbrook lighting it up.

Finally got the ball to EB in the post. Went down to the corner for an easier entry pass.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:44
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OK, we need some frequent stops. Battie time? 6 and change left in the 3rd?

Maybe. Last time it was 3:44 left in the third.

Especially because Krstic and Ibaka have done a lot of the damage in this quarter.

Pop quiz:

Without checking the box score, who can tell me who has the second-most assists on the Sixers tonight?

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:47
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Lou?

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Joe reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:49
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I can't think of an assist besides a Jrue one. Nocioni?

Nope.

Mr. Speights, with 2.

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Alvin reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:53
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Oh shit.

Yep, there's Battie. Fouling for the and 1 (he did that a couple times against the Knicks, too).

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:47
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Come on Battie, you have to foul hard there or at least not let him get the shot off.

This is not Lou's finest hour.

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Joe reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 21:51
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Elton demanding the ball from Lou...

Lou ignored him the second time, when EB had the rook on him.

Lou is shooting them right out of this game.

Can't buy a freaking stop.

Missing their two best defenders.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:51
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This could get out of hand. They have to get this around 8-9 before the quarter ends to have a shot, if then.

Lou's killing us. Doesn't know when its time to pass the damn ball.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:53
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Good job, just keep getting to the line. And make them please.

Alright, this should cut it down to single digits, keep it there heading into the fourth and then hope Jrue can bring you back.

Yes, I'd much rather have Meeks than Bad Lou out there for sure.

Ugh. Maybe not. Meeks splits a pair. Looks like Lou's hurt, probably shoulder tendinitis from all the pump fakes.

It's turner's time to take over now.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 21:57
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Still no movement on offense with Lou on the bench.

Shots should be going to Turner and Brand. Meeks can't hit the broad side of a barn and they keep setting him up for shots.

That three would've been big, if he'd (Turner, that is) hit it.

I think Meeks has worn out his welcome. Jrue getting 4 was really a turning point.

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eddies' heady's reply to Rich on Nov 10 at 22:03
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Don't give up on him yet. the kid hasn't played in forever. His stroke and rhythm should start to come around. (Meeks that is)

This is about the time, when the team can't score, that I'd hope Turner would realise that's what we need him to do.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:00
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Come on Thad, draw the contact and stop shying away from it.

Meeks 3

Horrible possession. Turner has to take the ball to the basket at some point...right?

He's been really passive ever since Jrue went out. At this point, I think Turner's playing BETTER with Jrue when he's playing off the ball because he's not as worried about running the offense.

Good job dribbling out the quarter.

Lovely possession to end the quarter. Sixers down by 11 at the end the of the third, 74-85. 85 points allowed in three quarters...yikes.

Free steal for Elton Brand officially ends the quarter.

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Joe reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:03
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And Court_Vizion, aka Kenny, continues laughing to the bank in the DF fantasy league.

Well, the bigs stopped hurting us when Battie came in, so that worked. Need someone to slow down the smalls now.

Jrue, Turner, Nocioni, Brand, Battie. Start the quarter with them, hopefully get this lead down to about 6 by the halfway point of the third, then anything can happen.

Collins should not wait to get Jrue back in there, it could be 20 if you try to steal a couple minutes here.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:04
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If they're aren't going to get any stops, they have to get in the penalty early here.

Hello Amare and welcome to the 2010-11 NBA season...

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:05
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Shit, Jrue. COme on

5th TO for Jrue. Right thought, bad execution.

Come on, you're getting stops. Let's go!

There you go, Jrue. There you go. All the way to the hole.

5-point game.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:08
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Yeah, Jrue, bring this baby home. You've got to put them on your back.

Gotta say, Jrue and ET are looking pretty good together.

Did they call that on Jrue? Fucking bullshit.

I like Meeks being out there. Jrue/Meeks/Turner/Brand/Battie? Or Jrue/Turner/Nocioni/Brand/Battie?

Jrue v Westbrook is gonna be so fun for many years to come. :)

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:11
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Well, ballgame, Jrue with his fifth.

Going small, Battie out. Deficit back to 9. Someone needs to step up in Jrue's absence.

Give the fucking ball to Brand, damnit.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:14
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agree

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Alvin reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:15
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Oh yes, that too.

It's okay Turner, keep going at them.

When do they bring Jrue back in? 6 minutes to go? 5? 4?

Of course the calls would go against the sixers as soon as they got back in the game. :(

Bring Jure back in, put him off the ball on the defensive side, let Jure or Jodie check Westbrook and let Jrue run the offense. We need him in there in order to have any chance at all.

Turner has to attack the basket more.

Brand wants it, anyone else?

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:17
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Jodie! For 3!

Nocioni says... NOT IN MY HOUSE!! on that pass...

Jrue's back in, guarding Harden. Good decision. Let's go Jrue.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:19
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He was on Westbrook that time, and they get a lob. ubh

Yup, he's back on Westbrook. That's a huge mistake.

Look at Nocioni with the ups!

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:20
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Come on Doug, you've got to get Jrue off the ball on Westbrook. He can't guard him hardly when he doesn't have 5 fouls.

Is that Jodie Meeks or is that Superma.... I mean Super Willie Green.

Pretty, pretty play. Come on, half dozen is nothing.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:22
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Ohhh...good left=handed pass from Jrue to Thad.

Meeks for 3! Rich, what you say?

JODIAC

JODIE!!!!!!!!! And Jrue looking for him on the break! Three-point game. Come the fuck on. Finish this off.

Kapono is gone for good now?

I'll be honest... my Sixers team projections were based on Kapono and Hawes playing over 40 minutes. If those 40 minutes can be moderately productive instead of a complete drain, they may win 30 games.

Jrue looking cool, calm and collected now.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:25
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Come on guys, play the passing lanes and close off the lane. Bring this win home! Oh, and don't settle for jumpers. Go to the hole and get to the line.

Is there any reason in particular that Durant isn't trying to "make plays" or "take the game over"?

Don't let them score with this 1 second left on the SC. Watch the lob on the inbounds.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:26
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Mutha.......................

Told you the lob was coming. Ugly.

Shit. Come on. Plenty of time. Don't compound it.

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bebopdeluxe on Nov 10 at 22:28
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I love, love, LOVE Jrue...but he's gotta tighten up on some of those thread-the-needle passes in traffic.

Huge defensive play by Thad. What do you go for here? Jrue penetration, kick to Meeks? Brand in the post?

Not sure I trust Jrue's decision making right now. He's really struggling in the second half.

No better option. Ball has to be in his hands.

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ELF reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:50
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C'mon, Jrue is playing PG for half a season over the last 2 years..
ET needs to add quickness to his offensive game, at the defensive side it looks he is quicker, like going for rebounds. Maybe he is still unsure about what to do to go by NBA defenders, it will take some time.

How Iggy would look with this improved team play ?

Another fucking Nocioni drive out of a timeout? He can't be drawing that garbage up, I refuse to believe it.

No idea how that shot went down.

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Joe reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:33
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I think the whole 6-10 with 7-2 wingspan is what makes it somewhat possible.

Timeout. Let's see what kind of play we can draw up for Nocioni.

Why did they call that timeout? Durant had the ball...

Fuck man, if you're giving the foul, why put Holiday on the damned ball, and why isn't someone else running out there to give the foul?

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:37
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Was thinking the same thing as soon as E Snow said it.

ditto

Also, why did Jrue waste the 5 seconds?

Didn't want to give his sixth, I think.

Love the missed free throws.

Well, I think that seals it for Meeks. More than 5 TOs is an automatic DQ.

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eddies' heady's reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:41
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Say what?

Meeks has 1 TO...

I think he was saying it seals it for Jrue... he will lose minutes to Meeks.

That is how I took it.

I was saying Jrue is disqualified by his 6 turnovers.

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Joe reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:44
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Player of the game, oh. Got it.

That whole statement was disjointed, let me try again.

That seals the player of the game for Meeks. Jrue is disqualified because he had five or more turnovers.

Good effort to get back in it. Just got torched by westbrook too many times.

103-109 final. Valiant effort, just couldn't get over the hump. Good showing w/out Iguodala, too many turnovers, too many FTs for OKC.

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Tray reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 22:49
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I think it's fair to say that we haven't exactly looked worse without Iguodala. We may even be playing better. This season he's looked a little disinterested to me, and with him out Turner plays more and plays more of an active role. I also have a vague sense that he just seems a little out of sorts among our younger players, but I'd have to watch more closely to articulate why I feel that's the case.

I'd have to watch more closely to articulate why I feel that's the case.

I can help you out, you just don't like the guy, that's the reason.

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Tray reply to Brian on Nov 10 at 23:23
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Yeah, he's probably the most boring player in the NBA to me in spite of being a perfectly adequate top 30ish player in the league (doesn't mean I don't like him, he's just dull), but that's not actually why. I think it's more that on offense I don't quite get where he fits anymore. Do you give him his 15 shots? I'm not sure why you still do, Holiday and Turner and Lou are more dynamic and creative options and generally better shooters. Does he become more of a third/fourth option? That feels awkward; he's supposed to be our best player. There's just something stylistically uneasy about seeing him take a back seat to our erratic 20-year-old point guard.

Well, what can we say. I thought we gave a good effort. Of course, has Jrue not been in foul trouble things could've been different. But, Jrue and ET did look good together in the court. And Meeks seems to have established himself in this team. Durant and Westbrook are a tough matchup for everyone.

Let the auctioning of Iggy and Lou begin.

I love the fact that this team gives everyone a go, apart from the Indiana loss we've been in every game this season. Granted there are stupid plays/decisions and many things that annoy us, but can't complain much about the effort so far, even though the record reads 2-6 now.

i don't care if they lose every game. This team's infinitely more fun to watch than last year's.

Agreed.

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Joe reply to Bob on Nov 10 at 22:50
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They are playing better than their record. That is partially why you feel that way IMO.

If they turn into a 25 win team, it isn't going to look anything like the first 10 games of this year.

May as well enjoy it while it lasts.

tough to win when your opponent goes 35 for 37 at the line.

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eddies' heady's on Nov 10 at 22:50
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With Dre out, Lou also out with the injury, and Jrue on the bench in foul trouble, it showed me how I've sort of felt about Turner. He's just too ordinary as an offensive player. He does nothing to stand out. He can't shoot threes. He can't necessarily get to the rim at will ala Jrue. He can't consistently break his man down off the dribble. He really doesn't create space to get his own shot. He's just basically out there initiating sets.

Just really disappointing to see some of these previous concerns sort of come to fruition.

If you are a troll, you are really getting to me with your nonsense. Well done.

If you are serious, I really just see the game in a completely different way.

I think Turner was a good NBA player tonight.

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eddies' heady's reply to Joe on Nov 10 at 23:14
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Please tell me why a dissenting opinion deserves a doling out of ridicule. You felt he was good tonight. Fine. I'm not tearing you down or saying you're trolling.

I've been a fan of this team for around 33 years and if I have expectations/reservations of a player picked that high, then I reserve the right to be concerned or disappointed.

I desperately wanted a centerpiece or #1 option with the luck dumped in our lap at the lottery. Because this guy obviously isn't going to be either at this level, there's not a thing wrong with me expressing it, popular or unpopular.

Everything in the original post is very valid. If it isn't, then why don't you make an argument against it. The not going along with the status quo around here is rather baffling at times. If I feel a certain way about a player, I see no wrong in sharing it. If you disagree, cool, but why mock or ridicule if you don't?

Why is it OK to critique the Willie Green's and Spencer Hawes' of the team, but not the local favorites, Jrue or Evan or Andre?

I agree that I shouldn't have said "nonsense" that was a bit much.

I don't think much after that is offensive, though.

As for an actual argument, when someone only talks about scoring and scoring and scoring... I don't think you are going to have much reception to my argument that efficiency using possessions and gaining additional possessions is what actually matters and is actually what makes great players great. And Turner? He is really good at that for a guy who doesn't shoot 3s and doesn't shoot for an especially greta percentage.

Turner... has a subtle and cerebral sort of game. Subtle and cerebral enough, I think, to be an 18 ppg scorer in this league, and to be kind of entertaining doing it, which frankly matters to me more than exactly how good he is. I'm more excited about him now than when people were seriously asking whether he might be better than Wall and touting him as Mr. Collegial Paragon of Virtue.

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bebopdeluxe reply to eddies' heady's on Nov 11 at 0:10
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I've been a fan since 9-73...so I've watched a LOT of Sixers basketball - both good and bad.

Evan Turner - in only his 8th NBA game - has shown me that he had a lot of skill, as well as a good sense of the game and the ability (like most great athletes) to calibrate his skill to the situation. My sense is the more experience he gets, the better he will perform - particularly in the "guts" of the game.

He also seems to have some pretty big cojones - he WANTS to guard DWade and Durant at crunch time...and so far, he has acquitted himself pretty well for a rookie.

I don't know if you are being truly objective and honest in your assessment of Turner, or whether you are just a "playa-hater"...but there has been nothing in these 8 games that has suggested to me that Turner does not have the potential to be a dominant player in this league and a legit #1 scoring option for this team. To think that - after only 8 games - that you can be so declarative in your statements about him ("Because this guy obviously isn't going to be either - a centerpiece or #1 option - at this level")...

Wow.

That is arrogance at the jemagee level (and that is truly saying something).

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eddies' heady's reply to bebopdeluxe on Nov 11 at 0:30
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Please. Hard declarative opinions have never equaled arrogance. Arrogance revolves around self-importance and vituperative display of it.

My lingo is just from one objective angle - unpopular, but still objective and discernable.

Just like you say - nothing in these 8 games has suggested to you that Turner *does not* have the *potential* to be a dominant player in this league and a legit #1 scoring option for this team - well, nothing in these 8 games has suggested to me that he *does*.

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bebopdeluxe reply to eddies' heady's on Nov 11 at 8:06
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When you say that that Turner will "not" be a dominant player or #1 option (without a qualifier like "probably" or "likely"), that is a declarative statement.

When you start such a declarative statement with the word "obviously" (hey - it's as clear as day to me...are you too thick to get it?), THAT is arrogant.

He is a rookie in his second start at his 7th game..
and he doesnt possess killer athleticism to save his a$$
its acceptable those things happens..
His midrange game looked good today, its clear the longshot is not his forte

I see him just initiating sets when he's been bringing the ball up and playing the point. I think he's showing signs of playing very well when playing the 2. I think he's beginning to use screens, cuts, and curls to get a step on his man. I think he's coming along very well in terms of playing off the ball (which doesn't only include catch and shoot jumpers).

I disagree that he doesn't show anything exceptional offensively. I think his ability to finish at the rim is very good. I think his pull-up jumper is very good. I also think his first step, ballhandling, and change of pace/direction are good enough to be an 18-22 ppg scorer at this level, and think he's a very good passer who can capitalize on the attention he will eventually receive.

The key, right now, is the distance shot. He's not going to be able to utilize his first step (which is good, but not extraordinary) and change of pace if defenders are able to sag off of him, which they currently are able to. I think if he develops NBA 3 pt range, you'll see his dribble penetration game really open up. Without NBA 3 pt range, he doesn't have the insane athleticism to overcome defenders sagging off of him. I don't think you'll see the full Evan Turner offensively if he doesn't develop range.

I think it's a legitimate question whether he eventually becomes a good enough shooter to utilize all of his strengths. I don't think that means the rest of his strengths aren't legitimate, though.

The reason some people get on dissenting opinions is because people who disagree with the majority tend to beat the topic to death, which becomes trollish and antagonizing. I'm not arguing whether or not you do that, I'm just pointing out why I believe it irritates some.

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Nov 11 at 0:14
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I must ask: so if the minority of individuals dissenting continually read that a player will be this or that, mostly positive stuff - but still projectional, then is that considered trolling or antagonizing since continually saying it can be construed as beating it to death?

It sure isn't irritating to me to read differing viewpoints that aren't in line with mine. I'm seriously asking here - because if it's antagonizing, it sounds like an ego thing to me.

As for your outlook/opinion, the civility is greatly appreciated. The problem I have mostly is with your 2nd paragraph. You state what you feel are his strengths, but he doesn't assert himself much to show any of these things. Yeah, he can finish at the rim, but to me, only if he is already there wide open or on the break. I don't see him willfully get there off his dribble like Jrue can. His pull-up jumper is OK, but he can't consistently get it off on his own, or he doesn't try to or just can't.

The jury is definitely still out, but as of now I have to still disagree with you on the point of him showing anything exceptional offensively. I know the argument will be thrown out there that it is only his 8th game, but his passivity is just disheartening from a die-hard fan's standpoint.

Yeah, acclimation is to be expected, but this is a game he's played his whole life and 'dominate' is so far down the road it's not even in driving distance at this point.

My overall stance has to be taken into context of him being "that pick", "that high", fairly or unfairly. I wanted a game changer, but didn't see it in him pre-NBA (as you and I debated back in Jan. on here) and he hasn't done or shown anything to change my belief - yet, I hope.

Negative comments are more biting and antagonistic by nature than positive comments.

I definitely disagree about his ability to finish at the rim. I think very little, if any, have come on wide open, uncontested finishes. I'll watch every one of his attempts on Synergy tomorrow to check. I think he's shown himself to be a very ambidextrous finisher with very good body control and touch. He may not have created all these opportunities off his own dribble penetration, but we're debating the ability to finish.

I think if he ever develops a respectable shot from range, you'll see his dribble penetration game really open up. I think the other skills are there and that's the debilitating factor.

Also, I think you're making light of the adjustment. You say it's the game he's always played and dominated, but that's not necessarily true. He's been passive every jump in competition he's taken in his past. A struggle was to be expected. He's now averaging 10 pts, 6.2 rebounds and 2.4 assists in 28 minutes. Brandon Roy averaged 11.6 pts on 43% shooting in 34 minutes during November his rookie year. Wade 13 pts in 35 minutes his rookie season, on

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eddies' heady's reply to Derek Bodner on Nov 11 at 0:53
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I wasn't saying he dominated, I was using his own quote of what he said he can/will eventually do.

His numbers don't really affect me, it's more of how he fits into our current team.

Your next to last paragraph is a great summation of Andre Iguodala. I've always felt the lack of the outside shot/range has always hindered some of his other skills.

He's an interesting player to adjudicate, to say the least. But it's a good healthy debate which can be rare in these parts, the way critiquing is somehow construed as repugnance.

Andre Iguodala is a much better player than the average player drafted at #2 overall (or any spot other than #1 overall.) So what exactly are you saying? That because Igudoala was an absolute steal at @9 we should by default expect our #2 pick to be better? If Turner is as good an NBA palyer as Iguodala then they beat the curve.

I think they will be close. Turner will be a better and more efficient offensive weapon. Iguodala a better defender and more dynamic on the break. I also think Jrue will be about at that level.

I don't think Iguodala's ever really had the pull-up jumper or the touch around the rim Turner has. I've always felt those were two of his weaknesses. I don't really see them as being comparable half-court offensive players (outside of sharing the weakness from range).

Yeah, agree. Sorry for the confusion- I meant that they might turn out to be equal level players (a notch below true stars.) Not so much saying there games are completely comparable. Same with Jrue.

I'd say Rudy Gay and Granger are at that Iguodala level- even through their skill sets are different.

I was actually replying to eddie, who was talking about all Iguodala needing was the range on his jumpshot, to which I was replying that I believe Turner's a more advanced offensive player and Iguodala really never had Turner's strengths.

" I wanted a game changer"

I was born after the 1972 draft. In the 38 NBA drafts in my lifetime their have been 5 players drafted #2 overall who I'd call "game changer":

Isiah, Kid, Mourning. Durant and Payton.

Five in 38 years.

I contend that your expectations are not reasonable.

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eddies' heady's reply to tk76 on Nov 11 at 0:57
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Who was drafted #2 in the history of the draft has absolutely no bearing on my feelings or outlook of a particular player.

No one but myself can be the judge of the barometer of my expectations.

No, but I can judge based on the performance of #2 overall picks over the last 38 years whether or not your expectations are reasonable.

You could expect the stock market to gain 50% every year. That's your privileged. But others are free to show that your expectations are more pie in the sky than grounded in historical reality.

I agree the Sixers need a superstar. Getting the #2 overall pick gave them a better chance then say the #18 pick. But even at #2 you are looking at a less than 15% chance of getting a superstar. And that is just the facts.

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tk76 reply to tk76 on Nov 11 at 1:06
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And this is my current belief:

I do not expect any player drafted from #2 to #10 this last summer to be a franchise leading star for a winner. A true elite #1 type guy.

I could be wrong, but this past draft was not strong in terms of star talent.

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deepsixersuede reply to tk76 on Nov 11 at 2:04
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I am still not sure if we can win with an Iggy/Turner combo at the 3/2 but when Turner was picked I thought he couldn't be better than Iggy, but from what I have seen I think he will be now, and that is a positive to me. If he, Iggy and Jrue can all be top ten at their position we are on the right track.

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bebopdeluxe reply to tk76 on Nov 11 at 8:14
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Perfect.

Dude, you forgot Darko

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johnrosz on Nov 10 at 22:53
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Looked like Evan was gonna cry when he got hit in the mouth

Nocioni and Turner really didn't do a bad job at all on Durant. He basically used 27 possessions to get 31 points.

7/18 fine, 1-5 from downtown good. At a huge disadvantage 1-1 without help defense behind them. Not horribly upset with their D (particularly Turner's) tonight.

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deepsixersuede reply to Derek Bodner on Nov 11 at 2:13
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The G. Hill comparisons before the draft I didn't get; he was more of an athlete, but the smart way Turner plays reminds me of him. Eddies frustrations, to me, seem more about fit than level of player and in some ways I understand. A better version of B.Gordon, that puts up 23 a night may be more appealing but I will leave those worries to Collins and Thorn to figure out.

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bebopdeluxe reply to deepsixersuede on Nov 11 at 8:26
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If it is more an issue of "fit" than the player, then we still made the right call to take him...because I think that over the next year or two, Thorn's #1 job will be making these pieces "fit" better...and eventually Turner will "fit" a lot better.

I think our backcourt is set for years...and what a great feeling that is.

Thanks for hanging in there, guys. I'll have my wrap late tonight/tomorrow morning.

Props to Meeks. The kid comes to play.

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Alvin reply to tk76 on Nov 11 at 3:01
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I like Meeks' effort. I like to believe he's earned his minutes in the rotation.

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bebopdeluxe reply to Alvin on Nov 11 at 8:19
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Lou for Gortat.

Do it, Rod.

Did Otis Smith take stupid pills?


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